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Twilight2k wrote:

Really? Boutique outlets? Some of the largest European publishers give free pdfs with all physical book purchases (from their web store - I don't think any do it everywhere). 1-2 books in a product line per year is irrelevant when they operate close to a dozen product lines.

Like?

I've picked up PDFs for various Gumshoe products from Pelgrane Press. They are in the UK, but that is close enough to European for me.

I've used Bits and Mortar to get PDFs from Chaosium. And I think Evil Hat does that too. Both of them are in the US. I like this because it helps support my FLGS and still gives me an electronic copy.

I think PDF with hardcopy is the norm except for Paizo and WotC.

My takeaway is that Taldane is the only nationwide language of Brevoy. Hallit, Iobarian and Skald are used with some regularity. Varisian, Draconic, and whatnot are used, but in small, scattered pockets.

Does this seem like the consensus?

Brevoy has plenty of Iobarians, so I imagine their language would be spoken there as well.

Does Iobaria have a regional language? I thought most of the humans on the north coast spoke Skald (Ulfen) and in the interior they spoke Hallit (Kellids).

In addition to the ubiquitous Taldane (which the arrogant people of Taldor call "Common"), what else is spoken there? I figured the north (Issia) has some Skald because of the Ulfen. But what about in Rostland? I had thought that they were ancestrally Kellid with a lot of trappings from Taldor (such as "Common"). If I'm right, then the more remote villages would still be likely to speak Hallit.

This has been my working assumption for years. I started a Rostlander in Hero Lab Online and it says

Characters from Brevoy gain access to the regional languages Skald and Varisian when choosing languages.

I was surprised to see Varisian. I can imagine a few villages here and there, but I'm surprised to see it listed above Hallit. Looking it up in the pathfinder wiki I see

Having received waves of migration from all over Avistan, the people of Brevoy speak a large number of languages, depending on their own ethnicity. These include Hallit, Skald, Varisian, and of course the common language of that part of the world, Taldane. Strangely, a significant minority of people also speak Draconic, which is quite unusual for non-dragons to be conversant in.

So, what is the traditional language for the peasants of Rostland? If there is a group of Rostlanders who want to split Brevoy and go back to the glory days of "free Rostland", what language are they most likely to speak?

Etiquette question: If an Internet Rando (someone outside your geographical area and having no personal connection to the local Lodge) signs up to a full game, is that viewed positively ("Oh, cool, someone found our Lodge!") or negatively ("They're taking a space from one of us!")?

I explicitly tell the GM that I'm an interloper and I will drop if there are locals on the wait list. My goal is to grab an open seat, not to displace anyone. So far I've played 3 out of 3 times, so it has been a safe bet ;-)

Dumb question: The conclusion says that "In gratitude for their service, Valsin presents the PCs with an archaic wayfinder". That sounds like a free gimme. But the sheet says it costs 25 GP, which is closer to what I would expect. So, really this is just a 5 GP discount?

Currently, Quests 1,4, and 9 are repeatable.

if they stick to the pattern, #16 will be the next repeatable quest.

PFS2 character creation covers all the creation rules. I think that mentioned.

You've just unwittingly aided the band of assassins and murdered the carriage's only guard, ultimately leading to their targets' demise, and possibly yours as well. Even if you survive the encounter, you will have been responsible for a young noble's death, and quite possibly branded a criminal.

As-is, that is going down a dark path, and sounds like no fun. My immediate reaction would be to call out the GM and ask where this game was going, and verify that I wanted to play it. My RPG time is too limited to squander on nonsense.

Tweak it a bit and it would be a good intro to a "The Fugitive" type scenario. Instead of them killing the guards, the PCs disrupt the defense, and accidentally allow the bad guys to win. Then from there they have to bring justice to the assassins while not being arrested. That sounds more like a story worth my time.

I don't mind the GM "tricking" the players as long as it is setting up something interesting. Think of it as exposition, but with some player involvement. But this sort of thing has to be infrequent. People play RPGs to have input/agency, not to be be told that they got things wrong.

I imagine the Order of the Chain goes wherever fugitives do. Local jurisdiction is mostly meaningless, although if the local cops have arrested said fugitive, all is right in the world. Likewise, I think there are valid reasons for many of the orders to send knights to foreign countries. The rule of law transcends borders.

So, it is clear that they mostly operate in Cheliax, Isger, and Korvosa, they can be anywhere. Since quite a few went to Mendev to fight the demons of the world wound, I wonder if they have some chapter houses up north. They can still fight demons and trample the locals traditions.

Still I have the sensation that we are losing something (in relation to PF1) in every single class progression, not only in nerfed classes. If I wanted to make a characters with the same features as in PF1 (not speaking of power, just of features) I wouldn't be able to do so in this edition.

That isn't my impression. What is an example of a character concept that you could build with pre-APG PF1 that you cannot build properly with PF2?

Hellknights have very strict rules, and they follow those rules to the letter, regardless of local laws. Generally local laws do not conflict with order structures, so there are no problems. By nature, they follow all rules even if they don't respect the local government.

The Order of the Torrent is lawful good and focused on freeing kidnap victims. If that means breaking into a jail, then so be it. If the local government is involved, then they will be treated as part of the problem.

Likewise, if the Order of the Nail decided that some local practice is preventing growth of civilization and society, then they will fight it. If that is Cheliax, Molthune, or wherever the order will do whatever is necessary. Preferably using the local government, but that is not required.

He gets replaced by 3 halfling sorcerers in a trenchcoat.

Are you sure it wasn't three gnomes? In the run up to the P2 launch, Ryan from Know Direction wrote up the middle gnome from a trenchcoat trio. Kinda cool way to show off the new system.

For Southern Casmaron look into the Kelesh Empire. Its western most province is Quadira, which is in the inner sea region. You can start with https://pathfinderwiki.com/wiki/Kelesh.

Then why do Backgrounds exist at all?

I think it is for two reasons. The first is a list of easy to understand concepts is less daunting than "build your own." The other is that if they introduce special backgrounds that have bonus skill feats, general feats or whatever, this mechanism is a bit more future proof. "Here, use this background as-is" doesn't require explaining deviations from the normal rules.

Had I designed PF2, I'm not sure if I would have gone with backgrounds, or just free form choices like you want. But I didn't, and this is fine.

I have used the custom background editor in pathbuilder2 to (re)build a beloved 3.5 character that I never was able to get quite right a decade ago. None of the existing backgrounds were exactly what I wanted, although "noble" was close and would have worked.

Not really. But you still have the issue of fitting. Getting centaurs up the stairs then to sneak across the roof to drop on the enemy from behind will still be difficult. And likely humorous.

The problem with basing more conflict on order v. chaos instead of good v. evil is that players in general will always avoid being too constrained by rules and laws in game, even if they're completely good guys. Seems most folks feel restrained enough by order in real life that they'd like to try some more free-spirited gaming.

Perhaps for casual gaming. I like Cheliax and how its sense of unity itand destiny have been corrupted by hell. This is playing with subtleties on the lawful end of the alignment spectrum. For a while now that has been my thing

I haven't seen an interesting concept of true neutrality yet, unfortunately. A true champion of balance would have to be truly horrific from time to time to balance out the heroic acts involved in saving the world or whatever that happens in most APs. The three neutral deities in CRB (Nethys, Pharasma, and Gozreh) are all very different from each other.

The common thread for those three is the relative disregard for mortals. Magic, nature, and a well ordered life/death cycle are what is important. Basically a TN champion is dedicated to a cause that has little to do with people. Focusing on something like that seems a bit niche, but in sure someone somewhere will come up with a good story based using them.

Must we have pan-neutral champions? I want one champion group for each of the four alignments. We have good, so evil, law and chaos are what I want to see. And I think the corners have to pick. A LG champion in the Godclaw has to be the lawful variety, not the existing good one.

I read a lot of Michael Moorcock when I was a kid. I want more law vs chaos to balance out good vs evil.

That said, I don't mind a true neutral champion, but it should be distinct, not bundled with LN and CN. I still don't like how Faiths of Balance handled things. LN and CN have as much in common as NG and NE, but no one tries to lump those two together.

I think most Rahadoumi would like to be gods. Most folks have power fantasies. They might want to follow in Irori's footsteps, or maybe Nethys. And the starstone appeals to them as well. They just won't subjugate themselves to any divine overlord to get there.

Refusing to follow a god is not the same as opposing that god. An artist might be glad that Shelyn inspires works of art, and might even hope for inspiration, but won't actively ask for divine help. Some things are not worth the cost.

Any 20th level cleric can cast miracle. Would that make all of them candidates for sainthood?

I don't think of the familiar as being an independent creature, but as a projection of the witch. It has its own personality and free will, but it exists because of the witch. This is a bit like an Eidalon in reverse.

The first thing a patron teaches is how to create this being and how to bind it into an animal. The only spell a witch can prepare without a familiar is Bind Familiar. This means when a familiar is killed, the next day the witch prepares and casts Bind Familiar and is back in business. Finding a vessel (the right animal) is up to the witch. This could be tweaked for mirrors, crystals, etc.

This does nothing to stop the familiar from being so squishy, but it gets the familiar back on line more quickly. It does mean losing spells makes no sense.

What do folks think of lucky familiars? They always have Fortune for making saves, and attacks against them have Misfortune. It seems thematically right, and makes them tougher but not indestructible.

Initially I thought the witch should be able to access all four traditions, but I've come around to no divine witches. One of the cornerstones of witches is figuring things out. They are not granted powers, they are taught secrets and figure the rest out on thier own. That seems reasonable for arcane and occult. Primal is a bit more of a stretch, but OK. Divine is not self taught, even with a patron/mentor. Clerics, divine sorcerers, and oracles all do thier thing without understanding it. Totally different vibe.

The thing I really don't like about this is summoning demons and devils. Getting an imp or quasit to spy and cause mayhem feels right. If I remember summoning correctly, Summon Fiend is divine only. That means the Planar Binding ritual is how a non divine witch would have to do this. For some GMs, that won't be an issue. But for PFS, I expect it to be very rare. Summon Celestial is in the same boat, so Glynda cannot summon Archons either.

Would it make sense for the witch to have a class feat for summoning rituals? More generically, some mechanism to learn any ritual? Perhaps at the cost of fewer spells? I've never thought that standard spells were the bread and butter of this class.

That just makes the last focus point needlessly punishing to spend. I'm not a fan of the grit/panache 1+ stuff in 1e for the same reason. Anything that makes spending a resource more painful is bad - people already hold off on burning resources as is.

Agreed. I like cantrip hexes for weak, spam all day effects that are relatively small, plus focus hexes for the bigger stuff. I don't see any reason to limit the first because you have no mojo for the second.

I kinda like this. But it is a huge win for the witch. Wouldn't a single action to cast a spell break the action economy? Maybe it would be better to spend the actions normally, but the spells come from the familiar. Sensible witches will hide thier familiar on themselves (shirt pocket or whatever), but the risk takers can send it forward to engage the enemy at close range. Presumably the next round will be run and hide.

Panache Mode and Finishers are cool.

Agreed. And that would fit nicely in an archetype. Too bad that would mean no Confident Finish until 2nd level, if the Dedication even provided it.

My preference is towards fewer classes, so I have mixed feelings about this witch. I like the old witch better. As-is, it doesn't stand out, so I am not sure it deserves a class

To justify a full class, it shouldn't just be a spell caster. All hexes all day was the schtick, and I liked it. Some nerfing is fine. My main witch stopped using slumber because it was no fun. My second witch never took that hex.

I think I'd like fewer spells. That along with most hexes converted to cantrips would make the witch distinctly non wizard.

Overall I don't think the focus power mechanism feels witchy. Maybe for big stuff, but certainly not the basic hexes. And focus point cost with 24h immunity seems like a double whammy.

I think a focus spell to remove hex immunity for making a save would be good. Basically burn a point and two actions to gain the chance to try again. And perhaps a cackle variant that burns focus to sustain all active hexes.

Also I'd like a bigger tie in to rituals. Getting things done without spells feels right.

Finally I want to mention patrons. I lean towards keeping them vague. If you know who your daddy is, you are a cleric. I prefer The-Magic-Sword's approach #1 because I now *must* create a witch whose patron is the collective Godclaw. Hellknights and witches together is too awesome to pass up.

IF it had to be "not its own class" it could be an Archetype, which would be narritively interesting.

I think that investigator would be better off as an archetype. Just the essential abilities mixed in with any class. Making it a rogue racket could work, but that seems needlessly limiting. Wizard and alchemist seem investigator friendly.

I understand they want it for CSI:Absalom. Changing investigator to something other than a class could affect that AP. So I'm afraid that choice has already been made.

I guess I'm in the minority in that I don't think Asmodeus cares what your alignment is, and that includes divine spell casters too. Becoming a cleric of his means entering into a contract. As long as you fufill your end of the bargain, nothing else matters.

So, yes, I'm OK with paladins of Asmodeus. Sure, said paladin would be LAWFUL good and have Smite Chaos. So long as the mortal does as he is told, that mortal is an effective servant/slave. Perhaps one who can do things other servants cannot. But failure do as agreed means the punitive clauses in the contract will literally mean a living hell for the mortal.

Asmodeus worship isn't a religion based on love. It is all duty, obligations, and betrayal. Lots of Spock's Beard style promotion by getting superiors to screw up. Legalistic arguments about where the lines actually are would be common. "Lawyer Up" would be a class skill/skill feat for just about everyone.

I accept that this isn't the direction that the setting has taken. But it feels like some richness, subtlety, and moral ambiguity has been lost.

FWIW non evil worshippers will have trouble staying alive in the Church of Asmodeus, much less getting to positions of power. But if that is what a PC wants to try, sure

Agreed. I for one am tired of "neutral because society doesn't let me be evil" characters seeing how far they can push the boundaries and then complaining that good characters are the problem.

My Inquisitor of Asmodeus was trained to be LN specifically so he could operate outside of the Empire. He never did anything to jeopardize his position in the society, so he was squeeky clean. He never committed *any* evil acts. Ever. Well, just some minor mocking of Andoran (East Cheliax) and Halflings.

Personally I'm an old fart and I don't enjoy playing evil characters, but I do enjoy moral grey areas. This witch hunt to stop boundary pushing would prevent me from playing one of my favorite characters. Fortunately he is 14th level so I have a "been there, done that" attitude to this concept.

I don't have a solution to stop people from being dicks. But I want it to be clear that some concepts which are not problematic will now be illegal. Collateral damage is always unfortunate.

As the title.

I reviewed the proficiency scaling, and I thought it was strange that the baseline is now Level + 2, with it scaling up to Level + 8. I don't mind the scaling so much, but the baseline I feel will confuse players and might make them add things when they shouldn't. Or I might get players who ask "Why do we add +2 when we're trained," to which the only valid response I have is "The Devs wanted it that way."

Level+0 is the mod for untrained skills with the Untrained Improvisation feat. Feedback from the playtest said that folks wanted untrained to be less useful, so now you need a feat to get to Level+0.

Confirmed to be finished as of last night and on the final step before upload. :)

Where was this confirmation? Any place us unwashed masses can see? I feel like a kid at a candy store, but the store is padlocked.

Will regular rogues be able to do ranged ledgerdemain and impromptu sneak attack? I'm ok with regular rogues getting impromptu, but only a magical rogue (not necessarily arcane) should be able to disarm traps at 30'.

Bane could make you expert with the weapon and provide bonus dice. Greater Bane would be legendary with more dice. Likewise judgements could improve your save proficiencies, bump your skill level with weapons and/or armor. Fast Healing will still be a thing, right? I don't expect as-is for any crunch, but most of it can be translated.

I hope that the gish options (spell strike, arcane pool, bane, judgement, etc) are not tied to full classes, but rather are archetypes. Bane seems natural for divine and primal traditions, so it would be nice if a single archetype handled both.

The Citadel of Flame is a straight forward dungeon crawl. There is a little bit of non-combat, but only as a run up to fighting something.

I run the 12-18 year old game at the FLGS, and the biggest hit I had was with Mists of the Mwangi. I reskinned the gas to make the PCs impulsive. If you get hungry, you eat. If you get mad, you hit. They loved it and ended up having a souvenir collection of ears, and playing kickball with skulls. Not standard PFS, but the kids got into it.

But I will say I played a season 1 where my dwarf fighter literally didn't get to take a swing because of pets/eidolons.

Although off topic, I think any character which has companions, eidolons, summoned creatures, and so forth runs the risk of violating "don't be a jerk" if only because they have so many actions that they often end up hogging the camera. Even if the beasties are not overpowered, those players end up getting a larger slice of time/GM attention.

I agree with pretty much everyone in this thread. I play a number of games with my sons (12-15), and if they did something like that, I'd wipe them out. They would get a warning or three, and it sounds like you've already done that. So kill them all and say "I told you so." Then discuss it with them. Both why it is a bad idea, and review the hints that you gave.

And then it is time for new characters.

Are there any plans for boons for us GMs who don't attend conventions? Here in North Carolina there are only a few small conventions, and while I do GM at them, so far that has just meant the 3 race boon sheet. It strikes me as odd that I have gotten something for those 4 convention tables, but I've gotten nothing for any of the others. As I've earned 2 stars in the past year, I think I'm a reasonably active GM.

Is it that everyone else has to use conventions to play PFS, and we're just an exception to the rule? Last year we had a visiting V-L, and he told me he was surprised at the number of game store options that we have. There are 4 stores within 20 miles of my house that I know that run weekly PFS events, and I think they cover 5 days of the week. The store I frequent has to limit PFS to 3 tables because of space issues, but has kept up that pace fairly consistently every Friday for almost a year. If not 150 tables, it is pretty close to that many.

From the limited convention experience I have, I knew or had heard of almost everyone there. It is the same group of people who already played PFS at the game stores, just in a different setting. I hope recruitment isn't the motivation because I see more newbies at the stores, or the Teen PFS events I organize, than the conventions I've been to.

Are there any plans change any of this? Is the consensus that things are fine as they are? If there are plans to change things, what are those plans?

I'm certainly not a fan of too many races, but lots of people want variety. I had hoped that buying a hard copy of the APG would act as a "play a featured race boon". No photocopies or use of a PDF, so if you wanted a second one, shell out some more bucks. Likewise a real copy of "Kobolds of Golarion" has a "play one Kobold" boon page. While this isn't friendly to folks with a tight budget, if you really want to play a goblin, you can eventually scrape together enough for Goblins of Golarion.

Personally I find the whole Asian theme to more of a problem for "suspension of disbelief" than the monstrous and elemental races. The leaps of fantasy logic to justify a human ninja in Ustalav is worse than a tree hugging orc. Likewise for a drow PC: I don't want them to become routine, but I think that they're more thematically consistent around the Inner Sea than any kitsune or nagaji.

Lord Fyre wrote:

For example: what does the “Witch” add that would not be better served as an archetype of Druid or Wizard?

The fact remains that the Witch is a very, very different class from both the Druid and Wizard. If you describe it in a five word sentence, yes, it seems very similar (full caster with flavorful abilities) but in practice it's a completely separate beast, altogether.

Let's take your argument a step further. Why do we need barbarians and rangers and monks, or clerics and druids and wizards?

Well, because someone wants to play them.

The horse has left the barn a long time ago, but I wouldn't have minded only having 4 classes (Cleric, Fighter, Magic User and Thief). All the customizations could be done with archtypes or spending development points of some sort to buy class abilities. If someone works on DND 3.875 maybe that would be something for them to consider.