|
This is something I've been pondering recently and please don't say "its just a game so no I don't feel guilty for killing made up creatures" its not helpful.
I've been thinking about this since listening to a podcast where a player triggered a fight against a non-hostile being of uknown alignment because they were rude and not human. Then started going on about how all their stuff was stolen so it was ok to steal it from them (it ran away when they were winning the fight), they were bad and rude even the DM ran the creatures as spending the entire fight trying to avoid conflict, being willing to negotiate and subdue them without killing. I couldn't help feel it was because they would have reacted differently if the person had been a gold dragon or angel rather than a "monstrous being. I also noticed in the AP's there are several evil enemies are not necessarily a fight or even actively doing evil unless the party does something to provoke a conflict. That is they are evil, they do kill, betray etc but when the party encounters them even though you know what they are they're not actually harming anyone e.g. a demon who's goal is to become more powerful in the abyss and is willing to bargain for their life, a royal naga wanting to learn about the world's history who doesn't want to fight, a medusa seeking to cure a curse on her who may be pushed to attack because of it if the obsessions aren't appeased and the like.
Which got me wondering does anyone else feel guilty killing a definately evil being that's not actively threatening or harming anyone and may well not do so any time soon, or do you just feel comfortable kiling them because they probably will harm someone at some point or have harmed someone in the past?
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
So that player committed an evil act and should be treated appropriately.
As far as killing creatures you know are evil, no, I see nothing wrong with it, that's what a good aligned party should be doing, ridding the world of evil. Now, sometimes it's difficult for the party to know a creature they encounter is evil. A character shouldn't just cast Detect Evil against everyone they encounter, so the creature in question should do something to warrant that investigation.
All of this comes down to in-game alignment, creed, and so on.
Take Ragathiel, for example. His areas of concern are chivalry, duty, and vengeance. His domains include good, law, and nobility, but also destruction. His subdomains include good and law, but also judgment and rage. The obedience he demands from his followers is to slay a proven wrongdoer in his name.
Ragathiel's Paladins? They are sworn to avenge evil wrought upon the innocent, and to punish the proven guilty for their crimes. The check to this is their unwillingness to inflict disproportionate retribution, and to offer redemption.
Whether or not someone is actively evil when they run into a worshipper of Ragathiel is irrelevant. What matters is whether said worshipper knows that someone has done something evil. They could be a Goblin tribe who definitely raided a village and murdered innocents, but are settling down for the winter and not looking for trouble. They could be a merchant house that rose to power through assassination and betrayal. They could be a serial killer who somehow got away with it for years, and decided to lay off the killing in their own age. It doesn't matter; what matters is that they did these things, they won't repent for them, and retribution is coming.
Just an example.
How you react to an evil creature depends on the nature of the creature. If the creature is unrepentantly evil with no interest or intention of changing its ways, I don’t feel guilty about killing them. If the creature can be redeemed and is trying to change its ways I would be more hesitant. The real trick is figuring out which type of creature it is.
Just because a creature is not actively engaged in evil does not lessen their evil. The captured demon who is trying to get free so he can become more powerful and cause more death and destruction does not mean it deserves pity, nor is killing it an evil act. The baby goblin who could be raised so that it does not be evil is a different story.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
--It depends, are we on their turf, are they on our turf?
--Can they be negotiated with?
--Are we at war? Like, if its wrath of the righteous, I can kill anyone wearing Baphometan or Deskarite heraldry from ambush. I would accept surrenders, but they are invaders, and allied with manifestations of evil.
Am I in the Abyss in the plane of a different demon lord that does not currently invade Golarion? I will be polite in a way that is what I deem to be appropriate to their "customs", and not generally speaking initiate violence.
--Is it reign of winter, and I am just running into an Irriseni patrol? Eh, just avoid them. Grunts doing their day job in a hard place.
I think a lot of this conundrum stems from the real-world mentality of actions denoting if someone is "evil" vs. the in-world D&D phenomenon of good and evil being tangible, measurable forces that living beings can align with.
In the modern real world (at least the part I'm familiar with), most people take very seriously the charge of ending someone's life because of their actions. In Golarion, this charge may be taken seriously by some, but many are content to accept (or even be pushed to accept) that some things deserve death based on the fact that they're associated with this cosmic force or whatever. Obviously actions still account for a lot, but that's not the whole picture.
For me personally, most of my PCs wouldn't see a hobgoblin sitting by themselves on a pier fishing in a lake and think that it immediately deserved death, but that's definitely influenced by my real-world morality. In a D&D world, where life is cheaper and often more dangerous, I can see it being harder for any random individual to resist killing another for a cause or for their own advantage.
If the PCs come upon Decimus Meridias Koboldikus, father of a murdered son, husband to a murdered wife, who will have his revenge in this life or the next, desperately seeking justice but being incredibly ruthless and evil in the process, and the players learn all of this about koboldikus, they might try to reason with him, try to find common ground and maybe, over time, the warlord comes to a grudging respect for the sanctity of life.
if he pings Evil when the paladin uses Detect Evil, then I'm pretty sure there won't be any reasoning....
If the PCs come upon Decimus Meridias Koboldikus, father of a murdered son, husband to a murdered wife, who will have his revenge in this life or the next, desperately seeking justice but being incredibly ruthless and evil in the process, and the players learn all of this about koboldikus, they might try to reason with him, try to find common ground and maybe, over time, the warlord comes to a grudging respect for the sanctity of life.if he pings Evil when the paladin uses Detect Evil, then I'm pretty sure there won't be any reasoning....
Evil clerics of neutral gods. Gets em every time.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I enjoy playing with, and twisting the ideas of, alignment.
A priestess of Gyronna who will methodically ruin the life of someone that abuses his wife but is highly respected in society so that he wouldn't face repercussions / wouldn't stand trial for it? Yep, that makes sense for the priestess to do but that the players would have a hard time blaming her for it.
People running a protection extortion racket? Yep, evil, but death seems too extreme.
Lawful Evil politician that is doing everything by the proper and good laws is hard to run up and kill without getting people on their side first and even then, that'll likely face consequences due to the politician not breaking any laws.
Senko, your example of the NPC being of unknown alignment, rude, and looked like a monster? I can do one better that I did to my group... NPC was a boggard so looked monstrous. That was it. They killed him from a distance... then the NPC's pet came out from the house and when they got closer they saw the boggard had a smashed up arm... That was one of the first encounters I ever ran for my group and, boy! did they feel bad. Thankfully they quickly learned that NPCs in my games aren't always what they seem.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I was teaching 3.5 D&D at youth centers. and was trying to help the new players see things in other colors then black and white, so..
the Paladin found out the town's butcher pinged as evil. after investigating he learned the man was a ruthless (chicken) killer (he also slathered lambs and such) but never hurt any humanoid out of fear of the law. so he vented his evil tendencies to where the public wouldn't mind.
needless to say the paladin couldn't really kill him for doing his job , no matter how happy he was while doing it.
a group of female only players who just killed their first goblin, after just meeting him outside the town in the hills, found a note in his pouch which was pretty much this only with goblins in it.
they asked me to retcon the whole event...
so from all this you can see my take on the whole 'ping as evil' thing.
-One really should have a reason other then alignment to justify killing people\creatures.
i learned this way back in old school D&D. it was a real shook to the young me to learn that the two evil nobles we were fighting were actually in love with each other and would even sacrifice themselves to save one another. Told me that evil can be something other then the old one-track movie evil.
Evil clerics of neutral gods. Gets em every time.If the PCs come upon Decimus Meridias Koboldikus, father of a murdered son, husband to a murdered wife, who will have his revenge in this life or the next, desperately seeking justice but being incredibly ruthless and evil in the process, and the players learn all of this about koboldikus, they might try to reason with him, try to find common ground and maybe, over time, the warlord comes to a grudging respect for the sanctity of life.if he pings Evil when the paladin uses Detect Evil, then I'm pretty sure there won't be any reasoning....
Still Ping as evil.... and I'm ok with that
Still Ping as evil.... and I'm ok with thatEvil clerics of neutral gods. Gets em every time.If the PCs come upon Decimus Meridias Koboldikus, father of a murdered son, husband to a murdered wife, who will have his revenge in this life or the next, desperately seeking justice but being incredibly ruthless and evil in the process, and the players learn all of this about koboldikus, they might try to reason with him, try to find common ground and maybe, over time, the warlord comes to a grudging respect for the sanctity of life.if he pings Evil when the paladin uses Detect Evil, then I'm pretty sure there won't be any reasoning....
Nah, they ping as neutral
Aura Power: An evil aura's power depends on the type of evil creature or object that you're detecting and its HD, caster level, or (in the case of a cleric) class level; see the table below. If an aura falls into more than one strength category, the spell indicates the stronger of the two.
So if there's, say, a 5th level cleric they'll detect as strongly neutral rather than faintly evil.
the Paladin found out the town's butcher pinged as evil. after investigating he learned the man was a ruthless (chicken) killer (he also slathered lambs and such) but never hurt any humanoid out of fear of the law.
Not an evil act - would not make him evil
a group of female only players who just killed their first goblin, after just meeting him outside the town in the hills, found a note in his pouch which was pretty much this only with goblins in it.
they asked me to retcon the whole event...
Still Evil creatures.... would not cause their alignment to shift - no harm
Many people forget that in D&D and Pathfinder you actually must do evil acts for your alignment to be evil. And if your racial entry in the bestiary or your character entry in a book says you are evil, then you have done evil acts. Not just killing chickens and cows, but actual legitimate evil acts.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
the Paladin found out the town's butcher pinged as evil. after investigating he learned the man was a ruthless (chicken) killer (he also slathered lambs and such) but never hurt any humanoid out of fear of the law.Not an evil act - would not make him evil
a group of female only players who just killed their first goblin, after just meeting him outside the town in the hills, found a note in his pouch which was pretty much this only with goblins in it.
they asked me to retcon the whole event...Still Evil creatures.... would not cause their alignment to shift - no harm
Many people forget that in D&D and Pathfinder you actually must do evil acts for your alignment to be evil. And if your racial entry in the bestiary or your character entry in a book says you are evil, then you have done evil acts. Not just killing chickens and cows, but actual legitimate evil acts.
where does it say you must commit evil to become evil?!?.
if you commit evil you become one, but that's like saying the only way to be blind is to get your eyes poked out. cause and effect. an effect can have more then one cause.
he is evil because he decided to be one. he has free will and he looked at the life Infront of him and good or natural way of life and belief doesn't suit him as evil.
or are you saying only people who actually do good deeds can be of good alignment?! is a cripple blind man who can't move must be natural?
doing some things can force an alignment change. but nothing is stated of how the initial alignment must be set.
---
as for "would not cause their alignment to shift - no harm"
who said the goblin was evil?! the fact common goblins tend to be evil doesn't mean every goblin out there is. as a race open for a player's character you will find a lot of goblins who are not evil at all (chaotic. That's a different matter ;).
also even if he WAS evil. he wasn't doing anything evil at the time he was ambushed by would be adventurers and killed on the spot on his way home to his wife and children. now who is in the wrong and how can you claim "no harm done?" a person was just murdered in cold blood mind you!
this is exactly the black and white mindset i was aiming to prevent in my players.
|
Still Ping as evil.... and I'm ok with that
The Neutral Good 5th level commoner that is thinking to torture and kill his daughter raper and killer pings evil while thinking that.
The Lawfulk Evil Cleric that is thinking about his daughter baby shower and about pampering her and his wife "Ping Good"."Pings evil" alone isn't a very good reason, it doesn't mean the target is evil-aligned. You get false positives.
Creatures with actively evil intents count as evil creatures for the purpose of this spell.
My perspective on the whole thing is somewhat simple: The Gods and Outer Realms handle the ultimate fate of the souls that perish in the Material Realm. It is not my concern what happens out there. What I concern myself is what happens in the Material Plane, where I can prevent the further suffering of innocents by handing the evil-doers an express ticket to the afterlife (and judgement).
How does that work out in action? If the evil person is an active threat, be it actively harming (or will definitely harm) an innocent or if they are a current threat to my current existence (ie, threatening me harm), then I am handing out tickets. If they are undead or any other 'always' evil race of being that do not belong in the Material Plane, I will gladly help send their souls and energies back where they belong. If they are evil but not actively harming anyone, and I have nothing more pressing to do, I will watch and wait to see if anything needs to be done about them. If the laws of the land don't eventually deal with the evil-doers, then it would inevitably become my business to act as executioner in their stead.
Yes, there are exceptions to these situations but they tend to be isolated and rare. One thing to keep in mind is this, they have to have done something to merit my action to begin with. Outside of undead or outsiders, assumptions and simply 'pinging' evil are not sufficient.
|
|
the Paladin found out the town's butcher pinged as evil. after investigating he learned the man was a ruthless (chicken) killer (he also slathered lambs and such) but never hurt any humanoid out of fear of the law. so he vented his evil tendencies to where the public wouldn't mind.
needless to say the paladin couldn't really kill him for doing his job , no matter how happy he was while doing it.An excellent example of how important of a factor it is just who is sitting in the GM's chair and their view of the chicken or the egg question, among others.
Does someone get assigned an evil alignment and then want to do evil things to satisfy it? Does someone get an evil alignment as a result of their actions? The extra spicy secret third option?
You probably are evil/good/neutral/lawful/chaotic by culture, with a variable chance of other alignments.
To make an example, Romans used slavery, "nice" punishments like crucifixion or dipping someone in pitch and burning him, they did "delenda Chartago", razing the city to the ground and salting the earth.
They had a written body of laws, a clear social order with limited mobility but clear rights for the Roman populace. Even slaves had some rights (depending on the kind of slave).
As a society, we will classify them as Lawful Evil. Most people born in it would start as LE (with modern sensibilities we would classify most ancient and medieval civilizations as some variation of evil).
That doesn't make every Roman LE, it is a base tendency. Most of them probably would be barely within the LE camp, very near the NN camp.
I don't see how "Kill all Romans on sight." would be less evil than what the Romans did.
Evil.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Note that the ruthless merchant that routinely squeezes every penny from his clients, never does a good act, pays his workers as little as possible, and beats people mercilessly for misbehaving or errors, probably will ping evil if he is above 5th level, but, probably, everything he does is (barely) within the limits of the law.
Probably the sadist surgeon that loves the pain he inflicts while doing surgeries will ping evil, even if he actually helps people.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Note that the ruthless merchant that routinely squeezes every penny from his clients, never does a good act, pays his workers as little as possible, and beats people mercilessly for misbehaving or errors, probably will ping evil if he is above 5th level, but, probably, everything he does is (barely) within the limits of the law.
Probably the sadist surgeon that loves the pain he inflicts while doing surgeries will ping evil, even if he actually helps people.
So, no one (most people you encounter in a city) Pings any alignment until they have an actual class level.
Clerics and paladins register their alignment at 1st level, other classes not until 5th level.
Creatures do not ping an alignment unless they have 5 HD or more.
As for PC's (most playable races), you start at the Alignment listed in your bestiary entry or on your character sheet. If you do things that are different than your alignment often enough (or don't do things in line with their alignment often enough) then you can shift to a different alignment.
From Ultimate Combat:
"Every character has a 9-point scale for the lawful-chaotic alignment axis, with 1, 2, and 3 representing lawful, 7, 8, and 9 representing chaotic, and the rest representing neutral. Each character has a similar scale for the good-evil alignment axis, with 1, 2, and 3 representing good and 7, 8, and 9 representing evil.
The player decides where the character’s alignment is on the alignment track. For example, a mischievous rogue with a good heart may be a 7 on the lawful-chaotic axis and an 2 on the good-evil axis—a chaotic good character who is more good than chaotic. a cruel but honorable knight could be a 1 on the lawful-chaotic axis and a 7 on the good-evil axis, a lawful evil character who is far more lawful than evil.
When a character performs an action that is out of character for his listed alignment, the GM decides whether the action is enough to shift the character’s alignment on the appropriate alignment track, and if so by how much. Executing a captured orc combatant so the PCs don’t have to haul it to a distant prison may only be 1 step toward evil; torturing a hostage for information may be 2 steps. For minor infractions, the GM can just issue a warning that further actions will cause a shift on the alignment track. Extreme, deliberate acts, such as burning down an orphanage full of children just for the fun of it, should push the character fully into that alignment, regardless of the character’s original position on the alignment track."
Most NPC's (monster etc,) should all tend to strive to stay within their listed alignment.
So, no one (most people you encounter in a city) Pings any alignment until they have an actual class level.
Clerics and paladins register their alignment at 1st level, other classes not until 5th level.
Creatures do not ping an alignment unless they have 5 HD or more.
5 levels of Commmoner gives you 5 HD.
"Every character has a 9-point scale for the lawful-chaotic alignment axis, with 1, 2, and 3 representing lawful, 7, 8, and 9 representing chaotic, and the rest representing neutral. Each character has a similar scale for the good-evil alignment axis, with 1, 2, and 3 representing good and 7, 8, and 9 representing evil...
Minor correction for anyone trying to find the quote: It's from Ultimate Campaign, starts on page 136 under "Changing Alignment"
Most NPC's (monster etc,) should all tend to strive to stay within their listed alignment.
That seems to be your opinion, not something listed as a rule.
And do I ever disagree with that opinion! Where's the fun in having every member of a race be the same alignment? It's fun to change things up once in awhile.a group of female only players who just killed their first goblin, after just meeting him outside the town in the hills, found a note in his pouch which was pretty much this only with goblins in it.
they asked me to retcon the whole event...
I love that!
Goblin still might've been evil though... just because someone does good by their family and is loved by some people doesn't mean they're not evil.
Most NPC's (monster etc,) should all tend to strive to stay within their listed alignment.That seems to be your opinion, not something listed as a rule.
And do I ever disagree with that opinion! Where's the fun in having every member of a race be the same alignment? It's fun to change things up once in awhile..
once in a rare while sure, but not so often as it becomes a trope.
once in a rare while sure, but not so often as it becomes a trope.
Most NPC's (monster etc,) should all tend to strive to stay within their listed alignment.That seems to be your opinion, not something listed as a rule.
And do I ever disagree with that opinion! Where's the fun in having every member of a race be the same alignment? It's fun to change things up once in awhile..
But the trope of "all XXX being evil" is fine?
Nah, I'm good. I like a variety of morals in creatures.
|
|
My perspective on the whole thing is somewhat simple: The Gods and Outer Realms handle the ultimate fate of the souls that perish in the Material Realm. It is not my concern what happens out there. What I concern myself is what happens in the Material Plane, where I can prevent the further suffering of innocents by handing the evil-doers an express ticket to the afterlife (and judgement).
How does that work out in action? If the evil person is an active threat, be it actively harming (or will definitely harm) an innocent or if they are a current threat to my current existence (ie, threatening me harm), then I am handing out tickets. If they are undead or any other 'always' evil race of being that do not belong in the Material Plane, I will gladly help send their souls and energies back where they belong. If they are evil but not actively harming anyone, and I have nothing more pressing to do, I will watch and wait to see if anything needs to be done about them. If the laws of the land don't eventually deal with the evil-doers, then it would inevitably become my business to act as executioner in their stead.
Yes, there are exceptions to these situations but they tend to be isolated and rare. One thing to keep in mind is this, they have to have done something to merit my action to begin with. Outside of undead or outsiders, assumptions and simply 'pinging' evil are not sufficient.
So out of curiosity how would you handle Melazema in wrath of the righteous? A chaotic evil Umbral dragon who was drawn into the abyss long enough ago she's no longer affected by it. However she has no interest in returning to the prime material plane, feeds on the demons infesting her isle, is unbothered by a much elemental sharing her home and is stated will not attack or pursue the PC's unless they touch her stuff (treasure) or attack her in her lair after she returns from hunting (with a cateblepas she throws at them as her first action). She's the one who prompted me to make my original post as I don't like the idea of fighting her chaotic evil or not when you can just avoid her and she's only harming demons.
evil can be lazy and or laid back.
as i said above one doesn't have to do evil deeds to be evil. even if doing evil make one evil.
Melazema got killed in all of my playthroughs so far, mostly because the fullsome queen became a party favorite in all of them. Why? Well, the fullsome queen talks to the party, and is obviously very unusual for an Omox-demon.
Melazmera pretty much instantly attacks, and her loot stash is very enticing.
Vellexia survived in all playthroughs, even becoming a background NPCs semi romantically involved with a character in 1 (said character frankly didnt differ much from her alignment wise), and they setup an academic exchange programm between the Kithroadian academy in Oppara and her Imperial Alyushinyrran Ballet Academy.
Which is kind of a bad idea, but meeting Iomedae set that character on the part of "nah, bugger lawfull good, seriously".
Shamira got killed if I play her as written, but survived when I had her a bit more affable.
Funnily enough, one party semi-redeemed Kiandrah. Another party bluffed her into believing Nocticula supports the crusade, causing her to betray Staunton.
Mahrevok gets imprisoned or killed pretty much all the time.
From observation:
Things that make players not kill loot bearing evil opponents:
--Being very attractive
--Being unusual
--There not being direct obvious loot
--A preceeding social encounter first, making one or several players laugh is the best life insurance.
|
|
Melazema got killed in all of my playthroughs so far, mostly because the fullsome queen became a party favorite in all of them. Why? Well, the fullsome queen talks to the party, and is obviously very unusual for an Omox-demon.
Melazmera pretty much instantly attacks, and her loot stash is very enticing.Vellexia survived in all playthroughs, even becoming a background NPCs semi romantically involved with a character in 1 (said character frankly didnt differ much from her alignment wise), and they setup an academic exchange programm between the Kithroadian academy in Oppara and her Imperial Alyushinyrran Ballet Academy.
Which is kind of a bad idea, but meeting Iomedae set that character on the part of "nah, bugger lawfull good, seriously".
Shamira got killed if I play her as written, but survived when I had her a bit more affable.
Funnily enough, one party semi-redeemed Kiandrah. Another party bluffed her into believing Nocticula supports the crusade, causing her to betray Staunton.
Mahrevok gets imprisoned or killed pretty much all the time.From observation:
Things that make players not kill loot bearing evil opponents:
--Being very attractive
--Being unusual
--There not being direct obvious loot
--A preceeding social encounter first, making one or several players laugh is the best life insurance.
So basically making the party see them as humanoid rather than monstrous. Well that as comedic, people seem willing to spare the monster as long as it amuses them. Surprised they got away with killing Shamira to be honest I'd expect that to bring Noticula down on them and Melazamera's loot isn't obvious even if they are attacking her in her own home.
Eh, one of the PCs became Nocticulas consort(triggering a sideplot to do something hilarious to Socothbenoth), resulting in a rather explosive show of fiery wrath by Shamira (Nocticula in part wanted to test Shamiras loyalty and wished to see how she would react),
Shamira essentially overreacted, the PCs kind of killed her in self defense.
Nocticula ate popcorn while watching it, and force appointed a very perturbed Vellexia to take Shamiras job.
The consort got to command Nocticulas expeditionary force on Golarion. And had fun dealing with "administrative affairs" resulting from a joint Demon-Crusader force.
Act 5 was in part managing the fact that several party members returned from the Abyss being rather fond of "Auntie Noctie", one of them being her consort (later mortal herald) and the crusaders having well, predictable opinions about that.
You get false positives.
No, you do not get false positives, the spell "Detect Evil" Specifically reveals if the target has an Evil Aura or not, this aura is based on their HD and actual alignment. The only way you get false positives are with the target having certain feats and/or spells, items on them. Their current thoughts or intents have absolutely nothing to do with it, only their actual alignment.
evil can be lazy and or laid back.
as i said above one doesn't have to do evil deeds to be evil. even if doing evil make one evil.
If you do too many things outside of your alignment - then your alignment will shift. Being lazy and laid back falls under the neutral alignment - too much of that and Bam, you ain't evil no mo.
b!#~~@#! (ox's manure).
sleuth is believed by many to be one of the deadly sins after all (not by me though). link me the rule you are calling out if you can.(about lazy turning one neutral, it's even in some good or evil gods portfolios).
laziness just like courage or stupidity is a personality trait. and has nothing to do with alignment. you can be good and lazy evil and lazy or neutral and lazy. same for the other two traits (and a lot others).
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
You get false positives.
No, you do not get false positives, the spell "Detect Evil" Specifically reveals if the target has an Evil Aura or not, this aura is based on their HD and actual alignment. The only way you get false positives are with the target having certain feats and/or spells, items on them. Their current thoughts or intents have absolutely nothing to do with it, only their actual alignment.
How about a lawful neutral cleric of a lawful evil deity? They radiate a strong aura of both law and evil. While someone serving an evil deity is probably going to end up tending towards evil, the character is still not evil, but detects as evil.
A 2nd level lawful neutral cleric of a lawful evil deity sitting there thinking good thoughts still detects as having a moderately evil aura. That means he has the same aura as an 11th – 15th level assassin.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
You get false positives.
No, you do not get false positives, the spell "Detect Evil" Specifically reveals if the target has an Evil Aura or not, this aura is based on their HD and actual alignment. The only way you get false positives are with the target having certain feats and/or spells, items on them. Their current thoughts or intents have absolutely nothing to do with it, only their actual alignment.
Yes, you can. From Detect Evil: "Creatures with actively evil intents count as evil creatures for the purpose of this spell."
A good person that is really angry about something and thinking about ways to kill someone even if they wouldn't really do it would detect as evil during that time.
From the lawful evil description: "He condemns others not according to their actions but according to race, religion, homeland, or social rank." So someone actively thinking about killing all goblins simply because of their race could detect as evil even if they're a good alignment.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Just thinking about doing an evil act should not be enough. You have to actually intend to perform those acts. You do not have to have performed the act, making the decision to act is probably enough. The description says evil intents not evil thoughts. It is a subtle difference, but still a difference.
|
Meanwhile my groups tend to avoid all fights with diplomacy unless monster present is actively doing something evil and likely to do something evil in near future to someone non evil, otherwise they diplomacy with evil creatures without worry of them coming back to backstab them later randomly :p
(I kinda see "we should kill it so it doesn't become threat in future" paranoia as just an excuse to be a murderhobo)
I also think that while some players are likely to do this if they know creature type is evil, they often also use lack of alignment as excuse to act like this all the time :'D
I would quite vigorously defend any of my player groups from murderhobo charges (even the one that founded a rockband called "Mythic Mortal Murderhobos" in wotr ACT 4), if they are talked to first, they typically talk back.
But well, if it is dangerous, looks evil, and doesnt try talking to them it typically get the short end of the stick.
If they start talking during combat, they can sometimes still save their hides.
Or start negotiating "Dont kill us or I destroy this magic item!".
I do try to give enemies names, even if its literally "bob the beaverish Cultist". Like, you can never truely predict whom the party will "adopt".
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
If the alignment mechanic didn't exist, I still think the same players who auto-kill "evil" creatures would make the same decision just based on the creature's reputation. Alignment is just an excuse.
If they wouldn't actually do it, then its not actively evil intent.
Yes, good and neutral people will occasionally commit evil acts. If you Detect Evil on them during one those times they will read as evil even though that person typically isn't evil.
Hence why Detect Evil can give a false positive.Yes, they should be stopped from committing whatever evil they were about to do, but does that mean they should die for a moment of weakness? (The answer to that will vary greatly by person, but that's kind of what this entire thread is about.)
|
|
Sidenote, I think I need to elaborate on the paranoia thing
I've once played for short time with player who in one campaign played "CN" wizard who was power hungry and wanted to murder random friendly npcs in their sleep for their magical items.
In another campaign guy played character who was paranoid and wanted to kill anything that moved, including bunch of random lizardfolk who we knew were enemies with gnolls who had attacked group on sight :p What they specifically always wanted to do was ambush creatures from stealth without giving them chance to react before murdering them, meaning they didn't want there to be possibility of dialog.
(in third much more longer campaign I didn't play in but one of my players did, apparently that player's character betrayed the party in finale and turned it pvp)
Soo yeah, that's why I think paranoia is just excuse to be murderhobo, because certain type of players tend to portray multiple facets of murderhobo ;P
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
My question about detecting evil when you have actively evil thoughts is how strong is the aura? What if the evil act is only marginally evil? Do they still have an aura based on their level/HD? To me it does not make sense that a 15th level character who is planning to steal something from someone detects as evil as a serial killer that has tortured and murdered hundreds of victims.
The spell seems to assume that all characters are fully committed to their listed alignment. Should the high-level character that is borderline evil have an aura that is stronger than a lower-level character that is fully committed to evil? If you are using the numeric alignment system from ultimate campaign it you could adjust the alignment of the aura based on the number. Use the chart in the book for someone in the middle position. If they are in the 1 or 9 position their aura is moved up the chart by 1, if it is in the 3 or 4 position it is moved down the chart by 1.
That same system could be used to determine the strength of the aura when someone is acting with evil intent. Rate the act on how evil you consider it and assign it to a rating of where it fits on the numeric alignment system. And adjust the aura’s strength accordingly. For example, a 5th level character who only has a minor active evil intent still does not radiate, but a 1st level character who is actively planning to slaughter dozens of helpless children would radiate a faint evil.
Obviously, this is not raw, but it does give a little more flexibility to the alignment system.
This kind of explains why clerics and paladins radiate even at low level. They are radiating the aura of their deity, which is assumed to be stronger than normal. Which means that a character with the aura class feature is not subject to these adjustments as they have already been applied.
|
|
You get false positives.
No, you do not get false positives, the spell "Detect Evil" Specifically reveals if the target has an Evil Aura or not, this aura is based on their HD and actual alignment. The only way you get false positives are with the target having certain feats and/or spells, items on them. Their current thoughts or intents have absolutely nothing to do with it, only their actual alignment.
Creatures with actively evil intents count as evil creatures for the purpose of this spell.
Having evil intents isn't the same as having an evil alignment, so you get false positives.
You can get the same false positives for chaotic, good, or lawful thoughts.
|
|
My question about detecting evil when you have actively evil thoughts is how strong is the aura? What if the evil act is only marginally evil? Do they still have an aura based on their level/HD? To me it does not make sense that a 15th level character who is planning to steal something from someone detects as evil as a serial killer that has tortured and murdered hundreds of victims.
RAW, Detect Evil/Good/Chaos/Law seems to give only a Positive/Negative reply, plus a gauge of the creature's power.
I think almost all GMs don't play it that way, giving some indication of how much the target is Evil.
As a rule of thumb, I would consider a non Evil-aligned creature having Evil intentions as a step lower in the HD gauge. It depends on the kind of Evil they want to perform, too.