Hawk Kriegsman's page

Once the PCs hit 5th level the whole you can't bring guns to social events disappears. Why? Null-Space Chamber MK1. My players are always armed even when they are not openly armed. The only drawback is a minor 1 full round to get the weapon drawn.

The thing with Sci Fi films like Star Wars, their weapon tech is pretty set, your weapon tech doesn't really get better so he is basically starting the films with his 'near epic' level pistol (and probably much higher level then most PCs).

Actually if we go by the Stars Wars Revised RPG or Star Wars Sage Han's pistol is the same one a 1st level character can start out with. The pistol is the pistol. It does not get better, the wielder of the weapon gets better.

I prefer Cayden Cailean brand healing serums. Drink till you feel better, one way or another.

Or don't feel anything at all!

You are most at risk of taking damage while casting when a spell’s casting time is 1 round or longer, you have provoked an attack of opportunity, or a foe readied an action to attack you when you began to cast.

I am playing within the rules as written. It clearly states that you can ready an action to attack a caster when they begin to cast.

There is no debating this. It is right there in the rule book.

Does it contradict other rules in the rule book? Yes probably.

In the end it all comes down to the GM defining what they want a triggering action to be at there table.

I will accept if the bad guy begins to:
move
shoot
cast
talk
etc.....

To me if you cannot use all readied actions to interrupt someone from doing something there really is no point in taking a readied action.

It does not break game balance as if the players can do it, the the bad guys can do it also.

Quote:

You are most at risk of taking damage while casting when a spell’s casting time is 1 round or longer, you have provoked an attack of opportunity, or a foe readied an action to attack you when you began to cast.

Yes indeed it does say this on page 331 of the core rule book and this is EXACTLY how I have played it at my table.

You can be interrupted by a readied action. The triggering action is "begin to cast." This readied action takes place after the triggering event. Which just so happens to happen before the spell comes into effect. This is not contradictory as a standard action is not an action but an action type. An action type is a defined term. The trigger for a readied action does not have to be a combat action. If you wanted to you could set the trigger to be when some one blinks, when the water hanging from a stalactite finally drops, or even when someone draws their archaic sword...

Again exactly how I have played it at my table.

If my players state to the bad guy. "Drop the weapon and surrender or you will be shot." and then states to me "If the bad guy does anything other than drop the weapon and surrender I shoot him."

If the bad guy does anything but drop the weapon I will allow the player to shoot him.

The triggering event was the bad guy doing anything but dropping the weapon.

I will give you a classic movie example of a readied action.

The final scene in Dirty Harry is all about a readied action interrupting an action.

Dirty Harry gives his "well punk, do you feel lucky?" while having his 44 pointed right at Scorpio. Scorpio reaches for the gun but BEFORE he grabs it he is shot dead.

The triggering event was reaching for the gun, NOT actually grabbing the gun.

As some would play it per their interpretation of the rules. Scorpio would have actually grabbed the gun and then been shot.

For the limited firing, I have to say I like this rule as it makes tracking weapons (which have higher damage potential) a ressource which has to be managed.

You can't go wrong with linked light torpedo launchers 4d8 damage speed 16 and unlimited fire. All for 20 BP (or 22 BP if in a turret). I allow tracking weapons to be linked.

Some of the things I have done to spice up (i.e. more dangerous for the players) combat encounters are:

Weapon Specialization is equal to your level regardless of the weapon type.

Grenades now benefit from Weapon Specialization.

Operatives may trick attack with a sniper rifle provided they are over the normal range increment for a snipe rifle (around 80 feet). They target must be unaware of them and the operative can only use stealth for this house rule trick attack.

I use the critical hit deck and a body hit location chart to add flavor to critical hits.

Critical Hits are subtracted directly from hit points.

For every 30 points of damage a PC/creature takes, the PC/creature takes a critical hit.

All critical hits are far more detailed than the card indicate. These are adjudicated on the fly based on the weapon type and the amount of damage done.

For Example; Extreme Bludgeoning: Back Breaker in addition to to the triple damage it does it is also going to break a bone/bones depending on the location hit. This will also result in a Fort Save (any where from 15 to 30 depending on what is broken/maimed) or the player is stunned (i.e. looking at / holding the maimed part of their body in horror and shock)

I used this same critical system in Pathfinder for years. My player's love it.

It adds real drama when the melee combatant goes down with a skull fracture in the middle of a combat and needs to be rescued by the other party members to prevent the melee combatant from being the target of a coup de grace as they are (most likely) lying there unconscious.

I agree! Maybe "Rolfstomps" will be a brand of Vesk combat boots in the next visit to the equipment store...

Well played sir!

I have house rules that the price of grenades is for a box of 6.

I also allow full weapon specialization for grenades.

Makes them somewhat useful.

My players never buy grenades. They loot them.

In my games the main FTL is warp drive. Gates, wormholes and Mass Effect accelerators also exist.

Drift drive is a ancient and legendary form of FTL travel with few working examples in the galaxies.

My game setting is a hybrid mix of Mass Effect Milky Way, Mass Effect Andromeda, the Reef from Destiny, The Pact Worlds & The Star Wars galaxy to represent the Azlanti Star empire.

roflstomps

Great word. LOL!

Consider it pinched.

Is that really a viable expectation? It's a very brief description of how the item works. Can you reasonably expect it to go into such a corner case as a disguised individual? It doesn't say anything about a polymorphed individual either. Is this supposed to spot shapeshifters as well?

At my table yes it is. Because of the brief description on how it works it leaves me the GM to fill in the details on how I believe it works in my table.

It clearly states it is a special skill check. Not a normal one. So I treat it as special.

For polymorphed creatures I have ruled at my table that you take on the scientific characteristics of the form that they have been changed into.

So human polymorphed into a horse while show up on the microlab as a horse.

As a rule of thumb at my table shapeshifters (depending on the description of how they shape change) would ID as the form they are currently in with every 5 exceeding reveal something odd or off about the creature.

Rules in this game are nested. The biolab refers you to the creature ID rules, and tells you to use those as if you had rolled a 20 to ID the creature.

Yes rules are nested and interact with each other. I am well aware.

You can't just make an argument in one direction from one piece of data.

I actually was not making an argument. I was stating how I rule at at my table. I am not telling anyone that does it differently than I do the are wrong nor am I stating that my way is the only way it should be done.

Just stating how I rule it. No more no less.

But ANYONE can use biological knowledge to identify a creature. The only difference is they need to roll as opposed to just plopping the die down with the 20 up. By your argument a human can't disguise themselves as anything else, no matter how high their score or what equipment they use (including physically changing their shape), because half of john Q public can get a 10 on a life science check without any training at all.

Yes anyone can, but only the biohacker with a microlab can ID disguised creatures.

Everyone else has to get through the disguise first and then can attempt to ID a creature.

That's how I run it at my table.

I understand that you don't like it and disagree.

I am not trying to change your mind and you are not going to change mine.

In my games I run it just as written.

As long as you have your custom microlab, as a move action you can target a creature within your line of sight and within the microlab’s range (60 feet at 1st level) and attempt a special skill check to identify it. If the creature is living, this is a Life Science check. If it is unliving, it’s a Physical Science check. The DC of this check is determined by the creature’s rarity, as presented on the Creature Rarity table on page 133 of the Core Rulebook. You can attempt this check untrained regardless of the DC, and you always treat your die roll result as a 20.

It says nothing about the creature being disguised or not. So to me the creature being disguised or not is irrelevant.

You are not using perception to see through a disguise.

You are using science to ID a creature.

Two completely different processes.

I agree with Garretmander 100% on how to reveal information on a disguised creature and adjudicate it that way.

I have house ruled that the undead immunity to mind-affecting effects only applies if the undead has an INT of - (no score). Anything with an INT score indicates to me it has a mind and is subject to mind-affecting effects.

Hawk Kriegsman wrote:

Sorry I was not clear HK double tap = (damage dice rolled twice) + weapon specialization.

It is not as overpowered as you think.

There are plenty of draw backs to it. It has to be used within a first range increment. With small arms that is usually 30 to 60 feet, which means the PCs classes in my groups that have taken it (2 envoys and 2 mystics) are dangerously close to being engaged in melee.

You have to burn a feat for it.

In the 5 groups I am running, no soldier, technomancer or operative has taken it as it is not all that beneficial to them as they have something better they can use (ie operative trick attack or technomancer spells).

Also in my game if the PCs can do it so can the bad guys. So it is balanced.

Ahh I see. It still seems a bit strong compared to deadly aim, but I can see how the rules regarding range and small arms limit it somewhat.

And it certainly won't see play by most of the longarm+ classes. But it certainly can free up feats from the small arm classes that normally take longarm+ from feats.

This actually was scrapped in the last couple of weeks as the -2 to hit was too big a negative for the 3/4 BAB characters that had it.

So since weapon specialization at my table gives full level bonus no matter what the weapon, HK double tap now looks like this:

+1 to hit with damage bonus of level x1.5 (rounded down). Uses 2 ammunition.

So a 10th level character would get 1dx +15 damage with their small arms instead of 1dx +10.

Not game breaking by any stretch.

No, it's 'Critical hits are so powerful, they make critical hit effects useless'.

Ah......I see now. Thanks.

Problem is often the fact that they have *too much* of a bite already. Criticals so commonly quickly lead to a monster's death that the extra effects like stun or loss of a limb often have zero impact on the fight.

For example, if an enemy takes 4 hits to kill:

Crit after it got hit 3 times: The crit damage will likely take it out
Crit after it got hit 2 times: The crit damage will possibly take it out
Crit after it got hit 1 times: It only needs to take one more hit (from you or your party) to die before its turn comes around and the crit effects have a chance to matter.
Crit on a fresh enemy: It only needs to take ~two or three hits before its turn for the crit effects not to matter.

Crit effects that are just bonus damage at the start tend to be the best, with ones that rely on more things going right ending up being straight up trap options.

So help me out here. Now in this post you say critical hits are too powerful.

However you start this thread by stating critical hits are useless.

So I'm working on developing a model to prove how useless critical hit effects are (I've personally only ever seen one have in impact on a fight twice ever)

Which is it?

On of things I have done with Critical Hits is have them come directly off hit points.

Secondly I highly recommend the critical hit deck. It has some meaningful critical effects in there from stun & stagger, to loss of limb, to some save or die potentials.

Critical hits at my table have some bite.

It is covered very basically in the crew quarters description.

More or less I envision it as:

Common: You have the equivalent of a Culinary Synthesizer Mark I

Good: You have the equivalent of a Culinary Synthesizer Mark II or III

Luxurious: You have the equivalent of a Culinary Synthesizer Mark III and have the capacity to store and prepare fresh food on board.

Good points by all.

I picked up a few things that I can impart to my players (or use against them.....LOL).

Clearly the people I play with approach the game completely differently then those that post here.

Quote:

Looking at the 7th level sheet of the operative in my 12th level group she could go with Stealth at +18 or Sense Motive at +14 with +4 bonus from Detective specialization (so +18).

So 7 ranks sense motive, +3 class skill, +3 insight and +1 for wisdom? That is honestly a lower TA skill modifier than I usually see.

Yes 7 ranks sense motive, +3 class skill, +3 operatives edge, +1 Wisdom bonus for +14 and then the +4 for detective specialization.

I believe that the player was taking into account the +4 detective specialization when allocation points to stats.

The Dex is +18 and the is maxed pretty well.

7 skill ranks, +3 class skill, +3 operative's edge, +5 Dex Modifier.

Not sure ho much higher it could be at level 7.

Trick attack: If you succeed at the check, you deal 1d4 additional damage and the target is flat-footed.

Yes I have missed the flat-footed part. So 10% more hits for the operative.

Debilitating trick: When you hit an enemy with a trick attack, you can make the creature flat-footed or off-target until the beginning of your next turn

So when an operative attacks There's the skill check, if the check succeeds the target is flat footed vs. the operatives attack. At 4th level if the attack hits the opponent stays flat footed

Yes knew and was implementing this part. When are operatives hit they invariably made the target flat-footed.

Specialization Skill Mastery 7th Level

When attempting a skill check with a skill in which you have the Skill Focus feat, you can take 10 even if stress or distractions would normally prevent you from doing so.

So at level 7 the operative has skill focus in a feat for their trick attack, which they can use take 10 for and should never miss the skill check.(if you're fighting something thats 7cr above you? Run)

Your operative not doing this is the only reason I can see for them being so much less accurate than the soldier.

Yep, know and use all this. I use a lot of SFS scenarios which are designed for 6 players. So they APL of six 7th level PCs is 8. So a challenging encounter is CR9 and Hard CR 10.

Looking at the 7th level sheet of the operative in my 12th level group she could go with Stealth at +18 or Sense Motive at +14 with +4 bonus from Detective specialization (so +18).

She cannot take 10 on a Cr 9 or high creature. So while this works great for a CR 9 made of 2 CR7 creatures its of no help on a single CR 9 creature.

So the take 10 while nice is a bit over rated to me

... yes. I'm trying to pare back the operative from "the best at every skill" to "the jack of all trades" or even better "substantially different at skills to warrant other characters existing outside of combat"

I don't see why the operative has to be better at the other classes main skill to be better at skills. Its a fallacy of composition.

As I said elsewhere they are very good at everything but unless maxed out in INT and WIS they will not beat out the technomacher on INT skills or the mystic on WIS skills.

10 skill points per level base (effectively, since they get 2 free skill points for their specialization skills)

+3 starting int

+1 int bonus at 4

+1 int bonus for the +2 part of a +2/+4 upgrade at 7th.

15 per level is pretty easy at 7th.

I suppose you could start an operative with a 16 Int.

I assume you mean +1 at level 5?

And finally you are talking about spending 1,400 credits for a stat up grade at level 7?

Yep that is 15. Still will need an expert for Diplomacy, Life Science, Mysticism and Physical Science, however.

Since bad dice isn't an operative feature (after level 7 anyway) what's causing this? Thats a +6 difference in hit bonus, which I really don't see.

Probably not expressed the best way by me. At 10th level a soldier's BAB is +10 and an operative's is +7. 7 is 30% less than 10 in terms of a percentage but is is only 3 different on a die 20 which is really only 15%

Quote:

How are the always attacking flat footed AC after level 7?

Being able to Take 10 on their trick attack skill check basically means they will always succeed against something that they don't need to be desperately fleeing from.

Well hell, I missed that little piece about the target being flat-footed to your attack.

Might explain a bit of the operatives attack issues at my table.

They should be hitting 10% more of the time.

Thanks for that.

Operatives usually attack flat footed AC and after level 7 are always attacking flat footed AC. Flat footed will make up for their BAB till level 9. Their accuracy isn't that far below a soldiers.

How are the always attacking flat footed AC after level 7?

Their damage is nothing to sneeze at, particularly if the soldier hasn't upgraded their weapon in a while.

If they hit, which is on average 25 to 30% less than a soldier.

I play mostly SFS scenarios, so I see a large variety of games with different groups. If operatives aren't dominating your game its probably not a very skill heavy one. (or any time there's a skill check its at a dinner party...)

As do I. In fact my games are in fact quite skill heavy.

... How on earth do you reach the completely wrong conclusion that I"m under valuing this? How on earth could I value something more than call it an I win button and something that needs a change?

I think you misunderstood my response.

What I was trying to say was. If you increase OTHER classes skill abilities you devalue the operative's main ability, which is skill excellence.

In practice, Operatives being the skill characters means they dominate every minute of the game outside of combat. It's unsustainable. No one class is THE combat class, and Operative isn't far enough behind in combat to justify being the undisputed king of the rest of the game. In fact, they're stronger in combat than all casters, and freqently top out on damage contributions in combat simply because of how easy it is for them to get into the optimally effective position.

In my experience that is just not the case.

They have 16 class skills but it is unlikely that they get 16 skill points per level. Yes you can get there if you make an int based operative, but then you are lacking elsewhere ability wise.

Unless you spend feats to add class skills, they should not be dominating Diplomacy, Life Science, Mysticism, or Physical Science.

They do not trump the expertise die of the envoy in the envoy's selected skills.

They usually don't trump intelligence based skills compared to a technomancer (who will have his INT maxed out) or the wisdom based skills of a mystic (who will have his WIS maxed out).

Looking at the PCs of my 10th level group the Technomancer beats the operative out in every single INT skill and the Mystic beats out the operative in every single WIS skill.

The soldier is a superior combatant to the operative.

Yes it is true that at 7th level the operative almost always is in position to make a trick attack they are hitting about 25% to 30% less of the time than a solider (assuming same Dex).

I am not so sure that the operative is superior to a spell caster in combat due to the number of different things a caster can do to impede/cripple the enemy without actually causing damage.

And no one is different or specialized from anyone else or has their moment to do their thing. It's the complete opposite problem from the operative.

But that wasn't the proposed solution. While everyone is good at their thing, each individual character only gets 2 things (usually). So what problems would that run into?

Well if you are different and specialized then you will be really good at some things and not others.

The operative is no different.

The operative is really good at skills that's about it.

They are only ok at combat. They don't hit as often as a soldier to make trick attack that big of a deal and sniper rifles stink.

If operatives are dominating your game, maybe look at your game. They don't dominate my games, so I see no problem.

The problem is you devalue the operatives one big advantage: high skills and the ability to succeed at difficult tasks when others most likely will fail.

Hawk Kriegsman wrote:

BigNorseWolf wrote:

Hawk Kriegsman wrote:

The problem with tweaking things in the game (and yes I have tweaked) is the consequences of the tweaking.

Ok, so what happens if we set the other class abilities at one or two higher than operatives edge of the same level?

Depends on the class, the ability, your game, your players, etc.

All of em. Whatever the classes "you get this bonus to two skills" ability is. Mystic connection skills, bypass, the biohackers studious/instinctive bonus, ... what breaks?

My initial response was related to removing/reducing operative's edge.

Adding to classes generally does not break anything. Just makes things easier for the PC in question.

I suppose the easiest thing to do would be to give everyone 8 skills per level, +1 BAB per level, good save bonus to all saves, 7 HP and SP per level, all skills are class skills and the ability to cast mystic and technomancer spells.

No no one is left out of anything and everyone can do everything.

Hawk Kriegsman wrote:

The problem with tweaking things in the game (and yes I have tweaked) is the consequences of the tweaking.

Ok, so what happens if we set the other class abilities at one or two higher than operatives edge of the same level?

Depends on the class, the ability, your game, your players, etc.

Valid points Hawk, but also shows a problem of the system.

If a normal skill DC is so high that only a character with an optimized skill levels can suceed in it, something in the basic system is wrong.

Also why does the operative do all this stuff (finding the trap & disableing it)? Why not let players work together (the one with the high WIS/Perception spot the trap and the mechanic disables it)?

Of course, if your party has no problem with it, than you don't need to change anything.

I personally don't have a problem with traps being difficult to detect and disarm.

As for working together of course my players do, they just let the best PC for each job do their thing.

In my 12th level group could have either/both mystics look for traps (21 perception with 1 aiding for a +23 chance) and certainly if it is a mystical trap the 12th level operative has to step aside and let the mystics do their thing with regards to disarming it.

In my 10th level group the operative, mechanic, mystic or ranger (3rd party material) all have an equal chance to spot but disarming engineering traps falls to the technomancer and mechanic, while the mystic traps are handled by the tecnomacher and mystic.

I really try hard to make sure all PCs get their 15 minutes over the course of a session or at least during an adventure.

I guess it comes down to your players.

If they feel the operative is stealing the show then I guess you suggest that everyone plays an operative, make more opportunities for the others to shine or tweak operatives.

I guess I am very fortunate to have players who are satisfied with successfully completing adventures and don't really care that much about who did what, to whom or how much they did. They truly think in terms of a team effort and accomplishment.

The problem with tweaking things in the game (and yes I have tweaked) is the consequences of the tweaking.

Lets just look at traps.

Removing/limiting operative's edge makes traps a death sentence for a party.

My 12th level group's operative has a Perception of 25. Removing operative's edge would make that 21.

A 12th level trap has a spot DC of 38. As the current rules are written the operative only has a 40% chance of spotting the trap. Removing operative's edge knocks that down to 20%.

Now lets say they spot the trap. My 12th level group's operative has a 23 engineering. Without operative's edge it is 19.

The engineering DC to disable a trap is 33. With operative's edge the operative has a 55% of disabling the trap with out it it is 35%.

A DC 12 trap deals 12d12+5 damage. That's a lot of damage.

Now I know there are things to assist (aid other, took kits, etc) to assist in finding and deactivating traps, but not enough to overcome removing operative's edge.

Neither I or my player's find operatives out of line with any other class. All classes have something they are good at and they have things they not good at.

In the five 6 PC groups I run operative PCs have done no more or less than the other classes in my games.

I have to say I must be the luckiest last gen x-box one player on the planet.

I have played a few times up to Act 2 just messing around to get a feel for the game for about 50 hours and I am on a dedicated playthrough now and I am at 40 hours.

I have had exactly 3 CTD in that time. I get that per hour playing modded Skyrim.

I have had the occasional item that I can't pick up or guy playing guitar with no actual guitar, but nothing even remotely making it unplayable.

I believe the game will get even better as the patch and fix stuff.

I agree with Werthead's review.

I will also second it is far better driving around the map on a motorcycle than via auto.

For the heroic PC I would give them an automatic critical with no Ref save for half (2x damage and a draw from the critical hit deck.). No damage to anyone else.

If a heroic NPC jumps on the grenade they die.

OK I will have a go at this.

Answer to question #1:

No unless stated otherwise darkvision works no differently than normal vision. No beams.

Answer to question #2:

No it does not stop shooting beams. See below quote.

Biotech mostly operates by the same rules as cybernetics and uses the
same implantation slots.

How ever as a GM I most likely would house rule that adaptive biochains change the eyesight at a DNA level and allow the dark vision to be natural in nature. So no beams.

Hope that helps.

To all the folks that have complained that they just can't report various crimes, plots and the like to the authorities to deal with, I ask you this.

Did you or your players do this in PF1 or did they take the role of heroes?

In Rise of the Runelords did they report back to Sandpoint's sheriff and then call it a day or did they act like heroes?

In Curse of the Crimson Throne when they start uncovering oddities and plots did they report them to the Temple of Abadar and head off to a nearby tavern or did they act like heroes?

In Second Darkness when asked to take the form of Drow and go into the Darklands under cover, did they thanks but no thanks your on your own or did they act like heroes?

And so on and so on and so on.

I don't ever recall seeing post complaining that their players could not report sinister doings and not be able to walk away.

The whole point of adventures if the players to be the stars of the show, not to say well the authorities should handle this.

You know who goes and asks the authorities to solve problems?

NPCs

If you want others to do the heavy lifting for you I would suggest you play "Computers and Cubicles". No risk, no reward, no fame, no satisfaction.

I GM and players play to get away from C&C not to embrace it in our free time.

VDF = Verces Defense Forces
CPC = Cuvacara Police Craft

Now... Do you mean just full blown double damage, like roll weapon dice twice AND add weapon spec twice? Or is this just weapon dice twice?

I mean honestly, either way, it's a bit absurd. You're essentially getting a full attack out of a standard action. But only with a -2 penalty. That's outright better than all the other options that allow a standard action double attack, and bound better than any form of full attacking, even with the best penalty reductions.

The abstraction the system applies of a +1 to hit, since there are twice as many rounds coming at an enemy, and the bonus damage, are already considered a great feat, even required. You've essentially house ruled this feat into deadly aim on steroids, such that you basically roll at a -2 for critical damage.

All that said, if it works at your table, more power to you! But that just seems completely insane

Sorry I was not clear HK double tap = (damage dice rolled twice) + weapon specialization.

It is not as overpowered as you think.

There are plenty of draw backs to it. It has to be used within a first range increment. With small arms that is usually 30 to 60 feet, which means the PCs classes in my groups that have taken it (2 envoys and 2 mystics) are dangerously close to being engaged in melee.

You have to burn a feat for it.

In the 5 groups I am running, no soldier, technomancer or operative has taken it as it is not all that beneficial to them as they have something better they can use (ie operative trick attack or technomancer spells).

Also in my game if the PCs can do it so can the bad guys. So it is balanced.

We're definitely hesitant to give full spec to small arms too given how strong an operative can already be. And that sort of invalidates the double tap feat.

Ah that brings up another house rule.

Double tap: Small Arms Only, Within First Range Increment Only.

-2 To hit and on a successful hit roll damage twice.

All Other Double Tap Rules Apply.

This makes a double tap truly what it is.

A short range, quick double pull that when executed properly hits the target with 2 projectiles with a better overall accuracy than firing two separate shots (ie -4 for full attack).

I thought of another one.

I allow operatives to use trick attack (getting the trick attack damage and benefits) within the range of their sniper rifle. The only skill that can be used on this type of trick attack is stealth. The operative cannot not be spotted and needs to beat the CR +20 with a stealth check then bang, we get a real damaging sniper rifle shot.

In subsequent rounds the sniper must be unspotted to continue to trick attack in this way.

Now sniping is damaging as it should be.

My players have been on the giving end of this and the receiving end.

They like it and voted to keep it in play.

Here are some of the house rules I have at my table:

Weapon specialization is equal to you character level for all weapons.

Grenades now benefit from weapon specialization.

Grenades prices are for a box of 6.

No experience points. Level up is done when appropriate and in character downtime. No leveling halfway through a complex or the like.

Equipment upgrades. Hand waved and abstractly played. Trade/ Sell your found loot and get the level appropriate gear you want up to WBL amount. No hobo adventurers in my game with hodgepodge scrounged gear (unless the player wants to).

Critical hits go right to wounds. Critical hits should be critical, not merely annoying.

Real critical hit effects, in conjunction with the critical hit deck.

Lose limbs, have internal bleeding, insta-death is possible. Additionally a critically wounded PC / NPC must make a fort save (DC depending on severity) or be stunned until save made (roll per round). No more have a limb blown off and acting immediately. In my experience wounded people stare in horror at their bloody stump or try stuffing the insides back in all while screaming/crying. A good example is "Saving Private Ryan" by in large the reactions of the wounded is accurate.

Critical fumbles, in conjunction with the critical fumble deck are critical. Ruined weapons, bad wounds, broken equipment, critical hits to your allies all possible. The bigger the whiff, the more dire the consequences.

NPCs in the world have appropriate backgrounds and trappings for their station in life and are not limited to leveled equipment lists. If it is appropriate for them to have an item based on background.

The authorities of a galaxy, sector, system, planet, metropolis, city, village, hamlet, colony, outpost do give a $hit about what happens in their environs and will act appropriately to defend themselves or enforce their laws. No PCs running amuck without consequences. My players know this and are perfectly fine with it. They also know, that no matter what level / how bad a$$ they are, there is always someone bigger and badder out there.

Lastly, I never let the rules get in the way of the story. I and my players are subject to countless rules and regulations in our every day lives. We game to get away from this. The story reigns supreme.

There are probably more that I use, but this is what I have for now.

Even if you started with no points in wisdom, at level 10 shouldn't the operative have upped wisdom twice to at least 14 ?

My bad yes the operative is at +2 Wisdom. I was looking at her 9th level sheet when I posted earlier.

Wait, what?

It's just the opposite for us. The trick attack is an automatic success. But the operative doesn't have full BAB and misses a lot. How is your operative failing their trick attack roll?

The DC is 20+CR, so for the CR11 baddie would be 31.

By that level, the operative in our test party had 10 ranks in the skill, plus 3 for it being a class skill, 7 points of stat, 4 points (if I recall correctly) of operative bonus, 4 points from a class feature, and 2 points from race (ysoki). +30 to roll a 31.

Even if you dropped the race bonus and lowered the stat bonus to +6, it's still +27 to hit a 31. *Much* better than the operative's chance to hit, in our hands.

Or one could take the NPC operatives in Pact Worlds, specifically the Mercenary Commando (p. 157). A pair of these were an encounter in one of the modules we used for playtest. They have Stealth +25, or +29 when using trick attack, per their description. They succeed automatically against PCs of their level (DC30).

I will look at the numbers in the rest of the post when I have access to my player's character sheets. But this jumped out at me. We've been wondering if we're playing it wrong as the roll appears trivial, but we checked the rules carefully and can't see a mistake. Trick attack was hard at very low levels but had been automatic success for a while by 10th.

Sad but true. The operative has the detective specialization.

10 ranks sense motive, +1 Wis, +3 class skill, +3 operative's edge for a total of 17.

Now the detective specialization gives a +4 to sense motive trick attacks.

This would be a +21.

Now the part being missing at my table, as BNW pointed out is the ability to take 10 on a trick attack with a skill that you have the Skill Focus feat with.

The player always rolls.

It looks like I need to point out to the player that they should try taking 10 with their sense motive trick attack.

Jon Yamato 705 wrote:

...

This reads for me as the players and DM didn't really know the rules and had to re-read a lot of them and/or didn't use their full potential. Is this what happened?

In generel I had much better experiences with starfinder combat compared to pathfinder. Most simple reason is the Stamina-System. In PF my players always try tried to dodge as much damage taken as possible. In SF they are more open to try something out even if this mean getting a AoO, simply because stamina regenerate much faster. Also stamina is some sort of indicator if a situation gets out of control ("As long as I have some stamina left everything is fine, but when I get hp damage sh*t hits the fan!")

Also the damage the players deal scale very nicely (if they keep their weapons within 1 or 2 level of their own). Only thing which bothers me a little bit is that the enemies attack boni are so high, making every armor except on level heavy & power armor just a "armor module carrier".

It also helps if you speed up the combat by things like telling the players "know your char, know your abilities", cheat sheets or a simple turn counter sand glass. (but this is nothing special to SF but to all P&P games :D )

I will second what Peg'giz said. Sounds like new players & GM to the system.

I have no experience with higher level combats dragging out if players are properly equipped and know what they are doing.

We finished SoS last weekend. The first encounter in part 2 is a CR11 baddie with 175 hit points & KAC 26.

We have 2 melee soldiers, an operative and a mystic all properly equipped and at WBL guidelines. All were 10th level.

Soldier #1 does 2d10 +17 per hit with a +15 to hit, Solider #2 does 2d8 +17 with a +16, Operative does 2d4 +5 with the chance of an additional 5d8 upon a successful trick attack and the Mystic's max spell damage is 7d10.

So on any give turn the group has a max average damage of 135 points of damage per round if everybody hits, the operative has a successful trick attack and the enemy does not save verses the mystic.

So lets say the operative fails to trick attack put hits (most common result at my table) that still has a max average damage of 112 points of damage per round.

And lets say the operative misses all together (2nd most common result at my table) and the bad guy saves verses the mystic for half. That is still 88 points of damage per round.

Yes all my examples assume the soldiers with the 50% and 55% chance to hit, hit.

In most combats someone usually hits in a round, very rarely does everyone miss or hit.

Point being, 4 10th PCs properly equipped with average plyers should not have much trouble with a CR 11 creature and should dispatch it in in under 10 rounds or 1 minute and average 4 to 6 rounds.

My players did it in 5 rounds or 30 seconds.

As for playing time. A round of combat should not take much more than 5 to 10 minutes.

As the GM, I keep them moving and rule debate is not allowed at the table.

My players and I have found combat & results in SF to be not that dissimilar to PF1.

I don't even require a side quest. My rule of thumb is "If its a basic mechanic that makes life easier for everyone, both player and GM, it should generally be standard". Would it break the game for the Grinder to be a standard tool found readily on any ship? Since the answer is "no", its a standard tool found readily on every ship.

I would limit it to ships that have a tech workshop (or similar) expansion bay.

That piece of equipment would absolutely be in such a workshop.

On the Razor Crest, maybe not.

I have always allowed thematic adds the go along with how the PCs spend the BP.

Have luxurious crew quarters?

Absolutely includes a MKIII Culinary synthesizer with small linked "snack units" in individual crew quarters.

Also includes cleaning bots to take care of the general cleaning.

However every crew member still must put their dirty clothes in the garment reprocessor.

I would like to politely ask that the response to "This doesn't work for me" not be chorus after chorus of "Go play something else, then." If you are going to have a thread on "What is your experience with Starfinder?" it is quite legitimate for people to mention negatives as well as positives. Maybe those who are upset should start a thread "What are your positive experiences with Starfinder"?

If it was a case of someone saying this doesn't work for me then fine.

But it if it is a case of always bashing Starfinder without pointing out positives and then continuously mentioning another game that is the greatest game ever then no I am going to ask them to go away and play what in their mind is the far superior game.

Also it is not upset at all, more nauseated with the same drivel over and over with only dismissive comments to ideas and solutions, while never offering anything useful to make the game better.

You do understand that there is a difference between:

I think mechanic Y of Starfinder is suboptimal here is a way to make it better......

and:

Starfinder stinks in most aspects of its design, not like Computers and Cubicles, which gets it right and is superior.

With very little effort on the GMs part and some reading of the source materials you do get a feel for a city / nation state. You then can come up with what YOU as the GM want in societal detail. I do not need Paizo to do it for me.

In my SoS game.

When the PCs ship came into Verces they were greeted by 2 patrol craft. They had to ID themselves and submit to a scan of their ship.

When they landed at Cuvacara they were greeted by 2 custom's officers who scanned their ID's and did a physical walk through of their ship.

*************SPOILER TIME*******************************************

At Eclipse HQ:

I put Eclipse HQ in the corporate section of the city where it is stated that the are armed corporate mercenaries running around.

Yes I modified the front door to be locked and sign posted so some random dope doesn't get fried looking for a bathroom.

My PCs rented a cargo van and then went to a hardware store and bought a slew of janitorial supplies. The pretended to be the cleaning crew

They the disabled the lock and trap and entered.

They took care of business. At the security station they turned on the fire suppression system, hit the fire alarms and called the police stating the building was on fire and there was gun shots fired please send help.

The police and fire departments responded. The PCs were long gone.

The bomb (and there is only one bombing in SoS despite what is posted by some).

It went off. Guess what? The hotel manager called the police and 2 detectives arrived within the hour and questioned the PCs.

The ambush outside the Blue Room.

It was over in 8 rounds or 48 seconds. The police were called by those in the area and they arrived in under 5 minutes. The PCs were long gone.

The ambush in the Shade (which is described as buildings riddled with bullet holes). NO ONE CARED

The incident at the Lizard Lounge. Went as described with the PCs winning. The same 2 detective from earlier arrived (and were none to happy). At this point they warned the PCs (and stated to them that they suspected they were involved in other incidents in the day) that one more visit from them and they would be escorted to the spaceport, the craft escorted out of atmosphere and then escorted again until the Warped out of the system (yes I use warp not drift and Verces is a system not a single planet and the Pact Worlds are more akin to a cluster sized area than a single system)

And finally when the PCs head to the spaceport the final ambush is waiting for them inside.

The battle sees the drow all killed but not the sniper. The two detectives that had visited the PCs earlier had actually been assigned to follow them at this point were waiting at the PCs ship with a warrant of expulsion in hand.

The loaded the PCs onto their ship and when the took off a wing of fighters from the Vinmal Defense Force where there to escort them to near space where a Verces Systems Defense heavy cruiser was waiting for them.

When the PCs ship was near the pass off point they cut the engines and activated cloaking. The plummeted back towards the surface before engage their engines and flying nape of the earth to Darkside.

So as we look forward to tonight's session.

The PCs are wanted criminals in the Verces System. I look forward to see what they come up with to escape the planet and the system without being blasted out of the sky or space.

*************************END SPOILERS************************************

Starfinder can be what ever you want it to be. The game is only limited by you imagination and willingness to put some effort in.

It will never be perfect. No game is.

And to those who keep mentioning a different game over and over and over and over and over and over....................................................................... ..............................................and over agian.

Go play that flipping game.

As others have said, you are the GM and you set the parameters.

I absolutely forbid rules debate at the table. I make my best judgement call and we move forward. If I was wrong and it wound hurting the group I as the GM have unlimited ways in which to rectify the situation all while staying within the story.

A few times over the years I have players that turned into Estes rockets.

So I launched them.

Just lost 2 PCs on the Lizard Lounge balcony encounter. Did I do something wrong or is that Black Lotus poison way too potent for this level? Con track with accelerated progression and a DC26 Fort save at level 10? None of the PCs made the perception check to notice she wasn't drinking a second glass but is there anything else they could have done to avoid dying?

I just ran this encounter a couple of days ago.

This is a very difficult encounter to say the least.

First off it is for level 9 PC (Level 10 is the Black Site).

Assuming your group was level 10 and assuming no special feats or special racial abilities the best Fort save you could have in your group is right around +12 (+7 on L10 Soldier + 5 Con)

So the soldier is going to need a 14 (35%) and it guts rougher from there for classes with less than robust Fort Saves.

If you group did not have a mystic with remove affliction in their arsenal then I would consider your group to be lucky to have 2 live.

This is a TPK encounter.

My group survived through sheer luck of a die roll and group composition.

My group were 9th level and they all use CON as a dump stat (everyone is a +0 or +1).

The party was Operative, Solider and 2 Mystics.

One mystic rolled at Nat 20 and saved.

On the first round combat (which they start as weakened, because that is when they know they have been poisoned) The poisoned mystic put remove affliction on herself and the other mystic cast it on the soldier. That neutralizes the poison for 90 minutes. The operative failed and was debilitated and one round from death.

On round 2 one of the mystics cast remove affliction on the operative.

The PCs then won the fight.

So no you did not do anything wrong.

It is just a nasty encounter.

Just lost 2 PCs on the Lizard Lounge balcony encounter. Did I do something wrong or is that Black Lotus poison way too potent for this level? Con track with accelerated progression and a DC26 Fort save at level 10? None of the PCs made the perception check to notice she wasn't drinking a second glass but is there anything else they could have done to avoid dying?

I just ran this encounter a couple of days ago.

This is a very difficult encounter to say the least.

First off it is for level 9 PC (Level 10 is the Black Site).

Assuming your group was level 10 and assuming no special feats or special racial abilities the best Fort save you could have in your group is right around +12 (+7 on L10 Soldier + 5 Con)

So the soldier is going to need a 14 (35%) and it guts rougher from there for classes with less than robust Fort Saves.

If you group did not have a mystic with remove affliction in their arsenal then I would consider your group to be lucky to have 2 live.

This is a TPK encounter.

My group survived through sheer luck of a die roll and group composition.

My group were 9th level and they all use CON as a dump stat (everyone is a +0 or +1).

The party was Operative, Solider and 2 Mystics.

One mystic rolled at Nat 20 and saved.

On the first round combat (which they start as weakened, because that is when they know they have been poisoned) One mystic put remove affliction on herself and the other mystic cast it on the soldier. That neutralizes the poison for 90 minutes. The operative failed and was debilitated and one round from death.

On round 2 one of the mystics cast remove affliction on the operative.

The PCs then won the fight.

So no you did not do anything wrong.

It is just a nasty encounter.

It should cost much at all.

Maintenance cost should not be all that much either.

While on the ship cleaning bots take care of any accidents.

If your ship has a culinary synthesizer then all you need to do is walk up to it and say "Canine supplement #29."

Even then, damage dice slip and small arms with full spec are still inferior to longarms. You'd probably have to reduce the full attack penalty for it to be worth it.

Its not that great of a spread (yes I am sure you can find jarring examples if you look hard enough).

As I look at it the most simple fix to narrow the damage difference would be to make weapon specialization equal to character level for all weapons that you are proficient with.

The specialness is in the PC not the weapon.

Combat Rifle (L10) 3d8 +10 = 23.5 on average

Elite Semi Auto Pistol (L10) = 3d6 +10 = 20.5 on average

Dueling Sword (Corpse Fleet) Officer (L10) 3d4 +10 = 17.5 on average

Mindspike, Microserrated (L10) = 3d8 +10 = 23.5 on average.

These are reasonably close enough that a PC can use the weapon they want without being left behind.