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I don’t think that Gathering an Element in each hand should be a stance. Nearly every elemental power based character I can think of does this naturally. Is having the action cost to Gather twice not enough of a cost?

Allowing Dual gates and universal gates to do so early lends itself to the fantasy. Additionally, those can (and should imo) fill the “dual wielding” role of the class.

If they Gather the same element in both hands, that should be the “two handed” role and increase the damage. That could be done by increasing the die size. I do think that dedicated gates blasts should pack a bit more of a punch than the other gates’ blasts since they lack versatility, but that could be done by a flat bonus to damage. Alternatively or in addition to, allow dedicated to Gather in both hands for a single action.

I think each element having an associated skill that you become trained in would help the skill side of the kineticist. Maybe they could get a +1 for that skill while they have the Element Gathered.

I was thinking of something more universal.

Something that could let us add con to damage.

Like if blast's didn't require us to gather but if when gathered we had half con to damage on blast's and overflow deals full con mod to damage.

I can get behind that. However, I do think that dedicated gates should gain some additional benefit since they lack the versatility of the others (particularly fire, since idk what alternate damage type it could have).

I was thinking of something more universal.

Something that could let us add con to damage.

Like if blast's didn't require us to gather but if when gathered we had half con to damage on blast's and overflow deals full con mod to damage.

I can get behind that. However, I do think that dedicated gates should gain some additional benefit since they lack the versatility of the others (particularly fire, since idk what alternate damage type it could have).

That supposes the ranged options are balanced the way they are because the melee options exist. Don't really see any evidence of that though.

If you think the range options are too weak, you can just say that on its own without talking about making melee builds worse.

That’s been my point for this whole post. Simplify the blast stats by making them all ranged and increasing their power. Elemental Weapon becomes able to create other melee weapon besides one handed and that becomes the melee option.

Personally I'd be quite upset if I was forced into a feat tax just to melee with this class.

You already are though, in a way. The only penalty for ranged attacks in melee is that they provoke attacks of opportunity. Currently, Elemental Blast does this even if it is melee. The only way to get around it is with the Elemental Weapon feat.

I also kind of seeing it mirroring the monk in a sense. They have to take feats for access to ranged options with their core feature FOB. Taking feats to do melee for the Kineticist seems fine to me in that sense.

If they keep the melee ranged split options like they are now, the ranged options need to be stronger than their current state. 2d4 with no modifier for air until level 7 is ridiculous. The others aren’t much better, which isn’t fun, especially when the majority of people’s fantasy for this type of class is very much range focused.

I don’t think flurry rangers should get access to agile ranged attacks that work with their ranged weapon feats.

It doesn’t look like it would since the Hunted Shot requires you to be wielding a ranged weapon. Unless Gathering and Element means you’re wielding a weapon, then it wouldn’t. Which I would lean towards it not counting.

Firebeard92 wrote:

Martialmasters wrote:

I have to imagine there is a way to.

1- not have blast's proc attack of opportunity

2- not have blast's be considered strikes eligible for furry.

But my argument was more about someone taking a kineticist dedication and being better at blast's than them. Similar to how by level ten. Most martials that took the monk dedication become better at flurry of blows them them.

My argument was not about kineticist taking monk dedication and using flurry of blows really. Though then then it's annoying that that's basically, likely, a better single Target use it their time and action economy then fusion blast or anything they can do.

Man I really wish flurry of blows had stayed monk centric.

A simple solution that I mentioned earlier is to just have the blasts be in their own weapon group, while mentioning that they still get bonuses from handwraps. It really is that simple, I think.

Personally, however, I think that the basic blasts should be ranged only. To simplify the stats of them. If they want a melee option they can take the Elemental Weapon feat, but have it changed to be more than just one handed weapons.

That would fix the FOB conundrum but open it up for other multiclass poaching like point blank shot if they're ranged weapons rather than unarmed attacks. Not as big of a deal but maybe not ideal.

I don’t think that’s a problem at all. Everybody multiclasses to get something and being a ranged martial with blasts sounds dope. Obviously they will be good with them, but they won’t have the utility of all the other kineticist abilities without heavy investment, which is what multi class stuff is all about.

I have to imagine there is a way to.

1- not have blast's proc attack of opportunity

2- not have blast's be considered strikes eligible for furry.

But my argument was more about someone taking a kineticist dedication and being better at blast's than them. Similar to how by level ten. Most martials that took the monk dedication become better at flurry of blows them them.

My argument was not about kineticist taking monk dedication and using flurry of blows really. Though then then it's annoying that that's basically, likely, a better single Target use it their time and action economy then fusion blast or anything they can do.

Man I really wish flurry of blows had stayed monk centric.

A simple solution that I mentioned earlier is to just have the blasts be in their own weapon group, while mentioning that they still get bonuses from handwraps. It really is that simple, I think.

Personally, however, I think that the basic blasts should be ranged only. To simplify the stats of them. If they want a melee option they can take the Elemental Weapon feat, but have it changed to be more than just one handed weapons.

I don't know about making them regular attacks. It would certainly make it simpler for kineticist but if you could get these attacks through multiclassing, monks have something that outclasses wild winds at level 2. I'd rather not have to nerf the dedication to prevent that. As it stands, it would still be very good for strength monks to have a ranged option even if they can't flurry with it.

Then make them regular attacks, but not unarmed strikes. Have them be a new “weapon” group called blasts and keep the bit about them being improved via hand wraps. This would allow them to block it from being used in Flurry of Blows as well as making it an option to allow a proficiency progression faster for the Kineticist if they decide to go that route. (I’ve seen people suggest they get legendary proficiency with their blasts, not sure how I personally feel about it, but it is an opinion that’s out there.)

They may have to tweak the critical specialization for it, since each has different abilities currently. However, that could be handled pretty easily I believe.

So, as many have noticed, the elemental blast feature is a bit wordy and basically comes out to them being unarmed attacks that are not actually unarmed attacks. Also, they each have two stat blocks to represent a melee and ranged version. I appreciate the intent of this, but it seems to me that this could be simplified a fair amount.

My first suggestion is to simply use one stat block and have them all be ranged unarmed attacks. Ranged attacks already provoke attacks of opportunity, which the melee versions currently do anyway due to them being Impulse abilities. These are blasts and that makes me think ranged anyway.

Second suggestion, give the blast attacks the Impulse trait as a weapon trait. Meaning it can only be used after Gathering an Element and allows Con to be used for the attack roll. As for other traits; allow earth and water to keep forceful and sweep respectively; add propulsive to all blasts, while bumping earth to a d10 so that it can maintain the damage over the others. Additionally, I think air could be bumped up to a d6 with range dropped to 90' range and be fine.

Third, alter the Flexible Blasts feat to be a feat that grants extra traits to various blasts so that they can expand their utility. Air getting Versatile (electricity), Fire getting Deadly or Scatter, Earth getting Shove or Parry, and Water getting Versatile (cold) or Trip.

This sets Gather Element as an action similar to entering a stance to gain the associated unarmed strike through the Impulse trait. Which they can then use their key ability for on their attack rolls. This also boosts the damage output for the class's primary offensive ability and provides a way to extend the options for the blasts via Flexible Blasts.

Firebeard92 wrote:

Golurkcanfly wrote:

I really like that idea. Could be flavored as draining the life essence of a creature for most stuff, but for the current Adept benefit (Which really wants a Blood Flavor) it could be literal blood.

Maybe have it explicitly be a Negative Energy effect as well? Would be kinda weird to "drain life" against a zombie.

That could work. Perhaps have it as a 2 action ability that deals 1d4 negative damage and increasing by 1d4 every odd level afterwards. With the ability only able to be done once the Chalice is drained. Basic Fortitude save and filling the chalice on a failure.

Sound good.

Though might be stealing a bit of the Wand's thunder, though the Wand needs improvements to begin with (why it doesn't get extra damage from EA is beyond me).

I like the wand’s current ability, but not on its own. It should have some kind of utility on top of the damage. Detect Magic at the least. I think it could also be used to cast a spell a day or something along those lines as it is improved.

Elsewhere, I have suggested being able to change the wand’s damage type by taking 10 minutes at initial, an action (maybe 2) at adept, and a free action at paragon while increasing its damage to d6s and Detect Magic as well. For the Thaumaturge to be a very magical oriented class, it lacks ways to find magic.

I think that the implements should interact with FF and EA, but I also think that they could have additional passives for things outside of combat.

- Amulet: Maybe it gives a +1 to saves of a tradition you pick each day and against haunts.

- Chalice: You get a +1 to Medicine checks and can use the Chalice in place of healer’s tools with the target gaining additional health as if they had drained the chalice.

- Lantern: I love the lantern as is.

- Wand: Maybe it can Detect Magic for you.

- Weapon: First, I think that the reaction could be nerfed a bit, but maybe it could be the only implement where you don’t need a free hand.

I really like the concept of the implements, but feel they lack a bit of versatility.