What is there to look forward to at Higher levels in 2e?

[ChaosTicket]

Ive already basically made this same thing 4-5 times on Facebook, so why not be a masochist and make it here too?

My greatest concern with the Pathfinder 2 playtest right now are the changes to magic, and the lack of support for Martial classes. Magic Classes have fewer spells per day overall, fewer spells per tier, Bonus Spells Per Day have been completely removed, individual spells have been changed to have fixed effects that down grow with Caster level. Oh and Spontaneous Casters now have to learn the same spell multiple times at different tiers while they have a limit on their maximum spells known.

Special abilities like Magic are really the crutch to keep me going through stories and taking all the game challengers.
5th Edition Dungeons and Dragons did similar, but the Martial Classes there seem better at lower levels at least.

So I looked at Martial classes to see if they got anything new and interesting.
Martial classes havent gained anything great to make them more interesting. I think theyve actually gotten weaker. There are no new Stances, manuevers, or "Epic Martial Moves" like dispatching an enemy in one hit, and even the old ones like Monk's Quivering Palm got nerfed(it only works on a critical now?)

So I really dont know what there really is to do in the games. I always just looked forward to gaining new powers, especially spells. Without those things...what is there?

I dont think Pathfinder 2 is aiming for people like me as a demographic. Who is it aiming for?

[Moro]

Bigger numbers.

[Eric Stelle]

My gut tells me that the spell lists are really trimmed down for the purposes of the play test. You're basically testing a few things with the spell list now... heightening mechanic for example... but admixture options (for example) on a fireball aren't there. For purposes of this play test, it's pretty much just "area damage spell" and so on rather than the flavorful, higher level things that do "damage and persistent burn" or what have you.

When you look at it, there's a lot of redundancy between spell lists that I would hope becomes more distinct as we get closer to the final product.

That's my take on it at least. A cleric might have the Heal spell heightened to every level (presuming he can't channel or maybe on top of one who can).

The one that bothers me is heightening shield. Unless you're an elf and can spam it every round, nobody's really going to prepare that spell at a heightened level at the expense of some other third level spell.

[Zman0]

You don’t have to heighten cantrips, they are automatically cast at your highest spell level. So shield just worlds at its best level. Always.

Martials are weaker at low levels? Hello three attacks at level 1?! Martials have a variety of mixed action types with Opens and presses etc that should keep them interesting. The three action mechanic and greater combat mobility martials should keep themselves busy and feel more engaging that standard/dull round actions.

Magic uses have auto scaling canteips to keep relevant. With a magic weapon they can toss out level appropriate damage. Toss out a two action spell and make a single strike rough on par with the fighters -5MAP attack.

I do have my complaints about heightening and preparing etc. I wish it followed the 5e magic model there. But as far as spells per level, they are doing just fine. Also, because of how DCs scale, lower level spells are often more useful than in 3.P.

[Mathmuse]

I want my high-level player characters to slay the Nemean lion, who would transform into a woman to fool heroes. I want them to slay the Lernaean Hydra, who grew a new head for each one cut off and one head was immortal. I want them to capture alive the Ceryneian Hind, which was so fast that it could outrun an arrow. I want them, if they accidentally poison a friend while hunting the Erymanthian Boar, to be able to cure the poison. I want them to clean the Augean stables by some fantastic stunt such as redirecting a river through it. They don't need to perform all 12 labors of Hercules, just enough to show off.

In my Pathfinder campaigns, my players' characters at high levels created a new island in the bay south of Riddleport and pulled the Runeforge out of the astral plane and into the real world. My players' characters went to Minkai on the other side of the world, put the lost empress on the throne, and found ways to re-establish the other four royal families, too. My players' characters, in the crashed starship Divinity, stopped Unity from attaining evil godhood by figuring out on the fly the secrets of the stardrive and taking Unity to distant planet Androffa for trial. Those same player characters (or their descendents for the short-lived humans) will be waiting in orbit when the invasion fleet of the Dominon of the Black arrives. Some of these details were in the modules, and some were from the players taking control of the narrative.

All it took was some clever planning, a few strong utility spells, a few good skill rolls at the right time, and the combat abilities to stay alive to that right time. I have not checked the high-level utility spells in Pathfinder 2nd Edition yet. The skill system, unfortunately, is gated so that legendary skill checks are only possible via feats that have legendary proficiency as a prerequisite and no-one has written those feats yet and if someone wrote them no-one would know to study them in advance.

[Isaac Zephyr]

Zman0 wrote:

Martials are weaker at low levels? Hello three attacks at level 1?!

While this is true, there is a problem with this. Assuming you're a Fighter, your attack bonus will be Level+Prof+Attribute, which at level 1 will cap at 6. Because of the 50% chance to succeed mentality that the game uses, the AC of a level 1 creature ballparks 15 (I had the book open to Goblin Dog as an example). The first swing hits on a 9 or better, the second on 14 or better due to the -5, and the third needs 19 or better due to the other -5.

So having the option to do something and actually being able to do it are VERY different things. Comparatively let's look at two other current games. In Starfinder all characters can attack twice out the gate at -4 per strike, and can take certain feats to lower this. Now AC in Starfinder/Pathfinder varies a little more, but most humanoids will balpark about 13. That same maxed Soldier with +4 in his primary stat, +1 from BAB, and we won't give him a feat. At +5 he hits on an 8 or better, or full attacking 12 or better on both, and when he gets higher level he's one of the classes that get more attacks, only increasing the penalty by 1.

In D&D 5e, some characters will get additional attacks using bonus actions at level 1, with no penalty, and others later will recieve multiple attacks each time they use the attack action, again without penalty.

The problem comes with PF2s design, in that the 50% hit rate stays consistent because their creature level directly ads to AC, the same as a PCs, and the PCs attack rate goes up at the same rate. He will need a magic weapon to stay capable, as stronger creatures in the 20 range can ballpark 40+ AC. So short of enemies 5-10 levels below your level (which you will sometimes face), multiple attacking will rarely if every lead to anything.

[Zman0]

Isaac Zephyr wrote:

Zman0 wrote:

Martials are weaker at low levels? Hello three attacks at level 1?!

While this is true, there is a problem with this. Assuming you're a Fighter, your attack bonus will be Level+Prof+Attribute, which at level 1 will cap at 6. Because of the 50% chance to succeed mentality that the game uses, the AC of a level 1 creature ballparks 15 (I had the book open to Goblin Dog as an example). The first swing hits on a 9 or better, the second on 14 or better due to the -5, and the third needs 19 or better due to the other -5.

So having the option to do something and actually being able to do it are VERY different things. Comparatively let's look at two other current games. In Starfinder all characters can attack twice out the gate at -4 per strike, and can take certain feats to lower this. Now AC in Starfinder/Pathfinder varies a little more, but most humanoids will balpark about 13. That same maxed Soldier with +4 in his primary stat, +1 from BAB, and we won't give him a feat. At +5 he hits on an 8 or better, or full attacking 12 or better on both, and when he gets higher level he's one of the classes that get more attacks, only increasing the penalty by 1.

In D&D 5e, some characters will get additional attacks using bonus actions at level 1, with no penalty, and others later will recieve multiple attacks each time they use the attack action, again without penalty.

The problem comes with PF2s design, in that the 50% hit rate stays consistent because their creature level directly ads to AC, the same as a PCs, and the PCs attack rate goes up at the same rate. He will need a magic weapon to stay capable, as stronger creatures in the 20 range can ballpark 40+ AC. So short of enemies 5-10 levels below your level (which you will sometimes face), multiple attacking will rarely if every lead to anything.

The majority of your attacks will be against lvl 0 enemies, not level 1 enemies at 1st level. Even against a lvl 1 enemy needing a 9/14/19 you're still getting on average .80 hits, .2 crits, and 1.0 misses. Crits don't require confirmation either. That is significantly better than the expected results with a full round attack in 3.P. The fighter could also attack with an agile weapon for their second and third attacks to change those percentages to 9/13/17. That gives them .95 hits, .2 crits and only .85 misses.

Yes, it holds 50%(Optimized Fighters end up more like 55%), but as you level you'll face a significant amount of enemies, for every level lower your enemy is than you their AC goes down ~1.5. So, when that fighter is level 3 and attacking a level 1 monster, still quite common, they will be hitting on 6/11/16 normally or 6/10/14 using an agile weapon for followups. Throw in something situational like Flanking etc and those numbers can look very good. Definitely has the potential to be useful. Things like Double slice on the followup attacks can be even better giving you 9/13/13 at first level with an agile weapon in the second hand. At 3rd vs a cr1 you'd get 6/10/10.

In P2, the third iterative attack really isn't very effective against an equal level enemy or an enemy that is higher level. Either way, we're talking about a lot more capability in a martial at low levels with an entirely different feel and play. Your assertion that multi-attacking will rarely lead to anything except against enemies 5-10 levels lower is laughably inaccurate. As I showed above, even two levels lower can be pretty significant, and you have more attacks and more effective attacks than a 3.P fighter stock even past 6th level.

In 5e there are bonus action attacks, and interestingly enough things like PAM can be quite unbalanced while the underlying math made TWF poor. 5e has far greater problems with martial balance than P2 does for a variety of reasons.

Every recent version of dnd, except 5e, has assumed magic weapons to stay competent. They bake in the assumptions of getting your magic weapons at 4/8/12/16/20. The assumptions are built into the game for attack bonus, AC, TAC, Saves, and Damage.

[Crayon]

High-level play has sucked in every variant of D&D produced to date and PF2 shows no signs of breaking that trend based on the current rule set.

[DataLoreRPG]

I have never enjoyed play above level 8 as much as I enjoy the journey going 1-8.

[Pramxnim]

Crayon wrote:

High-level play has sucked in every variant of D&D produced to date and PF2 shows no signs of breaking that trend based on the current rule set.

Perhaps we should wait until playtest data from high level parts of Doomsday Dawn before making sweeping judgments?

[EberronHoward]

I recently built a level 7 Paladin for the playtest, and the kind of treasure available to higher levels definitely change the dynamics of front-line fighters. Getting shields with greater hardness and dents changes how many times you can shield block, for instance.

[Zman0]

Crayon wrote:

High-level play has sucked in every variant of D&D produced to date and PF2 shows no signs of breaking that trend based on the current rule set.

I'm not sure that is entirely accurate. High level play might still suck, but I'm thinking its going to suck less in P2 compared to P1, 3.5, 5e. From a balance perspective(once they fix the systemic issues in the skill DC and monster skills) P2 is quite a bit better than the previous incarnations. I can't speak to high level 4e play and it has been a long time since I did anything resembling high level in 2nd.

When it comes to high level play its IMO 3.5<P1<5e<P2. At least high level play in P2 is less likely to be completely derailed by broken spells and damage is scaled reasonably so combat won't just be buffed up rocket tag. I count that for something.

[Pramxnim]

Zman0 wrote:

I can't speak to high level 4e play and it has been a long time since I did anything resembling high level in 2nd.

High level 4e play was great, if a bit slow sometimes. Characters feel powerful and can pull off really fun combos working together. I played a Swordmage from 1-30 and enjoyed every bit of it.

[ChaosTicket]

I did not expect this subject path.

Way back in 2nd edition Dungeons and Dragons, and strangely brought back in the 5th edition, is that additional attacks were/are made at FULL accuracy. 3rd edition Dungeons and Dragons instead made multiple attacks have penalties on subsequent attacks. the Pathfinder 2nd edition playtest skips the BAB requirement, but you still take penalties for multiple attacks per turn.

More attacks per turn isnt as beneficial as possible when your second attack is basically 1/2 as accurate, and your third attack in a turn is roughly 1/10th as accurate. By the third attack its better to be cautious as when you accuracy is the same rate as your chance to fumble the risk is beyond reasonable.

If anything it may aid enemy NPCs as they dont have to be concerned with fumbles, so now all enemies have about 3 attacks per turn.

Martial scaling is still bad partly because of that reason. The other reason is that enemies go up in durability greater than damage, so while you may see a Fighter or a Paladin doing very high damage at level 1, very quickly enemies starting taking more hits as player characters are at a disadvantage in attrition battles.

Characters need special abilities to effectively "One-shot" common enemies, have area of effect abilities, ranged abilities, and strong attacks against single tough targets.

[Zman0]

ChaosTicket wrote:

I did not expect this subject path.

Way back in 2nd edition Dungeons and Dragons, and strangely brought back in the 5th edition, is that additional attacks were/are made at FULL accuracy. 3rd edition Dungeons and Dragons instead made multiple attacks have penalties on subsequent attacks. the Pathfinder 2nd edition playtest skips the BAB requirement, but you still take penalties for multiple attacks per turn.

More attacks per turn isnt as beneficial as possible when your second attack is basically 1/2 as accurate, and your third attack in a turn is roughly 1/10th as accurate. By the third attack its better to be cautious as when you accuracy is the same rate as your chance to fumble the risk is beyond reasonable.

If anything it may aid enemy NPCs as they dont have to be concerned with fumbles, so now all enemies have about 3 attacks per turn.

Martial scaling is still bad partly because of that reason. The other reason is that enemies go up in durability greater than damage, so while you may see a Fighter or a Paladin doing very high damage at level 1, very quickly enemies starting taking more hits as player characters are at a disadvantage in attrition battles.

Characters need special abilities to effectively "One-shot" common enemies, have area of effect abilities, ranged abilities, and strong attacks against single tough targets.

And in 5e you don't get that second attack until 5th level. The damage of each successful hit does not scale as readily as in P2. As I showed above, your accuracy in practice isn't as bad as your are representing it. 5e has some serious problems with damage scaling and effective fighting styles and combat feats.

Better be cautious because of your beyond reasonable risk to fumble? Please, tell me, what exactly does a fumble do on an attack roll? Interestingly, according to the rules nothing different than a normal miss outside of some very few niche cases where it could trigger an enemy reaction and I can think of only one monster that has one.

PCs actually scale very well with monsters and a Fighter has only marginally lower HP and roughly equal if not superior damage. The lower HP is balanced by usually slightly higher AC. Characters are balanced off of a monster of equal level. They do not "need" the aforementioned special abilities to "One-shot" common enemies.

[Jason S]

ChaosTicket wrote:

I dont think Pathfinder 2 is aiming for people like me as a demographic. Who is it aiming for?

I have a lot of complaints about PF2 and I agree with you about magic, but a lot of your other concerns aren't concerns.

>>lack of support for Martial classes

They are actually fun to play, with more options than PF1.

>>Martial classes havent gained anything great to make them more interesting. I think theyve actually gotten weaker.

They are not weaker.

>>There are no new Stances, manuevers, or "Epic Martial Moves" like dispatching an enemy in one hit

The old moves and stances still exist for PF1 players.

There are lots of new moves for martials. Everything to do with shields. Most martials have a special strike, like Intimidating Strike or Felling Strike (knocks flying opponents instantly out of the sky) and Certain Strike (never miss) for Fighters or Terrifying Strike for anti-paladins. There's actually a lot compared to PF1, PF1 mostly was boosting your damage.

So yeah, I agree about magic, I don't agree at all about martials.

[Telefax]

The lack of enthusiasm for the martial classes is pretty easy. While they are mechanically well done, they lack "cool" high level abilities and good fluff ones. Legendary skill feats (which should be martial only, or restricted for casters) is the main area this could have been done in, but they dont necessarily feel like true legendary abilities. The coolest abilities ive ever seen in dnd was the truenamers level 20 ability to give out a part of his name and then being able to react to it from anywhere, and the ability of the thief epic destiny in dnd 4 to steal intangible things like dreams. Those are legendary abilities (or maybe a higher tier, mythic).

[Gorbacz]

I'm sorry, in PF2 a Rogue can shoot flying opponents down forcing them to land while a Fighter can DO A BLOODY JUMPING CHARGE AND STRIKE THE FLYING ENEMY SO THAT THEY FALL TO GROUND AND CAN'T FLY BACK UP.

In the Core Rulebook.

These are things people have asked for across 10 years of PF1's existence and never got that.

[ChaosTicket]

Gorbacz wrote:

I'm sorry, in PF2 a Rogue can shoot flying opponents down forcing them to land while a Fighter can DO A BLOODY JUMPING CHARGE AND STRIKE THE FLYING ENEMY SO THAT THEY FALL TO GROUND AND CAN'T FLY BACK UP.

In the Core Rulebook.

I dont know of any abilities that allow that. Can you explain how?

[Gorbacz]

Rogue feat Felling Shot and Fighter feats Felling Strike (for knocking things down to ground) and Sudden Leap (for jumping charges).

Did you even read the Playtest rulebook? There are options available to martial characters which were impossible or nearly impossible to pull out in PF1 at all. A Rogue or a Ranger can sense invisible creatures without resorting to magic. A Barbarian can grow Huge. A Fighter can dispel spells which affect him_er.

[Kerobelis]

Felling strike is a pretty situational feat. Sudden leap is even worse. Both are 8th level. At that point, i would want a fly potion or something similar and use my feats on something more reliable or consistent. I do not deny that it would be cool when you make it work though!!!

As for the OP, it is an interesting thought experiment. If martials get all their attacks at first level, and bonus damage is magic weapon dependent, and my bonuses to hit do not matter as everything levels up the same as me, what am I looking forward to? Many feats are very small in their effects.

[DataLoreRPG]

Telefax wrote:

The lack of enthusiasm for the martial classes...

I think the martial classes in PF2 look great. We do need more feats to cover more character concepts but what is there looks very promising.

If they were to buff up casters again, then the current implementation of martials may not be sufficient and they will have to mess with it. Frankly, I prefer they not do that as I like whats there for martials at present.

[Gorbacz]

Kerobelis wrote:

Felling strike is a pretty situational feat. Sudden leap is even worse. Both are 8th level. At that point, i would want a fly potion or something similar and use my feats on something more reliable or consistent. I do not deny that it would be cool when you make it work though!!!

As for the OP, it is an interesting thought experiment. If martials get all their attacks at first level, and bonus damage is magic weapon dependent, and my bonuses to hit do not matter as everything levels up the same as me, what am I looking forward to? Many feats are very small in their effects.

Of course, it's up to the playtest to determine whether these feats should be tweaked, made less situational or have math adjusted.

But they exist and are a proof that we've left the "martial can't do superhuman things without resorting to magic" territory of PF1.

[vestris]

Gorbacz wrote:

Kerobelis wrote:

Felling strike is a pretty situational feat. Sudden leap is even worse. Both are 8th level. At that point, i would want a fly potion or something similar and use my feats on something more reliable or consistent. I do not deny that it would be cool when you make it work though!!!

As for the OP, it is an interesting thought experiment. If martials get all their attacks at first level, and bonus damage is magic weapon dependent, and my bonuses to hit do not matter as everything levels up the same as me, what am I looking forward to? Many feats are very small in their effects.

Of course, it's up to the playtest to determine whether these feats should be tweaked, made less situational or have math adjusted.

But they exist and are a proof that we've left the "martial can't do superhuman things without resorting to magic" territory of PF1.

Maybe martials don't really want to though and instead drink a magic potion xD

[The Once and Future Kai]

Gorbacz wrote:

But they exist and are a proof that we've left the "martial can't do superhuman things without resorting to magic" territory of PF1.

Indeed. High level Rogues can now phase through walls. Definitely seeing non-magical superhuman abilities at the legendary tier.

[Gorbacz]

The Once and Future Kai wrote:

Gorbacz wrote:

But they exist and are a proof that we've left the "martial can't do superhuman things without resorting to magic" territory of PF1.

Indeed. High level Rogues can now phase through walls. Definitely seeing non-magical superhuman abilities at the legendary tier.

Ha, missed that one! Awesome. It even respects the "even a thinnest sheet of metal stops phasing" trope.

[ChaosTicket]

And what else? You have 20 levels so far so its not unreasonable to expect 20 different powers or special moves per character. Thats not including minor powers.

[Xenocrat]

Kerobelis wrote:

Felling strike is a pretty situational feat. Sudden leap is even worse. Both are 8th level. At that point, i would want a fly potion or something similar and use my feats on something more reliable or consistent.

A potion of fly costs 60 gp. An 8th level character is supposed to earn 250 gp over the course of leveling to 9th level. I don't think you're going to spend 24% of your liquid funds on this for a single use.

[Captain Morgan]

High level Barbarians get an at will (well, once a minute) localized earthquake. High level druids can become a Kaiju, high level clerics can become an avatar of their god. Most 20th level casters can get what is essentially a bottomless well of 5th level or lower spells. Rangers and Fighters can fill a 10 foot radius circle with arrows, striking every enemy in it at will. Bards can get an a power that instantly slays 16th level or lower creatures with no save.

For skills, a legendary character can: steal the shirt off someone's back without them being aware of it. Fall from orbit unharmed. Scare someone to death with a look. Actually halt battles with diplomacy.

I think there are some problems with the amount of abilities like this you get and perhaps how late you get them, but there's plenty of exciting high level stuff. Even some of the mid level abilities are really cool. By 8th level a monk can have full blown wall running and Prince of Persia style jump mechanics. Dragon Barbarians get the ability to elementally imbue their weapons at 1st, a once per hour breath weapon at 6th, at will flight at 12th, and the ability to turn into a dragon at will at 16th.

[Kerobelis]

Xenocrat wrote:

Kerobelis wrote:

Felling strike is a pretty situational feat. Sudden leap is even worse. Both are 8th level. At that point, i would want a fly potion or something similar and use my feats on something more reliable or consistent.

A potion of fly costs 60 gp. An 8th level character is supposed to earn 250 gp over the course of leveling to 9th level. I don't think you're going to spend 24% of your liquid funds on this for a single use.

I would. Its nice to have some sort of escape ability and a fly potion is good for that. At 8th level I would assume I have found the money over the many levels (or traded something in) for an item like this or similar. It could come from the party treasure. Of course I would have my weapon and armor first as those are must buys.

I also have to be 10th level to get the feat combo originally listed.

[Xenocrat]

Kerobelis wrote:

Xenocrat wrote:

Kerobelis wrote:

Felling strike is a pretty situational feat. Sudden leap is even worse. Both are 8th level. At that point, i would want a fly potion or something similar and use my feats on something more reliable or consistent.

A potion of fly costs 60 gp. An 8th level character is supposed to earn 250 gp over the course of leveling to 9th level. I don't think you're going to spend 24% of your liquid funds on this for a single use.

I would. Its nice to have some sort of escape ability and a fly potion is good for that.

Maybe a PF1 fly potion was good for that. A PF2 playtest potion is terrible - 1 minute of 30' fly speed. And difficult terrain as you climb upwards.

[Jason S]

ChaosTicket wrote:

And what else? You have 20 levels so far so its not unreasonable to expect 20 different powers or special moves per character. Thats not including minor powers.

You're right in the sense that PF2 could easily give one COOL class power per level, and I'd be OK with that.

Especially considering they stripped all the class down to their bare bones and they now we have to earn abilities back. I'm looking at you Monk and Monastic Weapons feat.

I just like high powered games in general, even at low levels. For example, I loved giving the Vanish power to the PF1 Ninja. I want to see MORE of that, not less!

^^^ That should be the design, giving characters "oh wow" abilities. My brother, a long time PF1 player, looked at the playtest and said "There's nothing in character creation that really excites me". That is the exact OPPOSITE reaction we should be getting from PF2. It should be filled with lots of AWESOME.

I wish PF2 had more cool things to do, instead of going more plain like 4E. Spell durations shouldn't be nerfed into uselessness. It shouldn't take longer to get great spells. Martials should get fun and great abilities sooner that make players go "wow".

Bottom Line: I don't want PF2 to feel like 4E. Put the magic back into Pathfinder PLEASE.

[Tridus]

Captain Morgan wrote:

High level Barbarians get an at will (well, once a minute) localized earthquake. High level druids can become a Kaiju, high level clerics can become an avatar of their god. Most 20th level casters can get what is essentially a bottomless well of 5th level or lower spells. Rangers and Fighters can fill a 10 foot radius circle with arrows, striking every enemy in it at will. Bards can get an a power that instantly slays 16th level or lower creatures with no save.

For skills, a legendary character can: steal the shirt off someone's back without them being aware of it. Fall from orbit unharmed. Scare someone to death with a look. Actually halt battles with diplomacy.

I think there are some problems with the amount of abilities like this you get and perhaps how late you get them, but there's plenty of exciting high level stuff. Even some of the mid level abilities are really cool. By 8th level a monk can have full blown wall running and Prince of Persia style jump mechanics. Dragon Barbarians get the ability to elementally imbue their weapons at 1st, a once per hour breath weapon at 6th, at will flight at 12th, and the ability to turn into a dragon at will at 16th.

Now I want to get to high level, because that sounds pretty epic. Sure, I could fight you and probably win, but I'm just going to instead calmly explain why this entire battle should stop, and I'm so good at explaining things that you will all stop to listen.

Nice to hear that there's big stuff coming up later. :)

[Kerobelis]

Captain Morgan wrote:

High level Barbarians get an at will (well, once a minute) localized earthquake. High level druids can become a Kaiju, high level clerics can become an avatar of their god. Most 20th level casters can get what is essentially a bottomless well of 5th level or lower spells. Rangers and Fighters can fill a 10 foot radius circle with arrows, striking every enemy in it at will. Bards can get an a power that instantly slays 16th level or lower creatures with no save.

For skills, a legendary character can: steal the shirt off someone's back without them being aware of it. Fall from orbit unharmed. Scare someone to death with a look. Actually halt battles with diplomacy.

I think there are some problems with the amount of abilities like this you get and perhaps how late you get them, but there's plenty of exciting high level stuff. Even some of the mid level abilities are really cool. By 8th level a monk can have full blown wall running and Prince of Persia style jump mechanics. Dragon Barbarians get the ability to elementally imbue their weapons at 1st, a once per hour breath weapon at 6th, at will flight at 12th, and the ability to turn into a dragon at will at 16th.

Lets look a bit more in detail at some of these:

it takes 3 actions (at 18th level) to attack everyone in a 10' radius (with -5 to hit). Perhaps it is better just to attack 3 times (it almost always is). not very impressive.

The elemental damage barbarian thing is just changing your damage type. The breath weapon is fun and flavorful, and flying for short bursts (remember you lose it when rage is off, every 4 rounds) is good but it is 12th level. At least it gives the Barbarians some utility so it is good. turning into a dragon is cool but has some issues (if you use weapons, now you suck as the dragon doesn't get the magic weapon stacking bonus).

Yes, casters get some really cool things at really high levels. Getting a new level of spells is always fun and exciting. I am not seeing as many cool and exciting things for martials. Many of the feats are marginal boosts or even trap options (anything with snares, power attack, mirror shield, improvised snare (or almost any ranger feat)). It seems like it is very difficult to make good martial feats at high level.

[Kerobelis]

Xenocrat wrote:

Kerobelis wrote:

Xenocrat wrote:

Kerobelis wrote:

Felling strike is a pretty situational feat. Sudden leap is even worse. Both are 8th level. At that point, i would want a fly potion or something similar and use my feats on something more reliable or consistent.

A potion of fly costs 60 gp. An 8th level character is supposed to earn 250 gp over the course of leveling to 9th level. I don't think you're going to spend 24% of your liquid funds on this for a single use.

I would. Its nice to have some sort of escape ability and a fly potion is good for that.

Maybe a PF1 fly potion was good for that. A PF2 playtest potion is terrible - 1 minute of 30' fly speed. And difficult terrain as you climb upwards.

LOL, i should read the particulars as that is pretty terrible. And it is an 8th level item. Still, beggers can't be choosers. I haven't looked at the magic items in detail, but as a fighter, I want my weapon and armor, then an escape item, then maybe some buff or utility items.

[Tridus]

Jason S wrote:

^^^ That should be the design, giving characters "oh wow" abilities. My brother, a long time PF1 player, looked at the playtest and said "There's nothing in character creation that really excites me". That is the exact OPPOSITE reaction we should be getting from PF2. It should be filled with lots of AWESOME.

^ This. That's why it bugs me everytime someone complains Clerics are too strong at healing and should be nerfed. Like, someone's actually good at something and it feels powerful when you use it?

That's a good thing. We want more of that. Players like feeling impactful when they do stuff, rather than burning an entire turn to fire off a Cantrip that does 3 damage.

Lets have more stuff that feels like a big deal when you use it.

[Craig Bonham 141]

Crayon wrote:

High-level play has sucked in every variant of D&D produced to date and PF2 shows no signs of breaking that trend based on the current rule set.

In your experience. My group has successfully and happily played a dozen or so campaigns up to 20th level with Pathfinder. It's been a blast and honestly I've thought that the focus on the lower level end of the power spectrum was a little limiting and honestly boring.

I play this game to play heroes. Big, bold, bright stars that make a difference. Now, if you don't dig that, it's easy enough to limit your game to the lower tier options. But it's harder to play what isn't provided.

[Captain Morgan]

Kerobelis wrote:

Lets look a bit more in detail at some of these:

it takes 3 actions (at 18th level) to attack everyone in a 10' radius (with -5 to hit). Perhaps it is better just to attack 3 times (it almost always is). not very impressive.

Depends entirely on what you are fighting. If it is a single enemy, yeah, AoE isn't your friend, but single target damage has never been a problem for fighters. Even in that case you probably don't want to use 3 attacks against a challenging single level foe. You should probably instead be using some combination of Focused Aim, Double Shot, Triple Shot, and Debilitating Shot. This is probably still your best bet against 2 or 3 enemies.

But again'st 4 or more? You want to bring the rain. The ability to do crowd control has always been a big weakness for martials, and I'm pretty pleased they can get an at will ability that lets them try and murder armies of pleebs in one go. (Also, that doesn't hit allies, which is nice.)

Quote:

The elemental damage barbarian thing is just changing your damage type. The breath weapon is fun and flavorful, and flying for short bursts (remember you lose it when rage is off, every 4 rounds) is good but it is 12th level. At least it gives the Barbarians some utility so it is good. turning into a dragon is cool but has some issues (if you use weapons, now you suck as the dragon doesn't get the magic weapon stacking bonus).

Actually, the 1st level power also slightly buffs your damage. But even if it left it the same, being able to light your sword on fire sans any magical items is metal af, as is the rest of dragon totem.

Quote:

Yes, casters get some really cool things at really high levels. Getting a new level of spells is always fun and exciting. I am not seeing as many cool and exciting things for martials. Many of the feats are marginal boosts or even trap options (anything with snares, power attack, mirror shield, improvised snare (or almost any ranger feat)). It seems like it is very difficult to make good martial feats at high level.

Oh, I'm not saying martials couldn't use more love. But there are some cool things to look forward to, and many of them come cheaper than equivalent abilities in PF1.

[ChaosTicket]

Who doesnt want to feel like a legendary hero with interesting powers? Im honestly asking because the overall trend is to tone down the AWESOME at higher levels. If magic is nerfed where do people get there powers now? I was hoping there would be Martial Magic or something to give new powers at every level. Magic even with nerfs still has the vast majority of heroic powers.

[ErichAD]

I remember playing D&D and always being excited about the path to god hood. Mostly when I was younger, but it's still there. That path doesn't seem to exist in this game. You sort of dampen the socks of the gods and that's about it.

Admittedly, there's always a sort of Xfiles element to games that exist with an extremely high power ceiling, but I've become used to writing those sorts of stories and rather enjoy writing them.