Improving and Customizing Implements


Thaumaturge Class


3 people marked this as a favorite.

The Implements as they are are incredibly flavorful, but do have a couple of weird little incongruencies and opportunities for improvement.

Right now, only half of the implements interact with the other core feature of the class.

- Amulet and Weapon require FF/EA to be active
- Lantern gives an indirect bonus to using FF/EA
- Wand and Chalice don't care about FF/EA at all

This feels rather strange, like if half the Barbarian Instincts didn't care about Rage or if half the Hunter's Edges didn't care about Hunt Prey. My ideal for this would be all Implements are usable without FF/EA, but gain a bonus when they are active. Fixing the wand would be simple, just let it gain bonus damage from FF/EA. The Chalice might be a bit harder, but I have faith in the designers to come up with something satisfying.

In addition, the Implements could use a bit of extra customization to fit different characters in the form of open-ended feats that allow multiple options but take up little space by referencing existing material. Examples can include:

- A feat for your weapon that gives it a free property rune like the Paladin's Blade Ally
- A feat for your amulet that gives it a free armor property rune
- A feat for your wand that lets you choose a spell of X level or lower and cast it using the wand Y times per day
- A feat for your chalice that lets you fill it with a potion of X level or lower and grant the potions effect when drunk Y times per day

This way, Character A can make their Weapon Implement found at the bottom of a frozen lake feel different from Character B's Weapon Implement that was plucked from the forge too soon and burned a blacksmith's hand.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

I think that the implements should interact with FF and EA, but I also think that they could have additional passives for things outside of combat.

- Amulet: Maybe it gives a +1 to saves of a tradition you pick each day and against haunts.

- Chalice: You get a +1 to Medicine checks and can use the Chalice in place of healer’s tools with the target gaining additional health as if they had drained the chalice.

- Lantern: I love the lantern as is.

- Wand: Maybe it can Detect Magic for you.

- Weapon: First, I think that the reaction could be nerfed a bit, but maybe it could be the only implement where you don’t need a free hand.

I really like the concept of the implements, but feel they lack a bit of versatility.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

I agree that Implements should do something without FF/EA, and should do something more with FF/EA. But figuring out this might be a tricky problem.

Like your specific magically significant amulet should always do something without looking closely at the opposition, and your specifically magically significant chalice should do something when you've figured out the opposition.


PossibleCabbage wrote:

I agree that Implements should do something without FF/EA, and should do something more with FF/EA. But figuring out this might be a tricky problem.

Like your specific magically significant amulet should always do something without looking closely at the opposition, and your specifically magically significant chalice should do something when you've figured out the opposition.

Right now the Chalice and Lantern seem to be the hard ones to figure something out for out of the Implements we know.

One idea for Chalice I've had is to have it apply a defensive buff against the target of FF/EA. Another is to let it poison the FF/EA target under the logic of "what can give life can also take it"

As for the Lantern, while it passively improves FF/EA by buffing Recall Knowledge checks, there's existing contention against FF/EA using Recall Knowledge to begin with (of which I agree that RK as part of it is weird). What it could gain is the ability to blind an FF/EA target, or it could instead let you counteract effects that are currently active on the target.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Golurkcanfly wrote:
PossibleCabbage wrote:

I agree that Implements should do something without FF/EA, and should do something more with FF/EA. But figuring out this might be a tricky problem.

Like your specific magically significant amulet should always do something without looking closely at the opposition, and your specifically magically significant chalice should do something when you've figured out the opposition.

Right now the Chalice and Lantern seem to be the hard ones to figure something out for out of the Implements we know.

One idea for Chalice I've had is to have it apply a defensive buff against the target of FF/EA. Another is to let it poison the FF/EA target under the logic of "what can give life can also take it"

As for the Lantern, while it passively improves FF/EA by buffing Recall Knowledge checks, there's existing contention against FF/EA using Recall Knowledge to begin with (of which I agree that RK as part of it is weird). What it could gain is the ability to blind an FF/EA target, or it could instead let you counteract effects that are currently active on the target.

I like your suggestion for the lantern and the chalice.

Specifically for the chalice, you could add a 3rd option called Fill. You could target an Identified target with Fill forcing a Fort save and take X damage, but on a failure the chalice could be drained again.

Maybe the lantern could have a Dazzling or Fascinating effect on targets affected by EA.


Firebeard92 wrote:
Golurkcanfly wrote:
PossibleCabbage wrote:

I agree that Implements should do something without FF/EA, and should do something more with FF/EA. But figuring out this might be a tricky problem.

Like your specific magically significant amulet should always do something without looking closely at the opposition, and your specifically magically significant chalice should do something when you've figured out the opposition.

Right now the Chalice and Lantern seem to be the hard ones to figure something out for out of the Implements we know.

One idea for Chalice I've had is to have it apply a defensive buff against the target of FF/EA. Another is to let it poison the FF/EA target under the logic of "what can give life can also take it"

As for the Lantern, while it passively improves FF/EA by buffing Recall Knowledge checks, there's existing contention against FF/EA using Recall Knowledge to begin with (of which I agree that RK as part of it is weird). What it could gain is the ability to blind an FF/EA target, or it could instead let you counteract effects that are currently active on the target.

I like your suggestion for the lantern and the chalice.

Specifically for the chalice, you could add a 3rd option called Fill. You could target an Identified target with Fill forcing a Fort save and take X damage, but on a failure the chalice could be drained again.

Maybe the lantern could have a Dazzling or Fascinating effect on targets affected by EA.

I really like that idea. Could be flavored as draining the life essence of a creature for most stuff, but for the current Adept benefit (Which really wants a Blood Flavor) it could be literal blood.

Maybe have it explicitly be a Negative Energy effect as well? Would be kinda weird to "drain life" against a zombie.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Golurkcanfly wrote:

I really like that idea. Could be flavored as draining the life essence of a creature for most stuff, but for the current Adept benefit (Which really wants a Blood Flavor) it could be literal blood.

Maybe have it explicitly be a Negative Energy effect as well? Would be kinda weird to "drain life" against a zombie.

That could work. Perhaps have it as a 2 action ability that deals 1d4 negative damage and increasing by 1d4 every odd level afterwards. With the ability only able to be done once the Chalice is drained. Basic Fortitude save and filling the chalice on a failure.


Firebeard92 wrote:
Golurkcanfly wrote:

I really like that idea. Could be flavored as draining the life essence of a creature for most stuff, but for the current Adept benefit (Which really wants a Blood Flavor) it could be literal blood.

Maybe have it explicitly be a Negative Energy effect as well? Would be kinda weird to "drain life" against a zombie.

That could work. Perhaps have it as a 2 action ability that deals 1d4 negative damage and increasing by 1d4 every odd level afterwards. With the ability only able to be done once the Chalice is drained. Basic Fortitude save and filling the chalice on a failure.

Sound good.

Though might be stealing a bit of the Wand's thunder, though the Wand needs improvements to begin with (why it doesn't get extra damage from EA is beyond me).


So the implements are categorized as active, reactive, and passive. I would love to see implement enhancing feats, but I feel goodies should follow these themes, like:

Amulet: get a +1 status bonus on saves from you EA target when you use your reaction

Chalice: you can give yourself a small amount of persistent bleed damage to refill the chalice as an action

Lanturn: lower the flat check DC to strike your EA when they are hidden, ignore the check when they are concealed

Wand: fling magic procs EA or you can fuse your implement with a magic wand and cast the contained spell without making a trick magic item roll using you thaumaturge class prof

Weapon: idk, this is already a strong reaction, maybe frightened 1 on a hit with the reaction


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Golurkcanfly wrote:
Firebeard92 wrote:
Golurkcanfly wrote:

I really like that idea. Could be flavored as draining the life essence of a creature for most stuff, but for the current Adept benefit (Which really wants a Blood Flavor) it could be literal blood.

Maybe have it explicitly be a Negative Energy effect as well? Would be kinda weird to "drain life" against a zombie.

That could work. Perhaps have it as a 2 action ability that deals 1d4 negative damage and increasing by 1d4 every odd level afterwards. With the ability only able to be done once the Chalice is drained. Basic Fortitude save and filling the chalice on a failure.

Sound good.

Though might be stealing a bit of the Wand's thunder, though the Wand needs improvements to begin with (why it doesn't get extra damage from EA is beyond me).

I like the wand’s current ability, but not on its own. It should have some kind of utility on top of the damage. Detect Magic at the least. I think it could also be used to cast a spell a day or something along those lines as it is improved.

Elsewhere, I have suggested being able to change the wand’s damage type by taking 10 minutes at initial, an action (maybe 2) at adept, and a free action at paragon while increasing its damage to d6s and Detect Magic as well. For the Thaumaturge to be a very magical oriented class, it lacks ways to find magic.


Alchemic_Genius wrote:

So the implements are categorized as active, reactive, and passive. I would love to see implement enhancing feats, but I feel goodies should follow these themes, like:

Amulet: get a +1 status bonus on saves from you EA target when you use your reaction

Chalice: you can give yourself a small amount of persistent bleed damage to refill the chalice as an action

Lanturn: lower the flat check DC to strike your EA when they are hidden, ignore the check when they are concealed

Wand: fling magic procs EA or you can fuse your implement with a magic wand and cast the contained spell without making a trick magic item roll using you thaumaturge class prof

Weapon: idk, this is already a strong reaction, maybe frightened 1 on a hit with the reaction

Weapon and Amulet already only work against your EA target, so they should be getting an effect against stuff that isn't the EA target.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Golurkcanfly wrote:
Alchemic_Genius wrote:

So the implements are categorized as active, reactive, and passive. I would love to see implement enhancing feats, but I feel goodies should follow these themes, like:

Amulet: get a +1 status bonus on saves from you EA target when you use your reaction

Chalice: you can give yourself a small amount of persistent bleed damage to refill the chalice as an action

Lanturn: lower the flat check DC to strike your EA when they are hidden, ignore the check when they are concealed

Wand: fling magic procs EA or you can fuse your implement with a magic wand and cast the contained spell without making a trick magic item roll using you thaumaturge class prof

Weapon: idk, this is already a strong reaction, maybe frightened 1 on a hit with the reaction

Weapon and Amulet already only work against your EA target, so they should be getting an effect against stuff that isn't the EA target.

Maybe the Amulet grants a bonus to saves against spells of a specific tradition that can be selected each day?

I think the weapon passive could be that you wouldn’t need a hand free to wave an implement around since it is the implement. This would open up more weapon options and allow shield Thaumaturges to exist.


I disagree they all need passives; its very intentional that 3 provide actions, 3 provide reactions, and 3 provide passives. Any enhancments should enhance the type of benefit they provide or be the same type of benefit


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Alchemic_Genius wrote:
I disagree they all need passives; its very intentional that 3 provide actions, 3 provide reactions, and 3 provide passives. Any enhancments should enhance the type of benefit they provide or be the same type of benefit

I also agree that mixing the types is strange, but I do think having all three types of effects be enhanced by FF/EA is possible, and would help the current design feel more cohesive rather than two ideas pulling against each other.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Golurkcanfly wrote:
Alchemic_Genius wrote:
I disagree they all need passives; its very intentional that 3 provide actions, 3 provide reactions, and 3 provide passives. Any enhancments should enhance the type of benefit they provide or be the same type of benefit
I also agree that mixing the types is strange, but I do think having all three types of effects be enhanced by FF/EA is possible, and would help the current design feel more cohesive rather than two ideas pulling against each other.

I agree. I think that each should have a benefit for EA targets and something for when they don’t have an EA target. This leads to each having a Passive and an active OR reactive benefit. That works out the best IMO at least.


Firebeard92 wrote:
Golurkcanfly wrote:
Alchemic_Genius wrote:
I disagree they all need passives; its very intentional that 3 provide actions, 3 provide reactions, and 3 provide passives. Any enhancments should enhance the type of benefit they provide or be the same type of benefit
I also agree that mixing the types is strange, but I do think having all three types of effects be enhanced by FF/EA is possible, and would help the current design feel more cohesive rather than two ideas pulling against each other.
I agree. I think that each should have a benefit for EA targets and something for when they don’t have an EA target. This leads to each having a Passive and an active OR reactive benefit. That works out the best IMO at least.

While I do think that would be neat, the current plan seems to be Three Active, Three Reactive, and Three Passive according to a post by Mark Seifter, so I'm not sure it would fit in the planned design space.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Golurkcanfly wrote:

While I do think that would be neat, the current plan seems to be Three Active, Three Reactive, and Three Passive according to a post by Mark Seifter, so I'm not sure it would fit in the planned design space.

Dang. I hadn’t seen that post. It makes sense, but I do find it a little disappointing. At least with the options we have now. Some are obviously better than others.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

While that is the current design plan, the whole point of a playtest is to find out what the players like. I say if this is an idea you like voice it.

I really like the idea of the implements all having an active or reactive component. 'Getting' passive boosts is great 'choosing' passive boosts is boring imo. None of my players have chose the class feats that grant bonuses to saves or checks. My guess being they're not as exciting as the other options. Admittedly, thats just my table and my opinion.


Mutty06 wrote:

While that is the current design plan, the whole point of a playtest is to find out what the players like. I say if this is an idea you like voice it.

I really like the idea of the implements all having an active or reactive component. 'Getting' passive boosts is great 'choosing' passive boosts is boring imo. None of my players have chose the class feats that grant bonuses to saves or checks. My guess being they're not as exciting as the other options. Admittedly, thats just my table and my opinion.

I do like having them all have activated abilities, but that's mainly in conjunction with customization stuff. There's a lot you could do with various Implements to open them up that could give activated abilities as an option. Though we only have 1 passive implement at the moment, so we have no idea what the future ones could be like.


If we look at the Occultist, the Occultist got both passive (resonant) bonuses from implements and active (base focus power) options.

The Thaumaturge also has some impetus for "investing a lot of items" and the whole resonance/investiture system way back from the playtest was inspired by the occultist, so what if investing in your implements had some sort of resonant effect?

Like thematically implements are mundane seeming items that the thaumaturge notices the mystical significance of, while investiture is "you're empowering the item with some of your intrinsic magic" so I don't know why these things shouldn't *ahem* resonate.


I think you could potentially apply a tag to each implement category, then feats that apply to any "Active" implement, or allow a "Passive" implement of any type to do something.

Page space and complexity are probably concerns, but I think if these are going to be one-and-done then they either need to have that page space devoted to a bit of customization or be modular from the start to make it easy for adjustments to be made with future products. It's a full class, and I'd want the same future-proofing that something like Fighter or even Barbarian has.

For example, I think giving the wand implement a fully active, 1-to-3 action activity would be a big boost to the class' overall versatility; a 1-action ranged strike, a 2-action cone or line, and a 3-action emanation (with the latter two having maybe a cooldown) would be a big boost to how people approach building a Thaumaturge. Do you take wand to start, to have a bit of versatility against groups? Or do you wait and stick with a weapon for AoO or an amulet for some defense during the squishy early levels? Right now wand is just a single-target save attack. It doesn't really change or advance its character, except to do the same thing but more.


I think if Paizo's going to grant so much page space to Implements, they'll also need to make Implements more important for the class. For most of the time you use two w/ minor impact on play. I understand how they want three as the target number due to Rule of Three, but why not earlier especially since beginning a new Implement gives you an ability way below your level anyway?

And then have feat options to boost up your lesser Implements (though likely not before your current highest tier). I suspect they already have this planned, but don't need to test it so much as the granted abilities themselves. It's not too crazy to think a level 16/18/20 feat could give somebody the highest tier of a secondary Implement (or at least the middle tier!).

---
Separately I'd dislike Implements having to rely on Find Flaw/EA overmuch. That's already a clunky mechanic, and single target at that. IMO it kind of ruins the Weapon Implement's ability and the theme of the class when the item doesn't actually have any special power unless you build up a connection to an enemy. I'd much rather it did something cool before that link exists.
Synergy would be nice. So maybe Passive (not held), Active (held), and FF/EA for a touch more though that might end up being minutiae at a certain point, not stacking w/ much of much else the party's got going.


Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path Subscriber
Castilliano wrote:

And then have feat options to boost up your lesser Implements (though likely not before your current highest tier). I suspect they already have this planned, but don't need to test it so much as the granted abilities themselves. It's not too crazy to think a level 16/18/20 feat could give somebody the highest tier of a secondary Implement (or at least the middle tier!).

Intense Implements, level 18 feat.


3 people marked this as a favorite.

I like the wand, thematically. It's basically a cantrip that uses your class dc instead of a proper spell dc, it definitely should benefit from EA, although it probably won't do as much damage, especially if that persistent damage effect stays. It could be a convenient low damage ranged cantrip that can target any weakness. Would make it much more versatile and flavorful. An everything wand. Your forced weakness ability could lead to some interesting explanations of what exactly is coming out of your wand.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
AnimatedPaper wrote:
Castilliano wrote:

And then have feat options to boost up your lesser Implements (though likely not before your current highest tier). I suspect they already have this planned, but don't need to test it so much as the granted abilities themselves. It's not too crazy to think a level 16/18/20 feat could give somebody the highest tier of a secondary Implement (or at least the middle tier!).

Intense Implements, level 18 feat.

My bad for missing that, though I'll still roll my eyes when comparing an Adept benefit that to other class's level 18 abilities.

By 20, it seems a Thaumaturge should be able (perhaps w/ four feats, w/ Intense Implements being a mid-game feat & a bigger cousin at 18/20) to hit full power with all three Implements, it being level 20 and all.


Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path Subscriber
aobst128 wrote:
I like the wand, thematically. It's basically a cantrip that uses your class dc instead of a proper spell dc, it definitely should benefit from EA, although it probably won't do as much damage, especially if that persistent damage effect stays. It could be a convenient low damage ranged cantrip that can target any weakness. Would make it much more versatile and flavorful. An everything wand. Your forced weakness ability could lead to some interesting explanations of what exactly is coming out of your wand.

I really like this idea, and would even go as far as to say I'd like the wand modified to deal magical physical damage (still with a Ref save) to make it as unlike current cantrips as possible. Let it still hit EA, and the paragon benefits could be revised to be tied to slashing, piercing, and bludgeoning respectively. Or even just let you choose one when you get the paragon benefit.

Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder Second Edition / Dark Archive Playtest / Thaumaturge Class / Improving and Customizing Implements All Messageboards