It's hard to say which rule is more specific: Haste's [manufactured/natural attack] or Mystic Bolts [takes the place of one of the warlock's normal attacks]. I can see someone picking either.
Myself, I think a manufactured/natural attack would be a normal attack so Mystic Bolts should be able to replace it. On top of that, I see no mechanical/balance reason the bolts would need to be excluded. As such, I'd vote for 'they work together'. Just my personal opinion though, as I'm unsure how we're meant to treat a light one handed non-manufactured weapon. The examples given aren't very helpful as they are simply 'weapon like': scorching rays and produce flame. It'd be easier to draw conclusions of it was compared to spells that ACTUALLY acted like weapons. For instance, if Flame Blade or Gozreh's Trident where used as examples, it'd be more relevant. [spells that actuals have weapon categories [one handed] and use proficiencies]. Does the ability to "wield as if it were a" manufactured weapon allow a spell to work with haste?
I still go with Lethal Grace works with melee Mystic Bolt till FAQ otherwise. Since it says add Str and +1/2 levels to damage.
Doesn't say only if normally adds Str.
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Lethal Grace (Ex): The vigilante combines strength and speed into incredibly deadly attacks. He gains Weapon Finesse as a bonus feat, and if he already has the Weapon Finesse feat, he can immediately swap it for another feat for which he qualified at the level he chose Weapon Finesse. When using Weapon Finesse to make a melee attack using his Dexterity bonus on attack rolls and his Strength bonus on damage rolls, he also adds half his vigilante level on damage rolls. This bonus damage is not reduced or increased if the vigilante is wielding a weapon two-handed or in an off-hand.
The emphasis being that you only get +1/2 level to damage when using Str for damage. Mystic bolts do not add Str to damage, so no +1/2 level to damage.
I still go with Lethal Grace works with melee Mystic Bolt till FAQ otherwise. Since it says add Str and +1/2 levels to damage.
Doesn't say only if normally adds Str.
No, it says it only works on attacks that you're adding strength to. For instance, if you had fencing Grace and replaced strength damage with dex damage you would no longer be able to use it there too.
No, it says it only works on attacks that you're adding strength to. For instance, if you had fencing Grace and replaced strength damage with dex damage you would no longer be able to use it there too.I still go with Lethal Grace works with melee Mystic Bolt till FAQ otherwise. Since it says add Str and +1/2 levels to damage.
Doesn't say only if normally adds Str.
Nope: It says
"When using Weapon Finesse to make a melee attack using his Dexterity bonus on attack rolls and his Strength bonus on damage rolls, he also adds half his vigilante level on damage rolls"Point where it requires you to it only works on attacks that you're adding strength to add Str? Not there, is it? Looks like you are houseruling.
Point where it requires you to it only works on attacks that you're adding strength to add Str? Not there, is it? Looks like you are houseruling.
The line you quoted? Snipped for clarity-"When using Weapon Finesse to make a melee attack using...strength bonus on damage rolls, he also adds half his vigilante level on damage rolls".
So an attack roll that gets STR to attack doesn't qualify.
An attack roll that gets DEX to damage doesn't qualify.
An attack roll that gets Nothing to damage doesn't qualify.
And so on, because it only works if your attack is dex to hit and strength to damage.
It also doesn't add strength, it only adds half your level if you're getting strength to damage already.
Starbuck_II: You LITERALLY quoted it;
"When using Weapon Finesse to make a melee attack": using the feat
"using his Dexterity bonus on attack rolls": using dex to hit
"and his Strength bonus on damage rolls": using strength for damage
FAQ: "you don’t add your Strength bonus on damage rolls": NOT using str
So can you again explain why using "his Strength bonus on damage rolls" DOESN'T mean "it only works on attacks that you're adding strength to add Str"? Because I don't see it. At all. Even a little. This isn't house-ruling, it's a complete lack of reading comprehension of your part.
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Well, this has grown off-topic.
I'm on the fence about the haste thing, though. I'm inclined to say that mystic bolts do work with haste, but I could understand if a GM ruled it differently.
Should we start a new thread asking this question and hope for it to be FAQ'd?
Personally, I'd kind of like a full FAQ on just mystic bolts in general. Feels like the wording of the ability is rather odd.
If anyone is on the fence about mystic bolt at higher levels (when all those resistances become an issue), there is a nice interaction between the 'Arcane striker' and 'returning weapon' vigilante talents.
For a two feat investment ('quick draw' and 'clustered shots') whenever something with particularly high resistances turns up just grab a bunch of starknives. The two talents, and a pair of Deliquescent Gloves turns a single +4 'agile' starknife into whats effectively six or seven +4 'Agile' 'Holy' 'Corrosive''returning' +3 extra damage starknives.
Clustered shots lets you punch through any DR or resistances pretty easily. the beauty of it is warlocks should already have all the two weapon fighting and ranged feats needed to make the tactic shine.
Another trick is the 'Familiar Talent.' I'm looking at picking that up at 6 and using improved familiar to get a Pooka familiar at level 7 to become a kind of ranged psuedo-magus.
Warlocks can get a bit more milage out of familiars ability to hold on to touch spells, as their mystic bolts give them combat options other than 'cast a spell every round'. Give a tiny spell storing dagger to the pooka. This lets you full attack with mystic bolts AND get your familiar to deliver a touch spell for two consecutive rounds. (Pooka attacks from invisibility on round one to hit Flat-footed AC and discharges the spell storing dagger). On round two the Pooka discharges the stored touch spell.
On a side note I really like the pooka, as at will flight, invisibility, DR and fast healing mean that it should be able to survive a round or two in a fight and be at full HP by the next time a fight breaks out. Not to mention that having a flying invisible scout allows you and the party to properly prepare for hazards and or fights.
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Warlocks can get a bit more milage out of familiars ability to hold on to touch spells, as their mystic bolts give them combat options other than 'cast a spell every round'. Give a tiny spell storing dagger to the pooka. This lets you full attack with mystic bolts AND get your familiar to deliver a touch spell for two consecutive rounds. (Pooka attacks from invisibility on round one to hit Flat-footed AC and discharges the spell storing dagger). On round two the Pooka discharges the stored touch spell.
I didn't think you could hold the charge on a touch spell and hold weapons at the same time, unless you were a Magus? (Although I think it's one of those issues where there's been a lot of flipping and flopping over the years, so I'm not sure what the current state of affairs on that is...)
If anyone is on the fence about mystic bolt at higher levels (when all those resistances become an issue), there is a nice interaction between the 'Arcane striker' and 'returning weapon' vigilante talents.
For a two feat investment ('quick draw' and 'clustered shots') whenever something with particularly high resistances turns up just grab a bunch of starknives. The two talents, and a pair of Deliquescent Gloves turns a single +4 'agile' starknife into whats effectively six or seven +4 'Agile' 'Holy' 'Corrosive''returning' +3 extra damage starknives.
returning: "It returns to the thrower just before the creature’s next turn" That means a single starknife can make a single attack. No "effectively six or seven +4 'Agile' 'Holy' 'Corrosive''returning' +3 extra damage starknives"
It's cheesy but doable. (at least for round 1)
http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/coreRulebook/combat.html#holding-the-cha rge
The relevant part is "If you don't discharge the spell in the round when you cast the spell, you can hold the charge indefinitely. You can continue to make touch attacks round after round." Mystic bolts are touch attacks.
Playing by the letter of the rules, you can charge up your familiar, full attack and have your familiar discharge the touch spell. (rather than using the spell storing weapon first). round 2 have it go invisible. Spell like ability (no opportunity attack) round 3 the familiar attacks flat-footed ac with the spell storing Dagger.
As for touching weapons, you don't touch or hold the bolts, though you do need a free hand to create or threaten with them.
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returning: "It returns to the thrower just before the creature’s next turn" That means a single starknife can make a single attack. No "effectively six or seven +4 'Agile' 'Holy' 'Corrosive''returning' +3 extra damage starknives"If anyone is on the fence about mystic bolt at higher levels (when all those resistances become an issue), there is a nice interaction between the 'Arcane striker' and 'returning weapon' vigilante talents.
For a two feat investment ('quick draw' and 'clustered shots') whenever something with particularly high resistances turns up just grab a bunch of starknives. The two talents, and a pair of Deliquescent Gloves turns a single +4 'agile' starknife into whats effectively six or seven +4 'Agile' 'Holy' 'Corrosive''returning' +3 extra damage starknives.
Look at the 14th level section of returning weapon. It allows you to copy the magical properties of the first weapon to any mundane copies you can throw that round. at level 14 arcane striker is adding +3 to damage and a special elemental ability (such as shocking, Deliquescent gloves adds the 'corrosive' property, and returning weapon adds the returning property. With the 'Quick Draw' feat I can pull out more star knives as a free action. Returning weapon copies across all the enhancements to every subsequent weapon. This lets you get the full bonus on all thrown weapons for your full attack.
at 16 you upgrade the enhancement 'Arcane striker' gives (e.g. Holy)
returning: "It returns to the thrower just before the creature’s next turn" That means a single starknife can make a single attack. No "effectively six or seven +4 'Agile' 'Holy' 'Corrosive''returning' +3 extra damage starknives"If anyone is on the fence about mystic bolt at higher levels (when all those resistances become an issue), there is a nice interaction between the 'Arcane striker' and 'returning weapon' vigilante talents.
For a two feat investment ('quick draw' and 'clustered shots') whenever something with particularly high resistances turns up just grab a bunch of starknives. The two talents, and a pair of Deliquescent Gloves turns a single +4 'agile' starknife into whats effectively six or seven +4 'Agile' 'Holy' 'Corrosive''returning' +3 extra damage starknives.
Look at the 14th level section of returning weapon. It allows you to copy the magical properties of the first weapon to any mundane copies you can throw that round. at level 14 arcane striker is adding +3 to damage and a special elemental ability (such as shocking, Deliquescent gloves adds the 'corrosive' property, and returning weapon adds the returning property. With the 'Quick Draw' feat I can pull out more star knives as a free action. Returning weapon copies across all the enhancements to every subsequent weapon. This lets you get the full bonus on all thrown weapons for your full attack.
at 16 you upgrade the enhancement 'Arcane striker' gives (e.g. Holy)
I understand you can do that but you failed to note that's what you where doing. Now we all know what steps you're using.
This thread brings up some interesting questions that have me brainstorming, so bear with me here...
Is the Mystic Bolt considered to be part of a Fighter Weapon Group?
If so, is it a valid target for Startoss Style?
Would Startoss Comet allow you to 'chain' a bolt, or does it just automatically dissipate on first hit?
What about if you used, say, a Conductive thrown weapon to channel the bolt through, would the extra damage apply to each hit or just the first?
What about if you went Martial Focus->Ricochet Toss so it bounced back to you for iteratives? Martial Focus would also activate the Weapon Training special on Startoss Style, making it irrelevant if Mystic Bolt was part of a weapon group. Since the bolt only exists when you attack with it, would you be able to TWF with bolts despite the "wielded in one hand" caveat of Startoss?
Mixing thrown weapons with bolts might help get around elemental resistances, and eventually turn the bolts into extra damage on top of thrown weapon attacks. The Startoss chain can add up to +6 damage per hit, and because of Martial Focus would allow that damage to apply to thrown bolts as well.
On the haste thing:
What if you could somehow get access to Divine Power? Surely there's a way, yes? I'm not sure what the way to do that would be, but given all the tricks available to players with high system mastery, can you get it on your Warlock spell list SOMEHOW or otherwise grab it via another means? (Divine Power doesn't specifically list manufactured/natural weapons.)
A Samsaran could if Patron spells are counted as being on the witch list.
Or you could just use the rules for researching a spell and call it "Arcane Power."
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Patron spells are not considered on the basic witch list. Patron spells are added to a particular witch's list.
Also, I don't think deliquescent gloves work because the bolts are not weapons. They're just wielded like weapons. It'd be like trying to wear those gloves and argue that Flame Blade would gain the bonus damage.
arcane strike normally wouldn't work with mystic bolts, but the bolts have a special exception for arcane strike to work. You should double check the FAQ
"Abilities like Arcane Strike that specifically enhance a character’s weapon or weapons themselves never apply to special abilities (with the exception of special abilities like the warlock’s mystic bolts that specifically call out that Arcane Strike applies)."
"In the same vein as abilities like Arcane Strike that affect a character’s weapons, abilities that say “with a weapon,” “with a melee weapon,” and “with a ranged weapon” almost never work with special abilities because such wording is almost always used as shorthand for “manufactured weapon,” “manufactured melee weapon,” and “manufactured ranged weapon.”"
so yeah, pretty sure this shuts down that idea.
Yeah, that part is saying used as part of another thing, like TWF or Rapid shot. We've already moved past the part of arcane strike and stuff that applies to weapons.
Before the FAQ it was unclear if it worked or not. Now the FAQ makes it clear but not everyone in PFS knows of the FAQ.
It's the exception for arcane strike, selecting it with feats, and TWF/rapid strike.
Mystic bolt doesn't have an exception in general for
"In the same vein as abilities like Arcane Strike that affect a character’s weapons, abilities that say “with a weapon,” “with a melee weapon,” and “with a ranged weapon” almost never work with special abilities because such wording is almost always used as shorthand for “manufactured weapon,” “manufactured melee weapon,” and “manufactured ranged weapon.”""
So since deliquescent gloves "If the wearer uses that hand to wield a weapon" it is almost always used as shorthand for “manufactured weapon" which is something that doesn't work for mystic strikes.
Abilities that affect all weapon attacks the warlock makes, such as the arcane striker warlock talent, function with mystic bolts.
Overall I think the misunderstanding is that some people believe there is a special rule for arcane strike affecting the bolt. But the exception is made specifically for the mystic bolt ability, with arcane strike being merely an example. Using deliquescent gloves is perfectly fine.
Interestingly enough the FAQ actually makes a decent argument for haste working on the bolt as well, clarifying that the term "weapon" is commonly used as a shorthand for "manufactured weapon".
On another note, if you can get Haste to work, I think I found a way to make Divine Favor work as well.
Ring of Spell Knowledge II = 6,000g. Put in Divine Favor. Get +3 to your attack and damage as a luck bonus. Not bad.
EDIT: NEVERMIND. It doesn't mention divine spells. Curses.
Abilities that affect all weapon attacks the warlock makes, such as the arcane striker warlock talent, function with mystic bolts.Overall I think the misunderstanding is that some people believe there is a special rule for arcane strike affecting the bolt. But the exception is made specifically for the mystic bolt ability, with arcane strike being merely an example. Using deliquescent gloves is perfectly fine.
Interestingly enough the FAQ actually makes a decent argument for haste working on the bolt as well, clarifying that the term "weapon" is commonly used as a shorthand for "manufactured weapon".
With this all kept in mind, seems like a Warlock who VMCs into Magus should be able to use their arcane pool to buff their Mystic Bolts, as well. Between arcane pool, spellstrike, and three magus arcana, the Magus VMC seems more and morel ike a no-brainer the more I think about it.
what for? Mystic bolts don't fall under any weapon groups.
I'm guessing by attack bonus increases you mean just having full bab?
feats, which feats are you needing?
Because of loss of FCB and assuming you put FCB into HP you don't gain HP.
Because of your spellcasting you can't wear heavier armor.
Fighter's weapon training doesn't work for mystic bolts.
Like I guess if you really needed more feats.
On another note, if you can get Haste to work, I think I found a way to make Divine Favor work as well.Ring of Spell Knowledge II = 6,000g. Put in Divine Favor. Get +3 to your attack and damage as a luck bonus. Not bad.
EDIT: NEVERMIND. It doesn't mention divine spells. Curses.
A Witch with the Devotion or Strength patron can put it in the ring as it would be an Arcane spell, but the Warlock still can't take advantage of it as it's not a spontaneous spellcaster
I don't think the multiclass options discussed here offer any real benefits for the warlock. VMC magus doesn't work out because the arcane pool as written buffs one weapon you are wielding, but you aren't wielding anything while you use the swift action (which you need to activate arcane strike either way). Giving up feats really hurts as well, as you want to get your core feats (TWF, rapid shot) as fast as possible.
Fighter is a trap as he offers very little of value. There are simply not enough feats that increase your mystic bolts damage and the full base attack progression can't compensate for losing spellcasting progression and arcane strike progression.
Something not discussed, but which I think would be kind of neat, is a Warlock whose primary weapon is some kind of Finesse-blade that they draw using a chamber tattoo. Get the whole "Magic Swordsman" thing going on. Mystic Bolts would be their ranged weapon for when they can't close with the enemy.
Oh, damn, you're absolutely right. Didn't even notice that as an issue with VMC Magus, but you're absolutely right. That'll learn me to not read carefully enough.
I mean, I'm still going to take it when I play a warlock, but it just means I'll have to bring a weapon along, and only use Mystic Bolts as a backup. Maybe a rapier - that plays nicely with both Spellstrike and Lethal Grace.
EDIT: Ninja'd by Ventnor. I see we think along similar lines.
haha, it's often seen that losing spells is losing versatility.
And I agree, I don't think going fighter made you more versatile.
bab is +1 accuracy over 4 levels. Getting heroism is +2 accuracy. being pure warlock and getting high enough to cast heroism makes you more accurate then going warlock 5 fighter X.
If you don't have a big feat tree then fighter isn't really helping with feats. So that's the question, which feats are "required" for the build to work that you need to get before you can get to "nice" feats like bonuses to knoweledge.
Mithral kikko is available to anyone and mithral breastplate is with a trait. And there are better dips in my opinion to get medium armor prof than fighter.
As a vigilante you already have full martial prof. so you're not getting any weapon profs from fighter. Meaning you can already use a back up bow.
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Ooooh unchained rogues Dex to damage would that work?
Yes, unchained rogue can get dex to damage, it works. It just can't be done with mystic bolts. mystic bolts aren't weapons they can select for it, nor do they have a str mod to replace with dex.
Ooooh unchained rogues Dex to damage would that work?Yes, unchained rogue can get dex to damage, it works. It just can't be done with mystic bolts. mystic bolts aren't weapons they can select for it, nor do they have a str mod to replace with dex.I think they can be selected as you use weapon finesse with them and they are treated as weapons fur such purposes and their description says they can be selected for such things
Not having STR to damage is the confusing part
If if you don't get Strength to damage with a damage roll, then you can't replace it with anything. Since there's nothing to replace.