Okay, I need to get my players to stop resting as often. The players are young so I've cut them some slack in the past, but most have been playing for over a year and it just got absurd recently.
So they go into a dungeon and have a decent fight at the entrance(only a cleric, ranger, and fighter are present.)
Then they have an ABSURDLY long and drawn out fight with 2 mimics due to bad luck (Nearly the entire party is there EXCEPT for the fighter from earlier.)
And lastly they have a very difficult fight with twice the number of enemies that they should have because a player opened the door to the next room where more enemies were sleeping. (Only a summoner, a DIFFERENT fighter and the same cleric.)
I have no problem with them wanting to rest after this (especially the cleric who had been running on fumes keeping everybody up), but their is a large door ominously off the the side in an earlier area that the ignored and instead decided to sleep in the enemies beds before their bodies had even cooled.
I punished this by having them ambushed while the were resting. The enemies were weaker then what they had already fought but without spells, they had a hard time.
I though i had taught them NOT to just sleep in any random place...BUT THEY DID IT AGAIN!
They are close to the end of the dungeon, and have only had ONE fight from their last rest. The Big Bad of the area appears in a fire burning in the room and taunts them to come and get him through the UNLOCKED door (opens in towards his room). Their reaction...better sleep.
I just want him and his contingent of guards to ambush them while they sleep, but i also don't want to be a complete jerk to them.
Keep ambushing them with the minor mooks, and if they do it again have some other consequence happen, such as the BBEG leaves and puts his lieutenant in his place (who happens to have the same stats but is named differently and you make it clear that they'll have to face the real BBEG again).
Put them on a blue highway in Idaho.
I used to have horrible problems with this, so I feel for you. The cure was a TPK. They camped outside the BBEG's room after every previous attempt at camping in the dungeon had been met with monsters and malicious spells. So he waited until they were sleeping and killed them all. They stopped doing that after.
I'd start prompting them with Intelligence or Wisdom checks with a relatively low DC, or maybe Profession (soldier), knowledge (tactics) or something else that's applicable. If they succeed, prompt them with something like, "It occurs to you that it's probably not a good idea to go to sleep without knowing what's behind that door over there." or "This is an unsafe location, you might want to fortify the area or set up a watch rotation before you all fall asleep."
If they ignore you then...well, that's their own fault, and they can be ambushed guilt-free. There is no reason that the bad guys would just let them get away with this, and I have long felt that you shouldn't make the baddies dumb just because your players are.
I'm actually pretty flabbergasted that they would actually go to bed in an enemy stronghold, particularly without any precautions. What do they expect to happen, that nobody's gonna wander through that area for the next eight hours? People live here, guys. Would you go into an enemy military base, kill a few soldiers, then sleep in their bunks and just assume no one's gonna come check?
You say your players are young, how young? Kids might not understand your "subtle" hints. Tell them, "This is a REALLY bad idea". Then list the reasons why. Or you can always TPK them and then say it was all a dream.
How young is young?
They are close to the end of the dungeon, and have only had ONE fight from their last rest. The Big Bad of the area appears in a fire burning in the room and taunts them to come and get him through the UNLOCKED door (opens in towards his room). Their reaction...better sleep.
I just want him and his contingent of guards to ambush them while they sleep, but i also don't want to be a complete jerk to them.
The BBEG wouldn't wait for them to fall asleep. If after a few minutes they don't come in (he has taunted them) either he'd send his mooks in to the room to see what the heck is going on or he'd go in himself. The party should be just getting ready to sleep (removing armor, etc). They will have a choice: fight or run. If they fight, then let the dice fall where they may. If they run, have them chased out of the complex.
How long would you let a thief sit in your living room before you went down to find out what was up or called 911? Would you wait for the thief to fall asleep? Would you even assume that he would go to sleep?
Greg
You say your players are young, how young? Kids might not understand your "subtle" hints. Tell them, "This is a REALLY bad idea". Then list the reasons why. Or you can always TPK them and then say it was all a dream.
Most of the group is made up of 10-14 year olds, there are a few rotating members (one is a first grader who is the ONLY one who objected to going to sleep right next to the big boss)
I'm considering having the BBEG wait for the paladin to sleep (take off his armor and what not), he knows what is going on so it's freezable that he want's to just punish them for their insolence by waiting for their heavy armors to be stripped down. (he can see through the eyes of animals, I mainly had him spy on them to know what battle prep they did, but now, it justifies him knowing who's on watch and when.)
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Ok, that young. Have you told them what will happen. They are probably used to video games where you can rest just outside the last door and nothing happens. Just tell them.
I second Valandil. It doesn't hurt to have some out-of-character metagame discussion with your young players when that is their expectation.
Another factor is they don't know how "hardcore" a GM you are. Sounds like your tendency is to play things realistically, enemies as smart, and that you won't forgive stupid mistakes. I teach a Pathfinder class with middle schoolers and I've found that the strong tendency with kids that age is to either be oblivious or to consciously try to "get away" with something and, once you lay down the law, claim they "didn't know!" :D
So a good rule is to be very, very explicit! "Out-of-character" objections be damned... Some of them are metagaming ALREADY thinking you'll take off the gloves, so it's not like you're introducing it! :D
At first I thought this was in refrence to when a player falls asleep during the game.
Yeah deal with it out of game. Also...you could you know let them get away with it.
How old you compared to them?
Personaly if I was playing with a group this young it would be me teaching them the game. I would also...be alot more flexable so that they can have fun. But 'punishing' them in game will probably lead them to having no fun.
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I actually think 10-14 years old is old enough to figure this out. It's fairly typical of them to do whatever they think they can get away with at that age - and it sounds like you've let them to some degree.
Give them fair warning as you would to a group of adults playing on easy-mode, and if they ignore them, run your ambushes and don't hold back.
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I agree with pretty much everyone in this thread. I play a number of games with my sons (12-15), and if they did something like that, I'd wipe them out. They would get a warning or three, and it sounds like you've already done that. So kill them all and say "I told you so." Then discuss it with them. Both why it is a bad idea, and review the hints that you gave.
And then it is time for new characters.
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There was an old rule of thumb, an encounter with a CR equal to the average party level should sap about 25% of their resources. So, if you're able to get the players to recognize this, they know that they should only be resting about every third or fourth battle.
If you feel that they are resting too frequently, making them aware of the above might help. But, you should also know after you design your adventure that they will need to rest approximately "X" times. If they rest more than that, start having monsters leave (with their treasure) and replace them with equivalent CR animals or other creatures with no treasure. Have them get attacked by wandering monsters and reward no XP's. Putting time limits (in game terms) on the adventure is another route to take.
If your problem is that they do not look for a suitable place to rest, I would prompt a Knowledge (dungeoneering) check and tell them that they want to find a safer spot. Ask them to give you a night-watch schedule etc.
Ultimately, if they give no sign of following common sense suggestions, do your worst ;-)
Andy
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I second Valandil. It doesn't hurt to have some out-of-character metagame discussion with your young players when that is their expectation.
Another factor is they don't know how "hardcore" a GM you are. Sounds like your tendency is to play things realistically, enemies as smart, and that you won't forgive stupid mistakes. I teach a Pathfinder class with middle schoolers and I've found that the strong tendency with kids that age is to either be oblivious or to consciously try to "get away" with something and, once you lay down the law, claim they "didn't know!" :D
So a good rule is to be very, very explicit! "Out-of-character" objections be damned... Some of them are metagaming ALREADY thinking you'll take off the gloves, so it's not like you're introducing it! :D
Ya know, i never really considered myself a hardcore DM, I let way more things go then the DM I learned from (Who says he let way more things go from the DM he learned from) I'm 22 and I learned 3.5 when I was 14ish. But what baffled me was what i stated in the earlier post. There is a young, 6 year-old girl playing and she said "Uh...sleeping here is probably a bad idea, ya know there is that big locked door that Mr. Dm wen into a lot of detail about. Maybe we should sleep outside?"
It reminded me of "The Evil Overlord's List"One of my advisors will be an average five-year-old child. Any flaws in my plan that he is able to spot will be corrected before implementation.
It reminded me of "The Evil Overlord's List"
One of my advisors will be an average five-year-old child. Any flaws in my plan that he is able to spot will be corrected before implementation.
I was thinking the same thing. Love that list. Anyway...
Is the issue that they're sleeping between every fight, or that they're sleeping in un-wise locations? I'd want to understand that before going further in a conversation with the players, as it might shape the conversation and points I would present to them, but I do think you're going to need to have a conversation. A few points:
* What they're doing is not at all realistic (yes, we're talking about a fantasy game, but you know what I mean). That may not be important to them, but it is part of your ability to enjoy the game. Ask if there is a way to balance those interests.
* Ask why are they resting so much? Is it because they're afraid if they don't go into the next fight at full health and with all their spells, they're going to die? If so, point out to them you could arrange any single encounter to be so overwhelming as to kill them, period. "Twelve pit fiends, bang, you're dead." That's not your goal. Your goal is to challenge them, to put their characters at some degree of risk but that their characters should be able to overcome. That could be staged as a sequence of four or five encounters, or one single encounter. The first is more realistic, while the second can be made so dangerous as to be just as deadly as the four or five combined.
* Have a discussion about what you all find to be fun about the game. Discuss some compromise. Do they all want you to just ignore this and let them rest after every fight in the middle of a hallway outside the BBEG's lair? Really? Maybe, put like that, they'll realize what they're doing is silly and change their minds. Or maybe you all can work out a middle-ground.
But if not, and this is what they think is fun and changing that will make the game un-enjoyable for them, then you've got to answer a question for yourself: Will *you* be able to enjoy the game if you continue with this bit of unrealistic silliness, or do you need to take a break?
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I was talking to my 11 year old grand daughter about your situation. The first thing she asked is if they blocked the door to the sleeping hall with the dead bodies. Then did they set traps or a watch? She has only been playing for 6 months in a weekly game. I just found it interesting that she agreed with your 1st grader, where the older ones didn't understand it.If they continue then maybe just kill one of them(make sure there is a way to res the fallen and they know about it).
You might also suggest to the casters to buy some wands. That way they can save their spells and not need to rest so much. Even non casters can buy healing wands and let a caster use it to heal them during or after battles.
Most video games let you rest to full after each combat. Even in the middle of an enemy fortress. It isn't realistic. BUT with new players they may expect the same sort of environment. Just talk to them and explain that there are safe and unsafe places to rest.
I agree with the video game analysis. The older members of the group have probably played a few e-games, which have a very different set of triggers to start encounters. Specifically, they have triggers and not reasonable thinking (or glasses, I suppose).
I think a metagame discussion needs to happen if your expectation is to use rational behavior, but they're expecting triggers for their encounters.
All this videogame talk makes me think:
You know when you play Fallout, and you're beat half to death, but you don't want to waste your stimpaks, and you see a bed. You click it, and little red text warning comes up that says "You can't sleep when there are enemies nearby." And you can't.
It's meta, but it's effective.
Also, middle school age kids like you're dealing with are a lot smarter than they like you to think. They are ruthless and unscrupulous, and they will play you to the best of their ability. Do not be afraid to play them back.
Fill your dungeon with semi-intelligent rats who instinctively Detect Magic and steal away with magic items when the owners are asleep.
I punished this by having them ambushed while the were resting. The enemies were weaker then what they had already fought but without spells, they had a hard time.I though i had taught them NOT to just sleep in any random place...BUT THEY DID IT AGAIN!
Keep the game fun for everyone, you and players included.
Punishing and teaching lessons is not always fun for neither party. That being said, it's ok for you to bring out appropriate consequences for imprudent acts.
The metagaming approach is also good. Rather than "teaching" the players how their (supposedly) experienced characters should act if they want to live, telling them that their characters know enough not to rest here where they will likely be attacked and/or disturbed is legit by me. Just don't be a prick and put players in "lose/lose more" situations all the time. Cut them some slack once in a while :)
'findel
I punished this by having them ambushed while the were resting. The enemies were weaker then what they had already fought but without spells, they had a hard time.I though i had taught them NOT to just sleep in any random place...BUT THEY DID IT AGAIN!
Keep the game fun for everyone, you and players included.
Punishing and teaching lessons is not always fun for neither party. That being said, it's ok for you to bring out appropriate consequences for imprudent acts.
The metagaming approach is also good. Rather than "teaching" the players how their (supposedly) experienced characters should act if they want to live, telling them that their characters know enough not to rest here where they will likely be attacked and/or disturbed is legit by me. Just don't be a prick and put players in "lose/lose more" situations all the time. Cut them some slack once in a while :)
'findel
This. Especially since the players are so young. Even with adult players sometimes stuff that you're certain should be obvious just isn't.
I would, as others suggest, first just talk to the players straight up: "You are resting too often. This is not a video game. It will get you killed. Plus it's boring to me and the most dangerous thing you can do is bore the GM, and that goes back to 'it will get you killed.'"
Also, rather than give them reasons NOT to rest, give them reasons to WANT to keep going. There's a close relative they need to rescue before it's too late. The tunnels are collapsing behind them. Reasonable time limits that simultaneously add to the excitement of the game are in my personal experience the nearest-to-guaranteed ways to keep the PCs from resting too often. Heck, I've actually hit the opposite problem, where the players want to keep going and as GM I've been like, "Uh, there's opportunity for rest and downtime here, you should probably take it..." But it's a terrific compliment for them to want to keep going and see what happens next, and having them aim for "what happens next" is a hell of a lot more fun for all concerned than the attitude of "you are not playing the way I think you should so I shall punish you!"
Random encounters. It's the only way they'll learn.
Okay, I need to get my players to stop resting as often. The players are young so I've cut them some slack in the past, but most have been playing for over a year and it just got absurd recently.
So they go into a dungeon and have a decent fight at the entrance(only a cleric, ranger, and fighter are present.)
Then they have an ABSURDLY long and drawn out fight with 2 mimics due to bad luck (Nearly the entire party is there EXCEPT for the fighter from earlier.)
And lastly they have a very difficult fight with twice the number of enemies that they should have because a player opened the door to the next room where more enemies were sleeping. (Only a summoner, a DIFFERENT fighter and the same cleric.)I have no problem with them wanting to rest after this (especially the cleric who had been running on fumes keeping everybody up), but their is a large door ominously off the the side in an earlier area that the ignored and instead decided to sleep in the enemies beds before their bodies had even cooled.
I punished this by having them ambushed while the were resting. The enemies were weaker then what they had already fought but without spells, they had a hard time.
I though i had taught them NOT to just sleep in any random place...BUT THEY DID IT AGAIN!
They are close to the end of the dungeon, and have only had ONE fight from their last rest. The Big Bad of the area appears in a fire burning in the room and taunts them to come and get him through the UNLOCKED door (opens in towards his room). Their reaction...better sleep.
I just want him and his contingent of guards to ambush them while they sleep, but i also don't want to be a complete jerk to them.
Good story, I loved it. Kill them totally, slit their throats in their sleep. Their actual characters wouldn't sleep in the same beds especially after that, so bringing the fight to them is correct. Coup de gras to start the fight.
Plus I know this is years old but interesting to read about anyway.
Funny,
We actually had a real world narcoleptic player in our group way back in the before times. This necro brought back many strange memories.
Funny,
We actually had a real world narcoleptic player in our group way back in the before times. This necro brought back many strange memories.
It's all fun and games until they are resting and you as a GM are trying to keep the action moving.
Yes, 'on delay' is a thing, but that's hardly fair to the other players at the table if the player's character has CRUCIAL skills.
In a home campaign, one might get away with it as a GM.
In an organized play campaign, if the player is responsible and knows it might be an issue, they can write-up a basic list of functions (example: Party healer -- > Heal X person if they are hurt badly, remove debuffs from other person, etc) to help mitigate the concern.
Also, these things can happen with apalling regularity at larger conventions where the players may be GMing (or playing) a lot more blocks than their body can handle.
Courtesy, dignity, and respect are as important as Explore, Report, Cooperate. Empathy for the person in question is important*.