HWalsh's page

Well, the day I feared came to pass and with it went my final connection to the life I once had, with that I say my farewells and prepare to head out.

To those who got that which they wanted, I'm happy for you.

For me though, that was it.

So with that said, I leave the rest to you.

The Paladin is yours now.

I'll pop in to see how things go, but the appeal is gone and the spark has faded.

Be safe guys, stay well, I wish you good fortune.

Maybe it's my paranoia, maybe it's the sleep deprivation talking, but I can't help but feel like Rogue is getting, and has gotten, way more attention than other classes.

To me, Paladin is in the most need of attention.

Paladins are stuck in one role - We're forced to go ret strike. We've clamored for an alternative. We've been left out.

Rogues complained about being forced to go Dex to Damage and got a full core redesign. They got an extra rework. Ok that's cool. But the Rogue was doing fine in PF2.

They were already arguably one of the strongest classes and one of the highest damaging ones if they could sneak attack. They're the best class at skills as well.

I guess I'm just wondering if we're going to see similar reworks for the other classes in the same limited role situation like Paladin or to a lesser extent Fighter.

Some people hate the idea that magical weapons are actually magical. They want them to slightly help with accuracy and add eh, a slight bit of damage.

I hated this in PF1 and earlier editions.

Even my beloved Paladin has this:

1d8+10(str x 1.5) +12(Power Attack) +3(magic weapon)

The difference between a normal sword and a supremely expensive magical weapon of great power is... 3.

1d8+25 vs 1d8+22

That is silly.

Some people hate, in PF2, that a +3 weapon would be 4d8 rather than 1d8+3

I don't understand that.

"If a commoner picked up a..."

Yes. A commoner would hit hard, but would have no chance vs the high level fighter because the commoner couldn't hit him.

In PF2 its realistic to a point. You can only do so much damage with muscles and skill. Magic is the force multiplier and I, for one, am happy.

It looks like, after the stream Charisma is no longer part of Resonance.

That means, just like in PF1, Charisma is only good for very specific purposes.

The most powerful stats are still Dex, Con, and Wis.

I'm a little sad to be honest.

So today I tested a couple Ret Strike variants:

Setting:
The setting for these was the same. The combat takes place in a 5 square wide by 4 square tall room with doors at all 4 sides. No difficult terriain.

Party makeup:
The Quartet - Fighter, Cleric, Mage, Paladin. They are level 3. The Paladins were all identical - Longword and Heavy Steel Shield, Half-Plate - Human - Diety's Domain (Iomedae), Warded Touch, Fleet (through human feat) Stat Array - 18/12/10/10/12/16 - AC 18 / TAC 16 - 20/18 w/ Shield up. To remove Randomness the Paladin's initiative number was right in between enemies so half went before and half went after. Always.

Enemies: (3 waves)
Wave 1: 5 Goblin Commandos, CR1 - Set as melee enemies.
Wave 2: 2 Skeletal Champions, CR2
Wave 3: 3 Gnolls (CR1) and 1 Skeltal Champion (CR2)

Test 1:
Standard Ret Strike - Control Test

The Party acted in a proper standard manner. Highly mobile save for when facing the S. Champions who have AoO. Casters were instructed to move away from enemies that engaged them in melee. Enemies were set to stay mobile as well. So as to give Ret Strike the maximum possible advantage the enemies were set to not attack the Paladin unless struck by him and to not avoid the Paladin's threatened area. PCs and NPCs were set to not "set up" a Ret Strike for the Paladin intentionally and to play the encounter as they normally would.

Result:
AoO: 9 times
RS: 2 times

Test 2:
Ret Strike variant - The Paladin could take a step to close on any enemy who struck an ally within 10 feet as part of the Ret Strike.

Party behavior was consistent with Control Test.

Result:
AoO: 7 times
RS: 6 times

Ret strike showed a tremendously higher number of fires. Players liked being able to be more active. Combat "felt faster" to them.

Test 3:
Ret Strike variant - The Ret Strike was replaced with "Smite Evil" players could smite evil as outlined in my previous post.

Paladins were far more aggressive than in the control test.

Result: AoO 5 times
RS: Not applicable
Smite Evil was used 6 times.

Players liked Smite Evil. Feeling more "bursty and "heroic" combat was in general much faster.

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Ending notes:

Players generally felt apathetic toward standard Ret Strike. Generally saying it was OK but not great. They liked Ret Strike Variant 1 a lot and felt more active than in the control test. They liked Smite evil a lot as well, finding it more fun, combining it with Weapon Surge was very powerful. When asked which was the better variant - of ther 12 players:

Standard Ret Strike: 0
Variant 1: 7
Variant 2 (Smite Evil): 5

So... Here are the averages of each class, I took these from the data I collected over 12 level 1 playtests.

Alchemist - Light Armor - Dexterity 16 - 15/14 AC/TAC

Barbarian - Medium Armor - Dexterity 14 - 16/15 AC/TAC

Bard - Light Armor - Dexterity 16 - 14/13 AC/TAC

Cleric - Medium Armor - Dexterity 14 - 16/15 AC/TAC

Druid - Medium Armor - Dexterity 16 - 16/13 AC/TAC

Fighter - Heavy Armor - Dexterity 14 - 16/14 AC/TAC*

Monk - No Armor - Dexterity 18 - 15/15 AC/TAC

Paladin - Heavy Armor - Dexterity 12 - 15/13 AC/TAC*

Ranger - Medium Armor - Dexterity 16 - 17/15 AC/TAC

Rogue - Light Armor - Dexterity 18 - 16/15 AC/TAC

Sorcerer - No Armor (Mage Armor) - Dexterity 16 - 14/14 AC/TAC

Wizard - No Armor (Mage Armor) - Dexterity 16 - 14/14 AC/TAC

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I noted the Fighter and Paladin specifically - They both are Heavy Armor intended characters, but they can't possibly start with Heavy Armor. This means that the highest (general) AC at level 1 is... The Ranger? Really?

Maybe Paizo should increase the starting Silver for people who are built for Heavy Armor - It isn't like Heavy Armor is so much better that it would be game breaking, but it is odd that they are the only characters that can't start with the type of armor they are built to wear.

This is especially jarring for prospective Full Plate wearers who, of all the armor wearing classes tends to have the lowest AC in the game because they can't possibly Start with Full Plate.

Disclaimer:
This is me redesigning the Paladin class in PF2 to make it feel more (mechanically) like it did in PF1. Nothing less, nothing more, I have spent a lot of time and effort into this redesign as a thought experiment only.

Request:
Please no, "Open the Paladin!" replies here. This is not the place for that.

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Paladin

Key Ability: Strength

Hit Points: 10+Con Modifier

Proficiencies:
Perception - Trained

Saving Throws:
Fortitude - Expert
Reflex - Trained
Will - Expert

Skills:
3+Con Modifier

Weapons:
All simple and martial weapons

Armor and Shields:
All armor and shields

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Code of Conduct:

Unchanged - this is exactly like current PF2.

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Paladin Advancement:
1 Ancestry feat, background, champion powers, code of conduct, deific weapon, initial proficiencies, paladin feat, Smite Evil

2 Paladin feat, skill feat

3 General feat, righteous ally, skill increase

4 Paladin feat, skill feat

5 Ability boosts, ancestry feat, skill increase, weapon expertise

6 Paladin feat, skill feat

7 Champion's Edge I, general feat, skill increase

8 Paladin feat, skill feat

9 Ancestry feat, Holy Smite, skill increase

10 Ability boosts, paladin feat, skill feat

11 Aura of Justice, general feat, skill increase

12 Paladin feat, skill feat

13 Ancestry feat, Champion's Edge II, skill increase

14 Paladin feat, skill feat

15 Ability boosts, general feat, skill increase, weapon mastery

16 Paladin feat, skill feat

17 Ancestry feat, Champion's Edge III, skill increase

18 Paladin feat, skill feat

19 General feat, hero’s defiance, skill increase

20 Ability boosts, paladin feat, skill feat

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Deific Weapon:
Unchanged

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Smite Evil:
Action Type: Action

Requirements: May only target a foe who has an Evil alignment. (Lawful Evil, Neutral Evil, Chaotic Evil)

You designate a single evil target within 100 feet as your target and focus your attacks against that target. While smiting that target, you gain the following benefits against that creature:

Any multiple attack penalties you take are reduced by 1.
You reduce any Damage Reduction that target has by a number equal to your Charisma modifier.

You can have only one target designated as the target of your Smite at a time. If you use Smite Evil against a target when you already have a target designated, the prior target loses the designation and the new target gains the designation. In any case, this designation lasts until your next daily preparation (see page 332).

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Champion Powers:
This is unchanged from PF2.

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Paladin Feats:
This is unchanged from PF2.

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Skill Feats:
This is unchanged from PF2.

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Righteous Ally:
This is unchanged from PF2.

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General Feats:
This is unchanged from PF2.

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Skill Increases:
This is unchanged from PF2.

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Ability Boosts:
This is unchanged from PF2.

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Ancestry Feats:
This is unchanged from PF2.

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Weapon Expertise:
This is unchanged from PF2.

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Champion's Edge I:
Your proficiency rank for Fortitude Saves increases to Master. When you succeed at a Fortitude Save treat your result as a Critical Success. Your proficiency rank in Shields increases to Expert. Then choose one of the following options, this option can be changed at the start of the day:

Light Armor Specialist: Your proficiency rank in Light Armor becomes Expert.

Medium Armor Specialist: Your proficiency rank in Medium Armor becomes Expert.

Heavy Armor Specialist: Your proficiency rank in Heavy Armor becomes Expert.

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Holy Smite:
Your Smite Evil becomes capable of dealing grievous wounds to Evil Targets. On a critical hit, the target of a Smite Evil takes persistent good damage equal to your Charisma modifier.

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Aura of Justice:
All allies within 10 feet of the Paladin ignore an amount of DR equal to the Paladin's Charisma Modifier against the target of the Paladin's Smite Evil.

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Champion's Edge II:
Reduce the Armor Check Penalty of Shields by 1. In addition to this, the bonuses from your Champion's Edge change depending on your chosen specialization:

Light Armor Specialist: Your proficiency increases to Master. Gain a +1 conditional bonus to Initiative when wearing Light Armor.

Medium Armor Specialist: Your proficiency increases to Master. Reduce the Armor Check Penalty of Medium Armor by 1.

Heavy Armor Specialist: Your proficiency increases to Master. Reduce the Movement Speed Penalty of Heavy Armor to 5 ft.

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Weapon Mastery:
This is unchanged from PF2.

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Champion's Edge III:
The bonuses from your Champion's Edge change depending on your chosen specialization: (Note: These replace the specialization bonuses provided by Champion's Edge II.)

Light Armor Specialist: Your proficiency increases to Legendary. Gain a +2 conditional bonus to Initiative when wearing Light Armor.

Medium Armor Specialist: Your proficiency increases to Legendary. Reduce the Armor Check Penalty of Medium Armor by 2.

Heavy Armor Specialist: Your proficiency increases to Legendary. Remove the Movement Speed Penalty of Heavy Armor.

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Hero's Defiance:
This is unchanged from PF2.

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Feats to follow - Please keep posts to a minimum while I get all of that in here...

Okay, I'll preface this with the following disclaimer:

I do not want the game to have an easy way to heal up to full after each and every fight. I feel that allowing that option makes every fight, if it is to be of any actual challenging value, to be legitimately potentially lethal. I think in PF1, one of the things that ruined most of PFS for me as a player was the CLW Wand that made any kind of HP damage that was less than lethal virtually inconsequential.

I do feel that players in PF2 should be ready to go into battle at 70% HP and should plan on not always being at maximum health.

That having been been said...

The current Treat Wounds has utterly ruined one of my PF2 games. Literally the party insists on standing around for 40, 50, and 60 minutes of in-game time to heal up to full and instantly freaks out if they can't.

Note, that these same players have handled all of my content so far without any problems what so ever. The game difficulty has been fine. No, instead I blame Treat Wounds fully for this new development.

So here is my proposal to adjust it:

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TREAT WOUNDS
Requirements: You must use healer’s tools (see page 186).

You spend 10 minutes treating up to 6 injured living creatures (targeting yourself as one of them, if you so choose), then attempt a Medicine check. The DC is usually the medium DC for your level, though the GM might adjust this DC due to circumstances, such as trying to rest during volatile weather or when treating magically cursed wounds.

A given creature can be subject to only one Treat Wounds attempt per hour, so two characters can’t treat the same target’s wounds simultaneously.

Success You treat the patients’ wounds. Each patient recovers Hit Points equal to 1/2 its total HP (rounded down).

Critical Success Heal 100% of the target's total HP.

Critical Failure The patients are bolstered against your Treat Wounds.

Note: Once a creature has benefited from one use of Treat Wounds in a 24 hour period they may not benefit from another use of treat wounds if they have equal to, or greater than, 50% of their total HP (rounded down). If damage is inflicted willingly, and knowingly, toward a player character specifically to lower their health to below 50% of their total HP for the purposes of using Treat Wounds that character is automatically bolstered against treat wounds for 24 hours.

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What this accomplishes -

1. It stops players from rolling over and over and over and over again. One and done and then move on.

2. It stops players from entering every fight at full HP.

I don't like using the term, "Sacred Cow."

This is one rare case that I will.

Rogues were always given high amounts of skills (post 2nd Edition AD&D) because, presumably, they were inferior in combat and lacked the raw out-of-combat abilities of Spellcasters.

I feel that Rogues do not possess significant enough combat disadvantages to warrant them having such a high degree of out-of-combat skill advantages.

They have the highest number of trained skills by far.
They have the highest number of skill raises.
They have the highest number of master and legendary skills.
They were given even more skill advantages in 1.2.

They are the highest damaging melee class when they sneak attack.
Sneak Attack is very easy to get in PF2.

The only reason I see for the skill increases is because the Rogue traditionally has high skills.

This is not the same as other traditions as this only reaches back to 3.0 or 3.X.

This was a tradition born for a specific mechanical reason that does not exist in PF2.

So with all of the data present, it begs the question in the title:

"Do Rogues Really Need A Skill Bump?"

My answer is no. They are not sufficiently weaker in combat than say a Fighter, Ranger, or Paladin to warrant their current level of out of combat abilities.

So let us talk about Full Plate.

Full Plate is just... Bad.

First, let us be honest, by level 5 virtually every Heavy Armor wearer is going to have Dex 14. It ain't hard to do, it requires virtually no resources with how Ability Boosts are given and it is just a better option.

Half Plate is just... Once you have Dex 14... Better in every possible way.

Half Plate: AC Bonus +5, TAC +2, Check Pen -4, Level 1 Item, 3 Bulk, Max Dex 2
Full Plate: AC Bonus +6, TAC +2, Check Pen -5, Level 2 Item, 4 Bulk, Max Dex 1

Assuming you have max dex for each:

Half Plate = AC +7, TAC +4, Check Pen -4, Level 1, 3 Bulk
Full Plate = AC +7, TAC +3, Check Pen -5, Level 2, 4 Bulk

Full plate is also Clumsy, Half Plate is not.

It is worse in every possible way. It is more expensive, a higher item level, weighs more, and has a higher check penalty. In a game where getting to 14 Dex was difficult... Sure, but a Human Paladin can easily start with an array of:

01: 18/12/10/10/12/16

to jump to:

05: 19/14/12/10/12/18
10: 20/14/14/10/14/19
15: 21/14/16/10/16/20
20: 22/16/18/10/18/20

And even here they are going over the max dex for any heavy armor. I guess they could toss it in Int. Either way... There is virtually no reason anyone would want Full Plate.

Please, this is just odd, Full Plate should be one of the best, if not the best, Heavy Armor. It should never be mechanically the worst.

Greetings and Salutations...

Today I want to talk a little about Pathfinder Society 2. I want some GM Agency. Simple as that, right to the point, and here is why:

Currently, I've literally spent almost my whole life GM'ing (literally 30 years of my life in exactly 3 days) and learning how to tell a story, how to make engaging characters, how to guide a group of players, creating the illusion of choice, balancing encounters to be fun and challenging, etc etc.

Those who have played with me (and after DragonCon that is a LOT of people) can attest that I know exactly what I am doing. So much so that my homebrew PF2 AP has become a staple of PF2 testing in my region because people absolutely love it. Note: That isn't a brag, that is just a fact at this point.

Why do I bring this up? Because I am a Game Master. I am not a Finite State Machine.

I don't run PFS anymore, unless it is a con or something where I am helping out. Why? Because I don't like it.

I don't like being a machine that reads box text. I don't like seeing massive issues in a Scenario created by players having crazy builds that invalidate the story that I could fix by adding one low level item to an enemy, but being unable to do so. I don't like feeling weak and helpless and, in generally, not very valued by Paizo.

I know that isn't Paizo's intention, but it is how I feel. Paizo goes out of its way to ensure that players have all kinds of Agency but then they forget that the GM is a player too. I am spending the money to buy the scenario to run for them at PFS tables which is basically me also spending my time to do this and the rewards for this are... Lackluster.

Most of the GM boons aren't that good, or not useful for me, and we have an entire thread dedicated to trading them to get ones that are useful to us.

But I am not asking for better boons, or more rewards for GMs, or free scenarios when not running at cons, or anything. All I am asking for is a little Agency. The ability to actually be a GM once in a while.

Other (I say every other one ever) Organized Plays have some degree of freedom they offer to GMs. Some are extreme and go to far, yes, but not all of them. So, with that having been said, since PFS2 is a chance to start with a fresh canvas, here are some suggestions on how to give GMs some Agency backed up by actual examples I have seen in PFS situations.

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The ability to modify the scenario slightly.

Now this is the biggest thing I want to be able to do, but I realize that this has to have some controls. There have been times where a certain monster, or NPC was going to be completely useless against the party because one party member had managed to do something so whacked out and powerful that it utterly broke the entire scenario. This could be fixed by changing out an Equal CR enemy for another Equal CR enemy or swapping one of their magic items for an Equal magic item, but we lack the Agency to do that.

Actual play example:
A player managed to rig their character to turn into a shadow octopus with eight attacks per round. Literally not a single enemy in the scenario had the ability to harm this character. They had no way to effect them. They were literally immune to everything.

How could I have fixed it?
The Big Bad had a useless magical item on him. If that item could have been changed into a +1 Hand Wrap of Mighty Fists or even a +1 Brass Knuckle then boom, problem solved. The PC was so powerful he would still steamroll it, but at least the boss enemy could do 1/2 damage against them.

I could have changed out the Big Bad for a different equal CR big bad. That could also have fixed it.

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The ability to change the scenario slightly.

This has happened many times, so many times I am not going to give a specific scenario example. Sometimes a class, spell, archetype or feat can completely wreck a scenario made before they existed. I am certain every PFS GM has seen this. Be it being able to identify something that they (at the time of the writing) couldn't or an ability that forces an enemy to be friendly or a power that ruins the "Who done it" by allowing someone to gain postcognition.

In many of these cases a little GM Agency allows the scenario to still work.

The Serial Killer is being forced to be friendly and tell you everything? No. He's immune to that due to magical stuff. Moving on.

Using postcognition to see what happened in the murder mystery? Too bad the killer wore a mask.

The Scenario calls for the enemy to get away thus forcing the PCs to chase down the clues, locate him, and bring him to justice, but the PC with a +56 to Grapple says no? Thankfully he had an potion/ring of Freedom of Movement or an Hourglass of Last Chances on him so that he could slip away isn't it?

At least give me some options to customize each and every scenario...

Maybe just toss in (at least) a small section under each encounter that says things like: "The GM can, if they wish, substitute out these monsters for X, Y, or Z if they choose to."

Just... Something... To give me the feeling that I am doing something other than just reading from a booklet when I spend all of the time, money, and energy.

Anyway, that is all. Thank you for taking the time to read this.

Here are the current mechanical issues in the Paladin as I, and others, have seen it. (Please, no Alignment stuff here? Thanks.)

1. Retributive Strike
There are numerous issues with Ret Strike. The Devs have confirmed that they are aware of the issue with it locking out bow users (Paladins of Erastil and Abadar) thus far. Devs have not commented, yet, on the issue of the difficulty to use it with non-reach melee weapons. Reach melee weapons, in testing, have shown that it is very effective on those builds. This creates an issue where it straight favors one build over others and hopefully all of this can be addressed.

2. Who counts as an Ally?
This is a big one. A really big one. Why? Paladins have several abilities that trigger when something happens to an ally. The first of which is Loyal Warhorse.

Loyal Warhorse contains the following line(s):

Finally, you can make a Retributive Strike against anyone who hits your mount with a Strike, even if the attack was not a critical hit.

This seems to indicate that your mount is not an ally? I'm confused here. If your Mount is an Ally then you can Retributive Strike them if they hit it, critical or not. What is this supposed to actually mean?

The second thing this causes an issue with is with Shield of Reckoning. Now, this can count for your mount as well, if you are shield blocking for it, but in Pathfinder 1 you counted as an ally to yourself, is that still the case in Pathfinder 2? If so does that mean that you can Retributive Strike someone who hits you providing you use the Shield Block to protect yourself? That doesn't seem to be the intent, but depending on what Ally means it might.

3. Blade of Justice is just bad.
Blade of Justice is very weak. It is a 6th level ability that costs an action and adds 1 good damage per weapon damage die to all of your melee attacks for the next turn. Not only is 1 good damage per die absolutely terrible unless you have a +5 weapon or something, it is completely out-moded by Aura of Faith or just taking a Holy Weapon (which adds 1d6 good damage) and you can do a few levels later.

4. Instrument of Zeal is just as bad.
A power that only triggers on a critical hit with an already hard to get to fire Retributive Strike or a very weak Blade of Justice is rather poor. This should be looked at. It should really just add the damage to all Retributive Strikes and uses of Blade of Justice. (Which would actually make Blade of Justice much better in and of itself.)

5. Action Economy Woes.
By level 12 my Test Paladin has four (4!) different possible reactions per turn, but unlike other classes has no ways to get extra reactions. My reactions were: Retributive Strike, Shield Block, Holy (on my weapon), and Divine Grace. That is a lot. This needs to be looked at.

6. Our Level 20 Feat is... A level 12 Fighter Feat?
Shield Champion needs to be looked at. The Fighter has been able to have an always ready shield since level 12. We don't get that until level 20? I mean sure, it auto-repairing is cool and all, but this is way too weak for a level 20 capstone.

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I do hope that some of this the Devs are listening to. These are pretty big issues the class is facing.

Okay,

Now... Being the Paladin fanboy that I am I am trying to be calm... Trying to be super calm... Trying to be very polite and understanding... Trying to...

What in the heck do you think you guys are doing to the Holy Avenger!?!

Okay... Now that that is out of my system...

Seriously... What did you guys do?

That is the most iconic weapon in Dungeons and Dragons history!

It is... A +3 weapon? What. The. Holy. NO!

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The gleaming holy avenger is the iconic weapon of powerful
paladins. The crossbar and hilt of this +3 cold iron longsword are
styled to look like angel wings. Tradition holds that those who
see their reflection in a holy avenger’s highly polished blade have
their faults laid bare.
When you activate the sword, you can use a separate Interact
action to point it at a creature you can see. You learn if that
creature is evil; this is a 2nd-level divination and detection spell.
A non-good creature attempting to wield a holy avenger is
enfeebled 2. This condition can’t be removed in any way until the
creature removes the weapon from its person.
If you’re a paladin, you also gain the following two benefits.
• When you critically hit an evil creature with the holy avenger,
the creature is slowed 1 and enfeebled 2 for 1 round.
• After you hit a creature with the holy avenger, you can spend
your next action to activate the sword to cast dispel magic at
the same level as your champion powers. This dispel magic can
target either an illusion the creature created or a mental effect
the creature cast on you or one of your allies. You must be
within 120 feet of the illusion or ally to dispel the effect. Once
per day, you can use this dispel magic to instead target a spell
affecting the creature you hit or an item that creature wears
or carries.

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Come on guys, no, this is unacceptable.

Jump the sucker to level 18 if you must but the Holy Avenger is supposed to be THE most powerful sword in the book when held by a Paladin.

Also why is it working for non-Paladins AT ALL.

The Holy Avenger has always been as follows:

A +2 Longsword that, in the hands of a Paladin becomes a +5 Holy Weapon that grants some form of protection (typically SR) and a Magic Circle against Evil and is Holy.

What... What is this thing? This isn't a Holy Avenger. Someone has some 'splaining to do.

Step 1: Play an alchemist.

Step 2: Take Quick Bomber at level 1.

Step 3: Multiclass into Rogue at level 2.

Step 4: Take Quickdraw at level 4.

Now...

Use an interaction action to draw... Then throw... Two bombs.

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Rules as written, this should work... You'll burn through bombs like tic-tacs, but it works. I recommend Paizo take a look at this.

Here ya go guys, I know it isn't the perfect chart, and I wished I could have worked in the difficulty chart from the book, and a roll template too but... There is a LOT of information.

This is a 4 page GM screen that contains:

Page 1:
Conditions Chart pt. 1

Conditions in the game, what they mean, etc.

Page 2:
Conditions Chart pt. 2

The rest of the Conditions in the game.

Page 3:
Standard and Social Explorations Mode Tactics and brief explanations.

Page 4:
Skills, associated ability scores, individual actions and activities, and denotes which are, and are not, secret checks.

GM Screen and Resource Pages Linky

Here ya go...

Link to the Chart

I have now run 8 playtest games.

3 of them had Paladins. Data only comes from those.

Paladin builds:
Sword and board
Longbow only
Shield only

Here are the statistics:

Number of encounters: 8

Encounter 1:
Game 1: 4 PCs against 1 Goblin Dog. Retributive strike triggers: 0
Game 2: 5 PCs against 1 Goblin Dog. Retributive Strike Triggers: 0
Game 3: 5 PCs against 1 Goblin Dog. Retributive Strike Triggers: 0

Encounter 2:
Game 1: 4 PCs against 3 Goblin Dogs. Retributive strike triggers: 0
Game 2: 5 PCs against 3 Goblin Dogs. Retributive strike triggers: 0
Game 3: 5 PCs against 3 Goblin Dogs. Retributive strike triggers: 1

Encounter 3:
Game 1: 4 PCs against 2 Goblin Warriors and 2 Goblin Dogs. Retributive strike triggers: 0
Game 2: 5 PCs against 2 Goblin Warriors and 2 Goblin Dogs. Retributive strike triggers: 0
Game 3: 5 PCs against 2 Goblin Warriors and 2 Goblin Dogs. PCs turned back after disasterous encounter 2. This encounter did not happen.

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Retributive Strike needs to go.

I am collecting the main Paladin Concerns here in one thread:

1. What does Warded Touch actually do? Some people claim that a Dev, Mark Seifter I believe, said that it allows you to use Lay on Hands while your hand is not free (IE holding a shield) can we get a Dev confirmation on this?

2. Blade of Justice is incredibly weak for its level. It costs an action to activate, which is basically the same as Power Attack. Power Attack is 2 actions and adds an entire die. Blade of Justice adds +1 per die your weapon has, that is, less than good. We would ask this to be looked into. Contrast with Power Attack, which is level 1, and does much more and Blade of Justice is level 6.

3. Retributive Strike literally only works for melee characters. Leaving Paladins of Erastil completely in the cold. They literally cannot use this when using their Deity's Favored weapon. Also many Paladin players have reported feeling that it is too reactive as the requirements to use Retributive Strike don't work easily with most favored weapons (as they are not reach) making it harder to use than other reactions, such as Attack of Opportunity. Maybe this could be looked at.

4. Tangental - Full Plate is the iconic Paladin Armor, yet in PF2 it is a level 2 armor (the only level 2 armor) and is in many ways worse than other armors. Due to it being a higher level, as well as having all of its extra riders, it should have the highest AC combined with max dex for it (+1) currently all armors cap out at 7. This should cap out at 8 at the least, possibly 9. (meaning a base AC of +7 or +8 rather than +6)

Others, please add your concerns here...

I think it is important that we start looking at some of the underlaying types of gamers (to which we all belong to as a whole or in part) to one way or the other. Note: This doesn't call anyone out, it isn't an accusation, and none of these types of gamer is wrong, and this is by no means a complete list. Identification of what kind of gamer we each are helps us to understand why we don't like something and how best we can direct feedback to have an impact without raging. Or, to put it simply, it helps us explain what we don't like or do like in a way that is useful.

So without further delay:

1. The Story Gamer
This kind of gamer is sometimes called a casual gamer, they are generally gamers who are here for the story and to hang out to have a good time. They aren't so much into the mechanics and in fact many may not even know the mechanics. They don't optimize for a myriad of reasons that range from they don't like it, they don't care, or they don't know how. They want a game that they can pick up and play with minimal effort into learning so they can jump in and go.

This is a growing demographic among gamers. It used to be that this group was an extreme minority. Gaming was an esoteric thing that wasn't mainstream and, due to some really bad stigmas around gaming, especially in the lat 1970's and early 1980's, it tended to only attract the more hardcore crowd.

2. The Optimizer
This kind of gamer is sometimes called a Power Gamer, but there are much worse names used as well. They are generally gamers who are here to win. By win, it means to be able to do what they set out to do in the most extreme way possible. This character will deal the most damage, they will have save DCs that cannot be hit, and they will generally take a look at an equal CR opponent and snicker before they go off to 1v1 an APL+3 CR opponent for the funsies.

This kind of gamer works hard and plays hard. They comb through hundreds and hundreds of pages to find the perfect combination of feats, features, spells, and abilities. They put in an extreme amount of effort into making absolutely certain that they are running the best. They check and cross-check everything from every angle and will discern what is the biggest bang for their buck at any given time. Does it target SR? Can I ratchet up the save DC? Does it provide the highest bonus? Is it consistent? That is what this gamer values. For them it is all about being the best at what they choose to do and that is how they derive their value from the game.

3. The Contrarian
This gamer name is a bit misleading, but not necessarily a bad thing. Sometimes contrarians are a kind of Optimizer. They will look at a game system and see if they can find a way to do the game in a way that was clearly not intended. These are the kinds of players who will decide, "I am going to make a character that will never kill anyone, ever." If they are playing in a game where the expected path to victory involves copious crimson wall and floor redecorating.

They aren't trying to be disruptive, but they tend to upset other gamers because usually the two methods simply don't work together and the contrarian really wants to see if their idea works. Often contrarians become something known as a "Diplomancer" but not always. Sometimes the contrarian will go the alternative route, they will build the combat monger in the social campaign, or build the super villain in the superhero campaign, they simply don't want to do what everyone else is doing. It could be because they don't like being part of the machine, they don't agree with a certain philosophy, or because they are simply bored of doing the same old thing. Regardless the Contrarian doesn't want to do things in the way they were intended.

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Now, not everyone fits into a neat little box. I, for example, sit somewhere between the Story Gamer and the Optimizer. I like to build good characters, but I see no reason to go to extremes, and I am interested in the RP and how the story plays out. I have a hint of contrarian in me as well, in that I will sometimes play the good character even in a setting where good is probably not always fitting.

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What is important is to note what each group of player really looks for though.

The Story Gamer wants simple rules, clear and concise, and doesn't want to spend hours and hours pouring over the mechanical aspects of their character. They get frustrated when they have to make too many mechanical choices because it isn't what they care about. They are going to like PF2's initial character creation, but may not be a fan of all of the feat choices because they simply don't want to make many choices about the mechanics of their character as that gets in the way of developing the character's personality, backstory, appearance, and interactions.

The Optimizer wants complex rules because complicated rules means that they have more to work with. They love the idea that PF2 has tons of feats, they just wish that those feats always had a higher mechanical impact. They aren't the kind of people who want to hit most of the time, they want to succeed all of the time, they want to be assured when they go in that they will win. The outcome, for them, was decided before a die was rolled. Because of PF2's much lower power level and higher dependence on randomization the Optimizer isn't overly pleased right now. They can't optimize to significant power levels and even if they do, a natural 1 is a failure even on skills. They long for what they could do in PF1, where they could shatter the world if they wanted to, because the game had a much higher power curve.

The Contrarian wants options. They want feats and such that upend the normal flow. They want a feat that lets them stop combat in its tracks to find a diplomatic solution. They want a feat that goes against the general flow of the game because it lets them do something different. They are the kind of person who wants 100% non-magical healing because they want to stick it to the magic users. They want a skill feat that lets them stop a combat in a single action and force the enemy to negotiate. They want something that lets them use Lore: Logic in place of Diplomacy to negotiate so that they can make a social character that relies on Intelligence. They want weird, different, and unique all the way. PF2 doesn't cater to this type of player at all. There are very few upending options.

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So, in closing, these simple rails can help you when formulating feedback. Instead of just saying: "X feat sucks." you can articulate why you feel it sucks, what appeals to you in general, and that goes a long way to getting changes.

Greetings,

I formed a group to begin play testing Pathfinder 2nd Edition under what I consider real world conditions. This is a detailed information thread about the game reported on session by session by myself, and the players giving their own feedback. I encourage my players to post here to give their own accounts.

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Player Characters:

Roc - Half-Elf Stormborn Druid - Level 1
Francois DuBois - Human - Fighter - Level 1
Valstryz - Elf Monk - Level 1
Callista Nox - Half-Elf Bard - Level 1
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Setup:
So I wrote a full AP that I have converted for use with PF2, there are no house-rules in effect save for banning of evil alignments, chaotic neutral alignments, and goblins.

The campaign will go from level 1 to around level 16.

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Legacy of the Serpent King

The PCs are all members of a guild called the Legacy, a small guild that has a strict rule that when one member retires they begin training an apprentice. The Legacy holds secrets which the initiates are not yet privy to. The new PCs are initiates who have been sent to Nybor in Varisia in order to pass the final test and officially become the next generation of the Legacy.

I went very old school.

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Character Creation:

All but one of my players had read the book and created their characters before the game time, which was this morning at 11:00am. One of our players didn't realize the game was today and had never read the book. He created Francois Dubois.

He arrived to game with no idea of his character, what he wanted to be, or how PF2 worked. With me, and the PDFs, he completed his character creation in less than 15 minutes.

He created a Human Fighter who uses a Rapier and Shield, primarily dexterity based and named him Francois DuBois.

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The player characters gathered in Nybor at an a Cafe I created called the Welcoming Breeze. I rolled 1d20 to determine who arrived when. They were able to find a table marked with the Legacy's sigil. When they had gathered, one of the servers brought them a rolled up scroll that had a letter written on it from the person they were going to meet, a Dwarf named Buenor Sandhammer.

This served to let them describe their characters and introduce themselves to one another in character. This gave them some roleplaying opportunity.

Buenor's letter told them that their first task was to find them. This triggered entry into "Exploration Mode."

I decided that there were 3 ways to locate Buenor.

1. Diplomacy, to gather information.
2. Perception, to just find the smithy shop.
3. Society, to simply know where it is.

The Difficulty was DC 12

It took 1 hour to make a check, after three successes cumulative between the three they would succeed. A critical success netted 2 successes.

They nailed it, each getting a success in their first attempt. This allowed them to reach Buenor Sandhammer very quickly and netted them some extra healing potions for performing so well.

After meeting Buenor they had some brief RP where he told them that their real test would begin in the morning. They crashed in the rooms above his blacksmithing shop for the night. The next morning he told them that adventuring costs money, and sometimes that means that you have to work, so their first task was to earn 15 silver pieces by the end of the day, the only caveats was that they couldn't rely on things they already had (such as selling the healing potions).

This was a chance to use the Downtime rules. At their level though they could only bring in a handful of silver. There was also a job's board, which contained an add looking for adventurers to help remove a dire rat infestation for a businessman. He put a bounty on each head they brought him.

They met with him to accept the job and such. Thus they met with a Halfling named Brewer Clem. Clem explained that he had purchased an old pub named the Drunken Traveler but, when he went to renovate it, a dire rat attacked him. Not being the sort to battle creatures, he has sought out PCs. He was offering 5 silver pieces a head.

One of the player characters, sensing a chance to earn extra coin, tried to convince Brewer Clem that they were well trained adventurers and that if he wanted the best he had to be willing to pay for the best.

I had him make a diplomacy roll, to which he succeeded, but not with a critical success. Brewer Clem did agree to raise the bounty to 6. The PC's agreed and off they went.

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Encounter Mode:

This session had 3 fights:

1. A lone Goblin Dog.

When the PCs got into the building they located the sound of scratching via getting a critical success on a perception check. Opening the door leading to it they encountered not a Dire Rat, but a Goblin Dog. A Nature roll revealed this and revealed what they do.

The first combat was a bit wonky.

The players, being very new, were also rolling pretty poorly. So it took 2-3 rounds to kill it. Eventually they got into the swing of things though and confidently moved on. The Fighter, Francois loved the shield block ability, and he managed to take no damage in the entire first fight.

2. A lone Goblin Dog, flanked by 2 more Goblin Dogs who arrived in the second round.

This one was over quickly. In the first round the Goblin Dog went first. Moving up to, and attacking, Val - The Monk - This did not go well for the Goblin Dog. After that, Roc managed to hit it with a Heavy Crossbow and then Val followed up by going into Tiger Stance and lashing out with a Flurry of Blows. A critical hit, followed by a normal hit, was enough to kill the Goblin Dog outright. He managed to save against the first Allergen, but failed against the second to gain the sickened 1 condition.

Then two more G. Dogs appeared, coming around from behind a pair of doors. Francois attacked one, but was unable to hit it, he raised his shield. It managed a heavy hit on Francois, but his Shield was ready and he was able to mitigate 5 of the 7 damage. Taking 2, and suffering a dent to his shield.

In short order they killed the remaining 2, with the Bard's Inspiration really helping them out and putting them over.

3. The final room (we only had time for a short session) in the game saw them get ambushed in the large main room by the remaining 3 Goblin Dogs. It was a surprise attack, but Francois rolled very high on his perception, acting first, despite having a -4 penalty.

None of the PCs took any damage in this fight, though Francois only managed that with a shield block that stopped a 3 damage hit.

The PCs were victorious, claiming 7 Goblin Dog heads, each worth 6 Silver Each, while also finding 5 extra silver in a torn jacket in an old coat rack while exploring. That brought their daily earnings up by 47 Silver Pieces.

We had to stop there, but the players enjoyed it. They experienced exploration mode, downtime, and encounter mode. They made characters that worked, and with little to no fuss, they managed to grasp the mechanics very well and seemed to have a handle on what their characters did very quickly.

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There were some complaints, one of my players felt that the lack of everyone being able to AoO made it hard to keep enemies off of casters, and I agree. Though they liked also how much more mobile combat seemed. One player in particular liked the 3 action rule, and felt he had greater player agency.

Francois seemed to love Shield Block.

That is my report. I hope you liked it. We will fill out some surveys as well, but I am linking my players here so they can comment as well. Thank you for your time.

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On page 333 of the Playtest Rulebook the "Aid Action" is mentioned... Which doesn't appear anywhere else in the book... That might be an issue.

Note:
The Action *does* exist as a reaction - Page 307

However - I don't think you *can* use reaction actions outside of Encounter Mode, for things like Exploration Mode.

Now, while common sense says otherwise, we don't use common sense when playtesting, if there is ambiguity it should be pointed out.

This is an impassioned plea to Mark Siefer, and hopefully my other Paladin brethren will get on-board here as well.

I love the Paladin, even those on the boards who hate my guts don't doubt, for one second that I love the Paladin with all my heart. The Paladin was the first class I played in 2nd Edition AD&D back in the Summer of 1988. Through the grace of phenomenal first time luck rolling my stats, 3d6, down the row... The dice lords smiled and bestowed on me a character who was very strong, pretty dexterous, tough as nails, not too bright, wiser than the average person, and with a smile and natural charisma that could brighten a room.

The GM, an older teenager, Sean, saw my array and said, "Well, when the dice have spoken like that, they've made you a Paladin. Henry, do you have what it takes to answer the call?"

I. Was. Hooked.

Paladin from that day forth became my thing. I was the Paladin guy. If there was a Paladin in a game, I didn't care how crappy it was mechanically I played it.

Thing is 2nd Edition AD&D Paladins weren't that great mechanically, but the stats needed to play one usually made you great none-the-less because your stats put you above almost anyone else.

So I suffered through 2nd edition, in the rare case when I could play one. I played them in 3rd Edition and 3.5 even though they still weren't that good. When 4th came around I abandoned the game because they didn't feel right...

Then came Pathfinder...

This was the Paladin I had waited my whole life for. This Paladin was freaking awesome. Smite Evil was the ultimate "Light in the Darkness" ability. It was amazing. Saves were amazing. Though Divine Grace was by far the best ability, and Lay on Hands was actually the iconic power (which I am glad to see in PF2 even if it feels very limited) of the class it was Smite Evil that was the "Oh crap" button that let the Paladin turn the dial up to 11 and lay the smack down on evil without hesitation of peerage.

This was the power that put the Pathfinder Paladin on the Paladin Map.

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Now we have PF2...

Look Mark, Paizo Devs, I know you had to ratchet down the power level, but... Retributive Strike just isn't doing it for me, there are even a few other threads saying the same thing right now... Retributive Strike is just... Bad.

Let us look at what it does:

It instantly locks the Paladin into a defend your team mates role.

I don't like this because every other class has multiple roles they can fill, the Paladin really doesn't. That is it, their signature ability can't be used save for to make what is in effect an attack of opportunity against an opponent who strikes an ally in melee combat whom the Paladin is adjacent to.

What does this mean? Well it means as a Paladin you can't charge the evil monster in front of you, because doing so loses you access to your class's defining ability. Your job, because of Retributive Strike, is to sit next to your companions and hope the enemy swings at them... If they do you can make basically an attack of opportunity at a -2 penalty that imparts a very minor debuff in damage but can, in some situations, prevent the attack from landing.

This isn't a bad power, but doesn't feel like it should be the class defining power. It feels like this should be a feat. Something you select if it is your play style.

It hurts the available options for Paladins based on the various deities.

Are you a Paladin of Erastil? I hope not. That guy uses bows primarily. Not only are you, as a Paladin, not good with bows (as you are pushed to heavy armor) but you literally can't use your class's primary ability while using that deity's favored weapon.

It hurts the available options for Paladins using their own options.

This ties into the first point some, but if you are taking the divine mount, you're going to want to charge. You can't really do that unless you give up your class's defining ability.

It forces Paladin players to be reactive rather than proactive.

This is kind of a big one, an important one, Paladins were never reactive. They were crusaders against evil, even in Golarion's lore Paladins charged into the World Wound and fought the demon hordes. They didn't sit back and wait for the demons to come to them, they went in there, they were active, they were Paladins. The most famous Paladin in Pathfinder lore, Iomedae, wasn't all that protective. Her deeds were all about 1 on 1 solo'ing evil to save people, not using her retributive strike.

What do I suggest?

I actually think there is an easy fix for this one.

There is a level 6 Paladin Feat called:

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Blade of Justice
Prerequisites righteous ally (blade)

Your righteous weapon becomes a powerful tool against evildoers. Select one foe that you can see, calling that enemy to face judgment. Until the start of your next turn, your damage rolls with your righteous weapon against that foe gain a conditional bonus equal to the number of weapon damage dice. This damage applies only if the foe is evil. This bonus damage is good damage.

Just make the following changes to it:

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Blade of Justice
Prerequisites: Must be wielding your Deity's Favored Weapon

Your righteous weapon becomes a powerful tool against evildoers. Select one foe that you can see, calling that enemy to face judgment. Until the start of your next turn, your damage rolls with your righteous weapon against that foe gain a conditional bonus equal to the number of weapon damage dice. This damage applies only if the foe is evil. This bonus damage is good damage.

If the target of your Blade of Justice within your reach, or within 30 feet if your deity's favored weapon is a ranged weapon, hits an ally or friendly creature. You may spend your reaction to make a melee Strike, called a Retributive Strike, against the target of your Blade of Justice at a –2 penalty before the opponent rolls the damage for the triggering hit.

If your attack hits, the target is enfeebled 1 for the remainder of its turn, or enfeebled 2 for the remainder of its turn if your Strike was a critical hit. The enfeebled condition ends immediately if the creature makes a Strike against you. If Retributive Strike incapacitates or kills the triggering creature, the triggering hit deals no damage.

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What would the above do?

1. It would give the Paladin a proactive ability that is more in line with Smite Evil from PF1.

2. It really isn't that big of a deal power-wise as, for a level 1 character, this is going to equal +1 damage.

3. It costs an action to "ready" each round, ala raising a shield.

4. It still allows the Paladin to play the defender role if the player chooses to.

5. It works with any deity's favored weapon, which also helps to push people away from what is quickly becoming the "go to" for optimizers of using a Bastard Sword due to the mechanical issues of shields interfering with Lay on Hands. (That should be looked at too, but that is for a different topic.)

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Thank you for reading this post, I put a lot of effort into making it as polite as I could.

Please like, comment, and maybe we can get a response from the Gods on high... IE the Paizo Devs.

Paizo, seriously, it is time to stop being baised against Heavy Armor.

Full Plate DOES NOT reduce your movement by over 30% and it DOES NOT inflict a -5 APC penalty.

I had a suit of Full Plate and (before I was crippled) I could perform a full blown cartwheel and backflip while wearing it.

This is just a bias against Strength builds.

Seriously, doesn't Strength already suffer enough?

It is the worst Ability Score second only to Charisma. The constant Dexterity bias is baffling though since Dexterity does so much more!

Strength - Dexterity
Melee Attack - Melee Attack (Finesse)
Melee Damage - Melee Damage (Rogue)
***** - Ranged Attack
Ranged Damage (limited) - *****
***** - AC
***** - TAC
1 Skill - 3 Skills
***** - Reflex Save
Encumbrance- *****

If we compare the two (giving 0.5 for a limited use):

Strength - Dexterity
1.0 - 1.0 (finesse weapons are common enough this isnt a limit)
1.0 - 0.5
0.0 - 1.0
0.5 - 0.0
0.0 - 1.0
0.0 - 1.0
1.0 - 3.0
0.0 - 1.0
1.0 - 0.0

Strength: 4.5
Dexterity: 8.5

Fix the disparity - Remove movement penalties and ACP penalties from heavy armor, especially heavy armor that IRL has to be fitted and tailored to the wearer. The added bulk should be enough.

Looking at some Paladin Builds for efficiency
(That can be used to test things at a moderate-high level of optimization, which usually the Pregens don't have.)

So I am making a suit of Paladins for the Playtest Rules:

Paladin Level 1:

Human Paladin, Lawful Good
Level: 1

HP: 18
Size: Medium
Move: 25 (20 in Armor)

AC: 15 (17 Shield) TAC: 13 (15 Shield)

Ability Scores
Str 18
Dex 12
Con 10
Int 10
Wis 12
Cha 16

Ability Boosts:
Human Ability Boosts: Str, Cha
Background Ability Boosts: Cha, Str
Free Ability Boosts (4): Str, Cha, Dex, Wis
Class Ability Boost: Str

Languages: Common, Celestial

Traits:
Human, Humanoid

Background:
Noble

Feats:
Human Ancestry Feat: General Training: Cultural Familiarity (Human)
Background: Warrior: Quick Repair

Perception: (Trained)

Saves:
Fortitude (Expert) +2
Reflex (Trained) +0
Will (Expert) +2

Skills: (4+)
Warfare Lore Skill (Trained) (Int) +1
Medicine (Trained) (Wis) +1
*Athletics (Trained) (Str) +5
*Religion (Trained) (Wis) +2
*Diplomacy (Trained) (Cha) +4
*Craft (Trained) (Int) +1

Weapons:
Trained in all Simple and Martial

Armor:
Trained in all Armor and Shields

Signature Skills:
Athletics
Crafting
Diplomacy
Religion
*Medicine

Champion Powers:
Lay on Hands (1d6+3) (1 Spell Point)

Special Abilities:
Deific Weapon: Longsword
Retributive Strike

Class Feats:
Hospice Knight (Medicine is a Signature and trained, D6 healing)

Bulk: 9
Currency: 18 SP 2 CP

Equipment:

Weapons: (13 SP) (Bulk 1.3)
Longsword 10 SP (1d8 Slash, 1 bulk, 1 hand, Versatile P)
Javeline (3) 3 SP (1d6 P, 30 ft, Bulk L)

Armor: (80 SP) (Bulk 2)
Breastplate 80 SP (+4 AC, +2 TAC, +3 Dex, -4 Check, -5ft, Bulk 2, Clumsy)

Shield: (20 SP) (Bulk 1)
Heavy Steel Shield 20 SP (+2 AC, +2 TAC, -1 Check, Bulk 1)

Gear: (18 SP, 8 CP) (2 Bulk, 10 L Bulk)
Backpack (1 SP, 0 Bulk)
Basic Crafter's Book (1 SP, L Bulk, 2 Hands)
Belt Pouch (4 CP, 0 Bulk)
Climbing Kit (5 SP, 1 Bulk, 2 Hands)
Clothing (Ordinary) (1 SP)
Clothing (Winter) (4 SP)
Rations 5day (2.5 SP) (5 L Bulk)
Oil (5) (5 CP)
Rope 50 ft Hemp (1 SP, 1 Bulk)
Wooden Holy Symbol (1 SP, 1 L Bulk)
Bedroll (1 CP, 1 L)
Pup Tent (8 CP, 1 L Bulk)
Waterskin (5 CP, 1 L Bulk)

Bulk: 7.3

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Offense:
Longsword +5 (1d8+4 Slash, Versatile P)
Javeline +2 (1d6 Pierce)

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Reasons for things:
The Paladin here has a shield, but is more or less a single longsword, open hand, has the shield to jump AC if they are low on LoH. Good for using Retributive Strike with a low AC to draw attacks toward them.

In the future it plans on being able to use the shield and the full use of LoH.

Okay Paizo,

Now, I have spent most of the day running numbers. I'll be doing in-depth testing to prove this as well, but I already see a serious issue. That issue is with the Rogue.

So, here is the problem with the "Skill Class" in games, and if you want to see this just look at the Starfinder "Operative" class. Also known as "The Best" (and to many the most hated) class in the game. You don't have the "Skill Class" ever.

If you are going to make one class simply better at every single skill than every other class then you simply make all other classes redundant. Now, certainly, there will be cases where someone who focuses on a skill in a group that the Rogue doesn't they will be able to pass the Rogue...

It shouldn't be that hard, it specifically should NEVER be that hard.

The Rogue really needs to fall into one of two categories:

1. The Master of Unlocking...

The Jill Valentine, the quintessential rogue, the best at stealing, stealthing, disarming traps, and picking locks. That should be what the rogue is the best at. They should be okay at a bunch of other skills, but those should be their "things" per se.

2. The Jack of All Trades, but the Master of Jack Squat...

They get all the skills, but they never reach really high level in any of them as they are good at everything. They'll be outmatched against anyone else who has a specialty, but they'll be able to do just about everything pretty well so in a pinch, when nobody else can do the job, the Rogue is there. Unless it is thieving, then the Rogue is the best hands down.

Please, do NOT do this again, do not make this mistake. You did this same error in Starfinder. Jack of All, Master of None.

If you really MUST make them the best at all skills then make them the worst in combat. I mean the dead worst. Like, if a Rogue, a Fighter, and a Paladin are put in situations if the Rogue is leaps and bounds ahead of the Fighter and Paladin in skills then in combat the Rogue should be as far behind in combat... That means no cool combat tricks, no nifty bonus damage, no cool stunts... They should be stuck in the realm of:

"I help people out in combat, but I can't really kill things."

If they are going to be THAT much better in skills.

We'll be doing some in-depth number crunching to prove this issue, and by we, I mean a pretty big contingent of people in organized play that I know. We do NOT want Operative 2.0, but we'll be fair. If we find that our theories are correct, hey, cool, we'll be up front and we will show you where the problem is. If we find out we're incorrect, we'll say that too.

This is a thread dedicated to gathering, and sharing, data regarding the rogue. This thread will be for posting hypothesis and theory crafting regarding the rogue that can be a serious problem.

Up on the initial docket will be investigating raw rogue, but also a concern for some multiclasses, the first one that people have already expressed concern is what happens when a Rogue goes high intelligence and what happens if they also go Wizard Devotion.

Stay tuned here for more information and feel free to talk about your own ideas and theories.

This is early testing, so lets test.

Thank you.

So...

They are supposed to be on page 192. They are not. So... What exactly are the Paladin's powers that we can't actually test yet? Heh.

This is weird. My account obviously exists as I'm logged in. I went to make a purchase for PFS tomorrow, but can't log in. It says there is no account associated with my email address.

Even though there is, or I wouldn't be able to post this.

So far we've been focusing on mechanics, but since this is Golarion, and basically physics have fundamentally changed are we getting an explanation for it, ala Starfinder's gap?

Why or why not? Discuss here.

Ps. Sorry if this double posted, was having issues...

Okay - This is (yet another) Paladin thread...

With a twist...

THREAD RULES:
This is not an alignment thread. In PF2, at least the Playtest, Paladins are LG, like it or hate it this is not the place to discuss it. This is a thread about mechanics that you like and would like to see. Such as, "What I liked doing with Paladins in PF1." and "What I would like to be able to do with a Paladin in PF2." situations.

Please, again, do not try to add something like:
"What I would like is for Paladins to not be LG."

We have had enough of those. They get locked. Let us focus in here on things we want to see.

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I'll go first...

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In one of the now perma-locked threads I mentioned that I always wanted to have a decent Angel Transformation as a Paladin. It was revealed by Mark that we can indeed do that through a feat. A feat to just have wings. Squee.

One of the things I liked in PF1, that I never got to do, was use the feat combination to have a blade beam.

For those unfamiliar with that...

If you took the word of healing feat, and the sunblade feat, you could spend a use of LOH to shoot a blast of fire from your weapon (as a Kineticist) if you were using the weapon of a deity with the sun domain.

It was a blade beam. Legend of Zelda style. I hope this somehow makes it into PF2.

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Smite Evil

I love PF1's Smite Evil. After its Smite Evil all other Smites (see 5e) feel so weak and pathetic. I want PF1 Smite Evil to make a comeback. I loved RP'ing it as gaining a heavenly divine aura that protected me from harm as it surrounded my weapon and let it cut through the defenses of my enemy.

I want PF1's Smite Evil to make it to PF2. I doubt it will, but I still want it.

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Bracers of the Merciful Knight

The staple of the Healadin of PF1. The magical bracers that were almost too good not to have if you were a Healadin. I want this back.

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What I want, but never got:

I would LOVE, absolutely love, the ability to summon forth a magical energy sword version of my deity's favored weapon.

I would totally love a feat that let me hold my hand out, and from it spring a glowing longsword of force. Basically what the Solarian in Starfinder can do. I want a Paladin to do that. I want that to be a feat. The idea that, no matter what, you can't disarm the Paladin.

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What other things would you all like to see as possibilities?

(I can't find the original thread)

Well... I finally did it... I did find a no-win situation that can force a Paladin fall in PF2.

Not only does this not require a very difficult circumstance, but it also is really easy to have happen.

Note:
This only effects Paladins of Shelyn - They are the only one I had enough info on to break.

Bonus points:
This one doesn't rely on ANY acts of evil at all. This is a straight Lawful fall.

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Situation:
A Paladin of Shelyn is in a city that has recently elected very strict authoritarian. A decent number of the citizens are protesting the election, even though he was elected legally. One of their methods of protest is to paint images on the inside of the city wall depicting the newly elected leader in embarrassing and compromising positions.

Some of these paintings are quite good.

Angry, the dictator orders the city guard to clean the walls, effectively destroy the paintings, and arrest anyone they see who is trying to protect the images.

Under Shelyn's Anathema the Paladin must protect the works of art.
Under the Paladin Code she can't fight the city guard.

Under the Paladin code she could break her 4th tenet if there was immanent loss of life, there isn't however. The only thing at risk is the paintings.

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This may be the first legitimate no-win situation we have seen for a PF2 Paladin... As a bonus this doesn't involve an evil action at all. Meaning this is a straight lawful fall.

Well Mark, did I succeed at the debug challenge?

So let us set some ground rules for this thread, as it is impossible to discuss this topic without bringing alignment into it.

The purpose of this thread is not to debate "if" undead are evil, or if undead *should* be evil. It works from the fact that in the Golarion setting (most) undead are evil and seeks only to come up with non-lore violating justifications for this evil that we would like to see brought into PF2.

GROUND RULES

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1. For the purposes of this thread and all discussion within it the word "Pathfinder" refers to the Pathfinder RPG in the Golarion setting.

2. This thread assumes that Alignment is in PF2 - Which we have confirmed - and that it works mostly the same way it does in PF1.

3. This thread assumes that Alignment in PF2, like in PF1, is largely objective rather than subjective. By this we mean that, while there are some exceptions to the rule, generally speaking, in Pathfinder, good and evil are non subjective terms.

4. This thread assumes that the ends do not justify the means. Meaning that arguments, for example, that using Infernal Healing to heal an injured innocent doesn't make casting Infernal Healing a good or neutral act. Healing the innocent might be a good act. Using Infernal Healing is an evil act. These two things have no bearing on one another. For most situations that stated scenario would result in someone not shifting more toward evil, or good, as it would be an evil act followed by a good act. In the case of someone with restrictions, however, IE a Paladin, this would result in a fall as there was still an evil act committed.

5. All posters who post in this thread understand and accept that Pathfinder uses its own definition for Good, Evil, and Neutral acts. These definitions may or may not align with anyone's real world beliefs on Good, Evil, and Neutrality. Arguments based on anyone's real world understanding of Good, Evil, and Neutrality aren't pursuant to the topic as we are only discussing the Pathfinder setting as outlined in this document and the preface there in.

6. Posters discussing in this thread are expected to discuss based on the setting and canon. Meaning that nobody here is allowed to argue against the setting and canon. Any such arguments, such as "the setting is wrong" should be discarded by thread participants as we are discussing the setting and those bits of lore and canon make the setting what it is.

So those are the thread ground rules - Please don't argue against those facts in discussion pursuant to this topic because that kills all possible debate on the undead topic as it turns it into another, "Alignment" debate.

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So, in Pathfinder undead, with rare exceptions, notably Ghosts, some Vampires, and the like, are evil. Regardless of any of our personal opinions this is an immutable fact about the setting. Since we are exclusively discussing the setting this is a fact that must be accepted.

As per comments by James Jacobs - Undead created using the spell "Animate Dead" are evil because it requires a piece of the soul of the being that you are animating, it rips it from wherever it is, and tortures it in order to animate the undead. This creates a creature that is fueled by pain, hate, and suffering.

Further comments by James Jacobs (and no I am not digging up the quotes, these are in the "Ask James Jacobs" threads left and right, and have been around for so long by this point they don't need citation) have stated that undead, like outsiders, have proscriptive rather than descriptive alignments. Meaning that their alignment isn't determined by their actions, but that their actions are determined by their alignment.

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It would be helpful if posters discuss one individual undead at a time in this thread rather than relying on pure blanket statements. For example. Someone who wishes to come up with a detailed explanation on why Zombies are evil, should focus a single post on why zombies are evil.

Example:

Zombies are evil for a number of reasons. The first of which is, like all undead, the zombie cannot be resurrected while still in the undead state. Secondly the Zombie, if left to its own devices, will attack, kill, and if possible infect, others without remorse or hesitation. They are, what amounts to, an unholy plague that seeks only to spread pain, suffering, and itself. Possessing only instincts, some might attempt to argue that the Zombie should be neutral, but as we know that they are not neutral, the should argument is discounted. These instincts are not to feed, or even to spread itself, but is simply out of an instinct to inflict pain and suffering. For these reasons Zombies are evil.

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Now, your turn...

You've made too many comments that "may or may not" pertain to Paladin.

1. A comment about armor focus being "another class" many assuming Paladin.

2. Comments that Paladins need to be careful with alignment but no comment on if that means LG only or not.

3. Anathema has created a whole new deluge of Paladin threads.

4. A Paladin was IN one of the playtests and yet we know very little.

5. It is the most popular discussed class.

6. For a number of people (me included) it is going to be the decider for if we stick with PF2 or not. We are waiting to decide.

Thus it is time. No more stalling. It has become silly. So bite the bullet and give us the blog so those who are going to stay can stay and those who are going to go can go. Please stop leading us around by being vauge and evasive.

The Magus was popular, but since BAB no longer exists - All you need is proficiency really to be full BAB and iteratives are governed by Action Economy there is a legitimate case to be made for there to be no need for a class to Gish.

In theory a Wizard can melee, thus if they're already in melee range they can use two actions to cast a Verbal and Somantic Spell and use one action to melee.

Since only Fighters get an AoO they likely won't need to fear that.

But cast a spell and attack with full BAB as a "Full Action" at level 1? Sounds Magus-like to me.

So far we've seen an article on Alchemists and then on Alchemy.

With so few other articles it worries me that two have been on the same topic. On a class that shouldn't even be in a CRB as it's not a core class.

It feels... Odd... And worries me... That this class is getting so much preferential treatment.

Developer bias is a thing (see Guardians of the Veil from the initial Mage the Awakening - or just look at Starfinder's Operative) and this smells all kinds of suspect to me.

With non-martials now getting effective full BAB (anyone with proficiency gets full BAB) there is no longer a reason to have touch AC. Not only is touch AC very biased against Heavy Armor users, but with the new critical rules it means that Heavily Armored characters are going to suffer near constant crits from spell cantrips, which scale with level in the new system, and target touch AC.

Lets toss touch AC, it isn't needed, it doesn't serve the purpose it was invented for (Which was to allow wizards to hit with a poorer attack bonus), and level the field between armor types. I mean Heavy Armor already gets the shaft enough as it is.

So...

Because of the wording used in the Halfling/Gnome blog... Some people are under the assumption that the stats for this game will be:

"You have 10 in everything, but you have 2 +2's, and 1 floating +2! Stats will be low!"

But we have Kyra's stats.

She has:

Strength 14
Dexterity 12
Constitution 10
Intelligence 10
Wisdom 18
Charisma 14

And yet some people still shout, "No! The blog post said they start as tens! The blog posssst!"

Okay, seriously, they are saying that the DEFAULT VALUE is 10. Just like in Starfinder. Just like the default Value in Pathfinder is 8. Please stop the panic and stop telling people that the highest you can have at start is a 14.

We know that isn't true.

So Paizo...

Let us talk Paladins...

So Gwyn of Nybor is my baby - My level 10 PFS Paladin.

Gwyn is a heck of a lot of fun to play. He's a "Sponge Tank" meaning that his AC is low, his HP is moderate, but his recovery is stupid high.

He follows the feat path of:

Human: Fey Foundling
1st: Power Attack
3rd: Greater Mercy
5th: Weapon Focus: Longsword (Iomedae!)
7th: Extra LoH
9th: Ultimate Mercy

Started with a 16 Charisma, raised to 18 at 4 & 8, bumped to 20 through a headband.

Buffered with Bracers of the Merciful Knight this non-shield using heavily armored juggernaugt gets hit by everything and just heals through it.

With an effective LoH as a level 14 Paladin, Greater Mercy means he usually self heals as a swift action for 8d6+16 damage. There is also Hero's Defiance as a backup.

He's rocking 14 (7+5+2) LoH's per day.

This avg 44 healing per is enough to keep up with incoming damage and his longsword's two handed power attacks hurt plenty.

Gwyn is an aggressive tank. He's not some high AC shield user who hits like tissue paper. He's an offensive threat. Hitting for 1d8+17 damage per swing or 1d8+27 while Smiting.

His AC is low, so everything hits him, which is how he likes it. The more things beating on him the less his allies are getting smacked around. He is dealing out, usually, as good as he gets.

Saves? Gwyn has saves. He's got great saves! Even with his 10 Dex and 8 wisdom his lowest save is a +10, his highest is a +15.

He's got it all. Self healing, good damage, he can heal allies, channel positive in a pinch, and has a few nice spells when the need arises.

I don't want that to change in PF2. I want this kind of playstyle to remain viable. Can you at least promise me that?

I'm worried as it seems you're pushing Pallies to be armor Masters and... That isn't really cool.

Now - The following is in essay format.

I am going to preface this with the following:

If you are going to reply to this, please give reasons that are legitimate and pursuant to the essay.

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Many things in gaming are heavily opinion-based. This is a fact. This is a fact that cannot be denied. Likewise, many things in gaming are diametrically opposed, and as such compromise that makes everyone happy literally isn't possible. This causes a significant amount of friction in the player base and is why things like Paladin Alignments and Goblins as Core are so hot button.

Lawful Good Paladin proponents cannot compromise with non-Lawful Good Paladin proponents because, quite simply, if one only wants Lawful Good Paladins then anything that allows non-Lawful Good Paladins isn't a compromise anymore. That is simply losing.

Thus the non-Lawful Good Only Paladin supporters like to argue that the pro-Lawful Good only supporters refuse to compromise. That is because there literally cannot be compromise on that issue because it is a binary argument. A 1 or a 0, a yes or a no, there is no third option.

This is more broadly displayed in the terms of world flavor. You have generally three types of players:

Type I:
These types of gamers like the flavor and the lore of the world. They read everything they can, they write up characters who have backstories tied to the background of a city rather than just naming one. They care deeply for the story and world flavor and that is their primary consideration when they begin character design. For the rest of this essay we will call these gamers: Narrative Gamers.

Type II:
These types of gamers are primarily concerned with mechanical freedom. They may care about some parts of the lore, but generally see it as a suggestion. Classes don't have flavor to these players, they are mechanical shells that they can slap onto any character they create and they, generally, want to make what they make, and don't care if it fits with the lore or not. They want to play what they want to play and anything that says otherwise can take a long walk off of a short pier. These are the types of gamers who will create a character that resembles an anime protagonists because they can. For the rest of this essay we will call these gamers: Agency Gamers.

Type III:
These types of gamers straddle the boundaries between Narrative and Agency Gamers. They like freedom, but they don't like to go too extreme. They will see the anime character and shake their head saying, "Really? This isn't Naruto the RPG ya know!" While at the same time they will see the overly detailed lore-shackled Paladin and say, "Pull the stick out and lighten up!" We will call these gamers: Average Gamers.

For the most part Average Gamers make up the bulk of the gamer population, I'd wager they make up around 50% of the gaming population. The other two seem to exist in equal population, around 25% each. The forum-goer numbers do skew toward the Agency gamer, but is not indicative of the actual population of gamers as a whole.

The problem, and issue, generally comes between Agency and Narrative Gamers. The reason is that the source of enjoyment they get out of the game is literally in opposition to each other. The less lore and canon adherence the less fun the Narrative gamer has. The more restrictions and lack of freedom the Agency gamer has the less fun they have. This means that, in general, there will never be consensus between those two fringe groups.

This isn't because Narrative Gamers are unreasonable, and it isn't because Agency Gamers are unreasonable, it is simply because the source of each group's enjoyment detracts from the enjoyment of the other group.

I am a Narrative Gamer - I love the story and the lore and, to me, it is a greater challenge to design a character within that lore and framework. I get a lot of enjoyment making sure my character fits and I have fun when the world, situations, and characters I interact with fit within that setting. This includes other PCs.

So when I play with someone who sees classes as chassis for powers, who want to play the oddest thing they can come up with, that is outright ridiculous who doesn't particularly care about the world setting, it sours the experience for me.

This is not to confuse Agency players as Power Gamers either. You can get Power Gamers in all groups. I have seen lore adherent characters who break the game just as much as the Cavalier who won't even enter a bar unless they can take their mount or the character who is literally based solely on a character from Naruto.

(No joke: I played the Solstice Scar event and one player refused to go into the opening scene unless they were allowed to ride their Axe Beak mount into the bar, and I have played PFS with a character who literally built a character from Naruto.)

In PFS I will grit my teeth and get through the scenario. In non-PFS, if I am the GM I'll curb that stuff in creation, if I am a player and it is allowed I will often simply leave the group to find a different group.

This is why PF2e is such a stress-inducing thing for me.

PF1 had clear lore as part of the core. Sure you could play a Goblin - In a home game, but it wasn't part of the main ruleset. Sure you could play a Neutral pure Paladin in a home game (or Mythic game) but they weren't available as actual default choices. To me, every step that the game takes toward removing more of the world flavor is another step that it takes away from making it something I want to play.

As a GM it makes my job harder, as it is easier for a home GM to remove a restriction than to put one back in place. There is less push back from players in the former than in the latter. As a player it makes my job harder in home games because it is part of the new core set, and in PFS it is impossible as there is literally nothing I can do.

What it generally means is that I am less inclined to purchase the new product since I know that I am going to not play it in society play, and I am unlikely to play it outside of a home game, and when I do play it in a home game I am going to have to do significant re-writing of the game which makes PF1 easier to run as I don't have to give my players a multi-page addendum guide to read so that they can understand the setting.

So... If the Agency Players get their way fully, which so far it appears that they are... Then we Narrative Players suffer.

The only way for Paizo to go forward is to give the Agency Players their thing (Goblins in Core) and the Narrative Players their thing (Lawful Good Only Paladins) so that both sides get just as much out of 2e as the other.

The issue is, however, that this creates a slippery slope.

If every time the Narrative Gamers get to keep half of what they want, while the Agency players get half of what they want, the Narrative players face eventual extinction as future versions of the game come out.

Example:
If there are 10 things Narrative Gamers care about in PF1, and in PF2 they lose 5 things, and the Agency Gamers get 5 things changed that they want. That only leaves 5 things for the Narrative Gamers.

If then PF3 comes out, and there are only 5 things left for the Narrative Gamers, and they lose half, keeping 2 things while the Agency Gamers get 3. Then there are only 2 things left for the Narrative Gamer.

Then, in PF4, they have only one thing remaining. By PF5 they are extinct.

So I urge Paizo, err on the side of the Narrative Gamers. They have a lot more to lose than the Agency Gamer and it is easier for a GM to give an Agency Gamer something by removing a restriction, than it is for a Narrative Gamer to put that restriction back.

Thank you.

Now - To preface this... I want Paladins to stay Lawful Good. I feel it adds flavor to the class. I do not want non-LG Paladins, I do not want 5e Paladins.

That having been said... Paladin debates are going to keep going on unless someone from Paizo chimes in.

So... Please... Someone who can... Come in and say:

1. Paladins are remaining Lawful Good.

or

2. Paladins are not remaining Lawful Good.

End it, or it is going to keep going on and on. Yes, I probably will leave if they are opened up... I don't care at this point though, I'd rather know now before I get invested in PF 2e, and if we don't then the Paladin threads are going to consume this board.

Paizo, your recent post on reactions made it sound like each class only gets one possible *option* for a reaction in addition to only getting one reaction per turn:

IE. Fighters can *only* AoO, Paladins can *only* Shield Block (conversely forcing all Paladins to be shield-a-dins). We know Wizards with the shield spell can also shield block.

Can you clarify please?

This is a HUGE one:

Currently in Pathfinder and Starfinder there is a disparity within the ability scores.

Strength - (some) Melee Attacks, (some) Melee Damage, Encumbrance, CMB, CMD, Swim, and Climb.

Dexterity - (some) Melee Attacks, (some) Melee Damage, Ranged Attacks, Armor Class, CMD, Reflex Saves, Initiative, Acrobatics, Sleight of Hand, Disable Device, and Stealth.

Constitution - HP and Fortitude Saves.

Intelligence - Skill Points per level, a LOT of skills, and Bonus Languages.

Wisdom - Will Saves and a lot of key skills.

Charisma - Some key skills.

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So we know some of this changed, such as initiative, but Dexterity still seems disproportionately powerful, while Charisma is disproportionately weak.

I would like to see Pathfinder 2nd Edition take a look at this.

Here are my suggestions:

1. Do not allow any form of Dexterity to damage save for potentially for rogues.

2. Consider allowing characters to use Wisdom or Charisma for Will Saves. Charisma would represent a character's force of personality asserting itself.

3. Strip some of the uses for Dexterity out of the system.

Since we have 2nd Edition...

I am taking the chance to try a plea that I fully expect will fall on deaf ears... I feel that I have to try though regardless...

We have a chance to bring the Paladin back...

Years ago Gary Gygax, the reason we have this game, had a class that he loved more than any other. The Paladin. The idea of a warrior of good that was the epitome of virtue. He was the knight in shining armor who righted wrongs and triumphed over evil.

Paladins were NOT "just" a class...

They were special... And they had special rules...

What were those rules?

1. You had to be Lawful Good

2. You couldn't become a Paladin you had one chance to answer the call and if you didn't, that was it.

3. The Paladin required a serious mind and strict dedication, you couldn't leave the Paladin and come back.

I, personally want these things again. I don't want it to be watered down. Gygax intended it to be special, I think that, since we owe pretty much this entire past time to him, it is the least we can do.

Now, this is in Homebrew and will contain spoilers.

This thread is about making SFS Scenarios more inclusive for home games. While I'd love to be able to do this for SFS, I'd rather focus on something we can do something about.

Scenario 01-04 will put a melee character to sleep. I recently ran it as a player in SFS and I literally lost my attention because it had been so long since I could do anything that I straight zoned out.

Obviously I don't mean combat, though the combats were a joke, but there are other things.

1. Athletics checks:
You're on a damaged ship. Make some required Athletics rolls. There are like 80 billion Engineering rolls, you can have a gap or two, or a pile of rubble that needs to be moved.

2. Vesk Games:
After the Vesk ship encounter have the two crews meet. Toss some friendly person combat and feats of strength and Athleticism in there for prizes and honor.

If you're running this in a home game, these will keep your melee Solarians and Soldiers in the game as active participants rather than very bored observers.