Goblin Squad Member
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From the blog A Three-Headed Hydra
...A primary example of this is holy symbols, which come pre-built with a set of abilities (channel energy, domain powers, etc) set according to the god the symbol is dedicated to. A holy symbol of Desna will let you channel positive energy, while one of Lamashtu will let you channel negative energy, but you can only use a holy symbol that matches your alignment. Similarly, you can only use weapon abilities that you have the right character abilities to trigger.
So it looks like it will be dependent upon which is your deity and their alignment and whether they allow you to channel positive or negative energy.
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Goblin Squad Member
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From the blog A Three-Headed Hydra
...A primary example of this is holy symbols, which come pre-built with a set of abilities (channel energy, domain powers, etc) set according to the god the symbol is dedicated to. A holy symbol of Desna will let you channel positive energy, while one of Lamashtu will let you channel negative energy, but you can only use a holy symbol that matches your alignment. Similarly, you can only use weapon abilities that you have the right character abilities to trigger.So it looks like it will be dependent upon which is your deity and their alignment and whether they allow you to channel positive or negative energy.
Which conveniently matches up to PnP pretty well. Interesting changes, though.
Goblinworks Executive Founder
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I would also strongly disagree with outright blocking spell choice based on alignment. It's a choice, like Star War Darkside powers. It's quicker, easier, more seductive. Raising the dead, summoning fiends, all acts that bring objective Evil into the world. Negative energy or just out right Evil entities.Pathfinder PnP rules do this for Clerics. They cannot cast spells from alignments opposite their deity.
Okay I'll walk back a bit for that. However in that case we are talking about thematically a god granting spells and a Good god is not going to grant its cleric an [Evil] spell, which is outside their portfolio anyway, or grant them divine power to fire up an [Evil] containing scroll or wand. Although to bite back a bit a Neutral Cleric of a Neutral god can cast [Evil] [Good] [Law] [Chaos] [Purple-Dinosaur] whenever they want up the point where they're clearly being one or the other.
Although I guess in the world of PFO swapping out you're holy symbol (basically defecting to a different God) and going Evil (or Neutral at minimum) first would be required before that throwing out evil magic. However at that point we again see the strength of the Neutral Alignments as the Grey Alignments.
However Wizards and other mortal Arcane casters have always been able to walk that line.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Honstly, since every player in PFO is marked by Pharasma to allow us to come back from the dead, I think that as part of that mark any casting of Animate Dead will automatically fail as she exerts her influence over you.
Seems like a fair deal to me, even for an evil necromancer. I can't cast Animate Dead, but I never have to worry about dying or the less that optimal plan of becoming a lich or other undead myself. If I really *need* mindless servants, then I can charm some townpeople or make some golems.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Yeah I am of the school of thought that you use what works. Consideration to what is good or evil does not effect that choice. So yes I will animate undead and leave them in my home while I go off to do stuff. As well as place symbols of death, pain, weakness, and fear. If protecting your home is an evil act then well alot of spellcasters are going to be in that boat, or victims of thieves. xP
It's not what you are using the magic for, it's the type of magic that makes it EVIL.
If it helps, think of it like Radiation. Prolonged exposure to radiation makes you irradiated. It doesn't really matter what you were using the radiation to do.
That's the Pathfinder/absolute (and really kind of the classical interpretation) of Evil.
Now that's not to say that you might not be able to get away with a certain limited use of it without switching alignment.... but after a certain degree of use, you reach a tripping point...no matter what your motivations were or what you really did with it, it has a corrupting influence over you.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Well, undead creation is an evil act. That doesn't mean that anyone who creates undead will be evil. It's possible to use it sparingly, and work diligently to counter it's influence and be good, or at least, neutral (depending on how alignment balance actually works out). But it will make holding your alignment above evil that much harder.
As for the comment about spellcasters being in trouble, there are a lot of other ways to magically protect a place. Warding runes, magical traps, etc.
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Goblin Squad Member
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It's possible to use it sparingly, and work diligently to counter it's influence and be good...
Sure. Bilbo put the Ring on quite a few times, and didn't get completely corrupted. But it certainly took its toll.
However, the truly wise knew how dangerous it was to think that you could use Evil for Good.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Honstly, since every player in PFO is marked by Pharasma to allow us to come back from the dead, I think that as part of that mark any casting of Animate Dead will automatically fail as she exerts her influence over you.
Seems like a fair deal to me, even for an evil necromancer. I can't cast Animate Dead, but I never have to worry about dying or the less that optimal plan of becoming a lich or other undead myself. If I really *need* mindless servants, then I can charm some townpeople or make some golems.
There is an inference to be made from your comment that may need consideration. If respawning is the agency of a goddes who truly hates the undead, will an undead-raising necromancer be unable to respawn?
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Goblin Squad Member
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This is one of those areas where I got into a really heated "debate" with someone in a gaming group I was in over this.
We as mortals tend to play fast and loose with things like alignments. How can we not? We judge things from our own ideals and to us, ANY action can be considered Good or Evil, it all depends on how we perceive the action, the motivations involved, etc. etc.
However, there are powers at work in this universe that deal in absolutes, that eat, sleep, and breath their alignment. Their alignment is a fundamental component of who they are and they tend to make the rules when it comes to certain things. We might be able to logic and reason the act of raising the dead in service to the living to be as good or evil an act as we want, but we have to realize that we're playing THEIR game and they deal in absolutes.
To the powers that be, raising the dead into undeath is evil. There's no Ifs, Ands, or Buts about it. There's no gray area. There's no "look at it from this point of view". It's evil to them and if you use it, you are evil and you can do jack s#+& to change that.
And for the record, I made this same argument to someone who tried to claim it wasn't an evil act to raise a Gold Dragon into undeath to use as a flying mount. The GM didn't side with me.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The problem with good versus evil is that it is based on people judging other people. The great thing about a role-playing game like this is that it has a pantheon where the deities are directly involved with the inhabitants of the world. Any deity can command what is good and what is bad from their perspective. Those who follow their deities guidance can gain favor with them.
You could remove good and evil from the game entirely
I understand this is completely thinking outside the box but it keeps people from arguing what exactly is good, what is bad. Settlements will either create laws to abide the major deities that are worshiped or people will worship deities who's ethos fall within the confines of the settlement's laws. If the law of the land is undead are bad, slavery is bad, breaking oaths is bad, boiling babies is bad then you are a criminal if you commit these atrocious acts. If the law covers the entire river kingdoms then so be it, let it be up to those who wish to do these things to push their deity's doctrine throughout the land. Those who oppose can resist and push back. Let politics and religion mix freely and you will guarantee yourself centuries of war.
Having good and evil makes it too easy to take sides. Taking sides should never be easy or uncomplicated.
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Goblin Squad Member
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My thoughts on OPs post. I could see a necromancer creating zombies and skeletons with the animate dead spell worth his level or so. And one undead with the create undead spell that would be more powerful.
Maybe the zombies and skeletons couldn't be controlled but the one created by the create undead spell could be. Something like that.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The problem with good versus evil is that it is based on people judging other people. The great thing about a role-playing game like this is that it has a pantheon where the deities are directly involved with the inhabitants of the world. Any deity can command what is good and what is bad from their perspective. Those who follow their deities guidance can gain favor with them.
You could remove good and evil from the game entirely
I understand this is completely thinking outside the box but it keeps people from arguing what exactly is good, what is bad. Settlements will either create laws to abide the major deities that are worshiped or people will worship deities who's ethos fall within the confines of the settlement's laws. If the law of the land is undead are bad, slavery is bad, breaking oaths is bad, boiling babies is bad then you are a criminal if you commit these atrocious acts. If the law covers the entire river kingdoms then so be it, let it be up to those who wish to do these things to push their deity's doctrine throughout the land. Those who oppose can resist and push back. Let politics and religion mix freely and you will guarantee yourself centuries of war.
Having good and evil makes it too easy to take sides. Taking sides should never be easy or uncomplicated.
Sorry, but if you do that it may not be Pathfinder any more, there might be gray areas, but those have always been there.
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Goblin Squad Member
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What if just want to raise undead for manual labor?
Still be an evil act. The whole point is the concept that raising an undead enslave or at least disturbs the soul that was linked to that body in life. Also undeads are filled with negative energy that is nocive to life.
So if you are willing to cause suffering to a soul just to have its former body working for you it is with no doubt an evil act.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'm not a big fan of things being painted black and white. Nothing is ever truly that easy. Everything is a shade of grey.
If this game were based upon RL, I'd agree with you, but since it is based upon PFRPG, things ARE black and white. In both D&D and Pathfinder, alignments are rigid. GW appears to be following through on their promise to make use of PFRPG as much as possible, where it makes sense in an MMO. While your GM may allow for ambiguity (I've played in campaigns where this is the case), this is an MMO, and to keep the spirit of PFRPG, alignments and the whole Good v Evil dynamic needs to be well defined. Is this somewhat more limiting than in a PnP game, yes, but from a coding stand point it works best.
BTW, it is possible, at least in PFRPG to play a "White" Necromancer who uses his/her knowledge of Necromancy to become a PC that hunts and lays to rest undead, thus not raising any Undead. I've played one, and they are quite effective at that task!
@Aeioun, you have a very valid point, as a skilled Cleric, Wizard or Sorcerer who chooses to have Necromantic skills would outstrip others of the same sill level having an army at his/her beck and call. Perhaps a good compromise should be limiting the number of undead a "Necromancer" can control, much as they do in PFRPG? Anyone with access to Turn/Control Undead can only effect a certain limited number. If GW sets that number a little lower than in PFRPG, it still has the flavor, but limits the power a novice (few skills) PC has to over-balance gameplay. Your thoughts?
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Goblin Squad Member
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What if just want to raise undead for manual labor?Still be an evil act. The whole point is the concept that raising an undead enslave or at least disturbs the soul that was linked to that body in life. Also undeads are filled with negative energy that is nocive to life.
So if you are willing to cause suffering to a soul just to have its former body working for you it is with no doubt an evil act.
You're just animating a corpse. Where does a part of it's former soul come into play?
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Aeioun, you have a very valid point, as a skilled Cleric, Wizard or Sorcerer who chooses to have Necromantic skills would outstrip others of the same sill level having an army at his/her beck and call. Perhaps a good compromise should be limiting the number of undead a "Necromancer" can control, much as they do in PFRPG? Anyone with access to Turn/Control Undead can only effect a certain limited number. If GW sets that number a little lower than in PFRPG, it still has the flavor, but limits the power a novice (few skills) PC has to over-balance gameplay. Your thoughts?
A necromancer should definitely be able to animate at least 5 zombies or skeletons and be able to create a devourer at the same time to cast some spells. The number of undead could be tied to the wizard/cleric merit badges somehow. A necromancer could choose the number/power of the undead and change it at will for the purpose of different undead having different skills.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Aeioun, you have a very valid point, as a skilled Cleric, Wizard or Sorcerer who chooses to have Necromantic skills would outstrip others of the same sill level having an army at his/her beck and call. Perhaps a good compromise should be limiting the number of undead a "Necromancer" can control, much as they do in PFRPG? Anyone with access to Turn/Control Undead can only effect a certain limited number. If GW sets that number a little lower than in PFRPG, it still has the flavor, but limits the power a novice (few skills) PC has to over-balance gameplay. Your thoughts?A necromancer should definitely be able to animate at least 5 zombies or skeletons and be able to create a devourer at the same time to cast some spells. The number of undead could be tied to the wizard/cleric merit badges somehow. A necromancer could choose the number/power of the undead and change it at will for the purpose of different undead having different skills.
Interesting idea. I will mull it over and let you know what I think. Tying it to merit badges could be a way of limiting power, but rewarding those who have trained the skills. I'm leaning toward agreeing :)
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Goblin Squad Member
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the alignment, and good vs evil discussion reminded me of a game I ran many years ago. Often players chose their characters based on their own wishes and maybe also their own believes or personality. This game I had premade some toons my players could chose from, and it was just your varies classes. I had made a complete personality for the characters with nevrotic fears and personality quirks. It was different, but ended up beeing kinda fun. I guess for gaming purposes the boxing players into a role with a given alignment makes things a bit easier, otherwise you would kinda have to start on true neutral and your actions would determine your alignment. Hard piece to program when actions might be based on very different motivations.
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Goblin Squad Member
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You're just animating a corpse. Where does a part of it's former soul come into play?What if just want to raise undead for manual labor?Still be an evil act. The whole point is the concept that raising an undead enslave or at least disturbs the soul that was linked to that body in life. Also undeads are filled with negative energy that is nocive to life.
So if you are willing to cause suffering to a soul just to have its former body working for you it is with no doubt an evil act.
That is not the way rasing undeads works in PFRPG, it is not simply animating a body, but a process that disturbes/enslaves the former boddy's owner soul.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Just as a note, it doesn't specifically say in the spell it has any effects on the soul in the spell description. It does however specifically indicate it is an evil spell.
While I fully agree raising undead is an evil act, the whole souls conversation is sort of a distrction, so I'll bring this up from the text of the Magic Jar spell:
Undead creatures are powered by negative energy. Only sentient undead creatures have, or are, souls.
So it would depend on the sort of undead you're raising.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Just as a note, it doesn't specifically say in the spell it has any effects on the soul in the spell description. It does however specifically indicate it is an evil spell.
While I fully agree raising undead is an evil act, the whole souls conversation is sort of a distrction, so I'll bring this up from the text of the Magic Jar spell:
Undead creatures are powered by negative energy. Only sentient undead creatures have, or are, souls.So it would depend on the sort of undead you're raising.
Yes that makes sense, maybe zombies and skelektons could not have this soul issue, but they still filled with nocive negative energy, that certainly is the reason it still an evil spell.
And also, just imagine a situation like: a mother seeing her son's body walking around as a zombie, that would not be a good thing to watch. In most civilizations people dead bodies are sacred or at least something that demands respect. So just this detail would make the act of raising undeads something seen as evil.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The problem with animated dead is that the soul and perceptions of the deceased are forced back into their husk, but not their will. The deceased are left seeing and feeling the actions taken by their former body but are helpless to do anything about it. "intelligent" undead don't subvert this; the intelligence is newly created by magic, and the victim is stuck with the thoughts of the malevolent intelligence, again with no way to actively interact.
All this talk of pulling people back from the afterlife for the purpose of enslaving them is disturbing; spreading misinformation about the effects of becoming undead is downright malicious.
Thats why I use speak with the dead to get thier permission first...