Gunslinger vs Gunslinger / Spellslinger


Advice


Hello all!

I am interested in the Gunslinger class. I was doing a little research on it and came across someone who went Gunslinger/Spellslinger then into the Eldritch Knight PrC.

I know that they are two completely different characters in abilities. My question is which is a more reliable way to go if playing in an AP starting at level 1?

I am looking to go straight Gunslinger, but the options of shooting spells also made me think.

Thanks you for any help.


Never go pure Gunslinger. You are always better off dropping the class after level 5.

As for Spellslinger, it seems more trouble than its worth. If you were starting at level 10 or something though, I think it can be pretty strong, especially with the combination of x4 auto critting Disintegrates and similar spells thanks to Named Bullet, but I certainly wouldn't want to level through this.


Eldritch archer magus mixes pretty well with gunslinger if you want to shoot spells, without risking blowing up your gun.


Replace any levels in Gunslinger with Trench Fighter 3 then mix in Spellslinger/Eldritch Archer as necessary. Or skip trench fighter entirely.


avr wrote:
Eldritch archer magus mixes pretty well with gunslinger if you want to shoot spells, without risking blowing up your gun.

I'll need to check out the Eldritch Archer Magus, I haven't heard of that one.

Thanks for all the help so far.

Once I look at the Eldritch Archer Magus I'll post any Q's I may have.


The Eldritch Archer is better for firing basic spells through Ranged Spellstrike Magus-style.

The Spellslinger is better for converting spells into crazy enhancements on a firearm, like using a level 5 spell to turn a +3 pistol into a +5 Flaming, Frost, Shock pistol for 5 minutes with a swift action. When you can do that and then full attack with Haste and Rapid Shot, it makes less sense to be casting spells through a gun.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
BadBird wrote:
+5 Flaming, Frost, Shock

This doesn't actually work. Flaming, Frost, and Shock are all activated by a command given to the weapon and the effects end when a new command is given. This means you can only benefit from one of those features on any given attack. It's still a good ability, just not quite that good.

There are two approaches to using the Spellslinger. One, as mentioned, is to use its Mage Bullet class feature to get massive enhancements on your weapon. This will make a suitable Eldritch Knight, but you probably don't want more than 1 level of Gunslinger since you'll want to get your caster level up there for better enhancements. If you are going for 5 levels in Gunslinger, it's probably not worth it.

The second approach to Spellslinger is 1 level of Spellslinger Wizard then 19 levels in Sorcerer. The goal here is to use the Arcane Gun to its fullest potential while dodging most of the downsides by using Sorcerer spellcasting instead.

You can also do 5 levels of Gunslinger, 5 levels of Wizard (non-Spellslinger) then 10 levels of Eldritch Knight. This works perfectly fine, and will have a good balance of gun combat ability with spellcasting ability. You're best off not using Spellslinger for this one, since you already have dex-to-damage anyways to give you good damage output and will be using wizard spells more for support, battlefield control, and buffing so being a specialist makes more sense.


The real reason to invest in Spellslinger is the x3 crit modifier for spells in conjunction with Named Bullet. That's why Eldritch Archer makes things super-crazy.


Dasrak wrote:
BadBird wrote:
+5 Flaming, Frost, Shock
This doesn't actually work. Flaming, Frost, and Shock are all activated by a command given to the weapon and the effects end when a new command is given. This means you can only benefit from one of those features on any given attack.

I've always understood that special abilities that add a property assume activation. The alternative is that a Magus or Warpriest using a swift action to make a weapon 'Flaming' then needs to spend a standard action to activate the effect that they just magically placed on their weapon. For that matter, what would then dictate the command word? If it's them, why not have the same command word activate everything, so they stack just fine?


BadBird wrote:
I've always understood that special abilities that add a property assume activation. The alternative is that a Magus or Warpriest using a swift action to make a weapon 'Flaming' then needs to spend a standard action to activate the effect that they just magically placed on their weapon. For that matter, what would then dictate the command word? If it's them, why not have the same command word activate everything, so they stack just fine?

Agreed.

I thought there was a rule somewhere that Flaming and Frost couldn't be active on the same weapon at the same time (because they're opposing elements), but now I can't find it.

Did I make that up? or was it from an older edition? or am I just bad at rules-fu?


MrCharisma wrote:
BadBird wrote:
I've always understood that special abilities that add a property assume activation. The alternative is that a Magus or Warpriest using a swift action to make a weapon 'Flaming' then needs to spend a standard action to activate the effect that they just magically placed on their weapon. For that matter, what would then dictate the command word? If it's them, why not have the same command word activate everything, so they stack just fine?

Agreed.

I thought there was a rule somewhere that Flaming and Frost couldn't be active on the same weapon at the same time (because they're opposing elements), but now I can't find it.

Did I make that up? or was it from an older edition? or am I just bad at rules-fu?

Definitely not from 3.X, there were printed examples of such weapons and nothing I remember seeing contradicting the combo. The only restriction I remember is that you can't take the same ability twice to have a +1 flaming flaming weapon, or similar.


avr wrote:
Definitely not from 3.X, there were printed examples of such weapons and nothing I remember seeing contradicting the combo. The only restriction I remember is that you can't take the same ability twice to have a +1 flaming flaming weapon, or similar.

I probably made it up. I mean it makes sense right? But with that in mind I'm totally OK being wrong her. Coolio.


I recently ran a Gunslinger5/Spellslinger1/Eldritch Archer1. My reasons for this combo were gun5 for dex damage, spellslinger1 for some xtra abilities and spells mostly for flavor and crafting stuff, then eldritch archer to start along the ranged spell strike. Spellslinger was for spells like fabricate bullets and abundant ammo for crafting and maintaining a supply of cool bullets.

PFS Legal Fabricate Bullets
Source Ultimate Combat pg. 1 (Amazon)
School transmutation; Level arcanist 1, red mantis assassin 1, sorcerer/wizard 1
Casting
Casting Time 1 round
Components V, S, M (1 pound of lead or other soft metal worth 2 gp)
Effect
Range touch
Target 1 pound of soft metal
Duration instantaneous
Saving Throw none; Spell Resistance no
Description
You convert 1 pound of lead into bullets. When you cast this spell, you decide whether you create normal sling bullets, firearm bullets, or firearm pellets. The spell creates two sling bullets, 30 firearm bullets, or 10 uses of pellets.

The Dm allowed me to use stuff like copper and silver coins, rings and amulets (non magical stuff) to cast the spell on so i was never short on ammo.

PFS Legal Abundant Ammunition
Source Ultimate Combat pg. 1 (Amazon)
School conjuration (summoning); Level arcanist 1, bard 1, cleric/oracle 1, hunter 1, psychic 1, ranger 1, skald 1, sorcerer/wizard 1, warpriest 1
Casting
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S, M/DF (a single piece of ammunition)
Effect
Range
Target one container touched
Duration 1 minute/level
Saving Throw none; Spell Resistance no
Description
When cast on a container such as a quiver or a pouch that contains nonmagical ammunition or shuriken (including masterwork ammunition or shuriken), at the start of each round this spell replaces any ammunition taken from the container the round before. The ammunition taken from the container the round before vanishes. If, after casting this spell, you cast a spell that enhances projectiles, such as align weapon or greater magic weapon, on the same container, all projectiles this spell conjures are affected by that spell.

This allowed me to have an endless supply of alchemical cartridges for combat. Also the wizard lvl gave me some much needed will saves, a second gun in which i crafted a double barrel pistol. After this i started down the eldritch archer path.

Now for the time i got to play him, things were working out well, but our Dm has been out sick for awhile so that game has been put on hold. I dont see us playing that quest for awhile but all in all i was happy with how the char turned out


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
avr wrote:
Definitely not from 3.X, there were printed examples of such weapons and nothing I remember seeing contradicting the combo.

I just checked, and the same text is there in the 3.5 rules.

d20srd wrote:
Upon command, a flaming weapon is sheathed in fire ... The effect remains until another command is given...

This same text appears in every weapon enhancement that grants elemental damage, but not in other damage-dealing enhancements such as Bane, Holy or Vicious. If you give a command to activate a shocking property, your previous command to activate a flaming property would end.

As for published works that contain weapons that run afoul of this rule ... it's not exactly unprecedented for authors to be unaware of an obscure rule.


The "until another command is given" is for the specific deactivation of the flaming enhancement.

In the 3.5 FAQ this situation was addressed:

Quote:
There’s nothing illogical about a flaming, frost, shock weapon (at least not within any framework that allows weapons to generate energy in the first place), and there’s no rule against such weapons (think of the weapon as having fiery, frosty, shocking flames). The character creating such a weapon decides how it can be activated. Most such weapons probably are made so that the wielders can activate all three powers simultaneously, or activate them one at a time, as desired.


I've worked on building something like this for a friend, and frankly, I simply found 1 Gunslinger 1 (Siege Gunner, though don't feel obligated to use splash weapons)/19 Magus (Eldritch Archer) to be the superior option and does the 'Shoot spells' concept far more smoothly.

Free access to more powerful weapons as an arcane bond item (in Golarion, that means a masterwork revolver), flurry with a pistol targeting touch AC using ray of frost or acid splash (prepare according to your need), and getting the fatest crit multiplier possible. Not that you will be critting reliably in any way with this build but it is still going to f&@%ing HURT when it happens. If you want to use a splash weapon, you will be happy to know that there is some good synergy with it as well, as each creature within the splash weapons attack radius is attacked, rather than forced to make a save, so you get to use rays like Scorching Ray and target everyone. Consider a Culverin, taking Musket Master instead, which means 3 levels in rather than 1.

You could go Wizard (Spellslinger) 1/Magus (Eldritch Archer) but then you need to get Amateur Gunslinger, have a decent Wisdom score, and waste a feat. Frankly, you lose out on nothing by taking Gunslinger for your first level. and out really nothing much out of the Spellslinger level as you cannot Spell Combat with wizard spells.


Gunslinger 5/Inquisitor X is pretty awesome. Specially with the Sanctified Slayer archetype.


It's funny, I'm really not a fan of the gunslinger class.
Generally I don't like guns in high fantasy, but I can get over that, I just don't like the way they did the gunslinger class...
...but I absolutely love it when mixed with a spell-casting class. Like, gunslinger/magus or gunslinger/inquisitor or gunslinger/(anything really).
I wonder what that says about me? 0_o

(Heh, now that I'm thinking about it I want to see if gunslinger/druid is viable)


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Gunslinger/ Urban Druid can get Divine Favor, so it can't be all bad.


Full spell-casting makes anythint viable... XD

That said... Most of the Druid's main strengths have little to no sinergy with firearms. I suppose turning into an Air Elemental for the Dex bonus is a decent choice, though.

Still, it's probably the worst spell-casting match for a Gunslinger.


Spellslinger 1 / Druid X works tho'. There's just enough druid spells which get a benefit to make it worthwhile; your gun will be shooting some weird stuff.


It's funny, after my last post I decided to check out the Bizarre Milticlass Combinations thread and the MOST RECENT POST was a gunslinger/druid. Apparently I'm not as original as I thought. =D

I like Druid (or cleric etc) because it gets 3/4 BAB, so it doesn't completely ruin your gun-tactics just to get those high level spells. Also coz it's hilarious.

Has anyone here actually done it?

(Feel free to get back to helping the OP, I'm purely theory-crafting here so if this derails the thread too much I'll feel bad =P )


So I did my looking and I think I'll be going gunslinger 5/ Eldrtich Archer Magus X.

My question is on the gun. I see where when you roll a 1 on a pistol it can miss fire/jam. Does making it MW our making it magical get rid of that or anything?

I know it's not a new class but I am new to it.


Sorry, nope. To reduce the misfire chance, you need to get a reliable enchantment put onto the gun.

Thankfully, as a Gunslinger (that isn't a Mysterious Stranger), you can clear the broken condition as a standard action while you have grit available, or spend grit to do it as a swift using the Quick Clear deed.

Utilising paper alchemical cartridges (which you will if you are using pistols, as that is the only way to get your iterative attacks off with any gun that doesn't have a higher capacity than one and isn't two-handed, which you NEED to be a Musket Master gunslinger to reduce reloading to a free action, and even then, the only way to completely reload a firearm in one turn and as a free action) will also cause the misfire chance to increase.

Though, if you get a revolver as your arcane bonded weapon (this is a thing you can do in Golarion, they are very rare but available for purchase), you use metal cartridges, which keeps the misfire chance to 1, and has a capacity of 6 bullets, so you don't have to reload as often (and keep your DM from being annoyed about excessive free action usage), and also decreases the reload time by one step as they are treated as alchemical cartridges. I'd recommend getting one. They are pretty good and reliable, even if the cost of metal cartridges is higher than paper. And since you get it for free as an Eldritch Archer, there's no reason not to.


I'm looking forward to this character. I am going Tiefling. Here is my starting stat line with 15 point buy.
Str: 8 -1
Dex: 17 +3
Con: 13 +1
Int: 14 +2
Wis: 14 +2
Cha: 8 -1

I was going to pick the racial resistance that gives one resistance, and 1 Nat armor.
I am also picking up the tail option.


Tiefling (especially with the tail) is a good choice, but check out the encumbrance rules and how much guns and stuff weigh - and then increase your strength!

I was the person who played a gunslinger5/spellslinger5/Eldritch Knight and then wrote a guide to point out my mistakes.

Could you let us know how your character performs in practice, please?

Oh, and Dasrak is both right and completely wrong about how elemental enhancements work: he's right because the rules as written in the rulebooks do seem to work that way; he's wrong because they have been repeatedly clarified to be 'always activated as soon as the weapon is drawn without needing to be individually activated'. I'm on my phone otherwise I'd add links - a simple search should find some.

This is a balance issue because if you insist on individually activating each element, the enchantments aren't worth having. Instead, the command words are so you can turn them off if don't want them on for a particular fight.


Gilarius wrote:
Tiefling (especially with the tail) is a good choice, but check out the encumbrance rules and how much guns and stuff weigh - and then increase your strength!

Yeah I know it's low. I should only buy a 14 Dex so it comes to a 16. I can put those two points in Str to make that 10 again. I really wanted to up that Dex.

Gilarius wrote:
Could you let us know how your character performs in practice, please?

Yes, I will let everyone know. I'm looking forward to playing this character.

Gilarius, you said you made a guide where you went Gunslinger/Spellslinger/Eldritch Knight. What are your thoughts on going Gunslinger/ Eldritch Archer Magus vs the way you had went?


I have a question about the Gunsmithing feat.

Gunsmithing:
You know the secrets of repairing and restoring firearms.

Benefit: If you have access to a gunsmith's kit, you can create and restore firearms, craft bullets, and mix black powder for all types of firearms. You do not need to make a Craft check to create firearms and ammunition or to restore firearms.

Crafting Firearms: You can craft any early firearm for a cost in raw materials equal to half the price of the firearm. At your GM’s discretion, you can craft advanced firearms for a cost in raw materials equal to half the price of the firearm. Crafting a firearm in this way takes 1 day of work for every 1,000 gp of the firearm’s price (minimum 1 day).

Crafting Ammunition: You can craft bullets, pellets, and black powder for a cost in raw materials equal to 10% of the price. If you have at least 1 rank in Craft (alchemy), you can craft alchemical cartridges for a cost in raw materials equal to half the price of the cartridge. At your GM’s discretion, you can craft metal cartridges for a cost in raw materials equal to half the cost of the cartridge. Crafting bullets, black powder, or cartridges takes 1 day of work for every 1,000 gp of ammunition (minimum 1 day).

Restoring a Broken Firearm: Each day, with an hour’s worth of work, you can use this feat to repair a single firearm with the broken condition. You can take time during a rest period to restore a broken firearm with this feat.

Special: If you are a gunslinger, this feat grants the following additional benefit. You can use this feat to repair and restore your initial, battered weapon. It costs 300 gp and 1 day of work to upgrade it to a masterwork firearm of its type.

Under the crafting firearms description it allows you to craft firearms at half the price. Is this only the base gun, or can you make them magical. Also it does not say what skill to use to do so, does it not need a check?


No, without further feats you can't make any magic items.

There is no skill or check listed for making a firearm so RAW no check is required.


I know you picked Gunslinger for Dex to damage, but have you thought of Warlord? You can't really do more than two attacks a turn as Gunslinger, and that is only if you have your gun loaded at the start.

Warlord Desperado archetype gets Rapid Reload at level 2, and reloading weapons count as one size lower at level 5. Meaning a one handed pistol reloads as a light/one-handed crossbow (free action with rapid reload) and a two handed firearm now reloads as a one handed pistol (move action with rapid reload).

You also gain a +1 to attack rolls, damage rolls, and CMB whenever in a Tempest Gale or Solar Wind stance. (They are the only good ranged stances, why would you be in anything else?). You can pick up a stance at level 5 that adds your Cha to damage and gives you a small bonus to CMB and save DCs of Tempest Gale.

Martial strikes won't be amazingly useful since you can't use them with Magus, but you can use Boosts and counters to help out since they are a swift/intimidate action.


RelicBlackOUT wrote:


I was going to pick the racial resistance that gives one resistance, and 1 Nat armor.

Personally I just never find this useful. Your mileage may vary.

Also keep in mind if you go Eldritch Archer you get a free arcane bonded gun, ideally this is a Revolver, and since it's an arcane bond, adding enhancements and enchants only cost half price and do not require the relevant item creation feats.

SorrySleeping wrote:
I know you picked Gunslinger for Dex to damage, but have you thought of Warlord?

Everyone knows DSPs gun using classes/archetypes blow away the Gunslinger. But it's 3pp and most DMs don't allow it.

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