Help with Commoner, Expert, Aristocrat


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Goblin Squad Member

Can someone explain more about the Commoner, Expert, Aristrocrat system?

Are they groups of skills you can spend XP on? Can you train skills in all three or is it some kind of "class" you choose as you start to level?

Thanks

Goblin Squad Member

Commoner gathers resources.
Expert crafts products from resources.
Aristocrat is a social creature, builds buildings and guides settlements.

Scarab Sages Goblin Squad Member

You use XP to buy skills and abilities for any class - the 11 classes from the Core book and the three NPC classes. As you gain various skills from XP and achievement badges in gmae you unlock "levels" in your class. It's the same for the NPC classes as the other classes.

Goblin Squad Member

Soldack Keldonson wrote:
Are they groups of skills you can spend XP on? Can you train skills in all three or is it some kind of "class" you choose as you start to level?

In PFO, you won't pick a Class and level up the same way you do in other games.

At any point, you can train skills from an entirely different Role (class). You can do this just to pick up a few neat skills you want, or you can completely change your entire character and start pursuing a completely different concept. That choice is yours, and it's never too late to change your mind.

Commoner, Expert, and Aristocrat are Roles in much the same way that Paladin, Cleric, and Wizard are. They're basically groups of skills, like you said, and if you have enough of the skills in a particular group (Role), you'll get bonuses to doing whatever that Role does.

Goblin Squad Member

Commoner, Expert, and Aristocrat are Roles in much the same way that Paladin, Cleric, and Wizard are. They're basically groups of skills, like you said, and if you have enough of the skills in a particular group (Role), you'll get bonuses to doing whatever that Role does.

Thats what I had hoped.

In the blog he had said "All players will start out as Level 1 Commoners, even before choosing to follow another role, and can slot some feats that improve gathering and harvesting."

I wish he had said "even before choosing to follow ADDITIONAL roles" instead of ANOTHER role.

Goblin Squad Member

Soldack Keldonson wrote:
I wish he had said "even before choosing to follow ADDITIONAL roles" instead of ANOTHER role.

Communication is tricky. It's easy to be Misunderstood; especially when we're not able to read the speaker's body language and facial expressions.

Goblin Squad Member

I was all set to play a single class character until this blog. I saw Aristocrat and went, "ah crap, there's no way I can't get that too!"

I'm excited that they have defined those new class roles and look forward to the abilities they give each of them.

Goblin Squad Member

I believe the idea is that you have only a single active role at a time, to simulate the cap-stone ability concept. Just because you continue training Commoner skills, does not mean you have Commoner Role benefits if you are currently considering yourself in a Role such as Fighter.

Goblin Squad Member

Though generally npc classes, they have always been legitimate player choices in both 3.5 and pathfinder PnP if the DM allowed them, the classes were in the core books / SRD. It was just an uncommon choice as those classes were not really as suited to adventuring as the core classes.

On the other hand some of my power gaming friends in 3.5 actually used levels of Aristocrat in some of their builds to gain martial/heavy armor without using fighter. A level of Expert for example let you choose any 10 skills ideal for meeting some tricky prestige class entry requirements.

Pathfinder SRD:

Aristocrat
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/npc-classes/aristocrat

Commoner
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/npc-classes/commoner

Expert
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/npc-classes/expert

Goblin Squad Member

I could be wrong, but much like the eleven class archetypes, I suspect the Commoners, Experts and Aristocrats will have archetypes as well.

Not sure what the Commoners might be, but if you think about gathering resources you could have a botanist/herbalist (gathers herbs, friut, nuts, other gatherables), entomologist (bees for honey, worms for silk, etc), farmer, lumberjack, miner, quarryman and shepherd/herdsman.

Experts are crafters, so expanding on the above examples you could have actors, alchemists, animal trainers/tamers (bronco busters, falconers, dog and wardog trainer), artificers, artists, bookbinders, brewers, butchers, carpenters/woodworkers, cartwrights/wainwrights, cooks, coopers, engineers (sappers/seigemaster/architect), fishermen, furriers, gardeners, glassblowers, hunters/trappers, leatherworkers, merchants, millers, minstrels/musicians, potters, scribes, smiths (black, copper, gold, silver, etc), spellcrafters, stonemasons, tailors and weavers. There are many more professions when you start dissecting the adventurers' needs for weapons, armor and accessories (armorsmith, bowyer/fletcher, shieldsmith, etc).

Aristocrats could be agents, ambassadors, assassins, castellans, diplomats, explorers (historically these were almost always political assignments), sheriffs and spies.

Many of these might have archetypes as well, adding another 2 1/2 years to your long term training queue . (Well, these might not be as long, but if you wanted to earn the associated "Capstone" benefit, maybe you would have to follow this system.)

Add more to this list!

Goblin Squad Member

While the NPC classes were on a whole, less powerful than the base classes, Aristocrat actually had some neat features to make it not a half bad choice. In fact, if given a few abilities along the way it and expert wouldn't be so bad for PCs to take.

As always, the choice is up to the player, of course, so they were playable.

Scarab Sages Goblin Squad Member

Even the Adept isn't half-bad for a PC class if you look at the spell list. They are basically a divine Cleric/Wizard that only needs one spell stat and gets full caster level. If you took a few levels of Fighter to get armor, a couple of feats, and BAB you could have an really unique character that would be effective and fun to play.

Goblin Squad Member

Imbicatus wrote:
Even the Adept isn't half-bad for a PC class if you look at the spell list. They are basically a divine Cleric/Wizard that only needs one spell stat and gets full caster level. If you took a few levels of Fighter to get armor, a couple of feats, and BAB you could have an really unique character that would be effective and fun to play.

Yeah, if armor and martial weapons end up being non-class skills in PFO you could knock up a cross between an Arcane Gish and a Battle Cleric pretty easily.

Goblin Squad Member

Lifedragn wrote:
I believe the idea is that you have only a single active role at a time, to simulate the cap-stone ability concept. Just because you continue training Commoner skills, does not mean you have Commoner Role benefits if you are currently considering yourself in a Role such as Fighter.

I haven't seen anything to imply this is the case. The last I recall was that you can slot any abilities you have trained. *If* they are all from the same archetype, you get a "Devotion" bonus. That was the replacement for Capstones.

Goblin Squad Member

Lifedragn wrote:
I believe the idea is that you have only a single active role at a time, to simulate the cap-stone ability concept. Just because you continue training Commoner skills, does not mean you have Commoner Role benefits if you are currently considering yourself in a Role such as Fighter.

Dario is correct. There is nothing to limit anyone to "a single active role at a time". You will definitely be able to slot abilities from multiple roles; you just gain a special benefit if all of your slotted abilities are from the same role.

Shadow Lodge Goblin Squad Member

@Imbicatus, I believe that Adepts get 1/2 spell progression, maxing out with 5th level spells at high level.

I believe Botanist would be an Expert, not a commoner. A Commoner archetype might be Miner, or Lumberjack. Perhaps Farmer/Gardener and some kind of Animal Husbandry type archetype.

Scarab Sages Goblin Squad Member

theStormWeaver wrote:

@Imbicatus, I believe that Adepts get 1/2 spell progression, maxing out with 5th level spells at high level.

Yes, but their 5th level spell list contains spells that are 6th level in other classes like Heal. They have full caster level, and their spells contain spells that are usually Arcane as Divine spells so they can be cast while wearing armor. They are a better choice for a Wizard/Cleric than a multiclass Wizard/Cleric based on caster level unless you use the Mystic Theurge PrC. Yes, it's less powerful than a PC class. You don't get domains or spontaneous casting. You don't get bonus metamagic feats. You have no armor prof and a poor BAB. But it is powerful enough to still be fun to play in a PnP game.

Goblin Squad Member

Lifedragn wrote:
I believe the idea is that you have only a single active role at a time, to simulate the cap-stone ability concept. Just because you continue training Commoner skills, does not mean you have Commoner Role benefits if you are currently considering yourself in a Role such as Fighter.

This is how I understand it, as well.

CEA (Commoners, Experts & Aristrocrats) technically are not labeled as Archetypes, but I believe (and hope) will be treated the same way. If you are raising Commoner 5, you also don’t have Fighter 5 raising at the same time.

Edit:

Nihimon wrote:


Dario is correct. There is nothing to limit anyone to "a single active role at a time". You will definitely be able to slot abilities from multiple roles; you just gain a special benefit if all of your slotted abilities are from the same role.

Ok, I stand corrected. And I’m fine with this, as long as CEA is treated the same as the class archetypes in that respect.

Scarab Sages Goblin Squad Member

Hobbun wrote:
Lifedragn wrote:
I believe the idea is that you have only a single active role at a time, to simulate the cap-stone ability concept. Just because you continue training Commoner skills, does not mean you have Commoner Role benefits if you are currently considering yourself in a Role such as Fighter.

This is how I understand it, as well.

CEA (Commoners, Experts & Aristrocrats) technically are not labeled as Archetypes, but I believe (and hope) will be treated the same way. If you are raising Commoner 5, you also don’t have Fighter 5 raising at the same time.

You aren't directly raising any archetype bonuses. Instead you may be learning Gather Lumber 3, which when combined with Thresh Hay 3 and Mine Iron 3 will allow you to unlock Commoner 3. Likewise, a Fighter will Learn Swords 3, Power Attack 3, Shield Block 3, and Cleave 3 and will unlock Fighter 3.

If someone learns all these skills, they can then get a focus dedication bonus if thy only slot commoner abilities or only fighter abilities. But they can forgo that bonus and slot Commoner and Fighter abilities at the same time to be able to fight effectively and gather resources if they come across any while out of town.

Goblin Squad Member

Hobbun wrote:
CEA (Commoners, Experts & Aristrocrats) technically are not labeled as Archetypes, but I believe (and hope) will be treated the same way.

Technically, nothing is labeled as an "Archetype" anymore. They ditched that terminology in favor of "Role", and all three of these new Roles are indeed explicitly labeled as Roles.

From Goblinworks Blog: Begin the Beguine:

Quote:
There may not be 11 "roles" (we're changing the term to avoid confusion with archetypes in the tabletop game) on release.

[Edit]

Hobbun wrote:
I’m fine with this, as long as CEA is treated the same as the class archetypes in that respect.

I think they probably will be, and I think that's probably a good thing. At least, I'm confident that if they are treated the same, there will be cool abilities that make that fun.

Goblin Squad Member

Ok, thank you Nihimon, I was not aware of that change.

Goblin Squad Member

Hobbun wrote:
Ok, thank you Nihimon, I was not aware of that change.

Very glad to help. Although, sometimes in those quiet moments of self-reflection, it's a little embarrassing how much attention I've been paying...

Liberty's Edge Goblin Squad Member

It's ok Nihimon, we wont judge you for it... at least not publicly... wait... Isn't there a thread about that somewhere?....
^_^

Shadow Lodge Goblin Squad Member

Commoner might be Strength/Dex based skills.
Expert will probably be intelligence based.
Aristocrat will likely be Charisma based.

So something tells me Bards Priests Sorcs and Paladins will all be Aristocrats.

Goblin Squad Member

Decorus wrote:

Commoner might be Strength/Dex based skills.

Expert will probably be intelligence based.
Aristocrat will likely be Charisma based.

So something tells me Bards Priests Sorcs and Paladins will all be Aristocrats.

... and gnome wizards will tend to be experts.

Goblin Squad Member

OK, we (the game players) need aristocrats to build settlements. Experts are needed to craft things, but level of rogue are better skilled (maybe better craftsmen are also thieves?). Do players have to give up fighter levels to have aristocrat level to found new settlements.

I am still uncertain about how skill improvement trades with merit badges. I work and do not have the hours that some (Ni?) can devote to this. Ultimately, that may hamper my game play.

Goblin Squad Member

@Lam "merit badges" are some of the prerequisites that are needed to train certain skills. Other prerequisites might include: ability scores, lower lvl skills, "class path lvls", etc...

Goblin Squad Member

Lam wrote:
...level of rogue are better skilled...

I've not yet seen that there's going to be any role-equivalent of "thieves get more skill points, fighters get fewer". That's another tabletop convention PFO won't carry forward.

We'll all earn XP at the same rate, and we can all spend them as we choose, when we choose, on what we choose. Subject to pre-requisites, probably of multiple types.

Goblin Squad Member

Lots of peeps are still thinking in terms of Classes, which is causing problems understanding how a free skill and ability selection works.

Don't think Pathfinder (ironically) or D&D3.5, think GURPS or Hero System.

You aren't a Rogue 'Class' who has to take Rogue-labelled skills and abilities, you are a Rogue 'Role' - an open-ended character who has chosen to take more Rogue-appropriate skills than (say) Clerical or Wizardy ones. You want to be a light, agile fencer, or wise-cracking conman, but you do that by taking role-appropriate skills rather than taking a Rogue 'Class'.

As I see it (and I may be wrong), the Capstone is available if all the skills and abilities you have chosen up to that lofty point are the sort of skills that the designers have decided are appropriate to the old-fashioned Rogue Class or Archetype. Their thinking is that it will encourage players to stick to a narrow focus rather take useful skills that are outside the Pathfinder/D&D traditional view of that role's remit.

Goblin Squad Member

Sadurian wrote:
...As I see it (and I may be wrong), the Capstone is available if all the skills and abilities you have chosen up to that lofty point are the sort of skills that the designers have decided are appropriate to the old-fashioned Rogue Class or Archetype...

My understanding is it is even less restrictive than that. You can use the archetype's capstone ability if all the skills you have slotted are those of the desired class archetype. So I could train both fighter and clerical skills and mix/match them, but if I slot only clerical, even while having fighter skills, then I could use the clerical capstone. What counts is what you are prepared to do no matter what you have trained.

Goblin Squad Member

Jazzlvraz wrote:
Lam wrote:
...level of rogue are better skilled...

I've not yet seen that there's going to be any role-equivalent of "thieves get more skill points, fighters get fewer". That's another tabletop convention PFO won't carry forward.

that's easy enough to fix if you want, by balancing xp costs for skills/abilities and the requirements for class level badges:

example (for illustration purposes only)

Ftr1 (1000xp total)
200xp for BAB +1
200xp for heavy armor prof
100xp for shield prof
200xp for martial wpn prof
200xp fighter hitpoints and saves
100xp for 2 skills @ 50xp each

Rog1 (1000xp total)
300xp for sneak attack 1d6
100xp for light armor prof
100xp for rogue wpn prof
100xp for rogue hitpoints and saves
400xp for 8 skills @ 50xp each

In practice, I expect that rogue levels will require high stats (gained by training many skills) rather than many specific skills.

EDIT: and Being is correct wrt dedication bonuses. You can train in all the classes, the dedicatias on bonus comes from performing a single role at a time. The Ftr/Cle can sign on as tank or a healer for a dungeon crawl and be dedicated to the role - but loses the dedication bonus when trying to juggle both simultaneously.

Goblin Squad Member

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Lam wrote:
I work and do not have the hours that some (Ni?) can devote to this.

Hey! I work, too :)

Goblin Squad Member

1 person marked this as a favorite.

<glum>If I enjoy how I make a living, it isn't work.</glum>

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