Inkfist's page

Its very clear from your posts that your table works differently than a great many tables. Some of that difference seems to be that your table does a lot of optimization of both individual characters and of the group as a whole. There seem to be other differences but I haven't been able to figure out what they are.

And that is just fine. You presumably are all having fun and have found balance points that work for your hyper optimizing groups.

But the game is ALSO working as intended when a group of more casual players get together with less optimized characters or when (as in PFS) a random assortment of strangers get together with characters built with no knowledge at all of what else will be at the table.

Thank you, there is nothing wrong with a high powered /highly optimised game, or one with optional or variant rules. You just can't assume it's the default state of the game for people.

The issue with having a martial being buffed multiple times/ or enemies being debuffed multiple times before anyone else acts is while it is *a* solution to encounter, it's often not *the* best solution to encounters. For every time 'buff the VIP' works, there is often one where a sixth rank 'slow' or a 'chain lightning', or even something like a 'banishment' offers more impact or will speed up encounters faster than spending multiple turns buffing one party member.

That and providing average damage numbers without factoring in 'to-hit' is going to give misleading results. If someone is at a high-powered enough table that they ARE hitting 3-5 times a round, then that should be mentioned so that people can factor it in.

From my very many readings of Deriven’s posts, I think, to the contrary, Deriven’s group plays ultra high powered and hard enemies. With a bunch of fairly optimised characters and tactically savvy players.

Yes but that would reinforce the point that his experiences aren't in line with most people's. Probably the biggest evidence of this is that in the 'worst class' thread there is a paragraph or so about how focus power/spell based classes are terrible as parties rarely ever get to refocus between encounters...which once again doesn't line up with most people's experience.

If you are in a tactical group where enemies are often severely debuffed to the point of triviality then it's probably worth mentioning the spell and action costs involved to set up that scenario rather than just assuming it as standard.

My group often runs 'protect the president/superstar' compositions, where everyone typically supports a single character to do ludicrous damage. However, I can't pretend that the 'superstar' does all of that damage without turns and turns of actions and support.

When you casually go 'class X can't do damage' but then a dozen responses in you find their comparison point was a dual class game with assumed pocket caster support and multiple set-up rounds then its *possible* that it may not be either a good or fair comparison. In this case an equal level enemy with moderate AC would need to be Clumsy 3 for the argument that the Rogue is HITTING more than three times in a round where they have surprise attack to be accurate more than half the time. (I.e. a second pocket caster beating the everyone in inititive and dropping 'Synesthesia' before the hasted Rogue gets their surprise attack turn. It's theoretically possible but now the hypothetical assumes either multiple unmentioned pocket casters setting the rogue up, or is a staggeringly trivial encounter. Possible, but neither represents the experiences of most players.

Ok let's look at the hypothetical scenario you've set up, and factor in the claim that hitting 3-5 times a round is standard for your rogue.

The scenario you give is a level 15 rogue with an eleven curve blade with level appropriate runes beginning the encounter unseen, undetected with haste.

I'm going to be extraordinarily generous and say the enemy is a level appropriate block of tofu with no abilities, senses, spells, or anything else other than the 'moderate' AC for an equal leveled enemy. To land a 3rd attack against a moderately armoured equal leveled enemy with a weapon that has finesse but not agile you'd have to roll 16 or higher.

This is with a rogue that has maxxed out stats and runes runes for their level and surprise attack giving you off guard for every attack. With this optimal set-up you are still missing that 3rd strike 75% of the time.

It's both worth noting that a single at-level enemy is a 40xp trivial encounter, and an 'moderate AC' enemy that you could reliably hit more than half the time with that third strike would need to four or more levels below you which would count as a 10xp lackey.

This is not trolling, this is the scenario *you* put forward to argue your case. To reliably hit as often as you claim you have to have had 'haste' cast on you, you've had to sneak up on your enemy, you've had to win initiative, but to hit 'at least 3-5 times a turn' it would have to have been against literally the lowest threat encounter for your level in the XP table.

If we use the encounter XP rules to create a single enemy that will count as a moderate threat then that third attack lands only 10% of the time against an 'off guard' enemy with only moderate AC

Of course the Rogue feels great if you get buffed and spent a night chain critting lackeys. I wasn't trolling when I said that wasn't the standard experience for most people. I'm not saying Rogue isn't a strong class. What I AM saying is either something is very off with the scenario you have presented to highlight the strength of the class, or if this *is* a reflection of your average play experience then your GM is coddling your party beyond belief.

It gets worse he also presumes to be getting haste and reaction damage in this scenario and got frustrated when it was suggested that enemies typically will punish squishy characters who conventiently start their turn next to them and who try to attack three+ times.

White room math is great if you are calculating how much damage you can do to a low AC immobile block of tofu.

You are more likely to find a monster that has multiple reactions, or resistances, or immunities, or forces players into bad choices via saves or by having exceptionaly punishing 2-3 action options. You just have to play through some of the earlier AP's to find how often Paizo is willing to throw creatures that are immune to precision damage and/or crits at you.

Sometimes monsters just grab (and swallow) players. Sometimes they just fly which makes the ranged martials and casters feel great, but kind of screws over anyone that hyper invested their character's wealth in that optimal blade and its property runes.

These hyper cheesy 'class X is better than class Y because of this heavily cherry picked scenario' are unhelpful because they always devolve into 'hypothetical batman builds'. The 1e message boards used to be riddled with players arguing that nothing could beat a wizard, but the second someone pointed out actual play experiences and scenarios then the *hypothetical* wizard was suddenly one who magically had the exact feats, archetypes and options that would be sub-optimal or barely functional for a dozen levels or so, but were perfectly tailored to that exact scenario.

So yeah, apparently the rogue is hasted. If we point out that kieticists can switch hit and deal with flying enemies well then suddenly the rogue will have a flight speed/airwalk. If we point out that assuming that you hit 3+ times a round is unlikely, then the enemy will be clumsy 3 and the Rouge has their pocket caster pre-buff them with a high rank 'heroism'

The kineticist doesn't do bad damage because it has bad damage. The kineticist comes off second best because its a bad comparison point. It would be like arguing the rouge was a sub-par striker because the only measure I used was damage against a bunch of enemies tightly clustered in a 10 foot burst.

You've now added 'Haste' to your hypothetical white room math example.

Not only did you create a comparison point which was perfectly suited to the rogue but now you are just assuming they are being supported and buffed by a pocket caster too?

If your GM is letting a 8hp/level martial safely stand next to enemies and get off 2-3hits (plus reactions) on average whilst also giving them time to be buffed without being targeted or punished...well that GM is straight up coddling your party.

Most martial classes trade damage for versatility. E.g. your 'sword and board' users opting for a shield for defence, or reserving and open hand for manoeuvres. Kineticist strikes stack up pretty well against most of them with the added flexibility of having no action tax to safely switch between melee and ranged without a loss of accuracy or damage. They get a lot of utility and AOE potential in exchange.

Once again they won't beat a hasted, single target specialist at single target damage, against a target that does nothing in response. But they arent *lacking* because of it.

It's like trying to argue that the Rogue needs buffs because its worse at combat when using an eleven curve blade whilst blinded and underwater, or that they they are bad because they lack class feats to give them a burrow speed. Creating unrealistic scenarios that heavily favour one class or another doesn't tell us anything.

It's like saying 'my formula 1 racing car can beat a Mazda in a race...provided that it's on a perfect racing surface and there is no traffic' the second you encounter a moderately sized speed hump you have a problem, and with AP's at least Paizo *loves* throwing speed bumps at parties. In those cases a moderate throughput workhorse preforms better than the hyper-specilised.

The kineticist fills a similar role as the Summoner. They don't have the same power ceilings as most of their peers, but they are given more tools to deal with adverse situations than their peers. For many people that's not a weakness, thats the appeal.

When it comes to single target damage Kieticists can choose to just hit things.

Let's look at the comparison point you made. You have a rogue with what for most rackets is their optimal weapon, fully upgraded, getting sneak attack and not only assuming it hits or crits, but also straight up assuming that they can do this multiple times per round.

That's fine for a white room math exercise, but in actual play I've found it exceptionally rare that I can safely start my turn next to a pre-debuffed/flanked enemy and drop all my actions striking, let alone assuming it's the default state of play.

Now let's look at level 15 kineticist with *just* a level appropriate gate attenuator and the level 1 feat 'weapon infusion'. Without needing to sneak or flank, or anything other than being within 20 feet of an enemy they can hit for 4d8+10 for two actions, or 4d8+5 for a single action (anywhere up to 100 feet away). This isnt factoring in aura effects, other powers, etc that the kineticist has at this level just plain strikes.

Is the kineticst as strong against a single target as a single target specialist as the rogue who is kitted out and is assuming everything is in their favour? No. Is it solid enough damage that can be done outside the reach of the vast majority of reactive strikes in the game all at a cost of a first level class feat? Yeah.

It's like how a kineticist will beat the rogue at AOE every time, but will be blown out of the water by a psychic when the white room math assumes that somehow it's turn 2, and the enemies are weak to will or reflex saves. If you set up the hypothetical to massively benifit one party then the results will skew towards that party.

Having great but conditional damage is fine, but you can't assume it's an every turn let alone multiple times a turn option. Paizo loves building encounters that often screw over certain playstyles. The second the enemy starts flying, or having exceptionaly dangerous 2-3 action options, or can't be flanked, or has multiple reactions per turn then getting up close with that elven curve blade becomes a bad idea.

Having lower but reliable damage with the only condition of being within 100 feet isn't *bad*. It's dependable. Having CON+STR potentially added to strikes within 20 feet is pretty decent. The price the Kineticist pays for not being the best at AOE or Single target damage is to be have reasonable but consistent throughput in more situations.

The stream was like 6:30 am here and I was not conscious enough when I heard this announcement.

Paizo and DE are the only two companies with a direct line to my wallet so I'm feeling (happily) targeted here.

Going against the trend here, I'd like everyone to remember Paizo's output towards the end of 1e where plenty of classes were released, and because everyone knew the system so well they were (mostly) absolute love letters to 1e.

Some of the most fun I had with 1e was with those later classes such as the Kineticist, Mesmerist,Medium and Occultist even if some of them were so fiddly and complicated they needed software to run. (Ah Herolab you made the Occultist with its dozens of moving parts, floating bonuses, and discrete daily power pools sing)

I like it when Paizo gets experimental and tries things out. You can see the blueprint for 2e in the Occultist and especially the Vigilante class. You have these basic chassis that you build upon and choose how you want to build your character, and the Vigilante had seperate pools of combat and social/skill powers to round out characters and make players feel OK with picking something cool and flavourful instead of thinking they would be hurting the party if they didn't hyperfocus on combat. This is pretty much how we ended up getting skill and class feats siloed separately.

While like most people I'd like expanded options for existing classes (look at how well the Divine spell list has rounded out/expanded over the years) i don't think that throttling down the new classes is the way to do it.

Wasn't it changed because DR to all physical types is now baked in as a core function. The playtest you had your armours specialisation type and that was it asides from intercepting.

Now (from what I've seen of the posted previews) its clearer to understand and you don't have potentially two competing types of DR (which makes the lower one redundant).

As a quick question does your group play AP's or Homebrews? I'm asking because the recent 'Treasure Vault' book with its expanded alchemical ammunition options makes Gunslingers much stronger.

This can be seen most clearly in how AP encounters are very frequently written with things like enemy resistances, weaknesses, regeneration etc.

The alchemical ammunition essentially give gunslingers the option to be a 'prepared martial' class, with a suite of bane, elemental, rare metal, and persistent damage options. Careful (or informed) selections shoot the gunslingers effective damage well ahead of other ranged options.

As an example from my table we are playing a certain AP and found ourselves facing a fort full of trolls and their minions. Gunslingers being able to target and exploit a damage weakness, inflict persistent damage to trigger that weakness, and negate regeneration all at once are doing the 'effective damage' of a small party with a handful of level 1 items.

This may sound like an explicitly cherrypicked example (it was the last set of encounters my group faced last week) this just shows how common it is for Paizo to put 'twists' on encounters beyond standard white room math tests. Think of how often hardness or resistance has all but shut down a bow weilding fighter or ranger for that specific encounter? Gunslingers get feat (and trait, and item) support to negate nearly all of that now.

You know the feedback threads posted after every playtest? The ones where Paizo talk about internal testing, and external perception and how people play?

Well, I'd love to see that once or twice a year in regards to Pathfinder 2e as a whole.

Things like talking about how Warpriests are perceived vs internal playtests, or how they were expected to be 'selfish' casters using things like 'heroism' to keep up with other martials.

Or how Witches are seen as the weakest of the current casters, but that there is a slew of new lessons (I hope) on the horizon that should bring them into line with everyone else.

It could be paired with a 1-2 times a year errata update where they can explain their choices and reasonings.

I think it would be healthy for the game and the community as a whole.

Getting 5 "better than a cantrip blasts" per fight is probably a pretty close DPR over an adventuring day

The issue is less pure math on a blast vs blast ratio and one of choice, agency and cost.

For example say I have to pick between say a Druid and a Psychic.

The Druid can tailor their cantrips to hit every save with a couple left for utility, they get better hp, armour, shield block. They can have an animal companion and have enough spell slots to keep some for things like general healing and Utility. By level 4 they can have 3 focus points.

The Psychic gives all that up for having the option to (initially) tank their AC and cast up to 5 of their comparatively weaker focus powers.

Now compare the Psychic to what Bards get as a package and see if any bard would ever give up their class features, composition cantrips, and 1/3rd of all their spells for the chance to cast an amped 'daze', 'mage hand' or 'telekinetic projectile' an extra 2-3 times per combat?

Hey, HEY! it also does 3 + 1 (for every 2 spell levels) damage for your focus point.

Surely that's worth 1-2 8th level spells at high level...right?

Mark Seifter was talking about how you know class design has worked when something *is* balanced but looks 'broken and amazing' (paraphrasing here)

An obvious example would be class feats that allow a draconic barbarian to *become* a dragon.

The issue with the Psychic is that the 'broken' wow factor draw of the class needs to be in its amp cantrips. Because they are picked as a set you give up a *lot* of choice, power and utility for your conscious
mind selection.

...and as it stands a 1d8/spell level version "telekinetic projectile" that's incompatible with metamagic and requiring a spell attack roll doesn't seem like its worth 1-2 level 1 spell slots let alone an 8th or 9th level spells.

CRB, p. 302 wrote:

If you take on a battle form with a polymorph spell, the special statistics can be adjusted only by circumstance bonuses, status bonuses, and penalties.

The wild order druid focus spell version of wildshape/animal form etc, gives a specific exception allowing you to use your regular to-hits with a +2 bonus if you use your own stats rather than that given by the spell.(page 401 of the CRB)

Inkfist wrote:

quick draw

Quickdraw doesn't do anything for a seedpod so I'm unsure why you mentioned it.

Its a round one option. Hunt target, command companion, strike with seedpod at up to double the range increment without penalty.

Round 2 if the enemy has closed the gap. Strike with quick draw, Strike, command companion for move and strike (the lack of MAP and the companions access to precisions bonus damage makes this viable.

Quick draw enables a switch hitter play style at no action cost if you start every encounter mode with your hands empty.

It's also viable for precision Rangers from level 2 onwards when quick draw becomes an option. With a bird companion that's an opener of 1d4+4+1d8+1d4 bleed and inflicting a 20% miss chance

I was a bit miffed about utility spells taking a hit too, until I realised what Paizo did.

A lot of the big utility options have been moved to rituals. Is unseen servant nowhere near as good? Sure, but with a bit of downtime and an attempt or two you can make some animated objects that do the same job.

Moving utility to rituals also opens them up to all characters which means as more content comes out everyone is strengthened rather than just extending the Gulf between casters and martials that we can see in 1e.

I think It's less users making people feeling unwelcome and more calling out some *really* bad faith arguments.

For example look at this one literally from this threads OP:

https://paizo.com/threads/rzs42ux7?Unlimited-Martial-Fireballs-How-the-Pend ulum

Where he claims that barbarians 3 action options outperform casters blast options and can do so all day vs a limited resource.

Which assumes that the barbarian in question:

Is already raging
Is wielding a reach weapon
Is a Giant Instinct Barbarian
Is Level 15+
Has taken the feats for Whirlwind Strike
Is positioned in the middle of a horde of enemies
Can Safely use 3 actions and not move when surrounded by enemies
Can consistently manage to meet all the above criteria several times a day.

and

The caster is using a fireball in a 7th level slot as opposed to one of the more powerful level appropriate spells

Someone pointing out the above argument isn't realistic and doesn't reflect actual play experience *isn't* saying that posters like OP are unwelcome, rather that the argument they are putting forth is flawed or misleading.

I'm playing a warpriest so I sit between martial and pure caster for action usage, and anyone defaulting to just move+cast is hurting themselves and their party.

Sure there are times you need to move, but recalling knowledge,demoralizing groups of enemies, sustaining spells, 1 action focus powers, spells, and cantrips or even weapon attacks are all conditionally more useful.

At low levels blending crossbow strikes with electric arc (and reloading every second round) will likely out dpr many martial builds due to the half damage on a save effect.

It's fools gold. Any martial that's spending those rounds on attacks spends the subsequent turns with the dying condition.

Agreed. On paper it seems like martial classes have a distinct edge, but trying to leverage 3 actions next to an enemy often means blowing your hero points in the next round of so.

Martial have some great 3 action sequences, but without magical assistance (taste, greater invisibility etc) they have very few practical opportunities to use them.

The Halloween special.

A (Pumpkin) gourd headed leshy ranger with the farm hand background.

Take the precision edge and a bird companion for your first feat.

Now you are a pumping headed scythe-weilding scarecrow that attacks people with a 'dire-crow'

The damage is much better than you'd think, and the persistent bleed and miss chances you hand out are

From what you said it looks like you ran a Strength based vanguard. Asides from running with a Shobhad for the reach 40 foot speed, strength and extra arms it looks really hard to make a Strength vanguard work at low levels. (Hell, I don't think you *can* get a returning spear, riot shield and anything more than the cheapest heavy armor at character creation, which negates the point of the shield as spending even half of its cost on better armor yields better permanent results.

A dex build looks to take care of any reflex issues, though I agree they are susceptible to will based effects.

Personally i'm OK with entropic strikes doing less damage compared to solar weapons, mainly due to hitting TAC vs KAC. I'd actually wouldn't mind seeing the math DPR wise of full attacking using your weapon for the primary strike and entropic strikes for the others using TAC to offset the penalties.

That flat check on the Armor of Fortification seems pretty rough.

As a flat check it still works out as 15/30% chance of critical negation (same as 1e) the big difference that with anything that's 10+ higher than your AC counting as a crit (and Frits doubling damage+higher level potancy of weapons) suggests that fortification may be stronger in 2e than it is currently.

Inkfist wrote:

Yeah ignoring feats, and abilities like rage sure make things look like trap classes. By that standard barbarians and Fighters are utterly useless too...

What's currently being left off of the list for the Shifter in that comparison then? Bearing in mind it should probably be posted in the math thread.

Wolverine aspect notably gives rage and rage powers. He's also missing the feat for the extra scaling attack.

Due to items like Bestial rags, a level 8 shifter should have three aspects to chose from and can pick the most beneficial minor aspect bonus.

If we are comparing DPR shouldn't we be comparing the higher damage options? Tiger is a combat form yes, but it exchanges the damage and survivability of the wolverine for pounce, grab and an extra 10 feet of movement.

Seeing as the "Kineticist does less DPR than a commoner with a bow" did the rounds for a solid six months after release, shouldn't we be more honest in our comparisons and builds?

Has anyone compared the Shifter to the Unchained Monk? That would probably be the most comparable previously existing class.

Significantly less damage than a Umonk 2 hand power attacking with a sansetsukon for those first few levels. Though your defences should be slightly higher. There is a bit more parity between fists vs claws with the shifter doing well if they could snag a race with a primary natural bite or gore attack.

At 4 Shifters get a nice boost with the size and stat bonuses from wildshape. Things like grab, trip, rage and super early access to pounce are all very nice toys. (actually Umonks with flying kick are the only full BAB class that get access to a pounce like ability anywhere near as soon, though they have wait several levels before its quite as strong)

Later on the UMonk tends to make more full bab attacks and has a stronger nova options and shenanigans like medusa's wrath. Shifters get options to hit harder and look to have ways of boosting their HP, defences and survivability more easily.

Has there been a confirmation that the shifter gets Size bonuses?

Seeing as It is worded as shifter Wildshape counts as Beast shape two the following is in play

"Tiny animal: If the form you take is that of a Tiny animal, you gain a +4 size bonus to your Dexterity, a –2 penalty to your Strength, and a +1 natural armor bonus.

Large animal: If the form you take is that of a Large animal, you gain a +4 size bonus to your Strength, a –2 penalty to your Dexterity, and a +4 natural armor bonus."

The major problem with this item (Bestial rags) is that it competes with the Body Wrap of Mighty Strikes for the body slot.

Why buy a bodywrap of mighty strikes when for most forms an amulet of mighty fists is the better option? Seeing as you get scaling bonuses to natural armour it's not competing for your neck slot in terms of the big six.

Sat down last night with herolab and worked out the numbers for the Shifter. Turns out once you factor in things like the major form abilities, feats and things like Bestial rags they are a lot tankier/stronger than predicted.

I took a look at the Dire bear, Dire Tiger and Dire Wolverine forms and the second they hit 4 they are pretty nasty. Things like rage, size bonuses and super early access to pounce make them rather potent.

Bestial Rags are a steal for the price and open up picking up a utility/movement aspect much more palatable. (8k gold for evasion/improved evasion? +5 minutes of minor aspects? yes please). This means you can have a combat form/ a flight form and a utility form by about levels 6/7.

Strength builds are more viable than I thought with Size bonuses alleviating a lot of the MAD concerns I had on my first read through.

Later I plan to see how a high dex build goes with both the published and errata versions of Shifters edge in play.

There are options for grenade arrows to up the damage, but the cost makes them 'for a rainy day' option as opposed to an every attack one.

Crossbolters can also take them while doing scaling damage.

at the very least it looks like they have more options than the carbonedge shuriken at least.

Brandon Hodge wrote:

Plausible Pseudonym wrote:

...the Occultist options aren't all terrible in their mechanical benefits, they're just laugh out loud bad in what you have to do to get and keep them. A fair universe would award you a couple of mythic tiers for pulling that stuff off.

The occultist archetypes have been pretty well received and the critique doesn't seem to match the mechanics. Are you sure you're talking about the right class?

Medium! Occultist archetypes were amazing.

Playing with Herolab and the Haunt collector Occultist is a massive buff to the class. (actually due to the wording it may be on the level of the primalist bloodrager) Trading out weak resonance powers for a buff to your prefered playstyle is amazing.

At low levels an unbuffed transmutation/champion occultist hits like a barbarian, and the swift action spirit bonus shores up the biggest weakness of the melee occultist (you needed knowledge of whats coming up to prepare yourself adequately, now you can be effective without needing 2-3 rounds of prep)

For blaster occultists an archmage spirit is like free damage on all your spells, that stacks with the free damage evocation gives you. (did you really need that conjuration resonance power? free damage, a new power and still being able to keep your standard action 10 round summons sounds like an amazing deal. )

Being able to punch haunts is just icing on the cake.

Inkfist wrote:

If anyone is on the fence about mystic bolt at higher levels (when all those resistances become an issue), there is a nice interaction between the 'Arcane striker' and 'returning weapon' vigilante talents.

For a two feat investment ('quick draw' and 'clustered shots') whenever something with particularly high resistances turns up just grab a bunch of starknives. The two talents, and a pair of Deliquescent Gloves turns a single +4 'agile' starknife into whats effectively six or seven +4 'Agile' 'Holy' 'Corrosive''returning' +3 extra damage starknives.

returning: "It returns to the thrower just before the creature’s next turn" That means a single starknife can make a single attack. No "effectively six or seven +4 'Agile' 'Holy' 'Corrosive''returning' +3 extra damage starknives"

Look at the 14th level section of returning weapon. It allows you to copy the magical properties of the first weapon to any mundane copies you can throw that round. at level 14 arcane striker is adding +3 to damage and a special elemental ability (such as shocking, Deliquescent gloves adds the 'corrosive' property, and returning weapon adds the returning property. With the 'Quick Draw' feat I can pull out more star knives as a free action. Returning weapon copies across all the enhancements to every subsequent weapon. This lets you get the full bonus on all thrown weapons for your full attack.

at 16 you upgrade the enhancement 'Arcane striker' gives (e.g. Holy)