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I'm thinking like the mountain stations in lord of the rings where you have a small place way up on a frozen mountain top keeping watch to light a torch or a watchstation deep in the depths of a mountain or a teleported lair at the bottom of the ocean. That is a place where you can't farm or use natural resources around and importing goods is hard. So far I have . . .
1) Goodberry Bush: Grow 6 goodberries a day, provide meals for 2 medium creatures a day.
2) Tengu Jug: Turn water into plum liqour, tea.
3) Decanter of endless water: Supply water.
4) Sustaining Spoon: More food in this case gruel to feed four humans a day.
5) Platter of feasting: Turn that gruel into a steak dinner.
Are there any other items people would suggest to supply and make life a little more comfortable for those stuck out there?
Cauldron of Plenty
Either a sapling rod or a staff of feast and famine might be useful. Both are more affordable than a rod of security.
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Interesting though I wonder how natural ground would work with magical gorund. Just pondering using the sapling rod in the demiplane made by the rod of security. Same with nesting mages mansions inside mages mansions.
The staff's curious although it doesn't say how many leaves or how long to regrow them. Interesting item though.
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An alternate (terrain-specific) version of a Desert Veil would be handy.
A lot depends on how much you have to spend and how permanent you want it to be. A Lesser Demiplane can be made permanent for 17,500 gp, then add a portal and the bountiful feature (and other features). Of course you need access to 9th-level spells to make the portal.
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An alternate (terrain-specific) version of a Desert Veil would be handy.
A lot depends on how much you have to spend and how permanent you want it to be. A Lesser Demiplane can be made permanent for 17,500 gp, then add a portal and the bountiful feature (and other features). Of course you need access to 9th-level spells to make the portal.
Money's no issue as its not like all these items would be used just building a list that can then be picked from to allow different areas to have isolated supplies and comforts.
I do love the demi-plane spells even if like most extradimensional spaces they're a bit small for more than an individual. You need demiplane for bountiful the lesser version wont do. The other issue is you need to use up 1 cube for enough ingredients for 1 medium creature or 2 for a large.
Need to look up permanent interaction with adding other traits and whether you could put them into another place like mages mansion or the rod of security above. Hmmm.
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I do love the demi-plane spells even if like most extradimensional spaces they're a bit small for more than an individual.
Compared to the size of a watchpost? Not really. (see below)
You need demiplane for bountiful the lesser version wont do.
I think we're saying the same thing here. You do need the create demiplane spell for bountiful and greater for the portal. I was suggesting just making a lesser one as the base because it is cheaper to make permanent, then adding the traits.
The other issue is you need to use up 1 cube for enough ingredients for 1 medium creature or 2 for a large.
If you can create the portal your minimum CL is 17, which is 51 10'x10' cubes. That's a lot of food. And that's over 5,000 square feet, so it's not particularly crowded.
Or you could just pay the extra 5,000 gp and start with greater. At 20 cubes/level that's at least 340 cubes, over 34,000 square feet.
If there is a keep even a small one there is no reason they cannot grow a garden. Spells can be used to create and enhance a suitable environment. A resident druid would be incredibly useful for this.
Soften Earth and Stone can be used to turn natural stone into dirt. Plant Growth can be used to increase the output of the garden. You could also grow mushrooms and other edible fungus. It would also be fairly easy to setup an area to raise small animals like chickens. Underground streams may provide some fish as well.
In a fantasy world setting up a sustainable food supply is not that difficult. A 5th level druid should be able to get it started and maintain it fairly well.
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Expedition Pavilion
Campfire Bead
Safecamp Wagon
Bathing Basin
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I do love the demi-plane spells even if like most extradimensional spaces they're a bit small for more than an individual.Compared to the size of a watchpost? Not really. (see below)
You need demiplane for bountiful the lesser version wont do.I think we're saying the same thing here. You do need the create demiplane spell for bountiful and greater for the portal. I was suggesting just making a lesser one as the base because it is cheaper to make permanent, then adding the traits.
The other issue is you need to use up 1 cube for enough ingredients for 1 medium creature or 2 for a large.If you can create the portal your minimum CL is 17, which is 51 10'x10' cubes. That's a lot of food. And that's over 5,000 square feet, so it's not particularly crowded.
Or you could just pay the extra 5,000 gp and start with greater. At 20 cubes/level that's at least 340 cubes, over 34,000 square feet.
True I guess I just love the concept of demiplanes while hating the size limit.
An average English farm is 85 hectares so even a maximum level greater one relies on magic to supply food being unable to be self sustaining. Also no I don't think you need 85 hectares to be self sustaining (they're commercial farms) but you do need more space than the demiplanes give. Not to mention each successive casting gives you less value of space going 1/2, 1/3, 1/4 and so on. On top of which that space is flat not a sphere or the like.
The best sphere you can get is 7 layers 343 cubes for a radius of 35 feet from the center point (the remaining 57 cubes aren't enough for another layer much less to expand the whole sphere). In contrast genesis (a cleric spell) takes longer to get going but gives you 180 feet radius for the first casting (5 times larger in area) and then increases the radius by another 60 feet per successive casting which as the sphere gets bigger means you are getting steadily more value per casting as it expands in every direction.
Even changing them from x cubes per level to x foot radius per casting (30, 100, 200) would make a huge difference and you still need to pay the permanency cost. Yes 200 feet up seems like a lot of wasted space at the center but the average apple tree is 20 feet while redwoods can grow to over 200 feet and if you're putting in a mountain, keep, lake or the like. In comparison going the full 7 layers 35 foot radius would give you room for apple tree's and a bit above so your not going to want to reduce it much but it means your looking at only 70 square feet land area. I suppose you could have a ceiling of only 10 feet and rely on nuts to survive but that brings you back to relying on magic and if I'm doing a demiplane i'd want it to be naturally self sustaining rather than magically . . .
But I'm derailing my own thread. Suffice it to say I feel the demiplane really only works for specialized things and not for long term habitation which I suppose a garden would be.
If there is a keep even a small one there is no reason they cannot grow a garden. Spells can be used to create and enhance a suitable environment. A resident druid would be incredibly useful for this.
Soften Earth and Stone can be used to turn natural stone into dirt. Plant Growth can be used to increase the output of the garden. You could also grow mushrooms and other edible fungus. It would also be fairly easy to setup an area to raise small animals like chickens. Underground streams may provide some fish as well.
In a fantasy world setting up a sustainable food supply is not that difficult. A 5th level druid should be able to get it started and maintain it fairly well.
Not just a suitable food supply but also creature comforts. Sure an onsite spell caster can cover any food/drink needs just put a low level cleric there. I'm looking more for items that can be left for anyone posted there to use and areas where growing a garden isn't possible like the bottom of the sea or a cave with limited room.
definitely a lyre of building, along with a skillful enough person to make the dc 18 skill checks.
the first ability is just amazing - protecting all building within 300 feet for 30 minutes from ANY ATTACKS (including magical attack such as horn of blasting, a disintegrate etc). just imagine what would happen to the Big Bad Wolf if the little piggy in the straw house had that..
the second ability gaining the work equal to 6 days of 100 men working per hour used (30 min is 3 days so X2) and the fact it doesn't state for how long the performer can continue as long as he doesn't fail... you probably would be out of resources before it would matter.
let's say he was able to do 5 checks after the first free hour. that is labor equal to 100 men working for 36 days! in a quarter of a day no less.
best part is that the magic item is reusable so a ruler can have it (and the performer) move around building outposts where needed. after all the 2nd use can only be done once a week so while waiting for it to recharge the performer can travel to the next location. (or help erecting a great wall).
in the above example (6 hours once a week) the cost to have such work done vie manpower is 1 sp per person a day ("An untrained hireling is a crier, laborer...") so a check as above for something equal 3,600 days of labor would cost 360 gp. after 9 months the items work should pay for the cost to buy it (not including paying for said performer for 37~ days of work). it would be even less if he can work for more hours each time (10 hours would be 6000 men's worth or 600 gp a day).
..and now im picturing the workload of an undead or construct performer who doesn't stop to rest and is good enough to hit the 18 mark dc...
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If space is the issue, that's one thing.
But being at the bottom of the sea? Whatever you had to do to make it habitable for ordinarily surface-dwelling folk would probably also include something that gave enough light and warmth to be able to grow something.
Likewise, there should be ways to make it warm enough to at least be able to grow things inside of a greenhouse in a more frigid environment.
If there is a keep even a small one there is no reason they cannot grow a garden. Spells can be used to create and enhance a suitable environment. A resident druid would be incredibly useful for this.
Soften Earth and Stone can be used to turn natural stone into dirt. Plant Growth can be used to increase the output of the garden. You could also grow mushrooms and other edible fungus. It would also be fairly easy to setup an area to raise small animals like chickens. Underground streams may provide some fish as well.
In a fantasy world setting up a sustainable food supply is not that difficult. A 5th level druid should be able to get it started and maintain it fairly well.
A level 1 Wizard or Druid (or, heck, a variant Sloth Rune Guardian) can provide soil with Expeditious Construction's earth walls that can then be broken apart the old-fashioned way.
AFAIK, fertilizing that soil magically would require either the Bag of Everlasting Dung or the Beanstalk spell, which ultimately creates permanent compost. Animals in the area can also be a source of manure.
I know there's a canonical wizard with a tower on the sun, don't know how he did it but I imagine growing things outside a greenhouse would be an issue. Same with below the sea protecting a structure is one thing making a bubble of surface level conditions another. Same with building on a mountain peak limited space. Either way providing for people is an issue hence my trying to build up a list of useful items.
Even if you can make a surface bubble you need a LOT of space the general consensus is 5 to 10 acres PER PERSON. Now magic goes a long way to offsetting that but this is why I'm looking into items that will generate food, breathable conditions, comfortable conditions, water, clothing, etc to sustain a place without needing casters on tap. As I semi-ranted above the demiplane spell can't even be self sustaining for 1 person without magical food bounty creation.
Under the sea is not that big of a problem. There is plenty of life in the sea. All you need is a way to breathe water and you can harvest food without any problems. There is also lot of fish and other animals so that you are not stuck with a vegetarian diet. The food is not going to be the same, but that does not mean it is not good. Underground can also have food sources. Mushrooms and fungus do not require a lot of resources and can be grown vertically to save space.
If you want the same foods as are on the surface world it is going to be difficult, but if you are willing to adapt it should be fairly easy. There are plenty of fantasy races that live in these environments. If food and comfort was so difficult no one would live there.
Plant growth last for a full year and affects all plants within a half mile. You don’t need to have a resident spell caster all you need is to cast it once a year.
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All the stuff about self-supporting estates in a demiplane is tangential.
The original request was for magical ways to "make life a little more comfortable for those stuck out there." Not to create a place for them to settle.
If I'm coming off my shift way up on top of a frozen mountaintop - instead of a supper of warmed-up jerky and gruel I'd love to hear my commanding officer say "step through this door into a magical land full of trees, ponds, and waterfalls with fruits, grains, and nuts to eat. On the other side it is a pleasant spring day. It even has the minor positive-dominant trait in case you took some hurt during your watch."
If you want to be really creative you can play around with the "Time" feature. A kind ruler could overstaff the watchpost, and give the dimension the half-time trait. Sleep for 8 hours and 16 hours have passed outside. When you finish your rotation at the watchpost you are actually younger than you would have been if you stayed on the material plane the whole time. Or a callous ruler could do the opposite. Double-time trait would let your watchers be available for their shift more often, but they would age faster than staying on the material.
As for a non-vegetarian diet - chickens are tiny. I don't recall if there's a "food conversion factor" published anywhere but you can probably feed 8 or 16 of them with one 10'x10' square's worth of food (normal medium creature). Could do something similar with fish in your ponds.
And maybe we're misunderstanding your scale. When I hear "watchpost" I'm thinking 6-10 people max. Probably more like 3-5. There's going to be plenty of room for that many people to relax in their time off.
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This Reddit Thread about the viabilty of setting up manorial estates inside of demiplanes is of interest for discussing what you could do with a demiplane, especially if it were a level 20 caster plopping them down. (But doesn't go into things like a Coven massively boosting CL.) A Widened, CL-boosted Greater Create Demiplane can produce an area that can be made to fit 368 Gardens Rooms from Downtime. Round that down to 365 for a bonus divisible by 10 and that +2920 to Goods checks means that they're able to produce 293 Goods capital per day, which would then be worth 5860 gp worth of raw materials for crafting food. (It'd require a bit more math to determine how much Goods it can produce if some fraction of the gold cost of said Goods capital has to be covered by the Gardens, too. I may do that later tonight, though.)
This older thread about building an ecology underground is also likely to be relevant to your interests.
If you just want efficiency, one option would be an item of at-will or X times per day Allfood and a way to generate matter that is then turned into Allfood, such as Expeditious Construction, this time used to create rocks that are then turned into food. It would not be good for long term morale for that to be the only food source, though, but it would definitely be handy for things like sieges or having to feed way more people than usual.
On a similar note, there is the Decompose Corpse > Restore Corpse > Purify Food and Drink loop where you get the body of some tasty meat animal and butcher it while preserving the skeleton. Then Decompose Corpse to remove any remaining bits that aren't of interest before casting Restore Corpse and repeating the process, with plenty of Purify Food and Drink to deal with the rot element.
The reddit one is interesting but I think the whole thread made a mistake in the maths of the plane. They're working off the assumption one casting will get them .9 to 2 acres (which I like as a size) but the actual spell produces 4,000 square feet (ignoring height) when an acre is 40 thousand square feet so the spell is actually generating a tenth of an acre if you can find a way to widen the spell which given its +3 and a 9th level spell I don't see happening.
All the stuff about self-supporting estates in a demiplane is tangential.
The original request was for magical ways to "make life a little more comfortable for those stuck out there." Not to create a place for them to settle.
If I'm coming off my shift way up on top of a frozen mountaintop - instead of a supper of warmed-up jerky and gruel I'd love to hear my commanding officer say "step through this door into a magical land full of trees, ponds, and waterfalls with fruits, grains, and nuts to eat. On the other side it is a pleasant spring day. It even has the minor positive-dominant trait in case you took some hurt during your watch."
** spoiler omitted **
Also true and a fair point, I was actually thinking 16 people in total. But then my thoughts on this were sort of shaped by first ed talks in the book about squads of soldiers which I vaguely recall being around 8 people for a squad combined with stuff at work where 4 people is the minimum for a 24/7 team. 3 shifts and someone to cover when someone is sick/on leave. So sixteen people means you have four groups of four with someone always on watch, downtime (training, maintaining gear, etc) and asleep and four as reserve. Could probably cut the last group of four giving you twelve and 4 people on guard at any time.
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The reddit one is interesting but I think the whole thread made a mistake in the maths of the plane. They're working off the assumption one casting will get them .9 to 2 acres (which I like as a size) but the actual spell produces 4,000 square feet (ignoring height) when an acre is 40 thousand square feet so the spell is actually generating a tenth of an acre if you can find a way to widen the spell which given its +3 and a 9th level spell I don't see happening.
The 9th-level spell (create demiplane, greater) gives you 20 10'x10' squares per caster level. Assuming a 20th-level casting that's 400 squares, or 40,000 square feet. Just under an acre.
Widen exists as a (very expensive) Greater Metamagic Rod.
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I think my math is horrible then. Even going back over it I'm hitting 400 squares laid out as a square rather than end to end is 100 squares a side with 4 left over. That's 100 x 100 of half an acre which 200 by 200 surely?
I thought the rod's just let you use metamagic feats if you didn't have them, you still need to apply the modifier e.g. +3 to widen the spell? The rods only say they work as the feat not work as the feat except they don't increase the level.
EDIT
Oh I see where I went wrong each side going in gives you less squares used I need to find out how people are doing this 400 squares to 40,000 acres though as math has never been my strong suite and I'm not seeing the step between 400 and 40,000.
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I think my math is horrible then. Even going back over it I'm hitting 400 squares laid out as a square rather than end to end is 100 squares a side with 4 left over. That's 100 x 100 of half an acre which 200 by 200 surely?
It doesn't matter how you lay out the squares from the spell.
-Greater Create Demiplane is 20 10'x10' squares per caster level-A 20th level caster would get (CL20 x 20 per/level = 400) squares, each 10'x10'
-One 10'x10' square is 100 square feet.
-400 squares x 100 square feet each = 40,000 square feet
I thought the rod's just let you use metamagic feats if you didn't have them, you still need to apply the modifier e.g. +3 to widen the spell? The rods only say they work as the feat not work as the feat except they don't increase the level.
Metamagic rods hold the essence of a metamagic feat, allowing the user to apply metamagic effects to spells (but not spell-like abilities) as they are cast. This does not change the spell slot of the altered spell. All the rods described here are use-activated (but casting spells in a threatened area still draws an attack of opportunity). A caster may only use one metamagic rod on any given spell, but it is permissible to combine a rod with metamagic feats possessed by the rod’s wielder. In this case, only the feats possessed by the wielder adjust the spell slot of the spell being cast.
math has never been my strong suite and I'm not seeing the step between 400 and 40,000.
I think your brain is somehow skipping over the fact that each of the squares created by the spell is 10'x10'. 10 feet on a side. 100 square feet. That's bigger than my childhood bedroom (that I shared with my brother).
If you put two of these squares side-by side, you end up with 10'x20' (200 square feet). Three in a row is 10'x30' (300 square feet). If our 20th level wizard is creating 400 of these 100 square foot squares, we end up with a total of 400 x (10' x 10') = 40,000 square feet.
A custom magic item that provides a continuous Mage’s Magnificent Mansion would cost around 91,000 gp. The description of the spell says it contains enough food for a 9-course banquet for a dozen people per caster level. At 13th level that would be 156 people. Since the spell is a constant effect, the food should be per day.
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I think my math is horrible then. Even going back over it I'm hitting 400 squares laid out as a square rather than end to end is 100 squares a side with 4 left over. That's 100 x 100 of half an acre which 200 by 200 surely?It doesn't matter how you lay out the squares from the spell.
-Greater Create Demiplane is 20 10'x10' squares per caster level
-A 20th level caster would get (CL20 x 20 per/level = 400) squares, each 10'x10'
-One 10'x10' square is 100 square feet.
-400 squares x 100 square feet each = 40,000 square feetI thought the rod's just let you use metamagic feats if you didn't have them, you still need to apply the modifier e.g. +3 to widen the spell? The rods only say they work as the feat not work as the feat except they don't increase the level.Metamagic rods hold the essence of a metamagic feat, allowing the user to apply metamagic effects to spells (but not spell-like abilities) as they are cast. This does not change the spell slot of the altered spell. All the rods described here are use-activated (but casting spells in a threatened area still draws an attack of opportunity). A caster may only use one metamagic rod on any given spell, but it is permissible to combine a rod with metamagic feats possessed by the rod’s wielder. In this case, only the feats possessed by the wielder adjust the spell slot of the spell being cast.math has never been my strong suite and I'm not seeing the step between 400 and 40,000.I think your brain is somehow skipping over the fact that each of the squares created by the spell is 10'x10'. 10 feet on a side. 100 square feet. That's bigger than my childhood bedroom (that I shared with my brother).
If you put two of these squares side-by side, you end up with 10'x20' (200 square feet). Three in a row is 10'x30' (300 square feet). If our 20th level wizard is creating 400 of these 100 square foot squares, we end up with a...
No, not so much skipping as interpreting it as 10 square feet in size. Hmm that changes things quite a bit. I think the issue is 100 square feet sounds much larger than a 10 foot square. Bear in mind I live in a metric country so i only deal with feet in pathfinder.
So a 10 x 10 x 10 cube would have 10 squares for large creatures? Just trying to visualize it here.
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Forget about the third dimension for a minute. 10 feet is about 3.05 meters. A square 10'x10' (100 square feet) is about 9.3 square meters.
400 of these squares makes a bit over 3700 square meters. That's more than half of a typical professional football (soccer) pitch.
Or to use an in-game comparison: The standard flip-mats Paizo sells (like Watch Station) show an area of 18,000 square feet. The 40,000 square feet a CL20 greater create demiplane makes is bigger than two flip-mats side-by-side.
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Just so we're clear, what is the objection to using the demiplane's magic to feed people but not magic items that cast spells to feed them?
The Flask of Endless Sake likely also bears mentioning among the other items that have already come up.
** spoiler omitted **...
Mainly just that I'm looking for items that will make living in a remote/inhospitable region more liveable. Especially as they're easier to relocate.
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In all honesty there are a lot of things besides food that is going to make living somewhere more enjoyable. Eating a 9 course banquet in a small cave damp cave smelling of dirt and mold is not really going to be that enjoyable after the first few times. What you should be focusing on are ways to make the environment more pleasant and provide entertainment.
The Spell permanent Image can do a lot to make the environment a lot more pleasant. It includes visual, auditory, olfactory and thermal elements. This allows you to create pretty much any surrounding you want. Now your mess hall is a luxurious chamber rivaling that of the finest noble house, your sleeping chamber is a comfortable meadow with a babbling brook to lure you to sleep. Even your latrine is a pleasant environment that does not stink. Since you can voluntarily fail a save you can enjoy the benefits of the environment even knowing it is not real.
Hallow would be another spell to use for these locations. The entire site gets protection from evil, and it prevents any bodies from becoming undead. It also allows endure elements to be “fixed” to the site. Endure elements makes it so that all the inhabitants of the location can exist comfortable in conditions between -50 and 140 degrees. Combined with permanent illusion it provides a safe comfortable environment regardless of the actual conditions. The endure elements will have to be renewed once a year, but that should not be that difficult.
Those two spells could be used to setup an incredibly luxurious environment that would be better than reality in a lot of ways. Being assigned to an isolated location like this could become a premium assignment instead of something to be avoided. The cantrip prestidigitation can change the flavor of food, so any nutritious food can taste like a feast.
Mindscapes from Occult Adventures seems like it would work well for entertainment. You can create a permanent mind scape but getting in after it is initially setup might be a problem. I am not really that familiar with Occult Adventures so I might be missing something. From what I can see a mindscape can be setup that allows people to exit, but entry after it is created requires the create mindscape door spell. If that problem could be solved, you could create mindscapes that allowed different entertainments. Not sure if you can have imaginary creatures as part of a mindscape, but if so, it would increase the entertainment value.