Azothath - Purchased Mounts - and in particular horses


Homebrew and House Rules


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one area that's not covered is better horses. Sure you can buy a Horse (2HD) or an Advanced Horse(2+2HD) but no 3 or 4 HD horses.
Something to consider is the devaluation in having an animal companion or having them costed out. While the purchased animal doesn't keep pace with a companion, the fact that you can buy higher hit die creatures does cut into that exclusive area. This was opened up by the Animal Archive. My attempt here is to create better horses rather than have you riding a woolly rhinoceros.

The monster rules in general want you to increase the size of things as Hit Dice increase. Adding templates and gaining size normally raises ability scores, for a mount this is going to be inconvenient as you don't want to ride a giant horse around. So the ability scores alone will have to be adjusted. The goal is to be a lesser equivalent of a woolly rhinoceros at 8HD (CR6).

The main source list is the Animal Archive. Curve fitting Hit die verses RMS cost in minimal terms polynomial for y=-25 +50x +25x^2; x=1,2,3... y(cost)=50, 175, 350, 575, 850, 1175, 1550, 1975. which isn't bad.

so a horse of x Hit Die should cost
Horse{pony} (1HD) $45 as is.
Horse (2HD) $110 as is.
Adv. Horse (2+2HD) $300 as is(heavy war horse, combat trained). This will be the base for a "war horse".
War Horse (2+2HD) $300 BAB:+1. . Str 20, Dex 18, Con 21, Int 2, Wis 17, Cha 11; Fort +8 Rflx +7 Will +3;.. AC15 (+4Dex +2natl -1sz); F: Endurance, Run; Percp +8, 6 tricks. baseline.
War Horse (3HD) $400 BAB:+2 . . Str 21, Dex 19, Con 21, Int 2, Wis 17, Cha 11; Fort +8 Rflx +7 Will +4;.. AC15 (+4Dex +2natl -1sz); Acrob +8, Percp +8, 7 tricks.
War Horse (4HD) $600 BAB:+3 . . Str 21, Dex 19, Con 22, Int 2, Wis 17, Cha 11; Fort +10 Rflx +8 Will +4;. AC16 (+4Dex +3natl -1sz); F:Alertness; Acrob +8, Percp +10, SnsMtv +5, Swim +9.
War Horse (5HD) $900 BAB:+3 . . Str 21, Dex 19, Con 22, Int 2, Wis 17, Cha 11; Fort +10 Rflx +8 Will +4;. AC16 (+4Dex +3natl -1sz); Acrob +8, Percp +11, SnsMtv +5, Swim +9.
War Horse (6HD) $1200 BAB:+4 . . Str 22, Dex 20, Con 22, Int 2, Wis 17, Cha 11; Fort +11 Rflx +10 Will +5; AC17 (+5Dex +3natl -1sz); Acrob +10, Percp +11, SnsMtv +5, Swim +10, 8 tricks.
War Horse (7HD) $1600 BAB:+5 . . Str 22, Dex 20, Con 22, Int 2, Wis 17, Cha 11; Fort +11 Rflx +10 Will +5; AC18 (+5Dex +4natl -1sz); Acrob +10, Percp +12, SnsMtv +5, Swim +10.
War Horse (8HD) $2000 BAB:+6/+1. Str 22, Dex 20, Con 22, Int 2, Wis 18, Cha 11; Fort +12 Rflx +11 Will +6; AC18 (+5Dex +4natl -1sz); F: Trample(1d6+9, DC20); Acrob +10, Percp +13, SnsMtv +6, Swim +10.
Wooly Rhino (8HD) $3000 BAB:+6/+1. Str 28, Dex 10, Con 21, Int 2, Wis 13, Cha 3; Rflx +13 Fort +6 Will +3; AC19 (+10natl -1sz); F: Diehard, Endurance, Grt Fort, Skl Fcs(Percp); Percp +15; Pwrfl Chg(gore, 4d8+18), Trample(2d6+13, DC23).

Racehorse (2+2HD) $600 BAB:+1 . . Str 20, Dex 18, Con 21, Int 2, Wis 17, Cha 11; Fort +8 Rflx +7 Will +3;.. AC15 (+4Dex +2natl -1sz); F: Endurance, Run; Percp +8, 6 tricks, Spd 50. baseline.
Racehorse (3HD) $1200 BAB:+2 . . Str 20, Dex 19, Con 21, Int 2, Wis 17, Cha 11; Fort +8 Rflx +7 Will +4;.. AC15 (+4Dex +2natl -1sz); Acrob +8, Percp +8, 7 tricks, Speed 52.
Racehorse (4HD) $2400 BAB:+3 . . Str 21, Dex 20, Con 21, Int 2, Wis 17, Cha 11; Fort +9 Rflx +8 Will +4;. AC16 (+4Dex +3natl -1sz); F:Alertness; Acrob +9, Percp +10, SnsMtv +5, Swim +9, Speed 55.
Racehorse (5HD) $4500 BAB:+3 . . Str 21, Dex 21, Con 21, Int 2, Wis 17, Cha 11; Fort +9 Rflx +9 Will +4;. AC17 (+5Dex +3natl -1sz); Acrob +10, Percp +11, SnsMtv +5, Swim +9, Speed 57.
Racehorse (6HD) $7200 BAB:+4 . . Str 21, Dex 21, Con 21, Int 2, Wis 17, Cha 11; Fort +10 Rflx +10 Will +5; AC17 (+5Dex +3natl -1sz); Acrob +11, Percp +11, SnsMtv +5, Swim +9, 8 tricks, Speed 60.
Racehorse (7HD) $11200 BAB:+5 . . Str 21, Dex 22, Con 21, Int 2, Wis 17, Cha 11; Fort +10 Rflx +10 Will +5; AC18 (+5Dex +4natl -1sz); Acrob +12, Percp +12, SnsMtv +5, Swim +9, Speed 62.
Racehorse (8HD) $16000 BAB:+6/+1. Str 22, Dex 23, Con 21, Int 2, Wis 17, Cha 11; Fort +11 Rflx +11 Will +5; AC18 (+5Dex +4natl -1sz); F: Trample(1d6+9, DC20); Acrob +12, Percp +12, SnsMtv +5, Swim +10, Speed 65.


I have no idea how the cost and the mechanics all balance out, but I like the idea. I too have always thought that a mounted warrior shouldn't have to be a special class just to have a horse that doesn't die easily at higher level.


well, I've outlined two types of horses; one for combat and one for speed. Of course the racehorses are going at HD*War Horse price as Race horses are a rich man's game.

I'm just waiting on some constructive checking of the details <grin> as I think this is a logical step for most games.

The improved mounts are out in Animal Archive, though it's hard to find in print as I think it has sold out.
In PFS characters can buy a (CharLvl-1)HD mount with an exception for the horse and war horse. It would also be a good house rule to implement to keep things from getting out of hand.


whew... I thought there might be some more thread action on this...

Dark Archive

copying this! Thanks!


just bumping this as I'm looking for comments from experienced GMs on the price scaling as it's really somewhat of a new thing applicable to purchasing animals/critters.

The other path was the 3.0 idea that $5GP=1XP. Exception, the archmage’s SLA High Arcana scaled at $10GP=1XP.
This would mean taking the experience point reward for killing the critter and converting it to gold. Of course it depends on the APL or level of the character buying the beast which is incongruent with a flat baseline pricing system. It does scale "power" a bit better indicating a 2HD horse isn't much of a challenge or help to a 6HD character.

Price(GP) approximately = -25 +50*HD +25*(HD^2) to -25*HD +50*HD^2 +25*(HD^3).
or (x+0.5858)(x-1.4142) to x(x+0.5858)(x-1.4142); (-1 +/-sqrt2)


Azothath wrote:
whew... I thought there might be some more thread action on this...

No need for further discussion, I think you nailed it on the first try.

I've been doing something like this for years. :D


bump <grin>


2015 - how time flies

Dark Archive

honestly, just buy a yak. at only 24gp its cheaper and more combat capable than a horse


Name Violation wrote:
honestly, just buy a yak. at only 24gp its cheaper and more combat capable than a horse

I mean, you're not wrong, exactly. And I've used bison(yaks) with mage-bred(converts easily enough and there aren't any equivalent templates) for the first six or seven levels easily enough. But that's not exactly useful as far as Azothath's original premise goes.

The premise being somewhere in the neighborhood of 'given the commonality of horses and that persons themselves level, how can we have a fair cost for level adjusted and setting appropriate horses' or that's how I am understanding it.

It's a solid idea, and it makes more roleplay sense than riding around on stranger creatures that might not be region or character appropriate.

On an off note, Azothath, how would you factor in added templates? I'm guessing you treat the CR adjustment of a template as HD in your calculations, or would you consider that differently based on certain templates?


heavy war horse has the Advanced template.

A yak is a herd animal and domesticated yaks are likely to gain 'Docile' then require Combat Training to overcome it. That 'feature' was added to horses but didn't get past there though the verbage supports it... the price of combat trained yaks is the other question.

You are correct that this is about horses staying as acceptable mount options as characters advance. Then attaching a price to that for a game balanced option.

Templates can be a tricky business. It is difficult to quantify the abilities and then the cumulative effect of Type transitions (like human to vermin then to undead). CR ratings are rough. IMO CR ratings are okay for applying one temple.
Generally I'd say, cool! but then it's not a horse anymore is it?


=== posts ===

Spell: Discorporation:C0
Spell: Celestial Healing:C1{rework}
Spell: Twilight Knife:K2 {rework}
Spell: Lsr Shadow Walk:I3

Magic Item: Candy Surprise $50 (a chaotic magical candy for children made originally by prankish witches(of course!)).

Monster: Barkgator NN Med animal (reptile) CR:1 (aka tree gator, trunk caiman, forest snapper) (crocodillia latrarémorsu) {note the natural coloration}
Monster: Cladium Tumba Mother NN Med plant (grass) CR 3 (aka grave-sedge, widow’s needles, numbs-nails) & link to regular grave-sedge CR:0.25.
Monster: Helminth Swarm NN Fine vermin(swarm) CR:3 (aka undead cleanup)
Monster: Worm that Inhabits (Worm that Walks template) CR:15

Weapon: Automatic Crossbows $1350.

Poison(mythic/silly): Swansong Poison {priceless}

*this* Purchased Mounts Purchased Horses

Special Material: Hagcloth

Feat: Arithmancy{rework, Digital Roots process}
Feat: Sacred Geometry {rework using Digital Roots & see 13th post}
Feat: Combat Expertise{rework} see Def Wpn Training {rework}
Feat: Defensive Weapon Training{rework} see Combat Expertise {rework}

Sense: Spiritsense (Su)


Seems pretty neat.

Shame I missed this the first two go-arounds (goes around?).

Te'Shen wrote:
The premise being somewhere in the neighborhood of 'given the commonality of horses and that persons themselves level, how can we have a fair cost for level adjusted and setting appropriate horses' or that's how I am understanding it.

I can't say why, but after reading that, I'm just imagining a mount NPC class for animals that just serves to up their hp and defenses. Maybe armor proficiency proper for barding and an increased ability to move their full speed in heavier armor.

Or a pack animal NPC class just for increased carrying capacity and resistance to being made into lunch.


I've seen something similar in one of my v.old d20 supplements (I don't have access to them at the moment). It had different stats for different types of thoroughbred horses but didn't really cover advancement.

I guess there is no reason why an animal couldn't gain experience and character levels with the party. It might require moving to the fast xp track or applying a multiplier or bonus xp to adjust for the increased number of recipients but should be doable without upsetting the game.


Hugo Rune wrote:

...

I guess there is no reason why an animal couldn't gain experience and character levels with the party. It might require moving to the fast xp track or applying a multiplier or bonus xp to adjust for the increased number of recipients but should be doable without upsetting the game.

like the Class Feature Animal Companion...

I'm just trying to provide a way through cash that doesn't upset/outshine the Animal Companion shtick and makes a modicum of sense given that there are other price point options... There are tigers and elephants... it's just that they tend to (fatally) nip stable hands and destroy barns to escape the mice (lol...)...


In the original I only went to 8HD but with the formula you could extend it which is why I published it AND there are in game implications to pricing animals. I'd assume the RAW prices are eyeballed, at least Poison prices are worse LoL.
My concern was with the Racehorses at *2 cost as in the Game once past 8th level things are getting rather magical including travel and the Mount is competing with magical items and weapons for resources(aka cash). In RL & history racehorse crazy prices are a thing. I think I'd apply a pricing curve of discounting 5% from 200% after 4HD {thus only 130% at 18HD}.
Ofcourse mount HD cannot exceed PC level with a minimum of 2HD.

You also need to pay attention to Animal type Feats for the given HD.
I was adding +2.5ft mov rate per HD to the Racehorse as Spd:100 would seem to be a reasonable maximum.
I think the Warhorse should gain +1 natl armor every 4 HD as it is not gaining speed.

It is also hard to compare a pegasus or bulette to a racehorse as flight is a superior movement and burrow has its benefits. I wanted to model those but at the time the post was sucking air.

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