Prestige classes, spells known, and bloodline spells


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^This, and...

Jeez. I'd never even thought this was a question, and neither had any of the rules-lawyer madmen that is my local gaming group. We'd all been pretty sure that the bloodline spells only come with the bloodline, which is, obviously, a class feature that doesn't come with prestige classes, unless they get all fancy with it like Dragon Disciple. If nothing else, the fact that Dragon Disciple specifically grants them their bonus spells special says to me that it's definitely not ordinarily the case.

I'll grant you that with a certain view of the text, the RAW could be slightly unclear, but I've gotta say, the intent is nodded to in enough places I don't even think this should be FAQ'ed - just seems like wasting the staff's precious time to me.


I love how people claim "we" agree when it is pretty obvious that there isn't any agreement at all.

Liberty's Edge

Grey Lensman wrote:
I love how people claim "we" agree when it is pretty obvious that there isn't any agreement at all.

I'm pretty sure that the we in Viscount's post meant his local gaming group.

That said, I was sure everyone agreed on how this worked until Quandry spoke up, and then people started agreeing with him.


ShadowcatX wrote:
No, but bloodline spells did exist when Paizo printed that text. You think they couldn't have said "spells from class features" in there if they'd wanted it? Or they couldn't have worded bloodline spells to make them a part of spells known rather than a class ability, because +1 to spell casting obviously did exist when bloodline spells were being created?

I personally think that it was copied over without noticing anything needed to be changed. Many of the PrCs did not get the level of attention that the base classes did.

Do you contend that bloodline spells gained are not known spells for the sorcerer? If so, then they would not be able to cast them!

The bloodline spells are spells known in addition to the table. Likewise the cure spells (or inflict spells) for an oracle are spells known, yet while they even appear in the Spells section they do not make the table.

The table is not the entirety of spells known.

If your contention is correct and that Paizo considered bloodline spells when electing not to change the wording for PrCs, then they consciously elected to have them gain the bloodline spells.

They did not change the wording to 'the spells known TABLE' (or chart), but left it at a now wider category that currently includes bloodline spells, mystery spells, and either cure/inflict spells depending upon class.

-James

Liberty's Edge

james maissen wrote:
ShadowcatX wrote:
No, but bloodline spells did exist when Paizo printed that text. You think they couldn't have said "spells from class features" in there if they'd wanted it? Or they couldn't have worded bloodline spells to make them a part of spells known rather than a class ability, because +1 to spell casting obviously did exist when bloodline spells were being created?
I personally think that it was copied over without noticing anything needed to be changed. Many of the PrCs did not get the level of attention that the base classes did.

Interesting, do you have proof of that assertion?

Quote:

Do you contend that bloodline spells gained are not known spells for the sorcerer? If so, then they would not be able to cast them!

The bloodline spells are spells known in addition to the table. Likewise the cure spells (or inflict spells) for an oracle are spells known, yet while they even appear in the Spells section they do not make the table.

The table is not the entirety of spells known.

If your contention is correct and that Paizo considered bloodline spells when electing not to change the wording for PrCs, then they consciously elected to have them gain the bloodline spells.

They did not change the wording to 'the spells known TABLE' (or chart), but left it at a now wider category that currently includes bloodline spells, mystery spells, and either cure/inflict spells depending upon class.

-James

Do you have any proof for your side other than your interpretation of that, because we're reading the same thing and getting different answers.

As for my side of the debate, we've shown the FAQ which says specifically that class abilities, including those that grant spells, do not advance, that 5 out of the 6 npcs do not gain their bloodline spells, that the cure spells are called out explicitly in the text under spells and have significantly different wording from bloodline or mystery spells, and that there is a specifically an ability in a prestige class which calls out that it does advance bloodline spells.

Also, cure/inflict spells do not depend on class, they depend on alignment and choice (if neutral).

Liberty's Edge

I have some questions for Quandry, James, et al.

1) I'm a human arcane sorcerer who prestiged out of sorcerer. Do I get the favored class option that adds spells known?

2) Same as above, do I get the blood line feature at 9th level that grants me additional spells known?

3) I'm a haunted oracle who prestiged out. Do I get the +1 level for spells known to learn the spells my curse would give me?

3a) If yes, does that stack with the +1/2 level my curse normally progresses at, enabling me to gain those spells faster than if I was a straight oracle?


ShadowcatX wrote:
Do you have any proof for your side other than your interpretation of that, because we're reading the same thing and getting different answers.

Do you deny that bloodline spells (and mystery spells, and the 'free' either cure/inflict spells) are not spells known?

Is there ever *any* reference to the 'table' rather than simply spells known?

As to the FAQ, I'm sorry.. where does it deal with the specific exception to what advances?

As to the cure/inflict spells.. you miss my point. You wish to make some strange claim that the table of spells known somehow is definitive for spells known. It is expressly not.

Now it was when the wording of the PrCs' +1 spellcasting class was originally written... so perhaps your reading is the proper 'intent', but just as you have issue with the wording not being changed to reflect that.. so would I.

-James
PS: Proof of what assertion? That PrCs did not get the level of attention that the base classes did? Merely look and compare them. Or were you asking for proof of my thoughts?

Liberty's Edge

james maissen wrote:
ShadowcatX wrote:
Do you have any proof for your side other than your interpretation of that, because we're reading the same thing and getting different answers.
Do you deny that bloodline spells (and mystery spells, and the 'free' either cure/inflict spells) are not spells known?

First, yes, I do. I've said that already. Bloodline Spells is an portion of a class ability that is based around the sorcerer class level.

Quote:
As to the FAQ, I'm sorry.. where does it deal with the specific exception to what advances?

It specifically states that a witch would not gain their patron spells because patron spells are a class feature.

Quote:
As to the cure/inflict spells.. you miss my point. You wish to make some strange claim that the table of spells known somehow is definitive for spells known. It is expressly not.

You're the one who keeps bringing up the table.

Quote:

Now it was when the wording of the PrCs' +1 spellcasting class was originally written... so perhaps your reading is the proper 'intent', but just as you have issue with the wording not being changed to reflect that.. so would I.

-James
PS: Proof of what assertion? That PrCs did not get the level of attention that the base classes did? Merely look and compare them. Or were you asking for proof of my thoughts?

So it is your opinion that they did not receive the same level of attention, you don't have any actual proof of that.

Now I've answered your questions, if you would be so kind, answer the 3.5 in the post I put above yours. I'll quote them here for you.

Quote:

1) I'm a human arcane sorcerer who prestiged out of sorcerer. Do I get the favored class option that adds spells known?

2) Same as above, do I get the blood line feature at 9th level that grants me additional spells known?

3) I'm a haunted oracle who prestiged out. Do I get the +1 level for spells known to learn the spells my curse would give me?

3a) If yes, does that stack with the +1/2 level my curse normally progresses at, enabling me to gain those spells faster than if I was a straight oracle?

Shadow Lodge

Just for the sake of the discussion, the way to see if the PrC text received a similar amount of "attention" as the base classes would be to see how much the wording was changed in PrCs as opposed to the frequency of base class text-change. If the text in the various PrCs shows less text-change where it appears necessary than the base classes did, then it can be postulated that they received less attention than did the base classes. That said, not my point to prove, so that work is on others.


ShadowcatX wrote:
So it is your opinion that they did not receive the same level of attention, you don't have any actual proof of that.

You mean when I said:

Quote:


I personally think that it was...

You were confused as to whether or not I was saying that I had proof of such and was stating fact rather than opinion? Really?

ShadowcatX wrote:
james maissen wrote:
As to the FAQ, I'm sorry.. where does it deal with the specific exception to what advances?
It specifically states that a witch would not gain their patron spells because patron spells are a class feature.

Are witches now spontaneous casters? No.

Then witches gain new spells per day, and there is no exception for them as patron spells are not an exception.

What is an exception you might ask? Spells known. We'll go over this again in a subsequent post where I'll go through your list of questions that are also confusing you.

I'll go and answer your questions right after I have this last question clarified to make sure I have this right:

You don't believe that bloodline spells are spells known, and as a consequence you believe that sorcerers cannot cast their bloodline spells. Is this correct?

For reference on bloodline spells:

Quote:
a sorcerer learns an additional spell, derived from her bloodline. These spells are in addition to the number of spells given on Table: Sorcerer Spells Known.

From there we can go through your questions using the wording say from Arcane Trickster on +1 spellcasting class? Would that be acceptable?

-James


For reference on bloodline spells:

Quote:

a sorcerer learns an additional spell, derived from her bloodline. These spells are in addition to the number of spells given...

-James

That quote debunks your entire argument. linguistically, by RAW, the words "in addition to" means they are not counted as spells known, but as a class ability. Do you know the spells? Of course. Literally, you know them. Mechanically, they are a class ability and are not leveled by a PrC other than one that specifically says so.

Liberty's Edge

james maissen wrote:


Are witches now spontaneous casters? No.

Then witches gain new spells per day, and there is no exception for them as patron spells are not an exception.

And had the FAQ said "witches aren't spontaneous casters" you'd be correct. But instead, it specifically made the distinction that patron spells (like bloodline spells) are a class ability, not part of normal spellcasting.

Quote:
I personally think that it was...
Quote:
You were confused as to whether or not I was saying that I had proof of such and was stating fact rather than opinion? Really?

This is the perfect example of what is called intellectual dishonesty. The part I called out as attempting to state a fact without offering proof did not begin with "I personally think..." That was a separate sentence. Your first sentence, which began with what you think was obviously a statement of opinion. The second sentence, which you put forth as a statement of fact, was an attempt to offer support for your opinion.

I'll give you a real world (false, but real world) example to help make it clearer:

If I said "I personally think ten years old is too young to ride a bicycle without supervision." that would be a statement of opinion. If I followed it up with "I knew a ten year old who rode a bicycle without supervision and got hit by a car." That would be a statement of fact, despite having followed a statement of opinion.

Quote:

I'll go and answer your questions right after I have this last question clarified to make sure I have this right:

You don't believe that bloodline spells are spells known, and as a consequence you believe that sorcerers cannot cast their bloodline spells. Is this correct?

This is the last time I will explain this.

"Bloodline spells" is a class ability (technically, it is only a part of a class ability, but that is beside the point). What it does is, at certain levels, it adds a spell to your spells known. However, it is not, in and of itself, part of spells known. It is a class ability.

Now, I have, again, done what you have asked. Repay the favor in kind and answer my questions. I'll quote them again for your convenience.

Quote:

1) I'm a human arcane sorcerer who prestiged out of sorcerer. Do I get the favored class option that adds spells known?

2) Same as above, do I get the blood line feature at 9th level that grants me additional spells known?

3) I'm a haunted oracle who prestiged out. Do I get the +1 level for spells known to learn the spells my curse would give me?

3a) If yes, does that stack with the +1/2 level my curse normally progresses at, enabling me to gain those spells faster than if I was a straight oracle?


Flapjack Johnson wrote:

For reference on bloodline spells:

Quote:

a sorcerer learns an additional spell, derived from her bloodline. These spells are in addition to the number of spells given...

-James

That quote debunks your entire argument. linguistically, by RAW, the words "in addition to" means they are not counted as spells known, but as a class ability. Do you know the spells? Of course. Literally, you know them. Mechanically, they are a class ability and are not leveled by a PrC other than one that specifically says so.

perhaps you want to finish that quote of mine:

Quote:
on Table: Sorcerer Spells Known.

The table 'sorcerer spells known' is not the sum total of all the sorcerer spells known. Please reference a few of ShadowcatX's questions where he is confused on how to handle those. There are a number of places (and feats, abilities, etc) that grant spells known that are in addition to the table.

That 'in addition to' refers to the numbers in those tables. They are expressly spells known, but they are not counted on that table. Ergo, the table cannot be the entirety of spells known.

Linguistically and logically, this is telling you that there are spells known that are not listed on the table. It is not contradicting other text.

-James


ShadowcatX wrote:
"Bloodline spells" is a class ability (technically, it is only a part of a class ability, but that is beside the point). What it does is, at certain levels, it adds a spell to your spells known.

So we agree then that if say a Sorcerer6/Rogue3 were to gain a level as a Sorcerer (becoming Sorcerer7) that they would then have a specific 3rd level spell known based upon their bloodline(s) as well as an additional 1st, 2nd, and 3rd level spell known of their choice.

Their known spells would alter by a total of 4 spells.

If they were to level, instead, as a rogue becoming a Sorcerer6/Rogue4 then they would gain no spells known.

Now let us see what happens if they were to level into the Arcane Trickster Prestige Class.

Quote:
When a new arcane trickster level is gained, the character gains new spells per day as if she had also gained a level in a spellcasting class she belonged to before adding the prestige class. She does not, however, gain other benefits a character of that class would have gained, except for additional spells per day, spells known (if she is a spontaneous spellcaster), and an increased effective level of spellcasting. If a character had more than one spellcasting class before becoming an arcane trickster, she must decide to which class she adds the new level for purposes of determining spells per day.

This tells us that the character would gain the spells as if they had leveled as a Sorcerer, and we check above to Sorcerer7 and apply the result.

Now your questions that are confusing you:

The confusing questions wrote:

1) I'm a human arcane sorcerer who prestiged out of sorcerer. Do I get the favored class option that adds spells known?

2) Same as above, do I get the blood line feature at 9th level that grants me additional spells known?

3) I'm a haunted oracle who prestiged out. Do I get the +1 level for spells known to learn the spells my curse would give me?

3a) If yes, does that stack with the +1/2 level my curse normally progresses at, enabling me to gain those spells faster than if I was a straight oracle?

In each of these we will assume that you have leveled in a Prestige class that is worded similarly to the Arcane Trickster, or that the character is actually taking their 1st level of Arcane Trickster.

In each case, ask yourself the following question:

Had the character taken a level of sorcerer, please figure out the spells that would then become known to them.

1. Yes. Had the character with favored class sorcerer leveled as a sorcerer they would have gained a spell known had they not spent their favored class bonus elsewhere. Thus if the character in question has not spent their favored class bonus elsewhere (and how could they in a PrC), then they would gain a spell known beyond that listed by implication in the table.

2. Yes. Had the character taken another level of sorcerer, they would have these spells known and so they get them now. They do not get to delay that choice by taking a PrC and then select higher level ones.

3. Yes. Had the character instead taken another level in Oracle then they would have these spells known, thus they are gained.

3a. This is a bit confusing. Do we read the Arcane Trickster entry as 'instead of' or 'in addition to'? It does use the word 'also' so I believe that the answer here must also be yes.

I hope that this has been helpful to you. A closer reading of the wording on how the arcane trickster advances casting would have answered all of these questions for you directly of course. Perhaps you might go there first next time?

Now, at one time, WotC had different wordings for different PrCs, but I think that Paizo has done a fair job of streamlining that in their professional manner. But it is possible that another PrC's advancing of casting is less clear than the Arcane Tricksters. Is there one in particular that has been vexing you?

-James


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Shadowcat is not confused, nor am I. I'm on my phone, and didn't feel like retyping your quotewhen I accidentally deleted part of it. Shadowcat is trying to get you to realize your own confusion by making you answer very simple questions that will make you see the truth of the matter. Spells known is a game mechanic, bloodline spells is a different game mechanic. Spells known is advanced, the other is not.


Flapjack Johnson wrote:
Spells known is a game mechanic, bloodline spells is a different game mechanic. Spells known is advanced, the other is not.

They are all spells known.

Here's a simple question: the arcane bloodline ability New Arcana at 9th level does something. Look it up and see what it is.

Now an 8th level arcane bloodline sorcerer is leveling up. If they leveled in sorcerer what would they gain in terms of new spells that they would then know, but didn't know at 8th level?

-James

Liberty's Edge

james maissen wrote:

In each of these we will assume that you have leveled in a Prestige class that is worded similarly to the Arcane Trickster, or that the character is actually taking their 1st level of Arcane Trickster.

In each case, ask yourself the following question:

Had the character taken a level of sorcerer, please figure out the spells that would then become known to them.

1. Yes. Had the character with favored class sorcerer leveled as a sorcerer they would have gained a spell known had they not spent their favored class bonus elsewhere. Thus if the character in question has not spent their favored class bonus elsewhere (and how could they in a PrC), then they would gain a spell known beyond that listed by implication in the table.

2. Yes. Had the character taken another level of sorcerer, they would have these spells known and so they get them now. They do not get to delay that choice by taking a PrC and then select higher level ones.

3. Yes. Had the character instead taken another level in Oracle then they would have these spells known, thus they are gained.

3a. This is a bit confusing. Do we read the Arcane Trickster entry as 'instead of' or 'in addition to'? It does use the word 'also' so I believe that the answer here must also be yes.

I hope that this has been helpful to you. A closer reading of the wording on how the arcane trickster advances casting would have answered all of these questions for you directly of course. Perhaps you might go there first next time?

Now, at one time, WotC had different wordings for different PrCs, but I think that Paizo has done a fair job of streamlining that in their professional manner. But it is possible that another PrC's advancing of casting is less clear than the Arcane Tricksters. Is there one in particular that has been vexing you?

-James

You have answered each one of these differently than I would. I believe our views of what the RAW say to be so different as to render further discussion moot. I'll just cross my fingers and hope this actually gets answered in an FAQ.


ShadowcatX wrote:
You have answered each one of these differently than I would. I believe our views of what the RAW say to be so different as to render further discussion moot. I'll just cross my fingers and hope this actually gets answered in an FAQ.

We both knew that going in.

What part of 'as if you also leveled in sorcerer' don't you want to read?

If a class were to give, say at 9th level, an extra 4th level spell per day beyond the table listed as 'spells per day' would that be gained or not gained by taking the last level in a PrC advancing casting?

Obviously it would be gained. Why? Because you gain spells per day as if you had also leveled in that class. Had you leveled in that class you would be getting that extra 4th level spell per day.

Likewise an arcane bloodline sorcerer is a spontaneous caster. At 9th level in sorcerer he gains a new spell known outside of the table. If his 9th level is instead in a class that advances casting then he, as a spontaneous caster, gets the new spells known as if he had leveled to 9th level sorcerer.

You admit that bloodline spells are spells known, so they follow as well from this. It might not be what you want from the RAW, but it is clearly what is written there.

-James


Prestige Classes give other benefits, so gaining the original class's cool features in addition to the PrC is too much. It might be easier to think of it an an alternate list of "cool tricks". You get those instead, because you chose to advance in that class instead. When the PrC indicates an increase, you get spells known/spell levels/caster levels only.


Jason Rice wrote:
When the PrC indicates an increase, you get spells known/spell levels/caster levels only.

Exactly. But you don't get just some of the spells known/spell levels/caster levels... you get all of those as if you had also leveled in the original class.

-James


BTW, there is no "Spells Known" class cbility, just a "Spells" class ability, which the PrCs never call out.
The same "Spells" class ability that contains other spells known beyond just the table, e.g. Oracle Cure/Inflict.


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This is like arguing with a brick. I'm done. I sincerely hope this gets answered in the faq so I won't feel like I wasted my time.


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bloodline spells ARE spells known...AFTER the bloodline grants them, you take away the bloodline and guess what, they go with it.
Let's please ignore the FAQ that explicitly called out patron spells not advancing because they are a class feature, with zero mention of the fact they also wouldn't advance because they belonged to a prepared caster. Clearly the intent of the question was to ask if bonus spells by class features advanced, to which the answer was no.
Let us also ignore the NPCs, because it is far more likely they misprinted 5 out of 6 rather than just the 1.
Instead let us focus on some ambiguously worded text and state that as insurmountable fact. If you wanna ask one more time if they are spells known, I refer you to the first sentence.

Core rulebook wrote:
At 3rd level, and every two levels thereafter, a sorcerer learns an additional spell, derived from her bloodline.

There is no reason to believe that doesn't fall under "other benefits", seeing as it is derived from her bloodline, which doesn't advance. To restate this AGAIN, if the bloodline grants the feature when it reaches certain levels, and the bloodline never advances to those levels, it doesn't grant the features. THEY ARE NOT SPELLS KNOWN UNTIL THE BLOODLINE GRANTS THEM.


+5 Toaster wrote:
THEY ARE NOT SPELLS KNOWN UNTIL THE BLOODLINE GRANTS THEM.

And when that happens upon leveling, these bloodline spells become spells known.

So, if a 6th level sorcerer were to level to 7th level sorcerer then they would get a bloodline spell as a spell known?

We agree upon this, correct?

Thus, if they leveled into a PrC that said that they would gain all the spells known as if they had leveled to 7th level sorcerer then they would gain it along with the other spells known that a character gets when leveling from 6th level sorcerer to 7th level sorcerer.

Now let's go from RAW which clearly supports the character gaining all the spells known that a sorcerer7 would have over into RAI.

As I read the +1 spellcasting, I read that the sorc6/PrC1 should seem to be a sorc7 as far as all their spellcasting would go. They would lose out on things like bonus feats, things that are dependent on sorcerer class level outside of their casting, etc. However, as far as casting would go.. they would be the same as a sorc7. All the spells known, including bloodline spells, fall into this category of spellcasting ability to me.

I see it as both fitting the RAW solidly, and fitting the RAI properly. Moreover I see denying these specific spells known as going against both the RAW and the RAI (as I read them).

And again

+5 Toaster wrote:
bloodline spells ARE spells known...AFTER the bloodline grants them, you take away the bloodline and guess what, they go with it.

And what are the exceptions to 'everything goes away'?

Please really read the wording of the advancing casting in PrCs. You also level as a character of the base class. You don't gain many of the things you would for doing so (hps, saves, skills, bonus feats, etc) but you do gain spells known.

You agree that in leveling in say sorcerer (as above) that these would be gained as spells known. So they are retained, while things like additional base saves, bonus feats, bloodline powers, etc are not.

-James


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james maissen wrote:
+5 Toaster wrote:
THEY ARE NOT SPELLS KNOWN UNTIL THE BLOODLINE GRANTS THEM.
And when that happens upon leveling, these bloodline spells become spells known.

yes, when the BLOODLINE reaches a certain level it grants those spells to the sorcerer, too bad the language specifically says other benefits of the class do not progress.

Quote:
So, if a 6th level sorcerer were to level to 7th level sorcerer then they would get a bloodline spell as a spell known?

yes a straight sorcerer will receive a bonus spell known from his bloodline when he reaches 7th level, it's a benefit that a bloodline gives to their casters.

Quote:
We agree upon this, correct?

We agree that regular sorcerer gets his bloodline spells at the appropriate levels, we seem to disagree that it's the bloodline that grants them.

Quote:
Thus, if they leveled into a PrC that said that they would gain all the spells known as if they had leveled to 7th level sorcerer then they would gain it along with the other spells known that a character gets when leveling from 6th level sorcerer to 7th level sorcerer.

yes they get their regular spells known yes, but their effective sorcerer level for their bloodline is still 6, that's why their other other bloodline features don't get better, these are what the prc calls out in the other benefits clause. if their effective sorcerer level for the bloodline is six, then it wouldn't add their 7th level bloodline spell, because as far as the bloodline is concerned they are level 6. To repeat myself yet again, they aren't spells known until the bloodline grants them as such.

Quote:
Now let's go from RAW which clearly supports the character gaining all the spells known that a sorcerer7 would have over into RAI.

hah redefine clearly, and all get to RAI in a sec.

Quote:
As I read the +1 spellcasting, I read that the sorc6/PrC1 should seem to be a sorc7 as far as all their spellcasting would go. They would lose out on things like bonus feats, things that are dependent on sorcerer class level outside of their casting, etc. However, as far as casting would go.. they would be the same as a sorc7. All the spells known, including bloodline spells, fall into this category of spellcasting ability to me.

again bloodline spells are not spells known until a the bloodline grants them, which is clearly under other benefits. A theory that 5 out 6 published NPC builds agree on.

Quote:
I see it as both fitting the RAW solidly, and fitting the RAI properly. Moreover I see denying these specific spells known as going against both the RAW and the RAI (as I read them).

so this FAQ pretty much disagrees with the RAI part.

Sean K Reynolds wrote:
No. That is a class feature of the witch class, and the standard "+1 level of spellcasting" prestige class ability only advances spells known, spells per day, effective spellcaster level. (You retain the patron spells from your familiar based on your actual witch level, of course.)

not one mention of the fact that spontaneous caster only get spells known. "Why?" you ask. because the crux of the question was essentially, "do my class features that grant spells continue to do so from Prestige Classes?" Obviously from the response sean read it that way too, because that is essentially what he answered. So claims of RAW and Rai are very much against until you can bring more evidence to the table.

Quote:
+5 Toaster wrote:
bloodline spells ARE spells known...AFTER the bloodline grants them, you take away the bloodline and guess what, they go with it.
And what are the exceptions to 'everything goes away'?

short answer none, no bloodline means no bloodline spells. I really shouldn't have to explain that, if you can find a quote that says spells known granted by class features (aka the exact opposite of the quote I gave) then I will contend that you are right.

Quote:

Please really read the wording of the advancing casting in PrCs. You also level as a character of the base class. You don't gain many of the things you would for doing so (hps, saves, skills, bonus feats, etc) but you do gain spells known.

You agree that in leveling in say sorcerer (as above) that these would be gained as spells known. So they are retained, while things like additional base saves, bonus feats, bloodline powers, etc are not....

I did, a couple times, if you wanna completely ignore the part about them not receiving other benefits a class would receive, the above mentioned quote about class features, and 5 out of 6 published NPC's then you are being willfully ignorant. oh and by the way every time you use "you agree" you are in fact using a begging the question fallacy so I hope you didn't think that actually helped sell your argument to me.

Shadow Lodge

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james maissen wrote:
Now let's go from RAW which clearly supports the character gaining all the spells known that a sorcerer7 would have over into RAI.

James, if it were as clear as you say, then this debate wouldn't be going on. Just throwing that out there off the bat. It sounds like it's clear to you and Quandary RAI, but it very clearly isn't clear RAW.

What is clear RAW is that, upon taking certain levels into certain PrCs, spellcasters gain an advancement of their spellcasting ability. This debate stems directly from RAI, as in, "How much spellcasting do they gain?" Something that is clear RAW is something that can be supported and cannot be denied by the text of the rules. This entire debate has been RAI, or, "What does this passage mean.

Neither side is supported clearly enough to say that it is clearly supported, because if it was, we wouldn't be talking. This goes for both sides of the argument making that statement, you just happened to be the last one.

Now that that rant is over, onto the question at hand.

James, I want to ask you a few questions.

  • What class feature grants bloodline spells?
  • What causes that class feature to advance?
  • Can you gain the benefits of a class feature above the level of the feature you have attained? If so, how?
  • Regarding the Sorcerer, if Spell advancement grants bonus spells, how do you explain the dichotomy between the Spells Per Day class feature and the Blood of Dragons class feature in the Dragon Disciple?

    I'll give short answers to my own questions, except the last which I'd like to use to explain the other side.

    1) A sorcerer's Bloodline class feature grants bloodline spells.
    2) With only Dragon Disciple as an exception, the Bloodline class feature is only advanced by taking a level of Sorcerer.
    3) Yes, but only in specific instances. Ex: a Monk's Robe grants the wearer specific increased effective level benefits of the Monk class.

    And this entire section will be in answer to question 4. Emphasis mine in below quotes.

    Dragon Disciple wrote:
    Spells per Day: At the indicated levels, a dragon disciple gains new spells per day as if he had also gained a level in an arcane spellcasting class he belonged to before adding the prestige class. He does not, however, gain other benefits a character of that class would have gained, except for additional spells per day, spells known (if he is a spontaneous spellcaster), and an increased effective level of spellcasting. If a character had more than one arcane spellcasting class before becoming a dragon disciple, he must decide to which class he adds the new level for purposes of determining spells per day.
    Dragon Disciple wrote:
    Blood of Dragons: A dragon disciple adds his level to his sorcerer levels when determining the powers gained from his bloodline. If the dragon disciple does not have levels of sorcerer, he instead gains bloodline powers of the draconic bloodline, using his dragon disciple level as his sorcerer level to determine the bonuses gained. He must choose a dragon type upon gaining his first level in this class and that type must be the same as his sorcerer type. This ability does not grant bonus spells to a sorcerer unless he possesses spell slots of an appropriate level. Such bonus spells are automatically granted if the sorcerer gains spell slots of the spell’s level.

    Now, looking specifically at this prestige class, which is the only one that makes specific mention of Bloodlines and Sorcerers.

    If the Spells Per Day feature was meant to advance the Bloodline class feature as far as a Sorcerer's Spells Known class feature, why are those spells specifically mentioned in the Blood of Dragons feature?

    It seems to me that the Spells Per Day class feature was intended to not advance the Bloodline feature in any way. If it does, then why would they have to put the bolded bit in Blood of Dragons? That would seem to indicate that the Bloodline Spells are granted twice to a Sorcerer, which doesn't make sense. What makes more sense to me is that this is the only source the Bloodline Spells are coming from in this prestige class. Given that the wording is not significantly different in any other prestige class (except Mystic Theurge), we can then infer that the Spells Per Day advancing the Spells Known class feature does not grant Bloodline Spells.

    There's also another interesting part of the Blood of Dragons ability. It specifically calls out that it advances the Bloodline Spells if the Sorcerer's spellcasting is otherwise advanced. The way I read the last sentence, you could do Sorc 5/DragDisc 1/Eldritch Knight 2, and upon reaching EK 2, you gain spellcasting as a level 6 Sorcerer, plus the bloodline spell that would normally be gained at Sorc 7.

    So, James and Quandary, and the others who stand with them. I invite you to examine the problem of the Dragon Disciple, which is the biggest case against your position being accurate. Please, go through your logic in detail, as I have endeavored to do here. I'll restate the questions I asked up-post.

    Quote:
  • What class feature grants bloodline spells?
  • What causes that class feature to advance?
  • Can you gain the benefits of a class feature above the level of the feature you have attained? If so, how?
  • Regarding the Sorcerer, if Spell advancement grants bonus spells, how do you explain the dichotomy between the Spells Per Day class feature and the Blood of Dragons class feature in the Dragon Disciple?
  • Dragon Disciple wrote:
    Spells per Day: At the indicated levels, a dragon disciple gains new spells per day as if he had also gained a level in an arcane spellcasting class he belonged to before adding the prestige class. He does not, however, gain other benefits a character of that class would have gained, except for additional spells per day, spells known (if he is a spontaneous spellcaster), and an increased effective level of spellcasting. If a character had more than one arcane spellcasting class before becoming a dragon disciple, he must decide to which class he adds the new level for purposes of determining spells per day.
    Dragon Disciple wrote:
    Blood of Dragons: A dragon disciple adds his level to his sorcerer levels when determining the powers gained from his bloodline. If the dragon disciple does not have levels of sorcerer, he instead gains bloodline powers of the draconic bloodline, using his dragon disciple level as his sorcerer level to determine the bonuses gained. He must choose a dragon type upon gaining his first level in this class and that type must be the same as his sorcerer type. This ability does not grant bonus spells to a sorcerer unless he possesses spell slots of an appropriate level. Such bonus spells are automatically granted if the sorcerer gains spell slots of the spell’s level.


  • jlighter wrote:
  • Regarding the Sorcerer, if Spell advancement grants bonus spells, how do you explain the dichotomy between the Spells Per Day class feature and the Blood of Dragons class feature in the Dragon Disciple?
  • Dragon disciple has a feature that also advances the bloodline.

    The bloodline does indeed grant spells known.

    Dragon disciple does not advance casting at each level, unlike other PrCs.

    Take a sorcerer5/dragon disciple6. His effective bloodline level is 11, thus he should gain spell resistance as a 5th level spell known. However, he only casts spells as a sorcerer9 and as such does not get them.

    This special rule only delays when he would gain the indicated spell known. As this spell isn't normally on the wizard/sorcerer list, until now you can argue that he needs to UMD to activate scrolls and the like.

    Say for example he levels as a sorcerer the next level. Without the blood of dragons ability he would not gain the Spell Resistance spell, as that is not something that a sorcerer10 would gain.

    -James


    jlighter wrote:
    we can then infer that the Spells Per Day advancing the Spells Known class feature does not grant Bloodline Spells.

    You may do so, but I do not.

    Simply read the lines in dragon disciple that you, yourself quoted:

    Quote:

    At the indicated levels, a dragon disciple gains new spells per day as if he had also gained a level in an arcane spellcasting class he belonged to before adding the prestige class.

    First let's digest this. We see what new spells per day he would have gained if he had also leveled as a sorcerer. Thus as if he advanced two levels.. one as dragon disciple and one as sorcerer.

    Now we see the part you bolded:

    Quote:
    He does not, however, gain other benefits a character of that class would have gained

    This says that there are some limitations. He does not gain hps, skills, or other possible advantages. But this isn't the end of the sentence!

    It continues:

    Quote:
    except for additional spells per day, spells known (if he is a spontaneous spellcaster), and an increased effective level of spellcasting.

    We agree that a sorcerer5/dragon disciple2 casts as a sorcerer6, has the spells known of a sorcerer6 (plus fly based on the blood of dragons).

    Why does he gain all the spells known that a sorcerer6 would know? Because he gains the spellcasting as if he had advanced also as a sorcerer6.

    Spells known are not limited to a table. There are many ways to gain spells known as one advances in levels as a sorcerer. You list one of them yourself.

    Now read what he does not get: other benefits.

    Then the exception: spells known.

    You are claiming that he doesn't get some spells known because they would be other benefits (bloodline), right?

    I'm telling you to finish reading the sentence to see that spells known are exempt from the 'no other benefits' and thus he gets them.

    -James

    Liberty's Edge

    Neither side is listening to one another any longer. I don't know if they ever did to begin with. For example, you'll notice that the subject of the bloodline spells doesn't advance having 5 npcs that follow that rule never gets discussed on their side. Just keep clicking the FAQ button and maybe next week Paizo will settle this.

    Shadow Lodge

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    James, while I see why you would say that, I disagree with your reasoning. The reason why all of the Spells Per Day abilities are worded the way they are for the prestige classes is because, with very few exceptions, they strictly have to be able to handle multiple class inputs. A Bard, for example, wouldn't gain bloodline spells, even if he was taking Dragon Disciple.

    This is part of why ShadowcatX and others have continued to cite the SKR response about the Witch and Patron spells. Patron spells function, in all relevant ways, the same way as Bloodline spells. The only difference? A Witch is not a spontaneous caster.

    While advancing from Sorc 5 to Sorc 6 would grant a Bloodline spell, it does so specifically because it advances the Bloodline class feature. Without advancing the Bloodline class feature, the benefits of advancing the Bloodline class feature are not given to the character, the same as if a Witch's spellcasting were advanced without advancing her Patron class feature.

    james maissen wrote:

    We agree that a sorcerer5/dragon disciple2 casts as a sorcerer6, has the spells known of a sorcerer6 (plus fly based on the blood of dragons).

    Why does he gain all the spells known that a sorcerer6 would know? Because he gains the spellcasting as if he had advanced also as a sorcerer6.

    These two sentences are, in some ways contradictory, I have to point out. In the first, you say that he gains the Fly spell because of Blood of Dragons, which is specifically advancing his bloodline. In the second, you say that he gained it because his spellcasting was advanced.

    What I see is this. Sorc 5/DD 1 casts spells as a 5th-level Sorcerer. His draconic Bloodline is currently at level 6, given by Blood of Dragons. This means that he gets Fly as a Spell Known. But he doesn't have a spell slot that can cast Fly, so it goes on the shelf, waiting for the Sorcerer to get another caster level.

    Sorc 5/DD 1 takes his 7th character level as DD 2. What this grants him is the following: First, it improves his spellcaster level to level 6, granting him the ability to cast spells as if he were a Sorcerer at level 6, the normal Spells Known table of a level 6 Sorcerer, and the caster level of a level 6 Sorcerer. Then, after that, the Blood of Dragons ability advances his Bloodline level to level 6. His powers advance appropriately, and then Blood of Dragons notices that he has a bloodline spell that he was supposed to have already, and that he can now cast it. That then takes the spell off the shelf and dumps it into his brain.

    Alternate scenario. Sorc 5/EK 1 takes his 7th character level as EK 2. His spellcasting ability is advanced (spell slots of a Sorcerer 6, Spells Known table of a Sorcerer 6, caster level of a Sorcerer 6). His bloodline, however, stays at level 5, same as it was. The bloodlines spells, which are specifically stated to be derived from the bloodline, do not advance, either.

    You see this:

    Quote:
    except for additional spells per day, spells known (if he is a spontaneous spellcaster), and an increased effective level of spellcasting.

    as exceptions to this statement:

    Quote:
    He does not, however, gain other benefits a character of that class would have gained

    I disagree with that interpretation. What I see is a clarification. He gains increased spellcasting (which includes spells per day, spells known, increased caster level) as if he had advanced in the class, but he doesn't gain other benefits of that class (bloodline, patron, bardic performance, etc.) or abilities derived from those benefits.

    And while I appreciate your position, telling me that I'm merely not finishing a sentence isn't supporting your position. I have read those sentences some hundred times at least in my time gaming, and am very familiar with their wording (RAW) and my (and others') version of their implications (RAI).

    You may also note, in reading the Sorcerer class ability relating to bloodline spells, those spells are never referred to as Spells Known. They are learned, yes, and they are spells a Sorcerer can cast in addition to the Spells Known. They are never stated to be Spells Known, however, so any ability that advances Spells Known would not advance them.

    That last paragraph may be a fallacious argument, and I'm sure you'll ignore it, but it is, strictly speaking, an accurate one.

    Shadow Lodge

    james maissen wrote:
    Spells known are not limited to a table. There are many ways to gain spells known as one advances in levels as a sorcerer. You list one of them yourself.

    And to clarify, there is only one way to gain spells known aside from the table that I know of. Advancing a Sorcerer's Bloodline ability. Nothing else grants a Sorcerer innate spellcasting beyond that table that I've seen. The only other way I've seen to grant a Sorcerer any other spellcasting ability would be a wand/scroll/magic item.


    ShadowcatX wrote:
    Neither side is listening to one another any longer. I don't know if they ever did to begin with. For example, you'll notice that the subject of the bloodline spells doesn't advance having 5 npcs that follow that rule never gets discussed on their side. Just keep clicking the FAQ button and maybe next week Paizo will settle this.

    Given the general behavior of some members of the community regarding the two-handed weapon\TWF FAQs offered last week, I wouldn't be surprised if we don't see FAQ answers ever again. :P

    Liberty's Edge

    Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
    Quandary wrote:

    BTW, there is no "Spells Known" class cbility, just a "Spells" class ability, which the PrCs never call out.

    The same "Spells" class ability that contains other spells known beyond just the table, e.g. Oracle Cure/Inflict.
    PRD wrote:


    Spells: A sorcerer casts arcane spells drawn primarily from the sorcerer/wizard spell list presented in Spell Lists. She can cast any spell she knows without preparing it ahead of time. To learn or cast a spell, a sorcerer must have a Charisma score equal to at least 10 + the spell level. The Difficulty Class for a saving throw against a sorcerer's spell is 10 + the spell level + the sorcerer's Charisma modifier.

    Like other spellcasters, a sorcerer can cast only a certain number of spells of each spell level per day. Her base daily spell allotment is given on Table: Sorcerer. In addition, she receives bonus spells per day if she has a high Charisma score (see Table: Ability Modifiers and Bonus Spells).

    A sorcerer's selection of spells is extremely limited. A sorcerer begins play knowing four 0-level spells and two 1st-level spells of her choice. At each new sorcerer level, she gains one or more new spells, as indicated on Table: Sorcerer Spells Known. (Unlike spells per day, the number of spells a sorcerer knows is not affected by her Charisma score; the numbers on Table: Sorcerer Spells Known are fixed.) These new spells can be common spells chosen from the sorcerer/wizard spell list, or they can be unusual spells that the sorcerer has gained some understanding of through study.

    Upon reaching 4th level, and at every even-numbered sorcerer level after that (6th, 8th, and so on), a sorcerer can choose to learn a new spell in place of one she already knows. In effect, the sorcerer loses the old spell in exchange for the new one. The new spell's level must be the same as that of the spell being exchanged. A sorcerer may swap only a single spell at any given level, and must choose whether or not to swap the spell at the same time that she gains new spells known for the level.

    Unlike a wizard or a cleric, a sorcerer need not prepare her spells in advance. She can cast any spell she knows at any time, assuming she has not yet used up her spells per day for that spell level.

    So the spell feature reference only the spells in the Sorcerer Spells Known table. Not the bloodline spells.

    PRD wrote:


    Spells per Day: When a new mystic theurge level is gained, the character gains new spells per day as if he had also gained a level in any one arcane spellcasting class he belonged to before he added the prestige class and any one divine spellcasting class he belonged to previously. He does not, however, gain other benefits a character of that class would have gained. This essentially means that he adds the level of mystic theurge to the level of whatever other arcane spellcasting class and divine spellcasting class the character has, then determines spells per day, spells known, and caster level accordingly. If a character had more than one arcane spellcasting class or more than one divine spellcasting class before he became a mystic theurge, he must decide to which class he adds each level of mystic theurge for the purpose of determining spells per day.

    He gain spells like a sorcerer of the appropriate level, but not the bloodline powers.

    The spell part of the sorcerer class reference only the table, not the bloodline powers.
    You should work very hard to read it your way.

    For comparison, the Dragon disciple say:

    PRD wrote:


    Spells per Day: At the indicated levels, a dragon disciple gains new spells per day as if he had also gained a level in an arcane spellcasting class he belonged to before adding the prestige class. He does not, however, gain other benefits a character of that class would have gained, except for additional spells per day, spells known (if he is a spontaneous spellcaster), and an increased effective level of spellcasting. If a character had more than one arcane spellcasting class before becoming a dragon disciple, he must decide to which class he adds the new level for purposes of determining spells per day.

    Blood of Dragons: A dragon disciple adds his level to his sorcerer levels when determining the powers gained from his bloodline. If the dragon disciple does not have levels of sorcerer, he instead gains bloodline powers of the draconic bloodline, using his dragon disciple level as his sorcerer level to determine the bonuses gained. He must choose a dragon type upon gaining his first level in this class and that type must be the same as his sorcerer type. This ability does not grant bonus spells to a sorcerer unless he possesses spell slots of an appropriate level. Such bonus spells are automatically granted if the sorcerer gains spell slots of the spell's level.

    Blood of Dragons specifically say you get your bloodline spells if you can cast them, but it is a different section of the rules. If all the prestige classes with the spell feature automatically get the bloodline spells, why it was necessary to specify that?

    Liberty's Edge

    Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
    james maissen wrote:
    +5 Toaster wrote:
    THEY ARE NOT SPELLS KNOWN UNTIL THE BLOODLINE GRANTS THEM.

    And when that happens upon leveling, these bloodline spells become spells known.

    But you aren't levelling the bloodline when you get a level as a Mystic theurge. You are levelling only the spell class ability.


    jlighter wrote:
    What I see is this. Sorc 5/DD 1 casts spells as a 5th-level Sorcerer. His draconic Bloodline is currently at level 6, given by Blood of Dragons. This means that he gets Fly as a Spell Known.

    I don't have time to give full detailed responses, but this should be cut and dry.

    He does NOT gain fly at this point. Both sides should be able to agree upon this. It normally should not matter (as you do not have spell slots for it), but in the case I list above.. they would not have spell completion on the spell Spell Resistance until it became a spell known.

    jlighter wrote:
    First, it improves his spellcaster level to level 6, granting him the ability to cast spells as if he were a Sorcerer at level 6, the normal Spells Known table of a level 6 Sorcerer, and the caster level of a level 6 Sorcerer. Then, after that, the Blood of Dragons ability advances his Bloodline level to level 6. His powers advance appropriately, and then Blood of Dragons notices that he has a bloodline spell that he was supposed to have already, and that he can now cast it. That then takes the spell off the shelf and dumps it into his brain.

    Except that's not exactly how the lines of text quoted actually work. Nor is it what they say to do.

    What are all of the spells known that a sorcerer6 would gain by leveling to sorcerer7?

    Sorcerer is a spontaneous caster, thus the exception applies and the character gains all of these new spells known as if they were also becoming a sorcerer7.

    Undeniably a draconic bloodline sorcerer7 gets fly as a bloodline spell.

    Both sides of this debate do agree that fly becomes a spell known here.

    Now according to say the arcane trickster wording (which is the one I'm going off of for sake of not moving goal posts) the character would gain the spells known as if they had also leveled to sorcerer7.

    This means that they would get the fly spell as a spell known.

    -James


    Diego Rossi wrote:
    james maissen wrote:
    +5 Toaster wrote:
    THEY ARE NOT SPELLS KNOWN UNTIL THE BLOODLINE GRANTS THEM.

    And when that happens upon leveling, these bloodline spells become spells known.

    But you aren't levelling the bloodline when you get a level as a Mystic theurge. You are levelling only the spell class ability.

    Diego, I'm traveling right now so I can't expound too much.. but I had picked the Arcane Trickster as the wording of advancing casting. Would you mind looking at that one?

    There it says that you would not get other things EXCEPT for spells known. The bloodline spells are spells known just as much as those on the class table. The wording there supports gaining all of them regardless of whether it is via the table, the spells entry, a bloodline power, etc. The litmus there is as if you had also leveled as a sorcerer (in our case).

    -James

    PS: I answered the question below already up thread.

    Diego Rossi wrote:
    Blood of Dragons specifically say you get your bloodline spells if you can cast them, but it is a different section of the rules. If all the prestige classes with the spell feature automatically get the bloodline spells, why it was necessary to specify that?

    Shadow Lodge

    james maissen wrote:
    jlighter wrote:
    What I see is this. Sorc 5/DD 1 casts spells as a 5th-level Sorcerer. His draconic Bloodline is currently at level 6, given by Blood of Dragons. This means that he gets Fly as a Spell Known.

    I don't have time to give full detailed responses, but this should be cut and dry.

    He does NOT gain fly at this point. Both sides should be able to agree upon this. It normally should not matter (as you do not have spell slots for it), but in the case I list above.. they would not have spell completion on the spell Spell Resistance until it became a spell known.

    You're right. I admit that I gaffed here. He would gain Fly as a Spell Known at DD 2. My original intention, though, was that the Blood of Dragons ability goes to check and see how his bloodline works at level X, and retrieves all abilities that he would normally gain. In this case, it retrieves that he would be getting a bloodline spell, and it tries to add it to his spells learned. That spell doesn't actually get added to spells learned until he has a spell slot that can cast it.

    jlighter wrote:
    First, it improves his spellcaster level to level 6, granting him the ability to cast spells as if he were a Sorcerer at level 6, the normal Spells Known table of a level 6 Sorcerer, and the caster level of a level 6 Sorcerer. Then, after that, the Blood of Dragons ability advances his Bloodline level to level 6. His powers advance appropriately, and then Blood of Dragons notices that he has a bloodline spell that he was supposed to have already, and that he can now cast it. That then takes the spell off the shelf and dumps it into his brain.
    Except that's not exactly how the lines of text quoted actually work. Nor is it what they say to do.

    Metaphor. Explaining, for the purpose of an argument, order of operations.

    james maissen wrote:

    What are all of the spells known that a sorcerer6 would gain by leveling to sorcerer7?

    Sorcerer is a spontaneous caster, thus the exception applies and the character gains all of these new spells known as if they were also becoming a sorcerer7.

    Undeniably a draconic bloodline sorcerer7 gets fly as a bloodline spell.

    Both sides of this debate do agree that fly becomes a spell known here.

    Now according to say the arcane trickster wording (which is the one I'm going off of for sake of not moving goal posts) the character would gain the spells known as if they had also leveled to sorcerer7.

    This means that they would get the fly spell as a spell known.

    -James

    The spells known to a Sorc 6 when he levels to Sorc 7 are completely irrelevant. In our scenario (Sorc 5/DD 2), he never levels to Sorc 7. He is a Sorc 5 in all ways, EXCEPT that he casts spells as a Sorc 6, and he has bloodline powers as a Sorc 7. He doesn't get two caster levels out of the equation. Fly is coming out of his Bloodline 7, not out of his Spellcasting 6.

    With regards to moving goalposts, I believe I can say that you're the one moving them by switching to Arcane Trickster in a brief discussion about Dragon Disciple text. But for the purpose of the argument, your argument has to be able to stand up to the moving of the goal posts (switching PrC). Our argument has been consistent regardless of what PrC we're talking about.

    As a note, you didn't answer my question a ways back regarding the redundancy of the wording in Blood of Dragons if your view is correct.

    Shadow Lodge

    james maissen wrote:

    PS: I answered the question below already up thread.

    Diego Rossi wrote:
    Blood of Dragons specifically say you get your bloodline spells if you can cast them, but it is a different section of the rules. If all the prestige classes with the spell feature automatically get the bloodline spells, why it was necessary to specify that?

    And just to clarify, you didn't answer this question. You threw something out there that filled the gap left by an answer, and demonstrates a function of it, but it didn't address the issue of the redundant wording.


    jlighter wrote:
    And just to clarify, you didn't answer this question. You threw something out there that filled the gap left by an answer, and demonstrates a function of it, but it didn't address the issue of the redundant wording.

    Then please rephrase and expound upon the question so that I fully understand what you want in way of an answer.

    As to speaking about arcane trickster's wording, I picked that way up in the thread as an example of one of the +1 spell casting. I picked it simply because it was the first core PrC to advance at each level which would not complicate things.

    As to fly coming out of bloodline 7, of course, because the PC in your example doesn't cast as a sorcerer 7. So huzzah we agree!

    Now the rogue3/sorcerer6 with the dragonic bloodline would, in leveling in arcane trickster gain fly as a spell known just as he would gain it as a spell known if he were to also level in sorcerer (becoming sorcerer7).

    -James


    james maissen wrote:
    jlighter wrote:
    And just to clarify, you didn't answer this question. You threw something out there that filled the gap left by an answer, and demonstrates a function of it, but it didn't address the issue of the redundant wording.

    Then please rephrase and expound upon the question so that I fully understand what you want in way of an answer.

    As to speaking about arcane trickster's wording, I picked that way up in the thread as an example of one of the +1 spell casting. I picked it simply because it was the first core PrC to advance at each level which would not complicate things.

    As to fly coming out of bloodline 7, of course, because the PC in your example doesn't cast as a sorcerer 7. So huzzah we agree!

    Now the rogue3/sorcerer6 with the dragonic bloodline would, in leveling in arcane trickster gain fly as a spell known just as he would gain it as a spell known if he were to also level in sorcerer (becoming sorcerer7).

    -James

    No, no he wouldn't. Think of it like this. There two hallways. One is the sorcerer hallway, and each door contains something you get if you leveled as a sorcerer.

    The other is the PrC hallway. The doors there contain what you get when you level as the PrC.

    Fly, a bloodline spell, is locked behind a door in the sorcerer hallway, because it is gained as a bloodline class ability.

    When you level in a PrC that grants +1 spellcasting, you get to open a door that gives you spells per day, and spells known. Since fly is still locked behind that door (because it is given as a class ability, and therefore not a "spell known" until you have the key to open the door), you do not get it. The only way to get it is to do one of three things:

    1. Take levels in sorcerer until you can open the door.
    2. Take the Dragon Disciple PrC to gain your bloodline stuff.
    3. Take Fly as a normal spell known off of the spells known table.

    Spells known, in the literally definition, is a misnomer in this case. Yes, if you have fly, you know it. However, in this case, it is simply the name of a class feature. Yes, if you gain fly through a bloodline power, you know the spell. But that's not what the class feature means. It means you have a spells known table, that tells you what you get when you gain a sorcerer level. That table is advanced by a +1 spellcasting PrC.

    If it helps you, think of this: The design team recently ruled on the TWF while THF fighting thing because it was "too powerful". If they think THAT is too powerful, why on Golarion would they rule that a sorcerer would gain everything that matters in a PrC, and not have to take any more sorcerer levels.

    If that were the case, you would never see any sorcerers, ever, that didn't PrC as soon as they got the chance.

    I really, really, hope this helps you.


    No reasons not to take a PrC except for the OTHER Class Features of Base Casting Classes BESIDES Spells Known?
    I understand that some people feel this is against the spirit of the PrCs or something.
    But this inherently isn't granting anything but spells known, no SLAs, no (Su) abilities, stat boosts, or really crazy stuff.
    It's only affecting the spells known aspect of spellcasting. When it's clear that Specialist Wizards and Clerics are getting their extra slots with PrCs (which is prepared casters' main limiter re: core spellcasting mechanic), including Domains' "off-list access"... and THEY clearly don't all PrC out, Why does Sorcerors getting their bonus spells known (which is their main limiter re: core spellcasting mechanic) when taking a PrC seem that far out of whack?
    When many types of characters spend precious Feats, including "Feat Tax" for Skill Focus, in order to take the Eldritch Heritage line of Feats for Sorceror Class abilities which are all the ones NOT granted by PrC Spells Known progression (barring Arcane: New Arcana, but only other (non-Arcane) Sorceror casters can use that in the first place), doesn't that demonstrate that something IS being given up when Sorcerors advance a PrC instead?
    Not to mention Favored Class, aka 'Take this limited option mini-Feat for free, only if you took the actual class level'?

    My question is: If you can't gain Bloodline Spells "because it is a class ability", how are you gaining "normal"/"base" spells known? Or Oracle Cure/Inflict? Because those are also part of a class ability, called "Spells". The "Spells" class ability is never specially granted by the PrC text. If the PrC text doesn't allow for spells known contained within or granted by class abilities, and it doesn't specially allow the "Spells" class ability, how can it grant any spells known at all?

    If the intent was for PrCs to only advance the "Spells" class feature and never anything else, why didn't they just say "You advance the "Spells" class feature as if you gained a level in the selected spellcasting class"? That would be shorter and simpler than the current text.

    Shadow Lodge

    james maissen wrote:
    jlighter wrote:
    And just to clarify, you didn't answer this question. You threw something out there that filled the gap left by an answer, and demonstrates a function of it, but it didn't address the issue of the redundant wording.
    Then please rephrase and expound upon the question so that I fully understand what you want in way of an answer.

    Fair enough. Rephrasing the question.

    If Bloodline spells are already granted by the wording of the Spells Per Day advancement section, why are they specifically mentioned as being granted by the Blood of Dragons ability?

    And, just addressing one of your possible answers, why are they addressed as being granted by the ability, as opposed to just using the phrasing about early-access?

    Ex: This:

    Dragon Disciple wrote:
    This ability does not grant bonus spells to a sorcerer unless he possesses spell slots of an appropriate level. Such bonus spells are automatically granted if the sorcerer gains spell slots of the spell’s level.

    As opposed to this:

    Quote:
    This ability grants bonus spells to a sorcerer automatically if the sorcerer gains spell slots of the spell's level.

    The wording in Blood of Dragons granting bonus spells is redundant in your interpretation, as they would already be able to get the spells. If they just needed the early-access clause, why grant the other clause? It doesn't apply to Bards, as it specifically mentions granting them to Sorcerers.

    Quandary wrote:
    It's only affecting the spells known aspect of spellcasting. When it's clear that Specialist Wizards and Clerics are getting their extra slots with PrCs (which is prepared casters' main limiter re: core spellcasting mechanic), including Domains' "off-list access"... and THEY clearly don't all PrC out, Why does Sorcerors getting their bonus spells known (which is their main limiter re: core spellcasting mechanic) when taking a PrC seem that far out of whack?

    I think I can answer this part of the question. Let's take a look at the relevant passages for Clerics and Wizard.

    Arcane School wrote:
    ... In addition, specialist wizards receive an additional spell slot of each spell level he can cast, from 1st on up. Each day, a wizard can prepare a spell from his specialty school in that slot. ...
    Domains wrote:
    ... A cleric gains one domain spell slot for each level of cleric spell she can cast, from 1st on up. Each day, a cleric can prepare one of the spells from her two domains in that slot. If a domain spell is not on the cleric spell list, a cleric can prepare it only in her domain spell slot. ...

    These are abilities granted at 1st level. They make no reference of being tied to level in Cleric or Wizard, nor are they based in an ability that (as a whole) cares about levels in Cleric or Wizard. While certain sub-powers may be level-dependent, these are granted at 1st level. When boiled down together, they state:

    This caster receives one specialty bonus spell slot per level of [class X] spell they can cast.

    Granted at level 1, and independent of class levels. They don't receive those slots if they don't level the casting ability of that class.

    As for Clerics getting access to the "not-on-list" spells, they already had it. Clerics, at level 1, have their complete spell list planned out. They get access to the entire thing in order of spell level they can cast. To use colorful language, they have a key to a single building with ten rooms. Between each room there is a locked door. At level 1, they have they key to the building (room 1: 0-level spells), as well as the key to the second room. At each odd caster-level beyond 1st, they gain the key to the next room in line.

    And why aren't the domain spells restricted by the Cleric's level? Because they are never worded to do so, while the domain powers are specifically called out twice as being such. Emphasis mine:

    Domains wrote:
    Each domain grants a number of domain powers, dependent upon the level of the cleric, as well as a number of bonus spells. ... In addition, a cleric gains the listed powers from both of her domains, if she is of a high enough level.

    I'd address other parts of Quandary's post, but I don't have enough time at this very instant. I invite Quandary to address my questions several posts up that James already looked at, so that we of the opposition camp might get a different viewpoint on your camp's views.

    And James, I disagree that your Rog 3/Sorc 6/AT 1 gets Fly as a Spell Known for previously stated reasons.

    -jlighter


    jlighter wrote:

    Fair enough. Rephrasing the question.

    If Bloodline spells are already granted by the wording of the Spells Per Day advancement section, why are they specifically mentioned as being granted by the Blood of Dragons ability?

    And, just addressing one of your possible answers, why are they addressed as being granted by the ability, as opposed to just using the phrasing about early-access?

    Ex: This:

    Dragon Disciple wrote:
    This ability does not grant bonus spells to a sorcerer unless he possesses spell slots of an appropriate level. Such bonus spells are automatically granted if the sorcerer gains spell slots of the spell’s level.

    As opposed to this:

    Quote:
    This ability grants bonus spells to a sorcerer automatically if the sorcerer gains spell slots of the spell's level.
    The wording in Blood of Dragons granting bonus spells is redundant in your interpretation, as they would already be able to get the spells.

    Let us look at the sorcerer5/DD2 without the Blood of Dragons ability but with my reading of the advancement.

    The character would cast spells and know all the spells of a sorcerer6 which would mean that they would not have the bloodline spell: fly.

    Under my reading, without the blood of dragons ability they would gain the spell: fly when they became, in effect, a sorcerer7.

    Thus the part of the blood of dragons ability grants these spells to the sorcerer/dragon disciple a level or two early.

    -James

    Shadow Lodge

    james maissen wrote:
    jlighter wrote:

    Fair enough. Rephrasing the question.

    If Bloodline spells are already granted by the wording of the Spells Per Day advancement section, why are they specifically mentioned as being granted by the Blood of Dragons ability?

    And, just addressing one of your possible answers, why are they addressed as being granted by the ability, as opposed to just using the phrasing about early-access?

    Ex: This:

    Dragon Disciple wrote:
    This ability does not grant bonus spells to a sorcerer unless he possesses spell slots of an appropriate level. Such bonus spells are automatically granted if the sorcerer gains spell slots of the spell’s level.

    As opposed to this:

    Quote:
    This ability grants bonus spells to a sorcerer automatically if the sorcerer gains spell slots of the spell's level.
    The wording in Blood of Dragons granting bonus spells is redundant in your interpretation, as they would already be able to get the spells.

    Let us look at the sorcerer5/DD2 without the Blood of Dragons ability but with my reading of the advancement.

    The character would cast spells and know all the spells of a sorcerer6 which would mean that they would not have the bloodline spell: fly.

    Under my reading, without the blood of dragons ability they would gain the spell: fly when they became, in effect, a sorcerer7.

    Thus the part of the blood of dragons ability grants these spells to the sorcerer/dragon disciple a level or two early.

    -James

    And the second part of the question? Why is it phrased the way it is, as opposed to using the alternate phrasing that I offered (or some equivalent thereof), which grants the early access benefit?

    Liberty's Edge

    Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
    james maissen wrote:
    Diego Rossi wrote:
    james maissen wrote:
    +5 Toaster wrote:
    THEY ARE NOT SPELLS KNOWN UNTIL THE BLOODLINE GRANTS THEM.

    And when that happens upon leveling, these bloodline spells become spells known.

    But you aren't levelling the bloodline when you get a level as a Mystic theurge. You are levelling only the spell class ability.

    Diego, I'm traveling right now so I can't expound too much.. but I had picked the Arcane Trickster as the wording of advancing casting. Would you mind looking at that one?

    There it says that you would not get other things EXCEPT for spells known. The bloodline spells are spells known just as much as those on the class table. The wording there supports gaining all of them regardless of whether it is via the table, the spells entry, a bloodline power, etc. The litmus there is as if you had also leveled as a sorcerer (in our case).

    -James

    PS: I answered the question below already up thread.

    Diego Rossi wrote:
    Blood of Dragons specifically say you get your bloodline spells if you can cast them, but it is a different section of the rules. If all the prestige classes with the spell feature automatically get the bloodline spells, why it was necessary to specify that?
    Arcane trickster wrote:
    Spells per Day: When a new arcane trickster level is gained, the character gains new spells per day as if she had also gained a level in a spellcasting class she belonged to before adding the prestige class. She does not, however, gain other benefits a character of that class would have gained, except for additional spells per day, spells known (if she is a spontaneous spellcaster), and an increased effective level of spellcasting. If a character had more than one spellcasting class before becoming an arcane trickster, she must decide to which class she adds the new level for purposes of determining spells per day.
    PRD wrote:

    Spells: A sorcerer casts arcane spells drawn primarily from the sorcerer/wizard spell list presented in Spell Lists. She can cast any spell she knows without preparing it ahead of time. To learn or cast a spell, a sorcerer must have a Charisma score equal to at least 10 + the spell level. The Difficulty Class for a saving throw against a sorcerer's spell is 10 + the spell level + the sorcerer's Charisma modifier.

    Like other spellcasters, a sorcerer can cast only a certain number of spells of each spell level per day. Her base daily spell allotment is given on Table: Sorcerer. In addition, she receives bonus spells per day if she has a high Charisma score (see Table: Ability Modifiers and Bonus Spells).

    A sorcerer's selection of spells is extremely limited. A sorcerer begins play knowing four 0-level spells and two 1st-level spells of her choice. At each new sorcerer level, she gains one or more new spells, as indicated on Table: Sorcerer Spells Known. (Unlike spells per day, the number of spells a sorcerer knows is not affected by her Charisma score; the numbers on Table: Sorcerer Spells Known are fixed.) These new spells can be common spells chosen from the sorcerer/wizard spell list, or they can be unusual spells that the sorcerer has gained some understanding of through study.

    Upon reaching 4th level, and at every even-numbered sorcerer level after that (6th, 8th, and so on), a sorcerer can choose to learn a new spell in place of one she already knows. In effect, the sorcerer loses the old spell in exchange for the new one. The new spell's level must be the same as that of the spell being exchanged. A sorcerer may swap only a single spell at any given level, and must choose whether or not to swap the spell at the same time that she gains new spells known for the level.

    Unlike a wizard or a cleric, a sorcerer need not prepare her spells in advance. She can cast any spell she knows at any time, assuming she has not yet used up her spells per day for that spell level.

    The bloodline spells are one of those "other benefits" you don't get.

    There is a specific table of spell know and separate benefit based on increasing your bloodline level, something that arcane trickster don't do.

    Just to complete the citation:

    bloodline wrote:
    At 3rd level, and every two levels thereafter, a sorcerer learns an additional spell, derived from her bloodline. These spells are in addition to the number of spells given on Table: Sorcerer Spells Known. These spells cannot be exchanged for different spells at higher levels.

    A specific benefit that add spells. A benefit that you don't get if you become a arcane trickster.


    jlighter wrote:
    And the second part of the question? Why is it phrased the way it is, as opposed to using the alternate phrasing that I offered (or some equivalent thereof), which grants the early access benefit?

    Is your wording better?

    In my opinion, yes it is.

    But many places in the rules could be better.

    The wording of the ability does, indeed, do something. It does exactly what your better wording does as well. Perhaps it was clearer to the writer the other way, perhaps they didn't consider your phrasing, etc.

    Your comment was that the phrase was superfluous, and it is not under either reading of the rules.

    -James


    So Diego, your position is that Oracle free Cure/Inflict spells aren't advanced by PrCs?

    @Jlighter: So you don't believe that this is at all unbalancing for Sorcerors to receive an equivalent benefit?
    That you in fact believe Sorcerors are being screwed over by your reading of the PrC rules for them and Clerics/Spec Wizards?
    Meta-design-wise, of course the same wording could not have been used for Sorcerors because Paizo
    decided that they don't get BL spells as soon as they get a spell level, but staggered after that.
    Either way what you believe about the balance of it, the straightforward reading of the PrC RAW still does not distinguish between class features.
    Thus there's no reason why the PrCs shouldn't grant ALL spells known from the base class,
    even though Sorceror's base class wording is written differently than Clerics/Spec Wizards.
    In fact, Clerics/Spec Wizards should get their bonus slots even if they were presented as linked to class level in the base class, because "slots/day" and "additional slots/day" are things explicitly granted by the PrCs ~"as if taking a level in the class".
    As I wrote, if the intent was just to advance the "Spells" class feature, that would be shorter, simpler, and clearer than specifying each category of effect that is advanced.

    jamesmaissen wrote:
    Your comment was that the phrase was superfluous, and it is not under either reading of the rules.

    James and others (I believe) have detailed exactly how the DD wording is not superfluous / functionally identical with the spells known progression on several occassions, yet people keep ignoring that at calling it superfluous. Never mind that the rules are superfluous in many places, superfluousness does not negate what the rules say.

    Liberty's Edge

    Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
    Quandary wrote:

    So Diego, your position is that Oracle free Cure/Inflict spells aren't advanced by PrCs?

    Straw man Quandary or you simply haven't read the reply to the same question several posts above?

    PRD wrote:

    Spells: An oracle casts divine spells drawn from the cleric spell lists. She can cast any spell she knows without preparing it ahead of time. To learn or cast a spell, an oracle must have a Charisma score equal to at least 10 + the spell level. The Difficulty Class for a saving throw against an oracle's spell is 10 + the spell's level + the oracle's Charisma modifier.

    Like other spellcasters, an oracle can cast only a certain number of spells per day of each spell level. Her base daily spell allotment is given on Table 2–5. In addition, she receives bonus spells per day if she has a high Charisma score (see Table 1–3 of the Pathfinder RPG Core Rulebook).

    Unlike other divine spellcasters, an oracle's selection of spells is extremely limited. An oracle begins play knowing four 0-level spells and two 1st-level spells of her choice. At each new oracle level, she gains one or more new spells, as indicated on Table 2–6. Unlike spells per day, the number of spells an oracle knows is not affected by her Charisma score; the numbers on Table 2–6 are fixed.

    In addition to the spells gained by oracles as they gain levels, each oracle also adds all of either the cure spells or the inflict spells to her list of spells known (cure spells include all spells with “cure” in the name, inflict spells include all spells with “inflict” in the name). These spells are added as soon as the oracle is capable of casting them. This choice is made when the oracle gains her first level and cannot be changed.

    Upon reaching 4th level, and at every even-numbered oracle level after that (6th, 8th, and so on), an oracle can choose to learn a new spell in place of one she already knows. In effect, the oracle loses the old spell in exchange for the new one. The new spell's level must be the same as that of the spell being exchanged. An oracle may swap only a single spell at any given level, and must choose whether or not to swap the spell at the same time that she gains new spells known for the level. She cannot swap any cure or inflict spells, nor can she swap any spells gained from her mystery.

    Unlike a cleric, an oracle need not prepare her spells in advance. She can cast any spell she knows at any time, assuming she has not yet used up her spells per day for that spell level. Oracles do not need to provide a divine focus to cast spells that list divine focus (DF) as part of the components.

    It is not an additional feature [like the bloodline spells], it is in the middle of the Spell feature. The feature that you get with the prestige classes.

    What you don't get are the Mystery spells:

    PRD wrote:

    Mystery: Each oracle draws upon a divine mystery to grant her spells and powers. This mystery also grants additional class skills and other special abilities. This mystery can represent a devotion to one ideal, prayers to deities that support the concept, or a natural calling to champion a cause. For example, an oracle with the waves mystery might have been born at sea and found a natural calling to worship the gods of the oceans, rivers, and lakes, be they benign or malevolent. Regardless of its source, the mystery manifests in a number of ways as the oracle gains levels. An oracle must pick one mystery upon taking her first level of oracle. Once made, this choice cannot be changed.

    At 2nd level, and every two levels thereafter, an oracle learns an additional spell derived from her mystery. These spells are in addition to the number of spells given on Table 2–6. They cannot be exchanged for different spells at higher levels.

    Those are an additional benefits.


    Not a strawman, your last post only referenced the table. Other posters have indeed made it all about the table.

    You wrote:

    The bloodline spells are one of those "other benefits" you don't get.

    There is a specific table of spell know and separate benefit based on increasing your bloodline level, something that arcane trickster don't do.

    So if PrCs don't advance class abilities/features, why do you think the "Spells" class ability/feature is advanced when it isn't mentioned?

    Quote:
    the Spell feature. The feature that you get with the prestige classes.

    Where is that stated?

    Liberty's Edge

    Quandary wrote:
    So if PrCs don't advance class abilities/features, why do you think the "Spells" class ability/feature is advanced when it isn't mentioned?

    As a side note, the cure spell listing is worded significantly different than mystery spells. Cure is worded:

    Quote:
    In addition to the spells gained by oracles as they gain levels, each oracle also adds all of either the cure spells or the inflict spells to her list of spells known (cure spells include all spells with “cure” in the name, inflict spells include all spells with “inflict” in the name). These spells are added as soon as the oracle is capable of casting them. This choice is made when the oracle gains her first level and cannot be changed.

    The important thing to note here is the line:

    These spells are added as soon as the oracle is capable of casting them.

    You're not gaining them as spells known because you gain spells known, you gain them because you have a rule on your character that says you learn a cure (or inflict spell) as soon as you are capable of casting it. A prestige class that advanced casting but not spells known (like if the higher level slots were only for metamagic'd low level spells) would still grant cure spells (or inflict spells) if oracle was your base class when you gained the slots to cast them.

    Saying "you get what it says under spells, because it is under spells" amounts to mechanically the same thing, and saves having to type out a long explanation.

    IMO at least.

    And the important part of the post:

    Keep clicking the FAQ button. . .

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