High-level play has sucked in every variant of D&D produced to date and PF2 shows no signs of breaking that trend based on the current rule set.
In your experience. My group has successfully and happily played a dozen or so campaigns up to 20th level with Pathfinder. It's been a blast and honestly I've thought that the focus on the lower level end of the power spectrum was a little limiting and honestly boring.
I play this game to play heroes. Big, bold, bright stars that make a difference. Now, if you don't dig that, it's easy enough to limit your game to the lower tier options. But it's harder to play what isn't provided.
Mark Seifter wrote:
So while everyone is welcome to express their opinions however they like and I will do my levelheaded best to read them all and analyze them in an unbiased fashion, being less hostile is probably a way to increase your chance of success (basically, Diplomacy works better than Intimidation at getting ideas across for someone to change the way they are...
That makes total sense. People should be aware that if they act beastly that the impact of their words will be lessened due to their vitriol. And if they aren't aware of that well....tough poots on them.
The thing is, hostility to 2e is legitimate feedback. There is a portion of the fan-base that want to have nothing to do with this new edition. They get to vocalize this. And Pathfinder should want them to so they can be aware that there could be some impact to the size of the audience they're selling to.
Trying to dismiss that voice isn't going to help 2e at all. It's simply trying to deny that 2e might not have the same number of fans that 1e did.
The Rot Grub wrote:
That's a player/gm issue, not a rules issue. Once PF2 has been around for a couple of years there will be these same combos and the like. Because Paizo will create new content and someone with the eye for it will figure out how to work it into something truly impressive.
Changing the rules isn't going to change the people. It only gives Paizo a chance to sell us much of the same, but with modified mechanics. Which is smart for them. They are a business. They gotta sell to be successful.
The Rot Grub wrote:
I think you have hit on exactly what the disconnect is for the OP.
He wants to have fun. He wants to play a wild and loose game with lots of options at his fingertips. He wants to be able to come up with a concept and through delving into the rules find a way to make it happen.
And PF2 isn't about that. It's designed for you. For PFS play. It's designed to put a brake on the wild and wooly designs. See, no design can break a game. You're the GM, you have everything under your control, you have the entire universe at your fingertips. But, if you don't want to have to study as much as the player does, if you don't want to have to keep up with all the various options out there then it can be difficult to keep the game balanced. So you, and others, look to Paizo to do it for you.
And they have. Slammed a big fat brake on the way options and the like can be applied. Limit starting stats. Hamstring what "multi-classing" actually means. Etc. Etc.
And to you, this is a good thing. And that's fine. You can run the game that you enjoy and possibly that your players enjoy. But it's not going to be fun for OP.
The change in the rules isn't for everyone. Some folks will be just better off finding a group that is sticking with PF1.
On the kickstarter page there is an interesting review...so far the only very negative one I've seen anywhere.
My review and you apparently have issue with my having a differing opinion so I'll expand on it.
As for feats, archetypes, etc I would like to see the crunch necessary to create a specifically Mythos game since that what this book was supposed to be for, The Pathfinder Cthulhu Mythos Book. So I was expecting a lot of specificly tailored character options that would allow you to create a Wizard, Alchemist, Investigator, etc that was something unique to the setting.
No, despite what has been suggested, I'm not looking for the opportunity to starting ticking off Great Old Ones from my hit list. But stating that the Mythos should be "unknown" and that there shouldn't be specific crunch to address it leads me to this question: Why have the book? Nothing specific for the characters? I don't need the book then. I have the stories and I can use them and adopt them as I see fit if we're just going to leave it as unknowable.
And the art was HUGE to me. If you are going to sell me a bestiary I want decent art. The concept art for those figs would have been better than what was presented. This Kickstarter raised a huge amount of money. The figs sold were pre-created options from another Kickstarter from what I understand. Nothing new there, probably just some left overs or just a new run. The book itself, so very much of it is based on previously existing information. It is simply an adaptation of what has been in existence for decades, so the work that went into this book is adaptation of pre-existing information into Pathfinder Language and presentation of this information though art and layout.
And of those three the layout is lovely. The crunch and art, disappointing.
If you disagree, that's fine. We're all folks. I'm glad you're happy with it. I'm not.
By being awesome. Fun. Effective. Full of flavor and style.
... and nexus, since those classes offered a much broader chassis that could support a lot more playstyles and concepts. Now that the zodiac is available, there should be very few akashic concepts that don't have significant support, from defensive nature casters to versatile summoners to full on wizard replacements.
Nexus rules so hard.
Well I got my hardcover in the mail yesterday and i've been looking it over. As far as subject matter I'm relatively happy. I like that ghouls areva playable race and not undead. The zoog seem interesting but i wonder why they didnt get a single feat.
The feats are a little limited. Of 17 feats 12 are based on the three new racial options. Some interesting spells, alchemical items and unusual magic items.
I am of two minds about the section on the Great Old Ones and the bestiary. The creature design is pretty tight and very broad. But the "artwork" is extremely disappointing. Pictures of the miniatures from the kickstarter adorned with only passable paintjobs. And since the pictures are so enlarged the quality of the paintjob comes off even worse.
Honestly the art is so dissapointing i don't know if i would have purchased it. I honestly expected more with this being over a year passed the initial promise date.
If only characters only had to worry about hit points, yes, Vitalist could be considered OP. But, nope. Imagine the party runs into some Shadows. Strength damage. Now take a look at the powers available to a Vitalist and help the party handle that in combat. Vitalists do hit points GREAT. But negative statuses and ability damage? Yeah....not so much. It's a nice balancing aspect.
Canadian Bakka wrote:
Yeah, I have some of the NNW stuff. But I'm looking less for Mythic Items and more the Legendary Abilities you can add to items when you chose the Legendary Item mythic power option from the Universal Path. Thanks though.
Lost Spheres Publishing wrote:
So we are looking at something that A) Can be used by non-spellcasters and B) Can be used to travel dimensions and planets?
Since it looks like the book is more setting heavy I would be surprised if there was going to be any new classes.
Funny you should ask! Something nifty this way comes by way of Lost Spheres. Very planarly, I suspect as it's been described it will fit beautifully into most planar campaigns. And, so far they've revealed one core-class (available to backers for playtest) and two races. More has been teased.
Hi. I'm a play-tester for the City of 7 Seraphs. Yeah...it fits real well as an add in to any homebrew. Since it's on the Plane of Shadow (one of the Transitive Planes) it's way easier to see it as being more "connected" and "available" when compared to places a little more planarly far-afield.
Also, part of the story is that the Lattice, the road on which the City is based, was very damaged quite some time ago and has been in a state of repair. So it's a super simple declaration of "Hey, the portal plaza that connects to Setting A has just been fixed. Welcome to the new, shadowy, kewl, awesome."
Orfamay Quest wrote:
There is. Freedom of speech only seemas to apply to those who agree with the regressive left. Talk smack about the evils of Christianity, conservatism, misogyny, etc, and you're A-Ok. Start to argue against any allowed leftist talking points and you're a horrible person who should be forced to shut up.
Thank you for that. I do go there to check stuff out for buying. Do you know of any not on that site? It seems it's more common for 3pp to not be on it than on it.
Much respect to Forest Guardian here. And thank you for pointing out that yes, there are more steps to the process than I understood. Like I said, I don't want to be a jerk here. I really enjoy 3pp stuff. Use it in all my games. Currently running a Direlock and an Aegis in the two campaigns I'm playing in and one of the characters in the campaign I'm running is well..a WHOLE bunch of stuff, a lot of it 3pp.
Oh, I never meant print run stuff. I completely get that there can be a very cost-prohibitive aspect to that. I only meant pdfs.
And PDG, yes I have had "communication" with two of the publishers to the point that yes, I know they're aware of the issues. Which is why I asked. But some of these answers above at least let me know what might be happening. Thanks.
This is not me trying to put anyone on blast. That is completly not my intention. But I want to know something that has been bothering me. There are a number of products I've purchased from a number of folks that have had issues. Editing problems. Missing Data. Incorrect data. That sort of thing. And these are products that are a couple to a few years old. And I find out that the creator's of said products are aware of the issues, have been for some time.
So, here is my quandry.
I like the 3PP stuff. I really do. And I want to continue to purchase it, but as the guy who is shelling out the cash I'd love to know why this sort of thing doesn't seem uncommon. I'm goign to assume there is something about the process that makes it reletively a pain in the neck to update these items. Or that after X amount of time sales go down to the point where updates aren't cost effective. Or that changing a pdf with all the layout stuff is a major pain in the neck. I don't know.
But I'd really like to. I have sort of developed this "Well, if X or Y doesn't care enough to update this stuff I'm not sure I care enough to continue to buy their products" and I don't want to be in that frame of mind. I like a lot of what I've bought and I'd like to continue to buy more.
Okay, I know I have asked about cross-pollination of 3pp stuff before but this one doesn't seem like such a big deal and I'm curious if any 3pp would be willing to do it?
If you create classes as part of your offering what about creating the Favored Class benefits not just for the core races, but races from other 3pp? Or visa versa?
I ask because as I sat last night, putting together my Lizardfolk (from Kobold Press) Aegis (from Dreamscarred) I sighed yet again that I had only the base options for favored class bonus.
My group uses 3pp and we don't only use 3pp from one publisher, I doubt most people who have embraced 3pp restrict themselves to just one publisher. And a little cross company support is only going to encourage me to buy more.
I'm loving Liber Influxus Communis. Some fun new classes to really expand playing options outside of the accepted archetypes.
Still a big fan of of It Came from the Stars. Love the flavor and the style. Still hoping for more.
I don't think I'd enjoy playing Mythic if it wasn't for Mythic Paths of the Lost Spheres. I thought the mythic options were horrendously limited when they came out and this book really opened it up for me. I'm still hoping for more.
I'm one who doesn't really enjoy replaying classes but The Genius Guide to the Godling is one I have revisted a number of times and the only reason I'm not playing it in the current campaign is it was disallowed (for flavor reasons).
Lastly I have to shout out Thunderscape. The Golemoid, the Fallen, the races, the gadgets, love it all.
I don't know if I have a top ten but there are a number of 3pp products that merely whet my appetite for more of the same.
1. It Came From the Stars. I want more symbiot feats, more equipment, more monsters and more MORE.
2. Mythic Paths of the Lost Spheres. I want more. My major beef with the Mythic Paths provided is I more often had characters that fell outside the presented archetypes than in. Lost Spheres opened it up so that you could really play Mythic without having to have such a limited box of toys to choose from. Want more.
3. Deep Magic. Good book. Big Book. But a big book with lots of concepts only slightly explored. I want more Ooze Magic. I want more Clockwork Magic. I want more of all the awesome presented within. And I'd also like some of the missing spells.
4. Divine Channeler. A favorite of my group. I'd love to see options for the subdomains so we can get even more play out of this class.
I enjoy using as both a player and DM 3pp races, classes, archetypes, spells, feats and occasionally magic items. I've grabbed a couple of Campaign settings but that's for the races, classes, etc included therein.
I don't tend to use monsters for an absurd reason: Art. Paizo spoiled me when it comes to presenting new monsters with really awesome portraits and the lower quality of most 3pp art turns me off. Like I said, I know it's an absurd reason. Art is expensive as hell to add in to a book, and a monster book is more art heavy than most.
I never use Adventure Paths, but that's across the board, Paizo and 3pp.
Now, that's what I use, what do I use them FOR? Increased options. A wider array for my players to pick from so that they can play the characters they want to play. Playing a Conduit, Godling or Vizier is significantly different enough from the Paizo offerings that they bring an appreciated diversity to our games.
Stormagedon Dark Lord of All wrote:
Ummm...this is the 3pp area of the boards.
All that aside, are the other players having an issue with it? Maybe they enjoy their characters and don't mind having an Alpha rock the most damage. Is he fun and a good add to the table? Then likely he's bringing more than he's taking away.
So I have a player who is going to be doing a Rainbow Character for an upcoming campaign. No more than one level in any one class. Multiclassing taken to its most extreme. So he is going to be using Jakc of All Trades to ensure the character has some value and oomph when things get grumpy.
And for the most part I'm fine with the feat.
But I have some questions. I mean, giving Sneak Attack character level strength is cool, but given the pre-reqs for the feat a reasonable level of cool. But what about a Summoner? Does the Eidolon get the same treatment? RAR I'd say yes but I honestly see a very different level in value between character level Sneak and character level Eidolon.
How about the Aegis from Dreamscarred? I can easily see not getting power points as those are much like spell slots and JoaT doesn't give caster levels. But does the Aegis get customization points for their psi-armor?
I'd really appreciate your input on this.