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It looks like, after the stream Charisma is no longer part of Resonance.
That means, just like in PF1, Charisma is only good for very specific purposes.
The most powerful stats are still Dex, Con, and Wis.
I'm a little sad to be honest.
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Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
I am a bit disappointed about that as well. is their a post retelling what the stream said? I've heard something about focus points an dit being rolled into a simillar with spell points?
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Maybe wait until we see the actual rules before making doom and gloom declarations?
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Well, Resonance is just "item slots" now, so it's a fixed number. Charisma fuels "focus" which is "consumable use plus spell points."
What I'm worried about is whether monks and druids and other people who wanted to use powers can afford low Charisma now.
Focus is supposedly going to be tied to Charisma, but it was kind of confusing for how it would work, since they also said spell point casters would have something different going on, but I don't know if that means they'll get something like the Alchemist's "Replace [X stat] for Cha for Focus" or getting flat extra focus, or adding [X stat] in addition to Cha, so it's yet to see if it's actually worth it any more.
Charisma will still be important to many Paladins and most Clerics, along with the aforementioned characters of any class who want to focus on spell point use.
There are also the classic skill uses such as Diplomacy, Intimidate, and Performance.
Charisma has the same role as Strength or Intelligence in relation to characters both in and out of combat. Some will have a central focus on it, some will be average members of the populace. That kind of variety is a good thing.
Freagarthach wrote: Charisma will still be important to many Paladins and most Clerics, along with the aforementioned characters of any class who want to focus on spell point use.
There are also the classic skill uses such as Diplomacy, Intimidate, and Performance.
Charisma has the same role as Strength or Intelligence in relation to characters both in and out of combat. Some will have a central focus on it, some will be average members of the populace. That kind of variety is a good thing.
The issue is the weakness that Strength and Charisma have compared to Dexterity, Constitution, and Wisdom
HWalsh wrote: The issue is the weakness that Strength and Charisma have compared to Dexterity, Constitution, and Wisdom I'd concur; Dex/Con/Wis are the most valuable ability scores in the game due to increasing your saving throws (with Dex being the god stat since it also affects AC). Str is good if you want melee DPR, but Int and Cha are basically only worthwhile if you have class features you need to fuel or prerequisites you need to fulfill.
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I don't think it will be a dump stat given they're actively finding other uses for it. e.g. Focus and probably unannounced changes.
However, every character needs a dump stat, or two, if we're being honest.
For instance, the Wild Shape druid needs Strength, Charisma, and Wisdom. If you're going to go down the Paizo iconic path and choose a Gnome, that means you're already in the hole w.r.t to Strength. Constitution might be a good choice since you get a boost there but if using the standard set, you're also losing HP. Not a great starting situation.
This is where I think the devs could spend some more time on. Not every stat needs to be useful to every character. Could usefulness be spread around some? Certainly. But not to the point where characters are gimped by not having a score of ten or more.
pixierose wrote: I am a bit disappointed about that as well. is their a post retelling what the stream said? I've heard something about focus points an dit being rolled into a simillar with spell points? Right here.
Charisma will determine your Focus point pool, which is what will allow you to supercharge magic items and/or make use of special powers.
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Focus....so now we have yet another resource track to watch. This is needed why?
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Greylurker wrote: Focus....so now we have yet another resource track to watch. This is needed why? Focus replaces "Spell Points" so it's exactly the same number of things to track (plus the name is better.)
This also means Paladins can't supercharge items if they want to use LoH.
Wait we're going back to the dreaded slot system?
Say it ain't so. I don't know if my heart can bare it.
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MerlinCross wrote: Wait we're going back to the dreaded slot system?
Say it ain't so. I don't know if my heart can bare it.
If you consider a flat 10 items a "slot system", yes.
Cyouni wrote: MerlinCross wrote: Wait we're going back to the dreaded slot system?
Say it ain't so. I don't know if my heart can bare it.
If you consider a flat 10 items a "slot system", yes. I consider that a fine amount of items though unsure how.... I suppose hand held, items will work.
Like would a Bag of Holding go into the 10 slots? I'm assuming stuff that is held or worn will go in, like Cloak, Boots, Weapon/Armor. I'm going to assume anything with the Trinket Tag doesn't apply, but there's probably a few items that might need to be clarified if they are going to take a slot or not.
Have to see how it works out when the update hit.s
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Pathfinder PF Special Edition Subscriber
If you watch the Twitch video around minute 50, you'll see that Charisma actually gets quite a boost from this change. Charisma is the main stat for Focus, and Focus is scarce, as it doesn't scale with level. Focus will now be used to activate powers, replacing Spell Points (this neatly solves the terminology issue too). The key is that powers are going to be significantly boosted, making Cha a more attractive stat. Mark explained why this creates the potential for a wizard with Cha as a secondary stat.
So this is a pretty far reaching change impacting not just magic items but also powers, and it requires rewriting many of them.
MerlinCross wrote: Cyouni wrote: MerlinCross wrote: Wait we're going back to the dreaded slot system?
Say it ain't so. I don't know if my heart can bare it.
If you consider a flat 10 items a "slot system", yes. I consider that a fine amount of items though unsure how.... I suppose hand held, items will work.
Like would a Bag of Holding go into the 10 slots? I'm assuming stuff that is held or worn will go in, like Cloak, Boots, Weapon/Armor. I'm going to assume anything with the Trinket Tag doesn't apply, but there's probably a few items that might need to be clarified if they are going to take a slot or not.
Have to see how it works out when the update hit.s assuming I understand it. It basically.. isn't different from before.
Invest in items, but you only get the 10 to invest.
so any item that has invest requirement now will have that.
So fucntionally the same as it is now, with the exception that the pool doesn't grow, nor has it an alternate use.
So I think 10 items invested at a time.
No clue if you can uninvest and reinvest. or if thats "daily prep" only
i assume so.
gwynfrid wrote: If you watch the Twitch video around minute 50, you'll see that Charisma actually gets quite a boost from this change. Charisma is the main stat for Focus, and Focus is scarce, as it doesn't scale with level. Focus will now be used to activate powers, replacing Spell Points (this neatly solves the terminology issue too). The key is that powers are going to be significantly boosted, making Cha a more attractive stat. Mark explained why this creates the potential for a wizard with Cha as a secondary stat.
So this is a pretty far reaching change impacting not just magic items but also powers, and it requires rewriting many of them.
Including Alchemist.
But I'd rather read the changes than listen to them. That's just how I learn, read and do not sit and hear.
Personally I'm kinda done with giving back my own feedback but Resonance was one of the bigger things I disliked to seeing how Focus replaces it, AND changes a bunch of things..., well I'll stick around to test that as it's a pretty big change.
Powerful items could have a higher investment cost, eating up 2 or 3 points
Paizo is going to have to increase the Spell Points for Spell Point classes. If they don't Paladins and others are going to miss out on being able to use items or their class abilities.
HWalsh wrote: Paizo is going to have to increase the Spell Points for Spell Point classes. If they don't Paladins and others are going to miss out on being able to use items or their class abilities. well if you ask me my gut says all spell point using class get spheres of power style treatment to them so in end game we might look 26 points in spell pool if we dont go all the way in to spheres and intruduce drawback as well then we basicly in end game 52 point pool which is good enough to pull decent enough shenanigans for a while.
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khadgar567 wrote: HWalsh wrote: Paizo is going to have to increase the Spell Points for Spell Point classes. If they don't Paladins and others are going to miss out on being able to use items or their class abilities. well if you ask me my gut says all spell point using class get spheres of power style treatment to them so in end game we might look 26 points in spell pool if we dont go all the way in to spheres and intruduce drawback as well then we basicly in end game 52 point pool which is good enough to pull decent enough shenanigans for a while. I don't like Spheres of Power. It was 3pp and generally created balance issues in the game we tried it in.
I think you took his comment too literally Hwalsh. I don't think he was suggesting grabbing Spheres and adding it in directly.
MartiniPhilosopher wrote: However, every character needs a dump stat, or two, if we're being honest. One of the few things that I like about PF2e is it's relegation of stat dumping to being an optional rule. My preference for an evolutionary PF1.5e would be a continuation of the current point buy system but without the ability to dump stats below 10 (8 for those ancestries with -2 stats). Then, there could be an optional rule to dump one stat and a ultra-optional rule to dump multiple stats.
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I would actually prefer a more MAD approach, overall, in this edition (5th Ed screwed Str, Int, and Cha), no score left behind!
I personally feel that you should suffer a deficiency in somehow for any low(er) stat. Something you can't just handwave.
This is a problem because, currently, you don't after this change.
Str - You can get the same attack bonus as str with dex. Damage is different, yes, but that matters less and less at higher levels, also only if you melee. Bulk is a non-issue once you get a bag of holding. One skill. An overall weak ability score.
Dex- AC, TAC, Reflex Save, multiple skills, ranged attack. One of the strongest ability scores.
Con - HP, Fort Save
Int - Trained Skills, potentially 1 language. A weaker ability.
Wis - Will Save, Initiative, many good skills, dumping wis is really bad. Tied with Dex for strongest ability score.
Cha - a couple skills, spell pool, overcharging magical items. Really sucks for Paladins and Sorcerers who use their spell pools/focus for their main powers. A weaker ability score.
Tier 1 ability scores:
Dex, Wis
Tier 2 ability scores:
Con, Int
Tier 3 ability scores:
Str, Cha
We need to pull Dex and Wis down a notch and bump Str and Cha up.
My suggestions:
1. Tie Will Save to Charisma
2. Make bulk harder to circumvent
3. Give Sorcs and Paladins more Sprll Points.
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HWalsh wrote: Str - You can get the same attack bonus as str with dex. Damage is different, yes, but that matters less and less at higher levels, also only if you melee. Bulk is a non-issue once you get a bag of holding. One skill. An overall weak ability score. Str-based weapons have higher damage dice. These bigger dice do scale with level and add up. This is especially true for casters, who rarely will incur MAP and as such don't benefit from agile. Strength is a very build-dependent score, but for those who want powerful melee damage it is very attractive. It's certainly in better shape than either Charisma or Intelligence.
HWalsh wrote: Int - Trained Skills, potentially 1 language. A weaker ability. Pretty close to useless, actually. Intelligence can only help you gain more trained skills, it can't raise them to higher proficiency. And there are so many ways to get trained skills that it is never worthwhile to invest in intelligence just for that reason. If you aren't an alchemist or wizard, and don't need it to meet prerequisites, there is no reason to raise intelligence above 10. Charisma at least has some powerful skills and a wide selection of classes to multiclass dip into; Intelligence has... basically just crafting. Intelligence is the worst ability score in the game, by a significant margin.
Dasrak wrote: HWalsh wrote: Str - You can get the same attack bonus as str with dex. Damage is different, yes, but that matters less and less at higher levels, also only if you melee. Bulk is a non-issue once you get a bag of holding. One skill. An overall weak ability score. Str-based weapons have higher damage dice. These bigger dice do scale with level and add up. This is especially true for casters, who rarely will incur MAP and as such don't benefit from agile. Strength is a very build-dependent score, but for those who want powerful melee damage it is very attractive. It's certainly in better shape than either Charisma or Intelligence.
HWalsh wrote: Int - Trained Skills, potentially 1 language. A weaker ability. Pretty close to useless, actually. Intelligence can only help you gain more trained skills, it can't raise them to higher proficiency. And there are so many ways to get trained skills that it is never worthwhile to invest in intelligence just for that reason. If you aren't an alchemist or wizard, and don't need it to meet prerequisites, there is no reason to raise intelligence above 10. Charisma at least has some powerful skills and a wide selection of classes to multiclass dip into; Intelligence has... basically just crafting. Intelligence is the worst ability score in the game, by a significant margin. I beg to disagree. The untrained skill penalty is -4.
"Anything that isn't legendary is terrible!" Isn't true.
In fact from trained to legendary there is only a +3.
From Untrained to Trained is +4.
That. Is. Huge.
That is the single biggest jump in the game.
HWalsh wrote: I beg to disagree. The untrained skill penalty is -4.
"Anything that isn't legendary is terrible!" Isn't true.
In fact from trained to legendary there is only a +3.
From Untrained to Trained is +4.
That. Is. Huge.
That is the single biggest jump in the game.
I'm not entirely sure I disagree entirely, however, the untrained penalty of -4 isn't necessarily comparable to the trained to legendary jump, due to the fact that the DCs tend to guarantee a certain base success rate based on level. Even discounting the imbalance with the DC math, respective of level, the -4 only ensures likely success in checks that are so easy as to be ignorable to most of the party. Meanwhile a success check based on trained, compared to the same check based on Legendary is more influential, simply because the checks that are viable for an untrained character are largely inconsequential, while the difference between legendary and trained will largely make themselves known on more consequential checks. Even ignoring the DC table, this will still have this effect, assuming DCs aren't so out of whack that most checks are either almost guaranteed, or unmakable by normal PCs.
Tholomyes wrote: HWalsh wrote: I beg to disagree. The untrained skill penalty is -4.
"Anything that isn't legendary is terrible!" Isn't true.
In fact from trained to legendary there is only a +3.
From Untrained to Trained is +4.
That. Is. Huge.
That is the single biggest jump in the game.
I'm not entirely sure I disagree entirely, however, the untrained penalty of -4 isn't necessarily comparable to the trained to legendary jump, due to the fact that the DCs tend to guarantee a certain base success rate based on level. Even discounting the imbalance with the DC math, respective of level, the -4 only ensures likely success in checks that are so easy as to be ignorable to most of the party. Meanwhile a success check based on trained, compared to the same check based on Legendary is more influential, simply because the checks that are viable for an untrained character are largely inconsequential, while the difference between legendary and trained will largely make themselves known on more consequential checks. Even ignoring the DC table, this will still have this effect, assuming DCs aren't so out of whack that most checks are either almost guaranteed, or unmakable by normal PCs. You're not making much sense...
If you're level 3 and the DC is 18...
If you have a +3 bonus in stat...
If you're untrained you need a 16.
If you're trained you need a 12.
If you're expert you need an 11.
That trained ain't bad.
If you're level 7 and the DC is 24...
If you have a +4 stat...
If you're untrained you need a 17.
If you're trained you need a 13.
If you're master you need an 11.
That trained still ain't bad.
Need I go on?
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HWalsh wrote: I beg to disagree. The untrained skill penalty is -4. That presumes that you even need to make that check; this is a party-based game, and someone who is only trained in a skill or lacks a very strong ability score to back it up (ability scores are just as big as proficiency) is going to be a secondary backup check at best.
Moreover, the baseline number of trained skills you get in PF2 is very generous given the compressed skill list. Every class offers at minimum 5, plus you get 2 more when you multiclass, plus you can snap up 2 more as a human ancestry feat (which is inordinately cheaper than a 4 point ability score investment), and with that you've already got more than half the skills in the game trained without even investing a single point in intelligence.
HWalsh wrote: I personally feel that you should suffer a deficiency in somehow for any low(er) stat. Something you can't just handwave.
This is a problem because, currently, you don't after this change.
Str - You can get the same attack bonus as str with dex. Damage is different, yes, but that matters less and less at higher levels, also only if you melee. Bulk is a non-issue once you get a bag of holding. One skill. An overall weak ability score.
Dex- AC, TAC, Reflex Save, multiple skills, ranged attack. One of the strongest ability scores.
Con - HP, Fort Save
Int - Trained Skills, potentially 1 language. A weaker ability.
Wis - Will Save, Initiative, many good skills, dumping wis is really bad. Tied with Dex for strongest ability score.
Cha - a couple skills, spell pool, overcharging magical items. Really sucks for Paladins and Sorcerers who use their spell pools/focus for their main powers. A weaker ability score.
Tier 1 ability scores:
Dex, Wis
Tier 2 ability scores:
Con, Int
Tier 3 ability scores:
Str, Cha
We need to pull Dex and Wis down a notch and bump Str and Cha up.
My suggestions:
1. Tie Will Save to Charisma
2. Make bulk harder to circumvent
3. Give Sorcs and Paladins more Sprll Points.
Cha is miles better than Int atm.
Int basically does nothing*. At least Cha gives Focus...
*since "more trained skills" is basically worthless due to trained skills being left in the dust. Only the 3 skills that you focus on and are 100% guaranteed you'd have regardless of your Int matter (can be used for hard checks).
shroudb wrote: HWalsh wrote: I personally feel that you should suffer a deficiency in somehow for any low(er) stat. Something you can't just handwave.
This is a problem because, currently, you don't after this change.
Str - You can get the same attack bonus as str with dex. Damage is different, yes, but that matters less and less at higher levels, also only if you melee. Bulk is a non-issue once you get a bag of holding. One skill. An overall weak ability score.
Dex- AC, TAC, Reflex Save, multiple skills, ranged attack. One of the strongest ability scores.
Con - HP, Fort Save
Int - Trained Skills, potentially 1 language. A weaker ability.
Wis - Will Save, Initiative, many good skills, dumping wis is really bad. Tied with Dex for strongest ability score.
Cha - a couple skills, spell pool, overcharging magical items. Really sucks for Paladins and Sorcerers who use their spell pools/focus for their main powers. A weaker ability score.
Tier 1 ability scores:
Dex, Wis
Tier 2 ability scores:
Con, Int
Tier 3 ability scores:
Str, Cha
We need to pull Dex and Wis down a notch and bump Str and Cha up.
My suggestions:
1. Tie Will Save to Charisma
2. Make bulk harder to circumvent
3. Give Sorcs and Paladins more Sprll Points.
Cha is miles better than Int atm.
Int basically does nothing*. At least Cha gives Focus...
*since "more trained skills" is basically worthless due to trained skills being left in the dust. Only the 3 skills that you focus on and are 100% guaranteed you'd have regardless of your Int matter (can be used for hard checks). Where are you getting this "trained skills being left in the dust" malarkey?
Sure, they're not the best but the difference between Trained and Legendary is THREE for crying out loud. The difference between Untrained and Legendary is SEVEN.
HWalsh wrote: shroudb wrote: HWalsh wrote: I personally feel that you should suffer a deficiency in somehow for any low(er) stat. Something you can't just handwave.
This is a problem because, currently, you don't after this change.
Str - You can get the same attack bonus as str with dex. Damage is different, yes, but that matters less and less at higher levels, also only if you melee. Bulk is a non-issue once you get a bag of holding. One skill. An overall weak ability score.
Dex- AC, TAC, Reflex Save, multiple skills, ranged attack. One of the strongest ability scores.
Con - HP, Fort Save
Int - Trained Skills, potentially 1 language. A weaker ability.
Wis - Will Save, Initiative, many good skills, dumping wis is really bad. Tied with Dex for strongest ability score.
Cha - a couple skills, spell pool, overcharging magical items. Really sucks for Paladins and Sorcerers who use their spell pools/focus for their main powers. A weaker ability score.
Tier 1 ability scores:
Dex, Wis
Tier 2 ability scores:
Con, Int
Tier 3 ability scores:
Str, Cha
We need to pull Dex and Wis down a notch and bump Str and Cha up.
My suggestions:
1. Tie Will Save to Charisma
2. Make bulk harder to circumvent
3. Give Sorcs and Paladins more Sprll Points.
Cha is miles better than Int atm.
Int basically does nothing*. At least Cha gives Focus...
*since "more trained skills" is basically worthless due to trained skills being left in the dust. Only the 3 skills that you focus on and are 100% guaranteed you'd have regardless of your Int matter (can be used for hard checks). Where are you getting this "trained skills being left in the dust" malarkey?
Sure, they're not the best but the difference between Trained and Legendary is THREE for crying out loud. The difference between Untrained and Legendary is SEVEN. On average every character will already have around 2-5 trained skills and 3 legendary with 10 Int (depending on dedication which most characters have)
In order to even use skills you need both +items, +stat, +prof.
You certainly cannot keep up +item bonus to skill for 12+ different skill, you certainly cannot keep up with +stat for 12+ different skill, and you certainly cannot keep up in proficiency for more than 3.
So, if you have a 60% chance of success for your main 3 skills which everyone has and 45% for the last 2-4 that everyone has.
That means that your "extra" skills are about -2 from lesser item bonus (some even less than that due to "item slots", you certainly can't have 11 items just for skills), and -2 from lesser ability.
That's around 10-25% of success for relevant (not easy) tasks. Hence not competitive.
Plus, all the "cool" skill usage is the same for all, since skill feats are not Int dependent.
On the other hand, +Cha is ALWAYS great, due to always having a use for Focus regardless of vuild/class/etc
If Int, gave also Skill Feats, or if it gave higher than trained (even if it was just up to expert) then it would be worth it. At least it would make your few "always trained" skills a bit better (expert) instead of loading you with a host of trained skills that's impossible to keep up with.
I have a nice idea how would i fix INT
Put INT mod into every skill check in addition, and for INT based skills you double the mod.
I mean, it makes sense, IQ helps with everything we do in real life, so why not in fantasy. Yeah, you need to be charismatic to persuade someone, but being smart in addition helps as well, and you can say this about any other skill, even things like athletics, have you ever heard a phrase that grappling is like a chess game
Its really easy and quick solution that makes INT a valuable stat, especially for skill monkeys, and makes INT a prime skill stat
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duje wrote: I have a nice idea how would i fix INT
Put INT mod into every skill check in addition, and for INT based skills you double the mod.
I mean, it makes sense, IQ helps with everything we do in real life, so why not in fantasy. Yeah, you need to be charismatic to persuade someone, but being smart in addition helps as well, and you can say this about any other skill, even things like athletics, have you ever heard a phrase that grappling is like a chess game
Its really easy and quick solution that makes INT a valuable stat, especially for skill monkeys, and makes INT a prime skill stat
Isn't that going to make an INT based class automatically the best at everything, since they will already have INT maxed out? They'll just need one other stat to be better at a given skill, but everyone else will need two. And for INT skills, that will be "either you're a Wizard or you don't roll this."
HWalsh wrote: Where are you getting this "trained skills being left in the dust" malarkey?
Sure, they're not the best but the difference between Trained and Legendary is THREE for crying out loud.
It's more than 3 points, because you can't keep all your ability scores maxed out. This is the number of skills for every ability score (not including lore and performance):
Str: 1
Dex: 3
Int: 4
Wis: 4
Cha: 3
Due to the way ability score generation and advancement works, you can only have three heavily invested ability scores at 1st level and four heavily invested scores at higher levels. If you're not investing in the key ability score of a skill, it's going to be a very weak and marginal skill for you. Importantly you can already be trained in the majority of skills that match your ability score aptitudes without any intelligence investment, and feats are a much cheaper way of making up the difference if you really feel you need to. Shroudb also mentions item bonuses, which is another factor adding to the hyper-specialization in PF2.
What you're really getting out of intelligence, skill-wise, is being able to use the Arcana, Occultism, Society, and Craft skills efficiently. And you know what, if you don't have a Wizard or Alchemist in the party that might be worth some consideration for one person in the party to pursue. However, if you do have an Intelligence-based character in the party, there's really no reason to bother with it.
Put another way, there are 15 useful skills in this game and each character in the party will typically be invested in 7-10 of them. In a four person party, that means you have 30-40 trained skills with which to cover 15 different skills. When looked at from the perspective of the party as a whole, it makes little sense to weaken yourself in other ways to add more trained skills.
This is not to say that more trained skills are useless, it's just nowhere near as valuable as what the other ability scores are doing.
Tridus wrote:
duje wrote: Put INT mod into every skill check in addition, and for INT based skills you double the mod. Isn't that going to make an INT based class automatically the best at everything, since they will already have INT maxed out?
Yeah, that would just make mean you'd need to choose between pumping Int or sucking at skills. There would be no in between.
duje wrote: I have a nice idea how would i fix INT
Put INT mod into every skill check in addition, and for INT based skills you double the mod.
I mean, it makes sense, IQ helps with everything we do in real life, so why not in fantasy. Yeah, you need to be charismatic to persuade someone, but being smart in addition helps as well, and you can say this about any other skill, even things like athletics, have you ever heard a phrase that grappling is like a chess game
Its really easy and quick solution that makes INT a valuable stat, especially for skill monkeys, and makes INT a prime skill stat
As much as I want Int to be buffed to useful, this sounds way overpowered.
shroudb wrote: duje wrote: I have a nice idea how would i fix INT
Put INT mod into every skill check in addition, and for INT based skills you double the mod.
I mean, it makes sense, IQ helps with everything we do in real life, so why not in fantasy. Yeah, you need to be charismatic to persuade someone, but being smart in addition helps as well, and you can say this about any other skill, even things like athletics, have you ever heard a phrase that grappling is like a chess game
Its really easy and quick solution that makes INT a valuable stat, especially for skill monkeys, and makes INT a prime skill stat
As much as I want Int to be buffed to useful, this sounds way overpowered. well INT is OP in real life, that is why humans dominate :D
Maybe if you lost extra trained skills for it, it would make it more balanced, trained skills are determined by your class and level progression.
It makes more sense too, training in skills requires time and dedication, not intelligence, however if you are genius you can pretty much wing it at any skill just by your own wits, and as i said before, no matter how charismatic person is, if he is dumb he is going to have hard time persuading anybody so having INT influence every skill is kinda realistic.
So INT mod to skills, while INT does not get you more trained skills, makes it more balanced and fixes INT
That would make classes like wizard more immersive, so he gets few skills like arcana, but he is really good at it, it makes sense because wizard dedicated his life to studying arcana to become a wizard in a first place, however, because he is smart, even tho he has not worked much in other skill, he is a friking genius that surely saw somebody do it before, so he wings it better than others
Other stats have modifiers as well, so if he is 8 STR he would get malus to athletics, and bonus from inteligence and malus if he is untrained as well, so it evens up
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Intelligence is today's dump stat. Almost no use unless you are an Int-based class. Charisma is somewhat of a dump stat, but with the new Focus not so much.
Actually, I feel Focus would do better on Int conceptually - the item-users are alchemists and wizards, not bards and sorcerers.
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Starfox wrote: Intelligence is today's dump stat. Almost no use unless you are an Int-based class. Charisma is somewhat of a dump stat, but with the new Focus not so much.
Actually, I feel Focus would do better on Int conceptually - the item-users are alchemists and wizards, not bards and sorcerers.
When people talk like that I get the feeling that the pendulum has swung completely the other way in favor of martials. Well, I guess in the end, they "won" for whatever it's worth.
In our games, NPC's react to low charisma characters with contempt, disdain, and general lack of respect.
Low strength characters have trouble lifting things, low dexterity characters are uncoordinated and clumsy, low constitution characters get sick and run out of breath, low intelligence characters are misinformed and slow on the uptake, and low wisdom characters are oblivious and miss a lot of details.
Low charisma has major consequences at our tables, but they are roleplayed, rather than rollplayed.
But that's just anecdote from the groups I run with, and only really meant to explain why I have trouble looking at charisma as a dump stat. I ain't saying how it be, just how I seen it.
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