The Beginner's Guide to the NEW Master of Many Styles


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I put this breakdown of different style requirements together in case it helps. Obviously there are varying conditions depending on how far you go into the Styles' feat chains, but this list is meant to reflect the 'average' use of a Style. Feel free to reformat for the guide if you want to phrase things differently, but please credit if you do. (:

No attacking/wielding conditions
Archon Style
Dwarven Hatred Style
Grabbing Style
Kirin Style
Kobold Style
Kraken Style
Wolf Style

Must have one hand free
Crane Style
Snapping Turtle Style

Must have/expend uses of Elemental Fist
Djinni Style
Efreeti Style
Marid Style
Shaitan Style

Must have/expend uses of Stunning Fist
Dragon Style
Mantis Style

Must use a charge attack
Kitsune Style

Must use a charge attack to deal nonlethal damage
Cudgeler Style

Must use a bow, crossbow, or firearm
Empty Quiver Style
Overwatch Style

Must use 'Elven' weapons (longsword, rapier, or any melee weapon that has "elven" in its name)
Elven Battle Style

Must use 'Gnome' weapons and have available spell slot, spell of the illusion school, or a spell from the gnome magic racial trait
Illusive Gnome Style

Must use 'Orc' weapons and Bullying Blow feat
Orc Fury Style

Must use unarmed strikes
Boar Style
Dragon Style
Earth Child Style
Jabbing Style
Janni Style
Panther Style
Pummeling Style
Snake Style
Tiger Style

Wielding close fighter weapon group weapon with Weapon Focus feat
Outslug Style

Wielding Monk weapon or weapon with Weapon Focus feat
Ascetic Style

Wielding sling bullet ranged weapon
Slipslinger Style

Wielding weapon from the axes, hammers, or flails fighter weapon group, using it for a sunder attempt
Smashing Style

Wielding weapon from the heavy blades or light blades fighter weapon group
Swordplay Style

Wielding weapon from the polearm or spear fighter weapon groups
Spear Dancing Style

Wielding weapon from the thrown fighter weapon group
Startoss Style

A special note for Monkey Style, because it changes significantly with each step of the Style chain. No requirement > Unarmed Strike > Stunning Fist


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook Subscriber

I will certainly credit this! Thanks!


The guide should probably mention that taking more than 2~4 levels is pretty much a waste since Paizo crippled the archetype...

Scarab Sages

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The archetype was buffed because of the change to fuse styles, but wildcard feats should ignore prerequisites.

It's still stronger than it was before the errata for pure monks, it just really made the dip less attractive. Which was a good thing.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook Subscriber
Imbicatus wrote:

The archetype was buffed because of the change to fuse styles, but wildcard feats should ignore prerequisites.

It's still stronger than it was before the errata for pure monks, it just really made the dip less attractive. Which was a good thing.

MoMS would arguably be up to Tetori level with that adjustment. If there was the concern about being able to get things too early (say, Snake Fang at Level 6), they could say that you can't take a Feat until you would have been able to meet the prerequisites; you can't Wildcard to Snake Fang until Level 9, but you don't have to worry about the skill ranks.

With that in mind, if you're getting to the second and third levels of the Styles, it's still pretty viable, particularly when combined with something else.


Imbicatus wrote:
Scott Wilhelm wrote:
Imbicatus wrote:

The tengu attack routine is Unarmed Strike(kick)/Off-hand Unamred Strike(kick)/Claw/Claw/Bite.

It's -2/-2/-5/-5/-5, but it's still five attacks at first level.

Even if you are dealing with a GM who feels entitled to impose a -5 penalty, all you have to do is take Multiattack, knocking the -5 to a -2, and you are back in business.

If you are talking PFS, you can't take Multiattack normally, but you can take a level in Brawler and use Martial Flexibility to gain the Benefit of Multiattack, and you are back in business.

For certain builds, you'd want to do that anyway. For instance, if you have a Druidzilla character who turns into a Giant Octopus, all those Tentacle Attacks are already Secondary Natural Attacks. Adding some Manufactured Weapon Attacks (in the way that one does, when one is an octopus!) isn't going to make the Secondary Natural Attacks Tertiary.

In PFS you still can't use martial flexibility to gain multiattack, as it's not a legal feat. To use martial flexibility, you must have the book the feat appears in, and you cannot take feats from the Bestairy without it being specifically granted by another source.

Oh, I don't think that's true. You are allowed to take Feats from the Bestiary if allowed from another source. And with Martial Flexibility, you aren't even taking the Feat: you are only gaining the Benefit of the Feat for a limited time. Vis a vis Advanced Class Guide, the Additional Resources only says that Brawlers need to own the book that has the Feat in order to gain Martial Flexibility. I don't recall seeing any other restrictions on books they are allowed to use.

Meanwhile, Mark Seifter has made it very clear that it is inappropriate for you to debate the rules with me on an Advice thread. You should start a new thread in the Rules Forum if you want to debate this further.


Do you think Outslug Style stacks with Jabbing Dancer? Jabbing Dancer says you can "you can move 5 feet without provoking an attack of opportunity as long as you move to a space adjacent to the opponent you hit with the unarmed strike." But does that constitute a 5' step? Outslug Style triggers "when you take a 5-foot step."

If Jabbing Dancer triggers Outslug Style, how about the Circling Mongoose Feat?


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook Subscriber
Scott Wilhelm wrote:

Do you think Outslug Style stacks with Jabbing Dancer? Jabbing Dancer says you can "you can move 5 feet without provoking an attack of opportunity as long as you move to a space adjacent to the opponent you hit with the unarmed strike." But does that constitute a 5' step? Outslug Style triggers "when you take a 5-foot step."

If Jabbing Dancer triggers Outslug Style, how about the Circling Mongoose Feat?

I would not interpret them as stacking. A 5' Step is an official movement designation. Moving 5' is a distance you are going. I would not call them the same for stacking for these purposes.

That is not the same as saying there is not a synergy. If you value movement you can take a 5' step (activating Outslug Style), strike, move 5' because of Jabbing Dancer, strike, etc..

Just as there is a very specific wording difference between when an archetype says "<X> replaces <Y>" and "<X> modifies <Y>", I would say there is a difference between five feet of movement and a 5' step.


Yeah, IMO those don't stack. If a feat would say "Any time you move 5 feet" that would include all means of moving 5' (a 5-foot step, a move action to move 5 feet, a being subject to drag, reposition, foe throw, etc.), but Jabbing Dancer says you can move 5' without provoking an AoO whenever you hit with an unarmed attack, it doesn't say you can take a 5-foot step which is a special kind of thing. Had they intended for Jabbing Dancer to let you take a 5' step, they could have said "you may take a 5' step" and left out the bit about AoOs (since 5' Steps don't normally provoke, barring stuff like the pin down feat.) Since they explicitly specify "you don't provoke" they don't intend for Jabbing Dancer to let you take extra five-foot steps.

The set inclusion is backwards for those to synergize. If an ability said "whenever you move at least 5 feet" that would include both 5-foot steps and the movement you get from Jabbing dancer (as well as every other means of moving at least 5 feet). But "You can move 5-feet whenever [foo]" doesn't give you extra five-foot steps, and "whenever you take a 5-foot step" only includes the one you get as a free action.


@JAMRenaissance & PossibleCabbage,

I was afraid of that. Too bad.


Scott Wilhelm wrote:

@JAMRenaissance & PossibleCabbage,

I was afraid of that. Too bad.

So, how DO we get extra 5' steps?


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook Subscriber
Scott Wilhelm wrote:
Scott Wilhelm wrote:

@JAMRenaissance & PossibleCabbage,

I was afraid of that. Too bad.

So, how DO we get extra 5' steps?

Step Up / Following Step / Step Up and Strike chain.

Unfortunately, you play the Action Economy game, since Step Up is an Immediate action.

Also, based on the wording, I would say that Outslug Sprint and Following Step stack:

Outslug Sprint

Quote:


You can make quick, defensive movements.

Prerequisite(s): Int 13; Combat Expertise or brawler's cunning class feature; Lunge; Outslug Style; Outslug Weave; Weapon Focus with the chosen weapon.

Benefit(s): While using Outslug Style, you can move an additional 5 feet when making a 5-foot step.

Following Step

Quote:


You can repeatedly close the distance when foes try to move away, without impeding your normal movement.

Prerequisites: Dex 13, Step Up.

Benefit: When using the Step Up feat to follow an adjacent foe, you may move up to 10 feet. You may still take a 5-foot step during your next turn, and any movement you make using this feat does not subtract any distance from your movement during your next turn.

Normal: You can only take a 5-foot step to follow an opponent using Step Up.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook Subscriber

Does anyone know how to get the title of a thread changed?


I don't. You could just start a new thread with a new name and link it to this one.

What direction do you want to steer the discussion to?


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook Subscriber
Scott Wilhelm wrote:

I don't. You could just start a new thread with a new name and link it to this one.

What direction do you want to steer the discussion to?

I renamed the Guide "The Beginner's Guide to the NEW Master of Many Styles Monk", and I was feeling close to being finished at the time...

... he said, having finished doing a Table of Contents and realizing the analysis I haven't quite yet done.

For example, and I need to brain dump this here before I forget: In considering the thought that one could diminish some of the loss of Flurry of Blows, many of the maneuver-based styles (which the MoMS would be the best at) give free maneuver attempts. For example, with the combination of Cudgeler Sweep, Pummeling Bully, and Pummeling Charge, you are looking a two free trip attacks when you charge somebody assuming at least one of them is a non-lethal attack. I then thought about what would happen if you had the Wolf Style as your third Style, with Wolf Savage at the end...

Admittedly, I've made it explicit that this is NOT an Optimization Guide, but the realization of that combo (assuming it works; I haven't checked to see if you could easily get the Feats needed, but there are four prerequisite feats, sooo...) and just how powerful it would theoretically be was.. wow.

On a charge, you take a full attack. If any attack hits, you get a free trip or reposition. If you hit for non-lethal damage, you also get a free trip, at +2, which if successful forces a Fort Save or be stunned 1 round. Your attack's damage goes up a die for the round as long as your weapon doesn't leave your hand, which is hard to do if your weapon is your hand. If any trip you do succeeds, you can pick which space adjacent to you they fall in. And, finally, once someone is prone, if you ever do more than 10 points of damage with a unarmed strike, you can "savage" them as a Swift action, requiring a Fort Save or have the effects of Bestow Curse.

I'd call that the start to a decent Trip Monkey build.


Well, Snake and Boar Style feats let you treat your Unarmed Strikes as piercing weapons. Then you can take Improved Grapple and Hamatula Strike and score a free Grapple with every hit, and with say both Snake Fang and Panther Claw, that can be a lot of hits. Since you aren't Flurrying anyway, you should go ahead and wear Armor with Armor Spikes, so now every Grapple gives you 1d6 Armor Spike Damage.

The Orc angry feats let you intimidate with like every hit. If you take Shatter Defenses, then your opponents are also Flatfooted. So then you should take some levels in Ninja or Rogue and lock in some beautiful Sneak Attack Damage that also can benefit from Sap Adept and Knock out feats.

There is a thread called Songbird of Doom, which describes combining Monkey Style Feats and Mouser Swashbuckler Feats to score Sneak Attacking.

One problem I've seen with Panther Style feats is that a lot of the time when you are moving out of a Threatened square, it is because your opponent has Reach. And if you don't have Reach, too, then you don't get your Retaliatory Strike even when you do. So add Ascetic Style, and use a 7-branched sword for your Reach. Take a level in Alchemist and take St Mutagens to give yourself +2 to attack and Damage and +2 AC

There is the Sundering Style Feats: free Bull Rush with a Sunder. Take Greater Bull Rush, a level in Cavalier and take Paired Opportunist, and it's Attacks of Opportunity all around. Then take Merciless Rush, free Trip with a Bull Rush. Take Greater Trip and Vicious Stomp, and it's 2 more rounds of AoOs for everybody.

Combine Snake and Archon styles. Attacks of opportunity whenever they attack you or your allies. Again, 1 level in Cavalier with Paired Opportunist, and everyone gets an Attack of Opportunity whenever anyone is attacked! Acquire a Crown of Swords. Snake Fang triggers when you are missed; CoS triggers when you are hit!

I have been having trouble optimizing a character that does more than dip into MOMS Monk, though. Perhaps it is just as well that you are not about the optimizing.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook Subscriber
Scott Wilhelm wrote:
I have been having trouble optimizing a character that does more than dip into MOMS Monk, though. Perhaps it is just...

MoMS has always been, for me, one piece of the puzzle. This is the first part before putting together a set of Hybrid Archetypes. With that in mind, here is a copy and paste from Revel's Monk Guide that shows a number of other archetypes you could combine with Master of Many Styles.

Spoiler:

Drunken master

Hungry Ghost Monk

Ki Mystic

Monk of the Lotus

Monk of the Sacred Mountain

Sohei

Drunken master/Monk of the Lotus

Drunken master/Monk of the Sacred Mountain

Hungry Ghost Monk/Monk of the Sacred Mountain

Ki Mystic/Monk of the Lotus

Ki Mystic/Monk of the Sacred Mountain

Sovereign Court

JAMRenaissance wrote:
Scott Wilhelm wrote:
I have been having trouble optimizing a character that does more than dip into MOMS Monk, though. Perhaps it is just...
MoMS has always been, for me, one piece of the puzzle. This is the first part before putting together a set of Hybrid Archetypes. With that in mind, here is a copy and paste from Revel's Monk Guide that shows a number of other archetypes you could combine with Master of Many Styles.

That was true of the old MoMS. It was an amazing dip but a horrible full class. The errata did a great job of nerfing the dip but making the full class pretty solid if you know what you're doing. (especially with the aforementioned nat weapon combination)


Scott Wilhelm wrote:
Scott Wilhelm wrote:

@JAMRenaissance & PossibleCabbage,

I was afraid of that. Too bad.

So, how DO we get extra 5' steps?

Snake Sidewind gives you an extra 5' step on a critical hit as an immediate action, but I think it's tough to crtifish with anything that's compatible with outslug style.


JAMRenaissance wrote:

{. . .}

I'd call that the start to a decent Trip Monkey build.

That got me to thinking: If you can combine Master of Many Styles with Sohei, which gets martial weapon proficiency and 3 ranks of Weapon Training, you can get Ace Trip(*), which will let you use a ranged weapon to trip flying creatures. You won't be a Zen Archer, but a Zen Archer can't keep flying creatures from flying away except by killing them (or at least reducing them to <0 hit points).

(*)(By the way, anyone notice that the falling damage is messed up? -- 100 feet per round should cause 1/25th of the damage of falling at 500 feet per round, not half.)


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook Subscriber

Monkey Moves does as well, allowing a 5' step as a swift action if you hit twice in a round.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook Subscriber

I'm now comfortable with calling this a "Version 1.0" of the guide. I now know in the future to finish my guide and THEN start talking about it.

Here is The Beginner's Basics To The Master Of Many Styles.


I'm not sure I agree with the blue rating for Empty Quiver style for Zen Archers, simply because a lot of what the style gives is stuff you get for free anyway.

The style lets you use your bow as a heavy mace against enemies in melee range, but the ZAM gets Point-Blank Master for free at level 3 which lets them fire a bow from melee without provoking.

Empty Quiver Flexibility feat lets you apply any abilities modifying ranged attacks to your "swing your bow like a club" power, but this is superfluous since the ZAM can just shoot people standing next to them and apply their abilities modifying ranged attacks that way. You do get the ability to threaten within 5' (but you get this anyway at level 9) but it comes with needing to take rapid shot and stabbing shot neither of which you want to spend feats on (rapid shot and manyshot are specifically incompatible with flurry of bows, and if you're making a full round attack as a ZAM you're flurrying).

The final feat in the chain lets you shoot in melee without provoking AoOs (something you've been able to do since level 3 without a precondition) but only if you hit with a melee attack first. It does reload your weapon automatically, the Zen Archer is using a longbow which is a free action to reload anyway.

This just seems like a bad style for Zen Archers, but I might be missing something. If it wasn't for the rapid shot feat tax, I might consider the overwatch style to be worth it for the ZAM, since the 2nd feat in the chain lets you ready two attacks on turns you had to move, but in practice this is fairly narrow and not really worth three feats (I mean, Vital Strike is mathematically comparable and that costs 1 feat.)


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook Subscriber
PossibleCabbage wrote:


*Excellent Analysis Deleted*

This just seems like a bad style for Zen Archers, but I might be missing something. If it wasn't for the rapid shot feat tax, I might consider the overwatch style to be worth it for the ZAM, since the 2nd feat in the chain lets you ready two attacks on turns you had to move, but in practice this is fairly narrow and not really worth three feats (I mean, Vital Strike is mathematically comparable and that costs 1 feat.)

There are two things I really liked about EQS: the fact that you can get the stuff "early", and the thought of being able to easily "switch hit" between piercing and bludgeoning damage. With both of those thoughts in mind, and the fact that I go out of my way to label this a Master of Many Styles guide, I think your analysis is worth me removing the separate rating for Zen Archer.

It seems safe, in some ways, to say that EQS is meant to basically be able to patch in some of Zen Archer's abilities to other classes.

Consider the change done!

(I do REALLY like Overwatch, though. I'm going to remove its separate rating because, again, it's a MoMS Guide, not a Style Guide, and I can see why any Zen Archer wouldn't want to invest in Rapid Shot).


EQS is absolutely not a bad style, it's a well-desgned one even. It serves as an alternative to "point-blank master" for folks who have issues getting that one (normally it requires weapon specialization, and though bow rangers get it as a bonus feat it competes with improved precise shot.) Since every archer in the world except the ZAM is going to want rapid shot, it's a good style for those characters (and it's more flavorful than PBM a lot of the time, though monk players should feel free to describe the tremendous feats of flexibility and balance they employ to shoot a longbow at something that's 5 feet away and attacking them.)

It's just that EQS is a good archery style for everybody who's not a zen archer. I imagine if you were redesigning the Zen Archer archetype for "Pathfinder 2nd edition" the toolbox for "being good up close" would end up looking a lot like EQS does in practice.


JAMRenaissance wrote:

I'm now comfortable with calling this a "Version 1.0" of the guide. I now know in the future to finish my guide and THEN start talking about it.

Here is The Beginner's Basics To The Master Of Many Styles.

That was impressively fast.

One I'd like to see different: Use a darker Green (Light Green on White is really hard to read).

Also, Humans can now pick up 2 martial and/or exotic weapon proficiencies with the Military Tradition alternate racial trait, which replaces the Bonus Feat. Mmmmm . . . Falcata(*) or Fauchard(**) crit-fishing time.

(*)With Ascetic Style and Swordplay Style.

(**)With Ascetic Style and Spear Dancing Style.


I'd recommend putting the hit bonus analysis thing into a table- forum formatting is pretty poor compared to actual tables. Also, the Synergy section might be better named something else- these are feats with shared prerequisites, but not necessarily synergistic. Snake Fang and Crane Style are synergistic, because Crane Style chain makes you harder to hit and Snake Fang lets you take a swing when your enemy misses. Snake Fang is synergistic with the Panther Parry because Panther Parry lets you penalize opponent's attack rolls by attacking them, which means that Snake Fang can let you double your Panther Parry attacks. Kraken and Grabbing Style are synergistic because they both use the grapple action, and don't take additional actions to use. Jabbing, Panther, and Snake styles are synergistic because Panther relies upon you moving and getting attacked, and gives you attacks and AC, Snake relies upon attacks missing, and gives you AC, attacks, and movement, and Jabbing relies upon you making attacks, and gives you movement and damage, and it all feeds back into itself. Dragon and Pummeling work together because Pummeling lets you get full attacks off on a charge, and Dragon lets you ignore difficult terrain while charging. Pummeling lets you stack damage to bypass DR, and Dragon lets you increase damage per hit (both of which are admittedly better as a regular monk with more hits, though).

Scarab Sages

UnArcaneElection wrote:
JAMRenaissance wrote:

I'm now comfortable with calling this a "Version 1.0" of the guide. I now know in the future to finish my guide and THEN start talking about it.

Here is The Beginner's Basics To The Master Of Many Styles.

That was impressively fast.

One I'd like to see different: Use a darker Green (Light Green on White is really hard to read).

Also, Humans can now pick up 2 martial and/or exotic weapon proficiencies with the Military Tradition alternate racial trait, which replaces the Bonus Feat. Mmmmm . . . Falcata(*) or Fauchard(**) crit-fishing time.

(*)With Ascetic Style and Swordplay Style.

(**)With Ascetic Style and Spear Dancing Style.

How are you getting Falcata or Fauchard to work with Ascetic Style? Ascetic Style works with the monk fighter weapon group, not the monk weapon property, so it's not a valid weapon for the feat even if you use something like crusader's flurry or sohei.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook Subscriber

Suggestions have been implemented (recolored green, created a to-hit/BAB table, clarified the Synergies section to Synergies/feat requirements).

I mistakenly intimated that Ascetic Style worked outside of Monk weapons; I removed those references.


Imbicatus wrote:
How are you getting Falcata or Fauchard to work with Ascetic Style? Ascetic Style works with the monk fighter weapon group, not the monk weapon property, so it's not a valid weapon for the feat even if you use something like crusader's flurry or sohei.

Oops, I read Ascetic Style wrong (missed the part about Fighter Monk Weapon Group -- dain bramage). Unfortunately, Monk weapons (which seem to be mostly the same as the Fighter Monk Weapon Group, although I might have missed a couple in the latter) seem to have not very good Critical capability (only a few that have even x3 or 19-20/x2, and nothing better than that, and most don't have very good base damage dice either).


the urumi has an 18-20 crit range that works for ascetic style


Just a quick thing about the appendix: Perhaps you format it with the level in the far left column, and the individual BABs in the other columns?

The table header would be "BAB". Row 1 of the table would look like:
Level | Rogue | Monk | UMonk | Warrior | etc.

instead of:

BAB | MOMS: | Regular Monk: | etc.
____ | 1st: +0 | 1st: -2/-2 | etc.
____ | 2nd:+1 | 2nd: -1/-1 | etc.
____ | 3rd: +2 | 3rd: +0/+0 | etc.
____ | 4th: +3 | 4th: +1/+1 | etc.

You could add a row 2 below the first row, containing:
1st | +0 | -2/-2 | +1/+1 | +1 | etc.
2nd| +1 | -1/-1 | +2/+2 | +2 | etc.
3rd | +2 | +0/+0 | +3/+3 | +3 | etc.
4th | +3 | +1/+1 | +4/+4 | +4 | etc.

and so on until you reached 20th level. That way, the BAB per level is better-aligned, to allow easier comparisons.


Chess Pwn wrote:
the urumi has an 18-20 crit range that works for ascetic style

Huh, waddya know. Despite lacking the Monk property the urumi is in the Monk Fighter weapon group. I suppose that makes it pretty good for the MoMS in particular since that archetype doesn't care if you can flurry with it.


Arachnofiend wrote:
Chess Pwn wrote:
the urumi has an 18-20 crit range that works for ascetic style
Huh, waddya know. Despite lacking the Monk property the urumi is in the Monk Fighter weapon group. I suppose that makes it pretty good for the MoMS in particular since that archetype doesn't care if you can flurry with it.

Not especially. Monks aren't regularly proficient with urumis. However, they work fine with flurries if you have Ascetic Style.

Scarab Sages

Unchained Monks aren't proficient with urumis either. They are proficient with all weapons with the monk property, but not all weapons int the monk fighter weapon group.

Still, if you can gain proficency via half elf or feel like spending the feat, it's a good pick for them.

You can also flurry with them via Crusader's Flurry via Nalinivati


Humans can pick up the proficiency as well, alongside one other exotic weapon. I never really know what to do with that second free proficiency, though.

Sovereign Court

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Arachnofiend wrote:
Humans can pick up the proficiency as well, alongside one other exotic weapon. I never really know what to do with that second free proficiency, though.

Net?

Scarab Sages

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Charon's Little Helper wrote:
Arachnofiend wrote:
Humans can pick up the proficiency as well, alongside one other exotic weapon. I never really know what to do with that second free proficiency, though.
Net?

Longbow is a good default, or tri-point double-edge sword for reach and double-up on ascetic style.


Imbicatus wrote:

Unchained Monks aren't proficient with urumis either. They are proficient with all weapons with the monk property, but not all weapons int the monk fighter weapon group.

{. . .}

I have to ask: Why is the Fighter Monk Weapon Group divergent from the list of weapons that have the Monk property?


I like (in that way I say "like" about things I actually dislike) that "weapons in the monk weapon group", "weapons monks can use", and "weapons with the monk property" are three different things.

Like, it wasn't impossible to make this simple, or just simpler than it is.

Scarab Sages

UnArcaneElection wrote:
Imbicatus wrote:

Unchained Monks aren't proficient with urumis either. They are proficient with all weapons with the monk property, but not all weapons int the monk fighter weapon group.

{. . .}

I have to ask: Why is the Fighter Monk Weapon Group divergent from the list of weapons that have the Monk property?

I have no idea. I blame the incredibly bad editing in ultimate combat.


Arachnofiend wrote:
Humans can pick up the proficiency as well, alongside one other exotic weapon. I never really know what to do with that second free proficiency, though.

The Unarmed Fighter Archetype gains proficiency in all Monk Weapons, so you can gain urumi Proficiency with 1 level in Unarmed Fighter. Also, Unarmed Fighters gain a bonus Style Feat, so it's easy to imagine this 1 level dip blending nicely into a MOMS Monk build.

Imbicatus wrote:
UnArcaneElection wrote:
Imbicatus wrote:

Unchained Monks aren't proficient with urumis either. They are proficient with all weapons with the monk property, but not all weapons int the monk fighter weapon group.

{. . .}

I have to ask: Why is the Fighter Monk Weapon Group divergent from the list of weapons that have the Monk property?

I have no idea. I blame the incredibly bad editing in ultimate combat.

Behold one of life's great mysteries. Who knows: they might have even done it on purpose.

First, there was a large group of weapons that only a Monk would use.

Then they added a whole bunch of weapons that had the "Monk" weapon property that Monks could all just use: the Monk quality means the weapon can be used with Flurry of Blows.

Now they created a new thing called the Monk Fighter Weapon Group, which is a list of a group of weapons that a Fighter can gain +1 to attack and damage with every 4 levels starting at level 5, a Human Fighter can apply a weapon specific Feat to by taking the Martial Versatility Feat, and persumably when you take your first level in Unarmed Fighter, it is the Monk Fighter Weapon Group you gain Proficiency in and not all weapons with the Monk quality. But who knows? Maybe Unarmed Fighters get automatic proficiency in both!


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I have a small suggestion for an addition to your feat section. As an alternative to Combat Expertise, you may want to mention Dirty Fighting from the Dirty Tactics Toolbox:

Dirty Fighting wrote:

Benefit(s): When you attempt a combat maneuver check against a foe you are flanking, you can forgo the +2 bonus on your attack roll for flanking to instead have the combat maneuver not provoke an attack of opportunity. If you have a feat or ability that allows you to attempt the combat maneuver without provoking an attack of opportunity, you can instead increase the bonus on your attack roll for flanking to +4 for the combat maneuver check.

Special: This feat counts as having Dex 13, Int 13, Combat Expertise, and Improved Unarmed Strike for the purposes of meeting the prerequisites of the various improved combat maneuver feats, as well as feats that require those improved combat maneuver feats as prerequisites.

The primary benefit is that it does not have the Int 13 requirement that Combat Expertise does; many monks can't spare the points for that score. Plus it can be useful if you are going for maneuvers.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook Subscriber

Updated to include Dirty Fighting


^Oops -- forgot about Dirty Fighting. This makes Combat Expertise mostly obsolete (only situation I can think of to use it is on somebody who has a spell(*) or other ability that gets you off the hook for at least part of the penalty).

(*)Such as Blade Tutor's Spirit.


UnArcaneElection wrote:
^Oops -- forgot about Dirty Fighting. This makes Combat Expertise mostly obsolete

Unfortunately, not. It does not help for:

Archon Style
Kobolt Style
Swordplay Style
Most feats

Things it does help for:
Combat Maneuvers (Which the MoMS is worse at than other monks)
Kitsune Style
Quick Dirty Trick


You still need Combat Expertise if you want improved feint, or you actually want to use its effect. Elven Battle Torrent and Swordplay Style have effects that require "fighting defensively, or using either the total defense action or the Combat Expertise feat" and of those three options "actually using Combat Expertise" is the best option by a lot.

So if you want to use Swordplay Style or Elven Battle Style you will actually want Combat Expertise.


PossibleCabbage wrote:

You still need Combat Expertise if you want improved feint, or you actually want to use its effect. Elven Battle Torrent and Swordplay Style have effects that require "fighting defensively, or using either the total defense action or the Combat Expertise feat" and of those three options "actually using Combat Expertise" is the best option by a lot.

So if you want to use Swordplay Style or Elven Battle Style you will actually want Combat Expertise.

Or the Crane Style chain?


My Self wrote:
PossibleCabbage wrote:

You still need Combat Expertise if you want improved feint, or you actually want to use its effect. Elven Battle Torrent and Swordplay Style have effects that require "fighting defensively, or using either the total defense action or the Combat Expertise feat" and of those three options "actually using Combat Expertise" is the best option by a lot.

So if you want to use Swordplay Style or Elven Battle Style you will actually want Combat Expertise.

Or the Crane Style chain?

It'll be all right. Combat Expertise is an underrated Feat. You need all the Armor Class you can get: most Monks can't wear armor, and most of the ones who do, like MOMS Monks, still only wear Light Armor so they can still have Evasion, or they only dip into classes that only grant Light Armor Proficiency, like Unarmed Fighters.

Meanwhile, if you are taking Snake Fang, higher AC translates to more attacks/round. If you are taking Panther or Archon style feats, you are drawing extra attacks as much as you can: it sure is nice if those attacks all miss.

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