Prestige classes, spells known, and bloodline spells


Rules Questions

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Quote:
Saying "you get what it says under spells, because it is under spells" amounts to mechanically the same thing, and saves having to type out a long explanation.

Yeah, CLEARLY that saves much typing when discussing the specifics of RAW.

How many people have been arguing that the RAW specifically justifies advancing the "Spells" Class feature, only now that's not their argument?
This is kind of a relevant distinction if you want to address what the RAW specifically allows, rather than reach your desired conclusion based on 'feeling'. Because such arguments for "Spells" class feature were then clearly NOT truly addressing the RAW, while their advocates were claiming that. Diego just berated me for "strawman" arguments, claiming that of course he was saying "Spells" Class Feature is advanced by RAW, not just the Table. Awfully confused for something that's supposedly dictated by RAW.

So your position is that "Spells" class feature is NOT advanced by the PrC, but only "Spells Known Table"? (without that being stated either)
Oracle Cure/Inflict spells advance themselves, but Spontaneous Caster 'relearning' adding new spells known in exchange for old ones isn't granted, as that is part of "Spells" class ability?

So where is "Table" specifically advanced, if "Spells" Class ability isn't?


2 people marked this as a favorite.

I should have quit reading this thread after I read the FAQ about the witch and Prestige class.

Shadow Lodge

GreenMandar wrote:
I should have quit reading this thread after I read the FAQ about the witch and Prestige class.

Did you at least hit the FAQ button here? Every little bit helps.

James Maissen:

james maissen wrote:

The wording of the ability does, indeed, do something. It does exactly what your better wording does as well. Perhaps it was clearer to the writer the other way, perhaps they didn't consider your phrasing, etc.

Your comment was that the phrase was superfluous, and it is not under either reading of the rules.

While I agree that there are many places where the rules could be made more explicit, I disagree that this case is one of those. This section very specifically had to be rewritten for Pathfinder, and I'm sure they spent a good deal of time looking at it during the beta period and since then.

The wording doesn't do exactly what mine does. Mine makes it do what you say it should be doing. What it is doing, very strictly RAW, should be clear. Blood of Dragons grants Bloodline Spells for Sorcerers of the Draconic Bloodline; ergo, they are not coming from a different source. It also has the potential for allowing early access to those spells for advancing Sorcerer casting, which is an additional effect.

I personally cannot recall seeing redundancy in class features. I can only bring to mind redundancy in an individual piece of rules information being stated in multiple places, near various areas where it is relevant, such as prestige classes not being permitted as favored classes being stated both in Ch 11: Prestige Classes, and in Ch 3: Classes under Favored Class.

[/james]

Quandary:

My personal feelings on whether or not Sorcerers are getting screwed is irrelevant in a RAW discussion.

I disagree with their original ruling on when TWF penalties apply, too, but I bow to their ruling in PFS, and I run it the way I think it should work at home. Likewise with the fact that Wizards don't get their two spells learned from leveling if they go prestige.

As far as the spontaneous caster vs. Wizards/Clerics, I do feel that Sorcerers may be getting the short end of the stick, but I think that's more a result of Clerics and Wizards getting more than they should as opposed to Sorcerers getting less.

Quandary wrote:

Either way what you believe about the balance of it, the straightforward reading of the PrC RAW still does not distinguish between class features.

Thus there's no reason why the PrCs shouldn't grant ALL spells known from the base class,
even though Sorceror's base class wording is written differently than Clerics/Spec Wizards.

Emphasis mine. The bolded portion is exactly why people on "my" side of the argument continue to bring up the FAQ ruling on the Witch. As with Sorcerer, they get Patron spells staggered at a level behind getting the actual spellcasting. But patron spells are an alternate class feature, not part of the normal spellcasting feature. The wording for Clerics and Wizards also wouldn't apply to them. Look at this piece of wording from the Witch class, emphasis mine:

Patron Spells wrote:
At 1st level, when a witch gains her familiar, she must also select a patron. This patron is a vague and mysterious force, granting the witch power for reasons that she might not entirely understand. While these forces need not be named, they typically hold inf luence over one of the following forces. At 2nd level, and every two levels thereafter, a witch’s patron adds new spells to a witch’s list of spells known. These spells are also automatically added to the list of spells stored by the familiar.

Now, given that wording, patron spells function the same (in essence) as a Sorcerer's bloodline spells. And under other circumstances, they would continue to gain those spells when they took a PrC. The only thing preventing them from gaining them is that they come from a class feature other than Spells. This is why that FAQ ruling has been cited so many times in arguing that Bloodline spells are not learned in PrC Sorcerers.

[/quandary]

Liberty's Edge

Quandary wrote:
Quote:
Saying "you get what it says under spells, because it is under spells" amounts to mechanically the same thing, and saves having to type out a long explanation.

Yeah, CLEARLY that saves much typing when discussing the specifics of RAW.

How many people have been arguing that the RAW specifically justifies advancing the "Spells" Class feature, only now that's not their argument?

I'm not saying if that's his argument or not. I'm simply saying what I think the rules are after having re-read oracle. Does +to spell casting advance what is listed under spells? I believe so. Is that the only reason cure spells are gained for an oracle? I don't believe so. My comment is based upon my reading of the RAW and does not represent Diego, or anybody else, I figured that the IMO would clue you in to that.

But while I have your attention, any comment on the 5 NPCs who don't advance their bloodline spells? I remember you being so eager about the one NPC who did. . .

GreenMandar wrote:
I should have quit reading this thread after I read the FAQ about the witch and Prestige class.

I know, right. Its kind of like a bad wreck though where you just want to watch. . . Do hit the FAQ button though, if you would be so kind. It would be much appreciated.


I did, only to hopefully put this to rest.


jlighter wrote:

It also has the potential for allowing early access to those spells for advancing Sorcerer casting, which is an additional effect.

Could you show a case where it does NOT grant it early?

I'm sorry, it's not the smoking gun that you want.

Meanwhile, have you read the arcane trickster advancing of casting?

You would agree that a sorcerer would get fly as a spell known when they level to 7th, right?

And that the arcane trickster says that they would get spells known as if they had also leveled as a sorcerer, right?

-James

Liberty's Edge

That's Green. Happy Gaming. :)

Shadow Lodge

james maissen wrote:
jlighter wrote:

It also has the potential for allowing early access to those spells for advancing Sorcerer casting, which is an additional effect.

Could you show a case where it does NOT grant it early?

Which does not conclusively indicate that that is the ability's primary or only purpose. It merely indicates that it is one effect among several granted by the ability. This argument doesn't in any way negate the sentences that came before the one you quoted.

james maissen wrote:
I'm sorry, it's not the smoking gun that you want.

Never said that sentence was. My smoking gun is the part in Blood of Dragons where it specifically calls out that it grants bonus (i.e. bloodline) spells.

james maissen wrote:

Meanwhile, have you read the arcane trickster advancing of casting?

You would agree that a sorcerer would get fly as a spell known when they level to 7th, right?

And that the arcane trickster says that they would get spells known as if they had also leveled as a sorcerer, right?

-James

As I believe I indicated up-thread, I have read the wording in AT, as well as in all the other PrCs.

I agree that a Draconic bloodline Sorcerer would get Fly as a bonus spell upon advancing to Sorcerer 7.

And while I cannot argue with what the wording of the Spells per Day ability of AT very strictly says, I can and do argue with your interpretation of those words. My interpretation is that the Spells per Day ability grants the listed increases to the character's regular spellcasting capability, which would include regular spells known (those referred to in the relevant Spells Known tables) on a Bard, Sorcerer, or Summoner. Anything else that comes from leveling as a Sorcerer, including Bloodlines and all subsidiary boons, fall under the heading of "other benefits" and are not granted.

At this point, I don't think further conversation is going to accomplish anything. The foundation of our disagreement stems from our answers to the following question:

Is a bloodline spell counted as a Spell Known or a Bloodline Ability for purposes of the Spell Per Day wording of any and all Prestige Classes?

You say a Spell Known. I say a Bloodline Ability.

Until and unless one of us capitulates to the other or a Dev declares for one camp or the other specifically and in writing on these boards, we'll end up rehashing the same arguments until judgement day and never get anywhere.

I motion that we table our discussion until one of us has an argument to present that has not already been presented. Until then, we're only going to be arguing if it's pronounced potato or potato.

Liberty's Edge

1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.
jlighter wrote:
You say a Spell Known. I say a Bloodline Ability.

5 out of 6 NPCs agree, class ability.

/sigh. I could totally have nailed it in advertising. . .

Shadow Lodge

ShadowcatX wrote:
jlighter wrote:
You say a Spell Known. I say a Bloodline Ability.

5 out of 6 NPCs agree, bloodline ability.

/sigh. I could totally have nailed it in advertising. . .

It's never too late, Herr ShadowcatX. You, too, could be the next big thing.


I would really like to see designer input\FAQ on this - although my fear is that with the question written specifically, we might get a narrow answer that will leave other areas (domains, mystery spells, etc.) unclear (I think that's unlikely but still a possibility...).


jlighter wrote:
I agree that a Draconic bloodline Sorcerer would get Fly as a bonus spell upon advancing to Sorcerer 7.

What does 'bonus spell' mean?

jlighter wrote:
You say a Spell Known. I say a Bloodline Ability.

So you do not believe that bloodline spells are spells known?

The next conclusion is that the sorcerer cannot use spell slots to cast those spells that are not spells known.

jlighter wrote:
Anything else that comes from leveling as a Sorcerer, including Bloodlines and all subsidiary boons, fall under the heading of "other benefits" and are not granted.

I agree except for spells per day, spells known, and increased spell casting level.

It does not matter where the spell known comes from in leveling as a sorcerer, just that it would happen if you also leveled as a sorcerer. Those are the words.

-James


1 person marked this as a favorite.

The RAW reading most people are making is this:

Bloodline bonus spells are not granted until the bloodline itself advances to the appropriate level.

This means that a sorcerer 6/prestige class 10 would only have the first two bloodline spells added to their list of spells known.

Now in my own game where I can declare what parts of RAW I like and which I don't, I can and probably would overrule that. Just like I (and the other GM's in my group) have ruled that spring attack and vital strike work together. But what we think should be really doesn't have any place in a RAW discussion.

Shadow Lodge

james maissen wrote:
What does 'bonus spell' mean?

Bonus spell being a spell being granted from any source other than the Spells section of the relevant class. Includes bloodline spells, domain spells, patron spells, and spell slots gained from having a high ability score.

james maissen wrote:
jlighter wrote:
You say a Spell Known. I say a Bloodline Ability.

So you do not believe that bloodline spells are spells known?

The next conclusion is that the sorcerer cannot use spell slots to cast those spells that are not spells known.

The two are, strictly speaking, not mutually exclusive. But, order of operations matters. I say a Bloodline Spell is not learned until it has been granted by the bloodline. Until it is learned, it is no more a spell known than any spell the Sorcerer has not chosen to learn.

When are these spells learned? Here's a hint. It has nothing to do with spellcasting ability. They are learned at odd-numbered Sorcerer levels after level 1. What causes them to be learned? Again, it has nothing to do with innate spellcasting ability. Bloodline spells are learned from the bloodline. If you do not advance the bloodline, you do not advance any of its subsidiary powers, as they are all dependent upon advancing the bloodline first.

As for whether or not it can be cast using Sorcerer spells, strawman argument. Nobody has argued whether or not a bloodline spell can be cast using a Sorcerer spell slot.

james maissen wrote:
jlighter wrote:
Anything else that comes from leveling as a Sorcerer, including Bloodlines and all subsidiary boons, fall under the heading of "other benefits" and are not granted.

I agree except for spells per day, spells known, and increased spell casting level.

It does not matter where the spell known comes from in leveling as a sorcerer, just that it would happen if you also leveled as a sorcerer. Those are the words.

And here is where the fundamental disagreement is coming from. We see order of operations differently.

You see: it ends up being a spell known, thus it is advanced
I see: it comes from an "other benefit" class ability, and isn't a spell known until that ability is advanced
You see: "these spells are in addition to the number of spells given on table 3-15."
I see: "a sorcerer learns an additional spell, derived from her bloodline."

I disagree with your interpretation. As with the Witch and her patron spells, it does matter the source of the spell. The wording of the ability does not give any indication either way if it does or does not matter, so I default to the precedent of the Witch FAQ and the Blood of Dragons ability.

As a note: of your three exceptions, two specifically reference things governed by tables. Emphasis mine:

Sorcerer Spells wrote:
Like other spellcasters, a sorcerer can cast only a certain number of spells of each spell level per day. Her base daily spell allotment is given on Table 3–14. In addition, she receives bonus spells per day if she has a high Charisma score(see Table 1–3).
Sorcerer Spells wrote:
A sorcerer’s selection of spells is extremely limited. A sorcerer begins play knowing four 0-level spells and two 1st-level spells of her choice. At each new sorcerer level, she gains one or more new spells, as indicated on Table 3–15. (Unlike spells per day, the number of spells a sorcerer knows is not affected by her Charisma score; the numbers on Table 3–15 are fixed.)

In the Sorcerer class, the only places where the term "Spells Known" is used are in the Spells ability and in the immediately linked table, Sorcerer Spells Known. Both Spells Per Day, and Spells Known, strictly reference tables in their abilities.

As for increased effective level of spellcasting? Technically, you could say it's also referencing a table. The class table. The reference to the table being, "here's what level your Sorcerer is, so they have the abilities on this line and above, except that in the Spells Per Day section, they go up down line."

We all agree that analogy, figurative speech, and other colorful modes of speech are legitimate tools to demonstrate intention in a conversation, I'm sure. My apologies if my use of such speech modes at times has been unclear or has caused confusion.

I renew my motion to cease discussion until new arguments exist.

-jlighter

Liberty's Edge

We're at 35 FAQ clicks, hopefully they'll do an FAQ tomorrow and take care of this.


jlighter wrote:
And here is where the fundamental disagreement is coming from. We see order of operations differently.

Correct.

And from reading the Arcane Trickster I don't see any order of operations to be implied or said. Simply you see what would happen if the character had also leveled as a sorcerer. Period. Full stop.

You see everything that they would have gained from doing this (hps, skills, saves, spells per day, spells known, etc). You keep the new spells per day. You keep the new spells known. You keep the new caster level. You don't keep anything else.

You are throwing away too much as you are not keeping some of the new spells known.

What class features these may or may not fall under are not addressed whatsoever and do not matter.

-James
PS: In the case of the witch, who is not a spontaneous caster.. the only things kept are increased spells per day and increased caster level. The question addressed something in a section that would do nothing to either, so that something would not advance. Again simple.

Liberty's Edge

james maissen wrote:
In the case of the witch, who is not a spontaneous caster.. the only things kept are increased spells per day and increased caster level. The question addressed something in a section that would do nothing to either, so that something would not advance. Again simple.

Had your answer been given in the FAQ you would be right. However, the FAQ states that the reason the witch does not gain patron spells isn't because of your reasoning, it says that it is because patron spells are from a class ability. Ergo class abilities, even those which grant spells known, do not advance.

5 out of 6 NPCs agree.


ShadowcatX wrote:
Had your answer been given in the FAQ you would be right.

Will you stand by that assessment, or is it merely spurious?

-James

Shadow Lodge

James, what you say is an order of operations. Your order is to level as in Sorcerer, then prune back. Mine is to prune class features, then level what is left. I can get my results with both methods, but I can only get your results with one. Doesn't speak to which is accurate, but we'll see what we see if/when a Dev weighs in. We've passed the threshold to make the waiting list, so in theory they will weigh in at some point.

Also, second ShadowcatX's point. The reason why it doesn't work matters. I would have latched onto the fact that a Witch was not a spontaneous caster myself, but the ruling calls out that they are not gained by virtue of being an alternate class feature. Witch adds another twist, because it is the only prepared caster I know of that uses the phrase "spells known", as opposed to others who only use the "may know any number of spells" wording. The witch uses both, but the fact that it uses "spells known" is odd for a prepared caster.


james maissen wrote:
ShadowcatX wrote:
Had your answer been given in the FAQ you would be right.

Will you stand by that assessment, or is it merely spurious?

-James

FAQ wrote:

Witch: If I take levels in a prestige class that advances my spellcasting, do I continue to gain bonus spells from my patron as I gain levels?

No. That is a class feature of the witch class, and the standard "+1 level of spellcasting" prestige class ability only advances spells known, spells per day, effective spellcaster level. (You retain the patron spells from your familiar based on your actual witch level, of course.)

I think he's referring to a standing FAQ. Patron spells do not advance.


jlighter wrote:
James, what you say is an order of operations. Your order is to level as in Sorcerer, then prune back. Mine is to prune class features, then level what is left.

Do you get all the features that you are to advance as if you had also leveled as a sorcerer? No, you do not.

That's the problem.

It's not a question of order, but of results.

-James

Shadow Lodge

james maissen wrote:
jlighter wrote:
James, what you say is an order of operations. Your order is to level as in Sorcerer, then prune back. Mine is to prune class features, then level what is left.

Do you get all the features that you are to advance as if you had also leveled as a sorcerer? No, you do not.

That's the problem.

It's not a question of order, but of results.

-James

Very strictly depends on what features you are supposed to get. If you're interpretation of that is correct, then your statement is accurate. If my side is, then you're wrong.


jlighter wrote:
Very strictly depends on what features you are supposed to get. If you're interpretation of that is correct, then your statement is accurate. If my side is, then you're wrong.

I agree with this statement.

Now let us look at the wording of the arcane trickster yet again.

There is nothing suggesting that you would not get some spells known as a spontaneous caster. It is part of the exception, and unlike English spelling (i before e except when it's not) there isn't an exception to the exception.

-James

Liberty's Edge

It is amazing at how often someone can say the same thing over and over without looking at any of the evidence to the contrary.


ShadowcatX wrote:
It is amazing at how often someone can say the same thing over and over without looking at any of the evidence to the contrary.

Indeed.

At this point I have no idea what else I can possibly say, so I am just waiting for the FAQ to prove us right. I mean, we have used simpler analogies, standing FAQ's, and even cold hard evidence from Paizo's own product, and they still want to argue the point. I am just following the thread hoping for a FAQ at this point.


ShadowcatX wrote:
It is amazing at how often someone can say the same thing over and over without looking at any of the evidence to the contrary.

yup, though his repeated mention of the arcane trickster makes me think, is there any published Arcane trickster build that grants bloodline spells? I don't have the NPC codex yet.


My opinion (to state it again) is that this is really simple and can be answered by asking two questions:

1. Is the spell granted by the Spells (Spells Known\Spells per Day) section of the class description? If yes, then it is advanced by Mystic Theurge\Arcane Trickster\other PrCs that state they advance spellcasting ability. If no, see item 2.

2. Do any of the other class features indicate that they grant spells independent of that class feature advancing through additional levels in the class that granted it? If yes, then it is advanced by Mystic Theurge\Arcane Trickster\other PrCs that state they advance spellcasting ability. If no, no additional spells are gained.

Silver Crusade

+5 Toaster wrote:
ShadowcatX wrote:
It is amazing at how often someone can say the same thing over and over without looking at any of the evidence to the contrary.
yup, though his repeated mention of the arcane trickster makes me think, is there any published Arcane trickster build that grants bloodline spells? I don't have the NPC codex yet.

Have at it.


Joe M. wrote:
+5 Toaster wrote:
ShadowcatX wrote:
It is amazing at how often someone can say the same thing over and over without looking at any of the evidence to the contrary.
yup, though his repeated mention of the arcane trickster makes me think, is there any published Arcane trickster build that grants bloodline spells? I don't have the NPC codex yet.
Have at it.

he selected his bloodline spells through normal spells known progression with his arcane trickster levels. no additional spells known from the bloodline. I guess that makes the Arcane Trickster a bad example for james. so now i would call it 6 out of 7 npc's agreeing. next I am going to look at the mystic theurge. Thanks Joe.


the 2 arcane archers that progress sorcerer spells known didn't get bloodline spells

this also goes for the 1 sorcerer mystic theurge. That's 9 out of 10 npcs folks. that's a better sounding statistic.

Silver Crusade

+5 Toaster wrote:

the 2 arcane archers that progress sorcerer spells known didn't get bloodline spells

this also goes for the 1 sorcerer mystic theurge. That's 9 out of 10 npcs folks. that's a better sounding statistic.

In the interest of a complete set of evidence, the Eldritch Knight builds are conflicted.

The "Champion of Magic" build appears to have received the one bloodline spell for which it would be possible through prestige class advancement (dimension door).

The "Spirit Avenger" build appears to have received one bloodline spell (magic circle against evil) but not two others (remove curse, flame strike).

Someone double-check me on that; it was a pretty quick look-over.

Liberty's Edge

Joe M. wrote:

In the interest of a complete set of evidence, the Eldritch Knight builds are conflicted.

The "Champion of Magic" build appears to have received the one bloodline spell for which it would be possible through prestige class advancement (dimension door).

The "Spirit Avenger" build appears to have received one bloodline spell (magic circle against evil) but not two others (remove curse, flame strike).

Someone double-check me on that; it was a pretty quick look-over.

That is correct. Now I'm even more curious.

I wonder why I didn't see them, I thought I checked out every sorcerer prestige character in the NPC codex. . .

Edit: Esmerelda Darkshadow (the original case that the pro-gaining bloodline side used) is the Champion of Magic. The spirit avenger was the first case I used against them. (Obviously I over looked his gaining his 3rd level bloodline spell so that is my mistake.) I've looked back through and I'm not seeing any other mistakes, for what that is worth.

+5 Toaster wrote:

the 2 arcane archers that progress sorcerer spells known didn't get bloodline spells

this also goes for the 1 sorcerer mystic theurge. That's 9 out of 10 npcs folks. that's a better sounding statistic.

I counted arcane archers and the mystic theurge in the 5 out of 6 count btw. The count is now updated to 4 out of 6 NPCs agree that bloodline spells do not advance, 1 is confused, and 1 says that they do.

Sounds about like real life. . .

Silver Crusade

[Edit: I misread your reply and fired off an incorrect suggestion. Now I can't figure out how to delete this post.]

Silver Crusade

I think we may be waiting for a while for an answer to this FAQ because of the number of changes that was caused by the initial "SLAs count as spellcasting" ruling that was made.

A lot of stuff has changed about at least 4 prestige classes (AA, AT, MT, and EK) that it's entirely possible they may have to completely rewrite them to avoid having to answer a new FAQ about them every day.


+5 Toaster wrote:
he selected his bloodline spells through normal spells known progression with his arcane trickster levels. no additional spells known from the bloodline. I guess that makes the Arcane Trickster a bad example for james. so now i would call it 6 out of 7 npc's agreeing. next I am going to look at the mystic theurge. Thanks Joe.
ShadowcatX wrote:
However I'd point out that NPCs are notoriously bad at following the rules, so let's see if she is just a mistake or if she's the rule.

As for the arcane trickster being an example.. I simply picked it as the first core PrC that fully advanced spellcasting.

The wording of the ability does not distinguish class features, only certain elements that it specifies that advance.. this includes spells known. Not the spells known table, but all spells known. Period.

I was not the person to reference the printed NPCs, and don't even own that book/.pdf even. I will agree with Shadowcat that an NPC one way or the other (or both) doesn't prove either side anymore than a PC stat program would.

What does it is the simple wording of the prestige class. You advance as if you had also gained a level in sorcerer. You see how your casting level would change, how your spells per day would change, and how your spells known would change. You get all of these.

It never lists or breaks down by class feature. Just lists those three things (assuming a spontaneous caster).

-James

Liberty's Edge

Just bumping in case they do FAQ's today. . .


Yes, it does. Spells Known is a completely different thing than Bloodline Spells.
If you say that Bloodline Spells are Spells Known, why wouldn't they be under Spells in the class?
PrCs that grant "+1 caster level" do only that. Add a caster level.
It specifically states that spontaneous casters get new Spells Known.
Bloodline Spells are NOT Spells Known.
Or they would have put "x+1" at the levels you get them on Spells Known, like a cleric.
PrCs DO grant clerics domain slots, because (and only because) they are on the Spells per Day table. That is the only reason.
If Bloodline Spells advance, then Bloodline Powers do too. But, in the Dragon Disciple entry, it has a complete class feature devoted to letting us know that the Bloodline advances as normal for sorcerors. If this is true, and it is, why don't they other PrCs have this feature?
BECAUSE BLOODLINES DON'T ADVANCE WITH PrCs, OTHER THAN DRAGON DISCIPLE.
And that's only the Draconic Bloodline. Not any others.
Sorcerors advance Spells Known, and Wizards get Spells per Day. That's it.

It sounds to me like james maissen has a Sorceror/PrC and wants him to be even more powerful than he is meant to be.


bigrig107 wrote:

It specifically states that spontaneous casters get new Spells Known.

Bloodline Spells are NOT Spells Known.

If they were, indeed, spells known.. then you admit that they would be gained? Correct?

bigrig107 wrote:

It sounds to me like james maissen has a Sorceror/PrC and wants him to be even more powerful than he is meant to be.

Nope, just want to follow the rules as they are actually written as opposed to how they are read by some.

-James


Yes, if they were on the table of Spells Know, and not under the class abilities section, with bloodline feats, powers, etc. they would be gained.

However, they are not, and are not gained through any PrC (except DD).
Is there a reason you find how this logic is wrong?

They're class abilities->Class abilities are not advanced->Bloodline Spells are not gained.

Or else no one would ever be pure sorceror. EVER. The same goes for quite a few classes.

Liberty's Edge

james maissen wrote:

Nope, just want to follow the rules as they are read by some rather than how they are written.

-James

Fixed that for you James. :)

And if you even think that is offensive remember, it is the same thing you said about us. Turn about is fair play.

C'mon FAQ. . . . .


bigrig107 wrote:

Yes, if they were on the table of Spells Know, and not under the class abilities section, with bloodline feats, powers, etc. they would be gained.

However, they are not, and are not gained through any PrC (except DD).
Is there a reason you find how this logic is wrong?

They're class abilities->Class abilities are not advanced->Bloodline Spells are not gained.

Or else no one would ever be pure sorceror. EVER. The same goes for quite a few classes.

Are there not spells known that can be gained that are NOT on the table?

Where does the +1 spellcasting mention any table or class ability?

It merely says spells known without either reference.

So for example, the arcane bloodline grants some spells known at certain levels. These are expressly spells known, and thus are granted by advancing a PrC.

-James

Liberty's Edge

Seems we missed the faq again.


Yup

Shadow Lodge

James, here's part of our point:

Are they (bloodline spells) spells known before they are granted? No, they aren't.

Are the Spells Known on the table Spells Known before you earn them? Yes, they are. They're specifically called out as such.

Bloodline spells, before they are granted, are merely a concept that will become spells known at some future point when the bloodline is advanced sufficiently to grant them. They are not expressly spells known, because if you read the Bloodlines, the phrase "Spells Known," or even the word "Known" is never used.

ShadowcatX, how are you able to tell that we "missed" the FAQ?


@James - since the Rage Prophet advances Oracle, as well as having its own mystery for bonus spells, is it your opinion that a Rage Prophet effectively has 2 mysteries as sources of bonus spells and gets both of them simultaneously?

I'd think it would have to be based on your thoughts elsewhere, and I think it's a stretch to think that a 3/4 spellcasting prestige class advancement is going to end up with just as many bonus spells as staying pure Oracle.


jlighter wrote:
ShadowcatX, how are you able to tell that we "missed" the FAQ?

PDT was online Thursday and Friday tossing out answers to FAQs - mostly on 'golden oldies' posts from back in 2011. I don't think it's a rule, but at least recently we've seen a bunch of FAQs answered right before the weekend, so the assumption was that if you haven't seen it by 3pm on Friday it's probably not gonna get answered this week.

Although I'm repeating myself now: My primary thought on why bloodline spells aren't granted is because unlike domains, the feature is phrased such that the spells are granted as the bloodline advances - and the bloodline never advances because it does so solely through gains in Sorcerer class levels.

Shadow Lodge

Bump.


MyTThor wrote:

@James - since the Rage Prophet advances Oracle, as well as having its own mystery for bonus spells, is it your opinion that a Rage Prophet effectively has 2 mysteries as sources of bonus spells and gets both of them simultaneously?

I'd think it would have to be based on your thoughts elsewhere, and I think it's a stretch to think that a 3/4 spellcasting prestige class advancement is going to end up with just as many bonus spells as staying pure Oracle.

You look at the wording of the ability and do what it says.

In the case of the Rage Prophet:

Quote:
At the indicated levels, a rage prophet gains new spells per day as if he had also gained a level in a divine spellcasting class he belonged to before adding the prestige class. He does not, however, gain other benefits a character of that class would have gained, except for additional spells per day, spells known (if he is a spontaneous caster), and an increased effective level of spellcasting.

So you pretend to also level the character as an Oracle.

You only keep 3 things from this process:

1. Spells per day
2. Spells known.
3. Increased effective level of spellcasting.

Now, if the character had leveled as an Oracle, then they would be gaining those mystery spells (and possibly curse spells) as spells known.

By the wording of the PrC ability, it seems clear that they would get them.

It is not a partial process that asks you to advance a specific class feature.

There is not an order involved.

It is simply telling you to also level as the advancing spellcasting class, but only keep from that a few things.

One of those things is any new spells known. Bloodline spells, mystery spells, and (for some curses) extra spells known all either 'are' spells known or 'become' spells known in the leveling process.

Thus these are kept.

That's the RAW.

Opinions will differ on what was intended. Certainly when this wording was first conceived spells known were only obtained one way and Oracles did not even exist. However, as you can see from the Rage Prophet PrC, the wording was not changed as a result.

-James


james maissen wrote:
Now, if the character had leveled as an Oracle, then they would be gaining those mystery spells (and possibly curse spells) as spells known.

You're absolutely correct on that part: They would - because they are advancing their Mystery by advancing their class. It is the advancement of the class feature that grants those spells.

Does the PrC state that it advances class features such as Mystery?

No.

Therefore they don't gain the spells known from their Mystery because that class feature does not advance as part of leveling in the PrC.

That's the RAW. And it matches perfectly with the stated intent from the various FAQs that have been released.

You are decoupling the spells from the class feature that grants them (Oracle Mystery) and then re-associating them in with a completely different class feature (Spells Known) in order to gain them - with no basis for doing so in RAW.

In order to gain spells granted by a class feature, the class feature that grants them must advance; it doesn't advance with the PrC, therefore those spells aren't learned.


(This point has been mentioned up in the thread but I'll repost it)

james maissen wrote:
(and possibly curse spells) as spells known
"Oracle Spells wrote:
In addition to the spells gained by oracles as they gain levels, each oracle also adds all of either the cure spells or the inflict spells to her list of spells known (cure spells include all spells with “cure” in the name, inflict spells include all spells with “inflict” in the name). These spells are added as soon as the oracle is capable of casting them.

They get Cures/Inflicts because the PrC adds to spells per day.

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