You've Really Got a Hold on Me - Grappling in PFO


Pathfinder Online

Scarab Sages Goblin Squad Member

I just mentioned this in the Monk thread but I though it was important enough to merit it's own thread.

I would love for Pathfinder Online to implemnt grappling rules in it's combat engine. I know there are several technical hurdles to overcome in terms of collicsion control, animations, and so forth, and no other game I can think of has even tried to make it work.

I'd like to start a discussion on the pros and cons of a full grappling system to enhance unarmed combat, complete with holds, pins and so forth. To start off it is a great way for a character to quickly neutralize an enemy spellcaster due to disrupting somatic (hand waving) components.

Thoughts?

Goblin Squad Member

+1 for the awesome Dancey-esque thread title!

Goblinworks Executive Founder

I love the idea, but it stretches my optimism to think that it could be implemented well on a reasonable budget. How can grappling be made relevant in PvP combat without becoming dominant; grappling-focused monks beat spell casters, but what category of character counters that monk?

Goblin Squad Member

DeciusBrutus wrote:
... what category of character counters that monk?

Any fighter/rogue type with a close-reach weapon?

Shadow Lodge Goblin Squad Member

DeciusBrutus wrote:
I love the idea, but it stretches my optimism to think that it could be implemented well on a reasonable budget. How can grappling be made relevant in PvP combat without becoming dominant; grappling-focused monks beat spell casters, but what category of character counters that monk?

Metal Armor + Heat metal + Fire resistance...

The classic dwarven priest troll grappler:)

Scarab Sages Goblin Squad Member

Decorus wrote:
DeciusBrutus wrote:
I love the idea, but it stretches my optimism to think that it could be implemented well on a reasonable budget. How can grappling be made relevant in PvP combat without becoming dominant; grappling-focused monks beat spell casters, but what category of character counters that monk?

Metal Armor + Heat metal + Fire resistance...

The classic dwarven priest troll grappler:)

That's nasty. If you want to get nastier, make the armor spiked. :)

Still spell is also useful. Assuming you can get the spell cast, you can't miss with a touch spell in a grapple. If you have another spell aster outside the grapple, hitting both parties with a web or grease spell is a good way to counter the grapplers control.

If you are a priest and being grappled or see your friend grappled, a command spell to let go only requires a verbal component and will free the person grappled.. Subject to a will save of course.

Goblin Squad Member

Or if it's implemented: Fly. Just fly out of range, and that counters grapple.

And don't give me "but fighters are shut down" they should have bows, even if they don't specialize in it. Beats sucking your thumb on the ground in sadness as you can't reach them vs shooting that jerkface wizard in the face.

Goblin Squad Member

Spike armored covered dwarf warrior charging in for a grapple attack. That's the type of dwarf I wanna play!


The volume of animations required would be the biggest problem. I think they could create a decent unarmed combat style without holds or pins fairly easily. From my layman's perspective, creating the animation for holds and pins both for the attacker and their opponent which would only be used for that one combat style, would take up a lot of time and resources. It would be a lot easier (I figure) for the Devs to create a series of unarmed strikes and kicks, along with some flying kicks :D. Flying kicks would be great!

Scarab Sages Goblin Squad Member

Civildude892 wrote:
Spike armored covered dwarf warrior charging in for a grapple attack. That's the type of dwarf I wanna play!

It's been done, but it's a hell of a lot fun to play. :)

Goblin Squad Member

Imagine the graphical animation fun from combat including grappling. Only missing like optional autogenerated "cutscenes" from the "dice rolls" ;)

Shadow Lodge Goblin Squad Member

Valandur wrote:
The volume of animations required would be the biggest problem. I think they could create a decent unarmed combat style without holds or pins fairly easily. From my layman's perspective, creating the animation for holds and pins both for the attacker and their opponent which would only be used for that one combat style, would take up a lot of time and resources. It would be a lot easier (I figure) for the Devs to create a series of unarmed strikes and kicks, along with some flying kicks :D. Flying kicks would be great!

Its one of those projects that is semi expensive, but worth it since most mmos do not have grappling and throws involved in them.

Goblin Squad Member

The animations will be huge to create for grappling type actions, every grappling capable race and creature would require a set of animation.


DarkOne the Drow wrote:
The animations will be huge to create for grappling type actions, every grappling capable race and creature would require a set of animation.

I was afraid of that. While I would love to see it done, I can understand why no one has attempted it. That's a lot of work for one attack of one skill.

Goblin Squad Member

I'm thinking that stun-like effects which block certain types of actions are far more likely than the complex physics, animations, and controls necessary to make it actually look or play like grappling.

They could still include the game effects of grappling. Instead of a grapple, someone may have their ability to move, use weapons above 'light' size, spellcasting, and other actions restricted. Instead of a pin, a trip to knock the target prone could accomplish the same thing.

Scarab Sages Goblin Squad Member

Keovar wrote:

I'm thinking that stun-like effects which block certain types of actions are far more likely than the complex physics, animations, and controls necessary to make it actually look or play like grappling.

They could still include the game effects of grappling. Instead of a grapple, someone may have their ability to move, use weapons above 'light' size, spellcasting, and other actions restricted. Instead of a pin, a trip to knock the target prone could accomplish the same thing.

Honestly, that is what I am expecting. I fully understand the difficulty involved with making this happen. But It would be a great selling point for the game, simply because it is really only common in fighting games or beat-em ups, not MMOs.


Aside from stealthy types, rogue, ranger, I will roll a monk if they aren't gimped to ineffectiveness. I guess all those episodes of Kung Fu with David Carradine that I used to watch when I was a kid made me favor the class (role) :). They have such a unique style and their abilities are just fun to play.

I would love to see a cool monk archetype. Maybe small units composed of all monks on the battlefield that could serve as a mobile strike force to be sent to help units that are in trouble. Their wide sweeping kicks and attacks would look wicked during a battle :D


Perhaps I'm being naive, but I don't see why this would be that much more expensive than the different animations for different spells or other attacks. It would basically be 2 stances (offensive and defensive grappler) with a very small number of additional animations for grapple-based special attacks. This seems very similar in scope to the active combat stances plus a wide array of additional animations for various attacks, blocks, spells, etc. Seems like an interesting niche market to corner in MMOs.


Nikita Diira wrote:
Perhaps I'm being naive, but I don't see why this would be that much more expensive than the different animations for different spells or other attacks. It would basically be 2 stances (offensive and defensive grappler) with a very small number of additional animations for grapple-based special attacks. This seems very similar in scope to the active combat stances plus a wide array of additional animations for various attacks, blocks, spells, etc. Seems like an interesting niche market to corner in MMOs.

it would require not only special animations for the person doing the grappling and the person being grappled, but possibly a special user interface for the defended to be able to break the grapple, the offender to maintain the grapple, and what to do once grappled would have to be factored in, then they would have to try to balance it, figure out where it would fit in for army combat. there is a reason no mmo has a full one grapple system yet, it is just to difficult to implement in the scope of massively multiplayer games, or too expensive, or to imbalanced.

The closet i have seen has been done in Blade & Soul which you can see in this video of the kung fu master class

Goblin Squad Member

You know, since combat is based on a stamina system, it essentially has turns. Grappling could be accomplished in a game like this.


Darsch wrote:
Nikita Diira wrote:
Perhaps I'm being naive, but I don't see why this would be that much more expensive than the different animations for different spells or other attacks. It would basically be 2 stances (offensive and defensive grappler) with a very small number of additional animations for grapple-based special attacks. This seems very similar in scope to the active combat stances plus a wide array of additional animations for various attacks, blocks, spells, etc. Seems like an interesting niche market to corner in MMOs.
it would require not only special animations for the person doing the grappling and the person being grappled, but possibly a special user interface for the defended to be able to break the grapple, the offender to maintain the grapple, and what to do once grappled would have to be factored in, then they would have to try to balance it, figure out where it would fit in for army combat. there is a reason no mmo has a full one grapple system yet, it is just to difficult to implement in the scope of massively multiplayer games, or too expensive, or to imbalanced.

I don't see how a "special interface" would be any different than what happens in WoW when you go into stealth--same interface, really, just different bindings when you move into a grapple. Now, implementing it in "army combat," as you put it, would be interesting because there are rules for attacking a person who is being grappled by (or grappling with) a third person and they pretty much screw both parties versus outside attack, so if you plan to be a grappler, be ready to be ambushed.

Goblin Squad Member

The real issue with a grappling system is with the models. You need two sets animations (grappler/target) for each type of model (size/shape). So that's six animations just for small, medium, and large human-shaped enemies. Then you throw in additional ones that technically fall into those categories, but are sufficiently oddly proportioned as to require different animations, like trolls. Plus all the various models of animals, and other oddities.

Each set would have to include the actual grapple, the animation for being grappled, grappled attacks (armed and unarmed), breaking grapple, and any additional options you have during grapple that I couldn't think of at the moment. And all of that breaks down totally if people can adjust their height/weight/build via sliders.

Goblin Squad Member

The proportions should be that big of an obstacle though, should it? Couldn't the same animations be used but with proportions uniformly magnified or miniaturized?

Goblin Squad Member

If the base model has arms that are 25% the length of it's body, and an alternate model has arms that are 50% of the length of it's body, it would result in all sorts of crazy clipping issues.

Edit: Additionally *how* a creature grapples something X size categories above or below it would be different. For two human shaped medium creatures, it might be a hands on shoulder clinch. For a Huge humanshaped creature grabbing a small one, it might just be wrapping a fist around them. With that size differential, the same clinch you use for medium-medium would look absurd.

Scarab Sages Goblin Squad Member

Especially since shoulder height for a small character is about waist high for a medium sized one. While grabbing the groin may be an effective grapple, I don't think that is what we want the default grapple for small characters to be.

Goblin Squad Member

I dunno, it seems an appropriate tactic for goblins.

Goblin Squad Member

Yow!

Maybe I need to rethink the whole soloing thing...maybe take up crafting...

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