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It is probably my favorite system to run. Monsters/NPCs are easy to understand and create. I can be generous with loot, and thanks to the 10% sell rate and level based purchase limits, the PCs are never particularly overpowered. The setting is just an amazing mix of pop sci-fi and DND style fantasy.
The only warning I would have is that there are a lot of tables just full of weapons and items and such. It's probably easier the first time learning the system to ignore those and only look through them once you find an item. About the only necessary items are decent armor and weapons, plus personal upgrades when you can afford them.
Oh, also, while a full caster type character is certainly possible if you're looting/crafting/buying spell gems, you're still going to want to own a gun and be half decent at shooting it. Just something to keep in mind.
I've run a party through Dead Suns at home and I'm running two modified Patherfinder 1e APs as play-by-post games on another site. As a player, I've been involved with a smattering of PBP games and participated in the local Starfinder Society games (though that is on hold for obvious reasons).
So far, I've really enjoyed Starfinder as a system. I've really started to think of it as the logical endpoint of the DnD 3.5/Pathfinder 1e design philosophy. More crunchy than DnD 5e and PF2e but more streamlined than DnD 3.5 and Pathfinder 1e.
It's a great system for wild space opera games. The soft sci-fi kitchen sink setting and rules mean that most storylines can be made to fit pretty easily but I will say that certain hard sci-fi themes and ideas don't mesh quite as well without tweaking things.
My general tips are to not worry too much about wealth by level and instead use item level as the primary metric of balancing players and not to get too hung up on starship combat.
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I mostly run society games. They're probably the highlight of starfinder for me. The adventures are a bucket of fun either for some weirdness or delving into the sci fi tropes.
The system is, at this point, just barely enough for me to feel like I'm making my character. I like more moving parts, so the society games have been the draw for staying with the system.
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It's a decent system with a great setting, but you should be aware that there are some "traps" built into the system that your players should be aware of before starting. If you bear these in mind, you can and will have a great time playing Starfinder.
The top ones for me are:
1. Everyone should have either a decent strength for melee or a decent dexterity for ranged, even casters and support.
2. Small-arms are essentially useless for damage unless you're an operative.
3. "Weapon Focus" is almost required for reduced BAB classes.
4. If your class doesn't offer a boost to a certain skill, you're going to fall significantly behind in effectiveness in that skill no matter what you do.
5. Don't multiclass more than one or two levels unless you *really* know what you're doing.
6. Damage grenades are disappointingly weak, don't buy them.
7. Don't spread your skill points around too much or you'll find you'll be bad at everything.
It's a decent system with a great setting, but you should be aware that there are some "traps" built into the system that your players should be aware of before starting. If you bear these in mind, you can and will have a great time playing Starfinder.
The top ones for me are:
1. Everyone should have either a decent strength for melee or a decent dexterity for ranged, even casters and support.
2. Small-arms are essentially useless for damage unless you're an operative.
3. "Weapon Focus" is almost required for reduced BAB classes.
4. If your class doesn't offer a boost to a certain skill, you're going to fall significantly behind in effectiveness in that skill no matter what you do.
5. Don't multiclass more than one or two levels unless you *really* know what you're doing.
6. Damage grenades are disappointingly weak, don't buy them.
7. Don't spread your skill points around too much or you'll find you'll be bad at everything.
This is all excellent advice. I'd maybe add:
8. If you're not a full BAB class, make sure you maximize some starship combat skill.
(Regarding #6, I'll note that the most recent round of errata lowered the costs of most grenades. But... this is still probably good advice.)
I've really enjoyed it both as a GM and Player. The system is relatively straightforward to play and there are a good number of options when you come to choose abilities.
The setting is also really nice in a generalist way as there is pretty much every genre in sci fi covered by one of the planets or somewhere out in space.
I have also found the Starfinder Society scenarios are in general better than the Adventure Paths. There is a certain humour to them that the Adventure Paths don't seem to have which I think has made for some very memorable games.
Also the basic idea behind Starfinder Society makes sense in Starfinder. The idea that someone will give you a mission, and get you to where you need to be quickly fits the genre, whereas with Pathfinder Society the mission based approach doesn't mesh as well.
I randomly came across a group of Starfinder players who have all become good friends. This could taint my impression. However, I've now played in three very different Starfinder games depending on the GM.
The first (who I played with) was experienced but sadistic, trained on old school deadly D&D style. He ran Dead Suns. Low levels of SF run by a exacting gm can be constantly deadly. Strictly run disease conditions, mold storms, etc can TPK a unprepared party without a single enemy arriving. All our levels, $$, successes felt very hard won.
The second, but the one my group had been playing till 7th level or so by the time I joined, was run by a much slacker story-oriented GM. He had secretly intended the game (run I think only a month or two after core came out) to interface with a planet he had made for Rifts campaign when he was a teenager, so the world was DEEP. I came in as a native of this planet (as he had talked to me about it when doing things to the PCs before I was in game), where the PC's are stuck for a while. This game is much more about doing stunts for social media profiles, discovering this world and its attendant intrigues, Shadowrun-esque magic augmented corporate espionage, and general wacky adventure than sweating over rules. The GM of this game feels SF gives him just enough to make enemies dangerous enough, and characters feel powerful enough at the appropriate level, to make his world make sense. YMMV.
The third, that I discuss in a thread here, is a Star Trek like troupe style play thing where we are part of crew on a mission of exploration, and each player makes a 3rd, 5th, and 7th level character. I'm having a lot of fun with it. The system could be better, and the complaints here totally have merit. But to be honest I fell in with a good table who kill it whether it's 5e or SF or M&M... So I'm biased.
I also just want to put a shout out to Paizo for making such a visually well designed product. Just had my neighbor (GM#2) get the SOM and just flipping through the art/design is so satisfying. They have really gone all out on this particular aspect. If you have any kind of nostalgia for the OG WH40K Rogue Traders glorious imaginal simulations of the futures' arsenal, then you can't miss checking out the Armory.
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Dawn of Flame has been my a favourite so far (I’ve run all of them up to the Threefold Conspiracy).
One reason it worked really well for our group was that we had a new player who was a little overwhelmed by learning everything plus one player who hated starship combat. It was really easy to take starship combat out (I narrated one or two space battles and there were some sessions set on the ship that involved skill checks, but they didn’t need to learn the rules).
My PCs really bought into the story, you get to explore one of Starfinder’s unique settings (inside the sun!) and I found the plot loose enough so that when they went “off track” it was pretty easy to remotivate the next bit. As ever with APs, there were one or two moments where the book as written didn’t make sense to my group, so I tweaked the story slightly. Nothing big deal though.
I love the setting but for some reason everything seems so underwhelming. I never feel that our characters are very competent at anything. Now we're still low-level so this may change. I made the unfortunate choice of playing a soldier based on small arms, a kasatha gunslinger since I thought the idea of a space cowboy with four arms seemed cool, but I find myself mostly using longarms since they're just plain better. Our groups technomancer never seems to use any spells always dealing with computers or zapping people with his pistol in combat. The only character that seems remotely effective is the solarian but he seems like a one trick pony. Space combat takes way to long and it's almost impossible to destroy an enemy ship. I think they dialed back the power levels a bit to far to "balance" the system after learning from Pathfinder.
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Mortagon, I totally agree with your points, especially for new players I had the same feeling when I strated the game.
What helped me a lot was that every character familiarize with the rules (especially the space combat rules) and create some cheat sheets, helpers etc.
Starfinder is really a game where everybody should know the rules and ALL his options.
It is easy to build a mostly ineffective character at low levels in starfinder. It really helps to have someone familiar with the system point out the flaws you've run into (lack of spell slots at low level, small arm problems, have a couple people decent at space combat etc.)
I made the unfortunate choice of playing a soldier based on small arms
Yeah, that just doesn't work. I'm having a hard time making small arms work on anything other than an operative. A biohacker can be.. OK with them but still very little reason not to go longarms.
For spellcasters, if you have enough loot coming in you can buy spellgems and go full caster. Unlike previous editions with wands and scrolls spell gems use your real caster stats so they pack the same punch you do.
Starship combat gets.. better at higher levels. the damage starts to outpace the shield regen a bit. Not good but better.
I made the unfortunate choice of playing a soldier based on small armsYeah, that just doesn't work. I'm having a hard time making small arms work on anything other than an operative. A biohacker can be.. OK with them but still very little reason not to go longarms.
For spellcasters, if you have enough loot coming in you can buy spellgems and go full caster. Unlike previous editions with wands and scrolls spell gems use your real caster stats so they pack the same punch you do.
Starship combat gets.. better at higher levels. the damage starts to outpace the shield regen a bit. Not good but better.
How about at 3rd level when you get weapon specialization offer an option to be a small arms weapon specialist.
Just reverse the wording. Character level with small arms and operative melee weapons and 1/2 character level with everything else.
This would add some punch to a character who wants to specialize in small arms or operative melee weapons.
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I made the unfortunate choice of playing a soldier based on small armsYeah, that just doesn't work. I'm having a hard time making small arms work on anything other than an operative. A biohacker can be.. OK with them but still very little reason not to go longarms.
For spellcasters, if you have enough loot coming in you can buy spellgems and go full caster. Unlike previous editions with wands and scrolls spell gems use your real caster stats so they pack the same punch you do.
Starship combat gets.. better at higher levels. the damage starts to outpace the shield regen a bit. Not good but better.
How about at 3rd level when you get weapon specialization offer an option to be a small arms weapon specialist.
Just reverse the wording. Character level with small arms and operative melee weapons and 1/2 character level with everything else.
This would add some punch to a character who wants to specialize in small arms or operative melee weapons.
Even then, damage dice slip and small arms with full spec are still inferior to longarms. You'd probably have to reduce the full attack penalty for it to be worth it.
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Even then, damage dice slip and small arms with full spec are still inferior to longarms. You'd probably have to reduce the full attack penalty for it to be worth it.
Its not that great of a spread (yes I am sure you can find jarring examples if you look hard enough).
As I look at it the most simple fix to narrow the damage difference would be to make weapon specialization equal to character level for all weapons that you are proficient with.
The specialness is in the PC not the weapon.
Combat Rifle (L10) 3d8 +10 = 23.5 on average
Elite Semi Auto Pistol (L10) = 3d6 +10 = 20.5 on average
Dueling Sword (Corpse Fleet) Officer (L10) 3d4 +10 = 17.5 on average
Mindspike, Microserrated (L10) = 3d8 +10 = 23.5 on average.
These are reasonably close enough that a PC can use the weapon they want without being left behind.
Even then, damage dice slip and small arms with full spec are still inferior to longarms. You'd probably have to reduce the full attack penalty for it to be worth it.Its not that great of a spread (yes I am sure you can find jarring examples if you look hard enough).
As I look at it the most simple fix to narrow the damage difference would be to make weapon specialization equal to character level for all weapons that you are proficient with.
The specialness is in the PC not the weapon.
Combat Rifle (L10) 3d8 +10 = 23.5 on average
Elite Semi Auto Pistol (L10) = 3d6 +10 = 20.5 on average
Dueling Sword (Corpse Fleet) Officer (L10) 3d4 +10 = 17.5 on average
Mindspike, Microserrated (L10) = 3d8 +10 = 23.5 on average.
These are reasonably close enough that a PC can use the weapon they want without being left behind.
Iirc, typically longarms get higher numbers of damage dice earlier depending on model, and at that lvl 14+ step where longarm damage dice starts increasing very quickly, small arm damage dice stay around the 5-6 range vs 10+ for longarms.
One way that pistols can be more advantageous than a longarm is versatility. You will do less damage pistol vs. longarm, but if you only have two hands that allows you to hold a grenade, different pistol that does a different damage type, melee weapon, spell gem, etc... with it.
Grenades aren't particularly powerful, but the ones that inflict conditions such as flashbangs can really make a difference when they work. If you invest in some feats like Cook Grenade and work as a team with a PC who can lower the targets Dexterity based saves they can be more effective. Also, unless I missed this from the first printing of the core rulebook, grenades can crit now.
I made the unfortunate choice of playing a soldier based on small armsYeah, that just doesn't work. I'm having a hard time making small arms work on anything other than an operative. A biohacker can be.. OK with them but still very little reason not to go longarms.
For spellcasters, if you have enough loot coming in you can buy spellgems and go full caster. Unlike previous editions with wands and scrolls spell gems use your real caster stats so they pack the same punch you do.
Starship combat gets.. better at higher levels. the damage starts to outpace the shield regen a bit. Not good but better.
How about at 3rd level when you get weapon specialization offer an option to be a small arms weapon specialist.
Just reverse the wording. Character level with small arms and operative melee weapons and 1/2 character level with everything else.
This would add some punch to a character who wants to specialize in small arms or operative melee weapons.
Our GM allows 3rd party options so I use the Legacy gunslinger options from Rogue genius games and gain 1 1/2 level on damage with small arms and have the gear boost granting bonus damage to projectile weapons. While this sounds like a lot the limited range and cost of decent small arms still makes longarms better. It's also very few projectile small arms and my character is based on quad-wielding guns and the fusillade feat requires four identical pistols so I'll be stuck with my tactical pistols for a while since gaining money in Starfinder is really hard. I do have a decent plasma rifle but it's not the style I wanted my character to have and we have two longarm based characters in the party already so it becomes kind of boring.
Actually, I've never seen this happen in a game before, but what if you had multiple party members who all could throw grenades and everyone threw them in the first round. That could be potentially devastating.
I had the opportunity to take a tour of the U.S marine base at 29 Palms and one of the soldiers there told me that in combat with Al Qaeda it was always a race to see who could apply more explosive ordinance on the other side first. Whoever, was able to do it first usually won the engagement. Of course he was telling me this while he was showing me their Mk. 19 automatic grenade launcher.
Actually, I've never seen this happen in a game before, but what if you had multiple party members who all could throw grenades and everyone threw them in the first round. That could be potentially devastating.
I had the opportunity to take a tour of the U.S marine base at 29 Palms and one of the soldiers there told me that in combat with Al Qaeda it was always a race to see who could apply more explosive ordinance on the other side first. Whoever, was able to do it first usually won the engagement. Of course he was telling me this while he was showing me their Mk. 19 automatic grenade launcher.
We actually did this in one of our first adventures. We managed to sneak into an enemy complex and surprise a room full of Vesk mercenaries. Three of our group tossed grenades into the room dealing tons of damage to all the Vesks. While it didn't kill them it made the rest of the combat much easier.
That's why grenades don't have specialization damage and cost a lot.
@Mortagon, I'm going to try that now if I can get a party together who all can use grenades.
Of course he was telling me this while he was showing me their Mk. 19 automatic grenade launcher.
What works IRL doesn't always translate very well to a game. Grenades are just too expensive for what they do and the game doesn't have a -close fighting thats not grappling- mode or a smaller than 5 foot cooridorrs mode where pistols would have an advantage.
Grenades just don't do a lot of damage per the cost. IRL you get a face full of shrapmetal you're probably not in a condition to shoot back. In starfinder 5 people with faces full of shrapmetal at half hp fire back just as well as someone without so much as a papercut. So you're better off focusing the damage to drop 1 of them ASAP and reduce your incoming damage to 4 mooks.
True, but it is cool to throw a bunch of grenades all in one round. You can also throw multiple flash bangs at a boss to increase the chance it gets blinded.
*makes notes for more house rules*
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I'm a session away from finishing up a 5e AP with my hometown friends. I was hoping to move the group to a Starfinder AP next. I've had an itch to run a sci-fi adventure for so long now. So I'm wondering what APs everyone has played and enjoyed. Or what your overall experience with the system is with homebrew adventures.
I don't think I'll be running Dead Suns mostly so I don't spoil anything for myself on A&A!
I haven't run any AP's as of yet, but it's amazing system generally, that's only getting more enjoyable and interesting as more supplements come out. I love the primary weird science fantasy setting because it not only generates countless story possibilities on it's own but also lends it's well to any other kinds of story you want to tell or create. It's crunchy and detailed enough, without bogging down play. It also is a perfect blend of everything you need for either a weird and wacky scifi campaign, or a serious good ol' fashioned scifi yarn. I can even work well, with the magic stripped away, with all of the tech options available. Honestly, the Starship Operations Manual has to be one of my favorite sci-fi oriented starship guides. It's offers amazing campaign arcs and adventure ideas as well as offering a TON of advice and rules sets for how to make starship encounters more than just combat oriented.
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I'm a session away from finishing up a 5e AP with my hometown friends. I was hoping to move the group to a Starfinder AP next. I've had an itch to run a sci-fi adventure for so long now. So I'm wondering what APs everyone has played and enjoyed. Or what your overall experience with the system is with homebrew adventures.
I don't think I'll be running Dead Suns mostly so I don't spoil anything for myself on A&A!
First off, welcome to the community, and I hope you try out the game and enjoy it.
My favorite AP before this month was Against the Aeon Throne. It's 1st level (so you can dive right in with new characters), it's only 3 volumes (so it's less of a commitment), it's got great bad guys and set pieces (the colony world of volume 1 and the prison break in volume 2 are especially good), and it's in print and supported on Virtual Table Top. Now Fly Free or Die has come out, and I've been working on that for a year, so of course that's my favorite. But you will have to decide for yourself! Dawn of Flame is also a long time fave, as I like the supporting cast and the effreet adversaries a lot.
My own weekly Starfinder game uses a homebrew setting. I have a large group, and some of my players really embrace Starfinder as "Pathfinder in space." They just want to shoot goblins with their plasma rifle. Others are more into social RP, and I think they'd have fun in any game as long as their friends are there. The biggest obstacle for my players has been, as someone else noted here, the very long shopping lists. All the weapons and armor and other gear can be frankly overwhelming. About half my players don't like to loot bodies, track credits, or shop at all. There are a bunch of different solutions for that problem, but that's a bit off topic.
But that's a small issue in a game which I find otherwise pretty strong, and getting better all the time. The options in Character Operations Manual (which came out right around the time I became a developer on the game) were a huge boon to me and my players, and future releases like Galaxy Exploration Manual and Tech Revolution are gonna support more and more play styles, genres, and characters.
Your campaign may vary!
2. starship combat flat-out sucks and feels like 1970s star trek era nonsense. paizo needs to get it together and rebuild ship combat from the ground up. we don't use it AT ALL in our campaigns.
What don't you like about it? Maybe we can come up with some ideas to make it more enjoyable for your group.
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Starship combat needs spice, even more so than regular combat.
Consider adding one or more of the following:
1. A ticking clock. Maybe a bay door is closing, or a security system is disabled but will come back up soon, or a portal is about to open, or the target is trying to enter the drift. Maybe reinforcements are on their way.
2. Terrain. The space hexes can be handwaved to be arbitrarily different sizes. If you only have small ships engaged, you can add larger ones as stationary terrain drawn on the map. Or asteroids. Or spacial rifts.
3. Danger zones. Perhaps a stationary turret or missile launcher is lending aid to one side of the battle, and ending within range of it will let it get heavy shots off on you. Maybe a mystical object sends EM pulses every other round that causes problems on the ship.
4. Fodder. Sometimes a battlefield can be littered with lower tier enemies that you just explode out of hand. It can be satisfying and give some spice to what would otherwise have been a slugfest.
5. On-board trouble. Maybe the AI you're transporting has hacked its way into you systems and requires a computers guy to handle during the fight or it reverses your controls. Maybe you need to make checks to avoid stepping on tribbles.
6. An objective. Escorting a civilian ship that's being targeted by pirates puts pressure on the party to prioritize different things. Maybe the party even splits up to control both ships. Maybe you just need to drop a missile into a thermal exhaust port somewhere and shooting down the bad guys isn't the main goal.
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1. A ticking clock. Maybe a bay door is closing, or a security system is disabled but will come back up soon, or a portal is about to open, or the target is trying to enter the drift. Maybe reinforcements are on their way.
2. Terrain. The space hexes can be handwaved to be arbitrarily different sizes. If you only have small ships engaged, you can add larger ones as stationary terrain drawn on the map. Or asteroids. Or spacial rifts.
Note to self: design starship encounter inside a Dyson sphere or other mega-construction that PCs need to fly out of before it asplodes :D
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I like what WatersLethe pointed out.
I think especially point 2 (3) & 4 are important…
No let me reiterate it, all of them are pure gold!
It's like in normal combat: give the players an objective, make the environment interesting and give them something to feel AWESOME!
We had also problems with space combat (roll... roll. roll.. roll), but my players and I had a blast in AotS when they get in command of a capital ship and simply blast the pesky Swarm Altipheron & Swarm Fleetfury out of the sky with the spinal mega-laser. :D
5. flanking /advantage is not a thing which is dumb. highly recommend using some house rules in order to get people interested in a bit of strategic battle planning.
Uh, Flanking IS a thing. Since the number and type of attack bonuses are flattened and limited, +2 is often the difference between a full attack saving the day and a total whiff.
I find Starfinder melee combat to have some surprising and satisfying heft to it, tactically.
5. flanking /advantage is not a thing which is dumb. highly recommend using some house rules in order to get people interested in a bit of strategic battle planning.Uh, Flanking IS a thing. Since the number and type of attack bonuses are flattened and limited, +2 is often the difference between a full attack saving the day and a total whiff.
I find Starfinder melee combat to have some surprising and satisfying heft to it, tactically.
Not to mention setting up coordinated shot
Not to mention setting up coordinated shot
Indeed. Dr. Zorkfeld, my adventure path Witchwyrd Envoy, has a team of optimized melee and ranged psychopaths, and he spends most turns getting into position to flank/coordinated shot with his menacing opportunistic advanced lance (with reach), applying Get 'Em and/or Clever Attack as needed.
Every battle is an exercise in using tactical positioning to make supposedly difficult AP fights easy.
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@Dracomicron, I agree with you. There are so many things you can do in combat that make it very tactical. Yes, you can just pick one target and everyone go to town on it, but since the math is so tight all the little +1, +2 bonuses make a difference if you want to do something different. You can influence the battle in many ways with buffs, grenades, poisons, flanking, positioning, etc...
Something I just realized I want to try with my operative, that now has triple attack, is to fill his needler pistol with 3 doses of poison and fire them all in one round.
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My experience with starship combat is just repeating the same action literally every turn and being very bored. Only pilots and gunners had any agency.
Outside of starship combat though, I've rather enjoyed my time with starfinder.
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The pilot has all the agency the gunners have most of the effect.
Combat is much less dynamic than in Pathfinder, in our hands. I really miss the 5' step and characters with more substantial attacks of opportunity (no one seems to have more than one, and it's easy to lose that one because it is the same action type as something else you need to do). Combat manuvers, if we are playing them correctly, appear nearly useless because the target number is so much higher than a standard attack--better to hit and do damage than miss with a manuver.
My player has 4 PCs and in neither of the two parties we've tried have they seemed well balanced. It's apparently really easy to make a useless PC. In both parties it was the melee guy who overshadowed the others badly, though I guess that won't always be how it goes--it does depend some on the scale of the terrain.
It's easy enough to houserule back in the free five foot step, Though, it makes melee even more powerful if they can just follow and full attack. The shear number of AoOs well built PCs could get in pathfinder were already problematic in pathfinder, with starfinder's easy access to large and reach weapons, and the vanguard's potentially very long reach, something like combat reflexes would be ridiculously powerful.
Combat maneuvers untrained are difficult to pull of. A martial character who builds for one or two can pull them off fairly easily. If there is a second martial character, they can actually be quite powerful, forced movement provokes AoO in starfinder, including from the person performing the maneuver.
Accidentally building something vastly overshadowed by someone else is a little too easy to do. Though, especially at early levels, melee tends to be the biggest damage output no matter what. Later on, longarms and heavy weapons can start playing catch up, but melee = more damage, and more hits taken.
Just a few of my thoughts, hopefully your higher level playtest goes better than low level.
What is the law level of Absalom Station? It seems to vary from scene to scene in a bewildering way.
It varies from neighborhood to neighborhood. Sometimes quite drastically.
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I wouldn't agree on you with that Ixal.
As mentioned before I understand/imagine Starfinder more like the movie Wild West (new lands to explore, only small settlements on most of the planets/low population density etc.). So in most places law is defined by the local judge/sheriff and a lot of the law stufff happens in the background.
This is a trope which is used A LOT in movie and TV, so you can focus on the story and action and not on "boring" paperwork.