Actually, as Grumpy just explained, the rules do not contradict my statement at all.
One can block paladins from entering your settlement. One can make killing those with the Heinous flag a criminal offence in your settlement. Outside your settlement, default rules apply.
Rumors. People talk. In some cases there is magic (detect spells, scry, divination, etc). In some cases gods do strike you down, yes. Or send a divine champion to take you out, etc, etc.How do all these people know what your doing?
Is there some magic that instantly informs people your doing bad things?
Do the gods strike you down with lightning?
Sure, I'm in favor of word of someone's deeds spreading from one hex to another, but in a realistic timeframe rather then instantly spreading globally. I'm in favor of a character not receiving a flag unless their deeds are in some way observed. The Thief who slips into a harvesting site and picks a merchants pocket undetected, then slips out again shouldn't receive any flags. But the assassin who is observed slaying someone should have word of their deed spread throughout a hex and that word should slowly spread to other hexes simulating the speed of rumor or official declaration. The Necromancer who summons skeletons to guard their tower, then leaves that hex to journey two hexes away shouldn't arrive with a heinous flag.
These sorts of things are more difficult to code, but are more realistic. To me that's important, but I'm not the one doing the coding.
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Really cannot see the issue.
You are heinous for 1 minute after creating undead or stealing slaves from the local settlement? So what ?
It is 1 minute AFTER you no longer have any undead. So if you summon/create an undead you have the heinous flag for as long as you have the undead active.
Undead are not the only thing necromancers can do. Indeed, I've seen plenty of high-level necromancers who never summon undead. So the idea that the flag is targeting this class is just balderdash.
The necromancer can summon undead when he's about to fight anyway and dismiss them again when the fight is over and he needs to go into town. If he wants to go into a town with his undead, he finds a LE town that doesn't mind necromancy.
It's a small limit to reflect that the River Kingdoms see the act of corpse animation as taboo.
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The flag is targeting certain behaviour, namely the kind of behaviour that makes the commoners hate you and cheer for anyone who spits at you.
My feeling is that people want to behave like villains but be treated the same as heroes.
There seems to be a fundamental disagreement over whether commanding undead is evil. In PF rules, Golarion lore, Golarion religions, very specifically in the River Kingdoms, and very explicitly in GW blogs it is regarded as evil. Basing arguments on "using undead isn't necessarily evil" isn't productive when discussing PFO.
Something notable is that raisers of the dead do not have to be evil, which is probably what those people are referring to. However, that doesn't stop others from seeing those necromancers as foul. The River Kingdoms hate it, so you should stick close to friends if you pull any shenanigans.
Honestly, it miiiight be a good idea to only make Heinous affect reputation shifts. Killing a Chaotic Good necromancer is heavily questionable, and local taboos do not protect from that. A paladin might believe lying to be the most despicable of sins, and all around him might agree, but murdering a beggar for feigning an injury is still an evil act.
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Really cannot see the issue.
You are heinous for 1 minute after creating undead or stealing slaves from the local settlement? So what ?
No you are heinous for as long as you have slaves.
You are heinous for as long as you are controlling undead.Basically I'm wondering around in a dungeon find a room of skeletons use control undead voila as long as I control those undead I have the Heinous Flag. Which means anyone in the party with me can now kill me without losing rep.
I leave the dungeon for as long as I was controlling the Undead I have the Heinous flag anyone who sees me can run up to me and kill me without losing rep.
Now your settlement uses slave labor well guess what the person who controls those buildings using the Slave Labor has the heinous flag until they finish what ever they are producing. He will then continue to have the Heinous flag for a period of time equal to the time his slave production was working.
Kobold so your okay with Cheliax giving any priest of a chaotic diety Villain for as long as they are in there territory?
You good with the Kingdom of Man giving all Priests, Oracles, Paladins and worshipers of Dieties the Villain Flag for as long as your in thier territory?
You don't mind that the end result of having the flag in the game will be the long term application of Villain just for entering a Countries Territory?
Thats what I object to.
The flag shouldn't exist and in the long term will destroy the game.
Yes, actually, I would be okay with those scenarios (though since a chaotic deity is substantially different from necromancy alignment-wise, I would support removing the alignment shift protection in those cases). The Heinous tag represents that nobody cares whether you live or die.
Which is why we are not playing a game in Cheliax, or the Kingdom of Man. Like Jiminy said. The River Kingdoms were chosen because it's much easier for evil characters to move about freely than most locations.
Oh, also, there has not yet been any indication that controlling undead will bring you the Heinous flag. Creation does result in the Heinous flag as long as the undead exist, but controlling somebody else's hasn't been confirmed to flag you.
Oh! One more thing I just noticed. You're talking like getting the Villain flag will cripple a character forever. It will actually cripple a character for around 24 hours (probably less, if the creators decide to make it run on time spent logged in instead of just time elapsed overall). After that, he can go back to the Good-aligned settlements without any trouble. :)
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I can think of reasons why creating or using undead would not be "evil". I also don't think that a killing an evil creature is evil so I am out of fashion (shrug). I am against the idea that alignment should be used for PvP. Every single flag and anti-griefing mech could be done with reputation. It's cleaner that way and everyone can play the class they want.
Since it does not appear to be changing I think that those wanting to be Necromancers are going to have to rethink their class just like I think Paladins might want to think long and hard on theirs. I feel bad for both of these groups.
If you are looking at the pet class aspects or disposable pets you might want to look towards Druid. They will have many of the same play styles as "pet class" Necromancer. You can even play a fairly evil Druid if you wanted that aspect, but didn't want the 24/7 come kill me flag. I know it's a bitter pill but it might end up to be the best option.
Ludy, can you stop acting like necromancers are going to be constantly crippled? It just isn't true. They are endangered for the duration of their undead's existence. I have played many necromancers who never animated so much as a dead housefly.
If you want to animate undead, do it where you're safe. But you otherwise have nothing to worry about.
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I'm very happy with the PvP flags.
As Kobold Cleaver, GrumpyMel, and others have pointed out, there is no reason to assume that somebody with the Heinous flag will be constantly attacked by all, friends and allies included. Simply repeating over and over again that allies will attack you all the time doesn't change this. I don't think this happened in UO, this didn't happen in EQ... I just don't see a precedent to think this. And those systems didn't give you the ability to have laws against killing.
Since no new arguments or information or stances have been presented, this 'discussion' is starting to sound an awful lot like a few people just want to raise undead and hold slaves with impunity, though that directly conflicts with the IP (as pointed out by those more knowledgeable than I). That's one way to do it, though I hope GW doesn't go that route for reasons already stated.
GW can either throw out the IP and make undead and slavery easy/common things with little flavor/power just for the people that want to pretend that they are a powerful necromancer, or they can keep with the IP and allow players to roleplay as crusaders against these evils in the River Kingdoms and actually allow people to BE powerful necromancers.
You can have settlements based on undead minions and slave labor where the inhabitantss can freely run around the world flaunting their evils, and eventually Good settlements will declare war on them and kill them out in the world and destroy their settlement.
Or, you can have settlements based on undead minions and slave labor where the inhabitants know that they are not going to be warmly received by some characters outside of their sanctuary (in keeping with the lore) and so keep to themselves and set up patrols to keep those types out of the surrounding areas. Good settlements will eventually declare war on them, but that state of war is no different than they are used to, since good characters attacked them before if they slipped into their territory anyway. Now, though, their settlement can have a significant benefit from the undead/slaves they use (more benefit in exchange for the extra risk they took on).
Potential Areas to Tweak the Heinous Flag
I will concede that the Heinous flag is unique in that it is a short-term flag that you get from a (presumably) PvE action. (We don't know enough/anything-at-all about what they have planned for undead or slaves, so we can't know for sure that this is a PvE action. For instance, I don't think it likely, but creating undead in a hex might just enable that hex to switch to a powerful 'undead-based' escalation cycle that would eventually invite a lich to take up residence and threaten a nearby settlement/Good settlement.)
Because slavery is explicitly outlawed by the River Freedoms, I wouldn't mind if the benefits weren't all that powerful, such that a settlement that endorses slavery is somewhat rare, and non-existent at some points in time.
I have almost no knowledge of Pathfinder lore, but I would expect several necromantic cults and settlements in the River Kingdoms to exist at any given time, even if most are undetected (please correct me if I am wrong).
The only sensical/logical argument from a mechanical and lore/IP/RP point of view was made by GrumpyMel, first in another thread and now in this one: Typically, a necromantic cult acts in the shadows and is extremely secretive. Now, if necromancy can be a purely PvE action (which we don't know), it makes sense to me that necromancers should be able to 'hide in plain sight.' There were arguments before that outlaws killing people in the wilderness with no witnesses should not be flagged, but that was tossed out because the victims would be resurrected and simply tell others they were murdered. I think the argument could apply here, though.
I humbly suggest that, if necromancy could be a purely PvE endeavor, the Villainous 24-hour flag be modified (or removed?) from necromantic applications. This would allow necromancers to work in secret. The power of creating and controlling undead may have to be scaled back from the original intent, but I feel this would work out to be closer to what people would expect from experimenting with necromancy in the River Kingdoms.
That said, I fully expect GW to eventually release the other 70% of information we need to actually make educated predictions of what might happen with the heinous flag and slaves/undead, and at that point we'll all feel somewhat foolish.
I kind of wonder if animating the dead will involve animating PC husks, thus destroying all non-threaded items. That would certainly justify necromancy being treated as evil OOC--just as it is considered "griefing" in-world, it's basically griefing in-game, too.
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Ludy, can you stop acting like necromancers are going to be constantly crippled? It just isn't true. They are endangered for the duration of their undead's existence. I have played many necromancers who never animated so much as a dead housefly.
If you want to animate undead, do it where you're safe. But you otherwise have nothing to worry about.
And can you stop putting words in my mouth?
I was making a statement on the use of a Necromancer as a DISPOSABLE PET CLASS. I did not mention any of the other aspects of the class on purpose and also specifically laid out in my post that I was making statements that called out this aspect of game play.
If you are looking at the pet class aspects or disposable pets you might want to look towards Druid.
I still hold that if someone is looking to play a necromancer as a PET CLASS then they may want to look at other options. The flag system, as it stands, will make the creation of undead a strong disadvantage to the class in this play style. While people MAY not attack you sight they also might. Why? Because you can get loot and not worry about getting flagged for doing it most of the time. A druid can summon natures ally all fricken day and not once get flagged. So in the play style I listed, more than once, the Druid will be at an advantage in general play.
People have been playing Necromancers as a pet class in MMO's longer than Pathfinder RPG has been around. It seems to reason that many would want to continue in roles they have established since like 1999 when EQ came out. Not me be the way. I just don't like the whole idea that a person that never attacks another and stays in the "safe" areas can be hunted for their actions in PvE.
Now if you're playing the Necro as a Harm Touch/Symbol of Death/Inflict Wounds no you wouldn't be hit by it much. Thing is people are not talking about that play style. At least I wasn't. I was giving an option to those that want to be a pet class without the negatives of ever falling under the Heinous flag.
Well, if you never want to fall under the Heinous flag, then yes, animating the dead is a bad idea. Heck, being evil at all is a bad idea in that playstyle. But some people enjoy the risk. Nobody's getting crippled except those who don't have the sense to not summon undead whenever they feel like it.
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Well, if you never want to fall under the Heinous flag, then yes, animating the dead is a bad idea. Heck, being evil at all is a bad idea in that playstyle. But some people enjoy the risk. Nobody's getting crippled except those who don't have the sense to not summon undead whenever they feel like it.
No those that want it as a pet class are. You keep saying do it in secret but why would you want to when summon natures ally or summon monster would never be hit by the flag for simply using a spell. You could still be "evil" and be a druid or a wizard with those spells.
Some people are motivated by flavor rather than mechanical security. If you wanted to use undead in every fight, you'd probably have ended up getting killed by paladins sooner or later, flag or no flag.
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It's going to be the same for half of the rogue skills - that is, rogues will get the criminal flag for infiltrating enemy territory, stealing from the enemy, setting traps...a whole bunch of things.
It's all about figuring out when to use the skills that get you flagged and when to be a little more circumspect.
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One of the things that will be interesting to see is if they impliment any DISGUISE mechanics in PFO. That would restore the ability of more notorious characters (Evil, Necromancers, Outlaws, etc) to hide in plain sight but make it an imperfect veil. In other words Joe's real personality is as a Heinous necromancer that everyone knows is a notorious villian but Joe can disguise himself as an innocent baker, just traveling around town. If someone manage's to pierce Joe's disguise or Joe blows his cover by openly doing something Heinous then Joe is in trouble...if not Joe can quietly go about his business and there are no problems. That may address the issue.
The real problems, as I see it, is when Joe is OPENLY doing something Heinous in a place that doesn't tolerate such activity but no one can touch Joe because the system isn't smart enough to put a flag on him. In the River Kingdoms, raising undead and slavery are Heinous...the populous...even the Evil populous just doesn't tolerate such activity. So you need to either hide that you are doing it...or build your own nook where the populous tolerates it and protects you...otherwise it's torches and pitchforks for you. If the Campaign setting were elsewher, that might not be true...but here it pretty much is.
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If the disguise skill turns out like I hope it does, I would use it the opposite of how you describe it GrumpyMel. That is, Jiminy would be an all round nice guy selling his wares during the day, but at night while in disguise, he becomes The Jackel, feared and respected assassin.
Either way, I'm hoping it turns out a fully functional system to help out those criminals and heinous folk. Of course, it would allow some LG folk to disguise themselves if they felt they needed to anonymously punish the wicked :)
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Ludy, can you stop acting like necromancers are going to be constantly crippled? It just isn't true. They are endangered for the duration of their undead's existence. I have played many necromancers who never animated so much as a dead housefly.
If you want to animate undead, do it where you're safe. But you otherwise have nothing to worry about.
Where are you safe?
Answer Nowhere.
I play Star Wars Old Republic.
I have seen jerks on both sides deliberately walk into the aoe of people fighting to flag people so they can gank them while they are minding thier own buisness trying to pve. I have seen them heal the mobs you are fighting that are faction based so they can deliberately kill you while you aren't flagged. I have seen people also act with respect and leave them alone. In most pvp games I've played in I have seen people devolve to the lowest common jerk because they think its cool.
Also you might want to read the post.
Heinous
The character has committed an act that is universally viewed as evil, such as raising and controlling undead, using slaves to build structures or gather resources, etc.
The Heinous flag lasts one minute beyond the duration of the deed unless the character does something to get it again before the duration runs out. Characters using undead for example will have the Heinous flag the entire time they are using undead.
You summon or control undead you have the heinous flag for as long as you have them.
Now as for your comment we aren't playing in the Kingdom of Man.
So you are absolutely convinced the game will never expand beyond the River Kingdoms?
The flag should not exist.
Its bad for the game.
Its a come kill me for fluff text open permission to gank people, punishment for people doing things the game's developers don't like.
Where are you safe?
Answer Nowhere.
Wrong.
You are safe in necromancy-friendly settlements, which can mark killing someone with the Heinous flag as a crime. You are also safe alone (as safe as you can be when alone, of course), and at war (again, as safe as you'd be at war regardless of necromancy). People who grief you in the settlement get killed by the Enforcers. People who kill you when you're at war are either enemies (common hazard for anybody), profiteers (another hazard for anybody), or teammates. In the latter case, they get kicked out and possibly killed by the rest of the alliance.|
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Where are you safe?
Answer Nowhere.
Wrong.
You are safe in necromancy-friendly settlements, which can mark killing someone with the Heinous flag as a crime. You are also safe alone (as safe as you can be when alone, of course), and at war (again, as safe as you'd be at war regardless of necromancy). People who grief you in the settlement get killed by the Enforcers. People who kill you when you're at war are either enemies (common hazard for anybody), profiteers (another hazard for anybody), or teammates. In the latter case, they get kicked out and possibly killed by the rest of the alliance.
So I'm safe getting killed?
How is that safe?So essentially by your own admission Heinous flag = Free pass on griefing...
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Still goin', eh?
Yep it is an important subject for people.
This targets one style of play and makes them targets for who ever wants to attack them.
All the other flags at least give the people some sort of bonus, heinous one gives nothing but negatives which is unfair.
The flag as it stands makes me leery about the game. I like the idea of pets, and a druid is not appealing to me at all.
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I think it's real unfair to necromancer to take the creation of horrid monstrosities that send fear into the hearts of the bravest of us, unholy abominations of flesh and horror, hordes of the living dead descending upon us, and just make it another "pet class". Gotta feel like all these movies and books and Walking Dead are desensitizing us to what the undead are all about.
Liches use to be the most horrible of wizards, spending ages in ancient dungeons and catacombs, learning dark secrets and performing their evil craft until a group of adventurers descends down to end them, if they can. Now it's just sort of a thing people want to be.
But that's me.
So I'm safe getting killed?
How is that safe?So essentially by your own admission Heinous flag = Free pass on griefing...
Uh. I literally do not know what you just said. I mean, I know what you just said, but I have no idea how you got there. I don't know what you're talking about, I don't know how you managed to misinterpret my post so utterly...I just have no idea.
So--no, I'm not going to do the sarcastic agreement. What in the name of Cayden Cailean are you talking about?
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He is looking at one thing: the heinous flag is a free pass for someone to PvP all over his leg.
ewww.
But that is his issue. The upsides don't matter. It doesn't matter than in an LE town where he is protected by all manner of scary thing and it is illegal to kill the heinous he is kinda sorta safe. He wants to have slaves and undead and feels it is unfair to be thought fair game.
Can't do anything to make someone feel differently than they feel it isn't a matter of rationality.
So the sensible thing is to agree with him that it is one sided and let him deal with it. Simple.
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Still goin', eh?Yep it is an important subject for people.
This targets one style of play and makes them targets for who ever wants to attack them.
All the other flags at least give the people some sort of bonus, heinous one gives nothing but negatives which is unfair.
The flag as it stands makes me leery about the game. I like the idea of pets, and a druid is not appealing to me at all.
What bonus do the criminal or attacker flags give people?
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As a future practitioner of the Necromantic Arts I'm perfectly happy with the Heinous Flag hovering over my head 24/7 as long as:
1)Undead raising is powerfull/usefull enough to justify the risks.
2)The laws of whichever Evil settlement I end up in, protect said Heinous activity.
In both cases, it certainly sounds like it might.
Still goin', eh?Yep it is an important subject for people.
This targets one style of play and makes them targets for who ever wants to attack them.
All the other flags at least give the people some sort of bonus, heinous one gives nothing but negatives which is unfair.
The flag as it stands makes me leery about the game. I like the idea of pets, and a druid is not appealing to me at all.
What bonus do the criminal or attacker flags give people?
Or the Thief flag. I mean just because I pickpocket a few people and one of them happens to notice me! Come on, I only took some coin, likely they would have lost that coin gambling anyway, so I was performing a civic duty keeping them out of the casino!
But my point was not "people with the Heinous flag can be killed". That's his point. I was pointing out the ways a smart necromancer can handle the problem without being "crippled" as some seem to be anticipating. And if you aren't going to play smart, don't play evil.
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I think several others are agreeing with you KC. The heinous flag is no different from several other flags. A character gets it for performing an action, making them PKable for free or for far less consequences than normal. Thus, the issue people have should not be about the heinous f!!, it should be about flags in general.
I'm pretty confident there will be ways to get these flags and minimise the damage that can be done against you. Half the fun of games is working this system out and then putting it into action. For example, I am most likely going to play a rogue. If I rob someone and get a flag, I'll use a disguise, hide in the shadows, or hightail it to a designated safehouse. Necromancers should be doing exactly the same thing.
I'm glad they agree. I was just confused by the guy who didn't. I think Kakafika may've had the right of it--we still going, or is this basically resolved?
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It's resolved... And they're still going.
As I previously observed, a lot of people are giving insight as to why it makes sense, how it my be balanced, etc. Good, new points have been brought up right up to this point, and that's rare in a 2-page thread.
And then a few people just keep typing that it's unfair and not adding anything new to the conversation or addressing points, and are unwilling to find common ground and compromise to something we can all agree makes sense... and there have been ample opportunities.
I'll state again, the passion and stubborness on this topic is very strange, considering we have maybe 30% of the Big Picture. We don't know what undead do, we don't know what slaves do, we don't know what resource costs there are for these actions, we don't know how these actions affect others... the list goes on. I fully expect GW to eventually release the other 70% of information we need to actually make educated predictions of what might happen with the heinous flag and slaves/undead, and at that point we'll all feel somewhat foolish.