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That’s actually a really fun suggestion and the more I look at it, the more I don’t think I’m gonna achieve what I’m aiming for with startoss.

Feels like it’d also possibly play nicer with divine weapon. What about

1) Weapon Finesse
1) Weapon Focus (dagger)
3) Extra lay on hands/slashing grace
5) Slashing grace/extra lay on hands
7) Deific obedience
9) Piranha strike
11) Spell Penetration
13) Quicken Spell
15) Steadfast Personality
17) Greater Spell penetration
19) Improved initiative


I think based off the very good point of the 10ft range and as you mentioned how difficult it is to do a full round of attacks, it’ll be easier to jump ship on the dagger throwing concept.

Leaning bad touch, I could skirt the evilness, by reserving it for when she’s fighting confirmed evil creatures. A bit like a smite.

And sadly no I’ve not managed to sleep through 2020.

I’ve been writing and not yet successfully publishing a novel, and I got more into 5e for a while, but it is a very shallow pit lol.

And I keep finding myself wanting to homebrew a lot more with 5e.

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avr wrote:

My comparison for an omdura is an inquisitor who can share their judgements, but I can see the bard comparison.

You're clearly feat starved so I'd drop the quick draw. You can get wrist sheaths to have a couple accessible as swift actions, but mostly you'll use just one in melee or throwing as a standard action with startoss (i.e. you can draw as a move action combined with a normal move). If startoss isn't good enough to use that's three wasted feats, drop those instead of QD. Extend spell is cheap as a metamagic rod. There are plenty more feats to take the place of whatever you drop - more ranged feats, encouraging spell, spell penetration etc.

Hey AVR long time no see.

Wrist sheaths is a good shout. Startoss style is great in general for spreading damage, but part of the reason I invested in it is to give me a damage boost since you can’t use slashing grace on thrown weapons.

I would like to try and work out a way to do a full round of attacks with the dagger.

What ranged feats would you suggest if we drop quick draw and extend spell. I’m not too familiar with thrown weapon feats.

Spell pen might be a shout, and maybe slashing Grace just for a better melee full round.

I’m not super enthused by encouraging spell. I’d rather extend heroism then buff it slightly I think.

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Hey! I'm very late to the party lol, but I think Omadura seems like a fun class, it kind of feels like a divine bard that's a bit fighty.

So I (obviously) love Pharasma and decided to do a Pharasma one and just saw where it would take me and this is where I end up.

This is where I ended up.

Class: Omadura
Race: Human

Cha: 20 (2)
Int: 12
Wis: 10
Str: 10
Con: 14 (1)
Dex: 18 (2)

God, Pharasma

Fates favoured

1) Weapon Finesse
1) Weapon Focus (dagger)
3) Point blank shot
5) Startoss Style
7) Quick Draw
9) Startoss Comet
11) Deific Obedience
13) Quicken Spell
15) Extended Spell
17) Startoss Shower
19) Steadfast Personality

Inside you will find the final spell list.

Now the theory is primary function will be as a buffer, with secondary functions being a fighter/offensive caster. With the ability to fight in melee or ideally throwing daggers (cause Pharasma) from range. Also stylistically I wanted to lean into being a cloth wearing character, so I figured it'd go chain shirt, into mithril, into eventual bracers of armour. Hence dex based.


0) Read Magic, Create Water, Daze, Acid Splash, Detect Magic, Enhanced Diplomacy

1st) Cure Light Wounds, Protection from Evil, Divine Favour, Obscuring Mist, shadow trap, Stone shield, Disguise Self

2nd) Cure Moderate Wounds, Invisibility, Lesser Restoration, Burst of Radiance, Blistering Invective, Hold Person, Spiritual Weapon

3rd) Cure Serious Wounds, Dispel Magic, Resist Energy Communal, Magic Circle Against Evil, Heroism, Litany of Entanglement, Vision of hell

4th) Cure Critical Wounds, Aura of Doom, Blessings of fervour, Divine Power, Hold Monster, Litany of escape, Invisibility Greater

5th) Cure light wounds mass, Flame Strike, True Seeing, Breath of life, Air Walk Communal, Plane Shift

6th) Cure moderate wounds mass, Cold Ice Strike, Heal, Dispel Magic Greater, Overwhelming Presence, Roaming Pit

Inside you will find backstory in case you give a s!+%.


I'm stuck on the name, I've not got there yet but aside from that I have a pretty clear idea.

She grew up in a family devoted to the church of Pharasma and from an early age showed signs of being one of pharasma's chosen. Whippoorwill would often be sighted near her and sometimes even land on her body. (hence fates favoured).

Showing an aptitude for curative magic she was taken to be privately tutored by the sisters of their nearest temple to Pharasma, where she would be tutored in the arts of fortune-telling, midwifery and dressing the dead.

As an adolescent, she started to receive visions of the 'Those Who Remain' in her dreams. which is when her training took a turn for the military (hence fencer). Teaching her knife play and to turn her magic towards combat means and routing out followers of the gods of the outer sphere.

Now as a fully realised Omadura, she feels driven to route out those followers, but she often regrets her life taking such a strong turn towards violence. She yearns for the days of playing with the whippoorwill and being taught the art of fortune-telling. To this day she still collects Tarot Cards decks and sometimes paints her own, with limited success.

What's exciting about this character to me at least is its utility as a buffer, its invocation Aura's are great combat buffs, especially once they get access to blessings of fervour to work in random.

On top of which they get great cleric utility spells, (their spell list, in general, is really lit), being able to combine offensive castings of litany's with useful out of combat spells like disguise self, resist the energy and eventually, communal airwalk, not to mention it can do all this whilst playing a grat face roll.

Also, I'd like to mention a high level stand out is Greater Invocation purify, equating to a +5 to all your parties saves, all day. That's massive at high levels.

Here is the level 5 plan. For proof of concept.


Action: Invoke Justice

Action: Spiritual Weapon/Blistering Invective/Hold Person/Burst of Radiance

Action: Shadow Trap/Attack +9 (1D4+4) (assuming a +1 weapon)

Here is the level 12 plan.


Precast Heroism.

Action: Blessings of Fervour
Move: Invoke Destruction & Justice
Swift: Divine Might

Swift: Litany of Entangling
Action: Vision of Hell/Hold Person/Attack +26/+26/21 (1D4 + 14) (assuming a +3 weapon, blink belt, +4 Dex belt, 4 Charisma band and +2 dex from level)
Move: As required.

Here is the level 20 plan.


Pre Cast Heroism.

Action: Blessings of Fervour
Swift: Improved Invocation (Destruction, Justice)
Move: As required

Swift: Divine Might
Action: 38/38/33/28 (1D4 + 35)
Move: As required

Swift: Quickened Divine Favour
Action: 42/42/37/32 (1D4 + 39)
Move: As required


Action: Blessings of Fervour/Roaming Pit/Overwhelming Presence/Hold Monster
Swift: Improved Invocation (Destruction, Justice)
Move: As required

Swift: Cold Ice Strike/Litany of Entanglement
Action: Flame Strike/Aura of Doom/Heal
Move: Move/Roaming Pit

Swift: Cold Ice Strike/Litany of Entanglement
Action: Flame Strike/Aura of Doom/Heal
Move: Move/Roaming Pit

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Low magic to me, means how common magical items and magical schools/learning is within the setting.

It doesn’t mean limiting what spells can or can’t be known. And what classes can be played should be agreed in session 0.

Also there’s not much point categorising classes below 4th level casting.

That said here’s my system.

9th level casting > 6th > 4th

Self explanatory

Learned > innate

Innate just happens, learned requires schools to teach, learning and research. In a world without those things learned should be the rarest.

Psychic > arcane > divine

Faith is common even in low magic world and psychic is just much less common than arcane so that’s default. I also consider nature more common than straight religion as nature is self taught and religion usually requires an institution.

Science based magic is a bit tricky and depends on the setting, generally I think low magic settings should lean into alchemy so I’m saying that’s more common.

Here’s the ranking. I’m ignoring none casters with magic from archetypes, the above system should make it relatively easy to workout where they fit.

Kineticist and shifter were also weird and tricky to fit. For the sake of argument I treated the kineticist as a nature based 6th level caster with innate power. And the same for a shifter only a 4th caster.

Also I don’t see the logic of acting like each one class must be rare than another. Some could be equally as common as others.

1. Arcanist/Wizard
2. Witch
3. Psychic
4. Sorcerer
5. Shaman/Druid
6. Cleric
7. Oracle
8. Occultist
9. Summoner/Magus
10. Mesmerist/Spiritualist
11. Bard
12. Inquisitor/Warpriest/Omdura
13. Skald/Hunter
14. Kineticist
15. Investigator/Alchemist
16. Medium
17. Paladin/Antipaladin
18. Bloodrager
19. Ranger
20. Shifter

Also I think the main use of this information should be to be used when creating NPCs to populate the world. And also to inform how NPCs react to player characters.

Not to police character creation.

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LordKailas wrote:
deuxhero wrote:
For Ragathiel, I remember there's a dev comment that his obedience kicks in after making an appropriate kill rather than needing do the killing as part of a ritual. Makes it not terrible if you have an aura of good to use litany of righteousness.

I suddenly have images of a justice system where they execute you and then use the results of your execution to determine your guilt. If you are found to be innocent then you get resurrected.

The witch trials

Only you get eternal life in heaven instead

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If this CR21 holiday one shot with AC between 35-40, epic DR, SR30+ Creature isn’t krampus I’ll eat my Xmas tree.

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I think a lot of this got mis-communicated in the previous thread. I’m hesitant to suggest a lot of straw man was going on but this definitely isn’t the point I was making.

I don inherently have a problem with swarms.

I have a problem with the philosophy that if you’re not prepared for them by some arbitrary level, then it’s more important for a GM to maintain the integrity of their random encounter generator than it is for there players to have fun. Ergo it is the job of the GM to intentionally and knowingly TPK his party regardless of if that will be fun at all. Because it is there fault for not playing the game as said GM expects them too.

I have a problem with that.

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Philippe Lam wrote:
Chromantic Durgon <3 wrote:
If the game ends in a miserable boring tpk to a random encounter because the Gm threw an enemy at the party he knew they couldn’t beat, that’s the GMs fault, not the players.
If the GM gives the players a fair chance and still don't properly prep, it's on the players, not the GM. Why the GM should always accomodate the players. Combats are a mix of everything, shouldn't be always tailor-made.

Not forcing players into certain death situations is not the same and presenting them with tailor made encounters.

Why should a GM accommodate players? Because it’s supposed to be fun.

If you know your players can’t deal with a certain enemy there is no difference between presenting them with that and just something wildly beyond their CR.

It’s just punishing players for not playing the game how you want them too.

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If the game ends in a miserable boring tpk to a random encounter because the Gm threw an enemy at the party he knew they couldn’t beat, that’s the GMs fault, not the players.

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Well to be fair, mithril armour is a call back to lord of the rings so I’d expect it to be well known. And a cyclops helm is a mix maxers paradise.

I’ve never played an AP in my life. All home brew worlds, so niche items being inserted ironically into loote pools wasn’t really a thing for me.

I take the point that it’s just an item I haven’t seen, but my point is, I’ve had a pretty decent amount f time in this game with a lot of groups and to have never seen it means it isn’t reasonable to expect every level 7 party to have it

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Dasrak wrote:

As already mentioned SR is the bane of casters. If you want to go the caster nuke route you're going to need to push it through the ceiling. Possible ways to boost it include:

* Greater Spell Penetration (+4)
* Dweomer Essence (+5)
* Blood Piercing (+Cha)
* Orange Prism Ioun Stone (+1)
(Note that I'm not including Elf since you obviously want to go Sorcerer with a Cha focus)

Since you'll have 13 caster level and presumably +9 Cha, this gets you to an effective 32 on your caster level checks to beat spell resistance. This should be enough to hit fairly reliably.

Battering Blast is probably your best spell option. With spell specialization, either intensified spell or blood intensity, blood havoc, and orc bloodline you can get 21d6+42 (avg 115.5) damage as pure force damage. You can apply the Empowered Spell Metamagic to bring that up to 173 average damage, and with the aid of a lesser metamagic rod you can quicken it to hit twice per round.

Now, I wouldn't write off a martial, either. Martials are much easier to buff than casters, and if you buff heavily you can get a 13th level martial to around +40 to hit. Some back of the napkin math on a naive greatsword barbarian suggests that with proper pre-buffing it can deal around 100 DPR to AC 40. With a more optimized build you should be able to match a battering blast caster while having much more durability.

A battering blast Sorc doesn’t need to focus Cha to the hilt because it doesn’t have a save to pump so they can afford elf, also the Dex helps with the ranged touch attack.

Also I don’t think intensify does much here cause bblast doesn’t have a cl cap

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For me it’s the Eldest. Demon Lords, Archfiends, Great old ones and Empyreal Lords got stats (some of them did anyway).

I truly wish the Eldest had got the same treatment, figures like Magdh, the lantern king and the green mother fascinated me. I wish we got to know more about them before the end.

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I would listen to you DM.

Your damage is going to be meh because your 11 levels of witch won’t really compliment the damage from 3 levels of Magus very well. And that is the least of your worries,

You will also be, extremely, extremely fragile.

If you’re worried about a fragile frontline I would suggest your character look into summoning.

Also a 14th Level witch is a powerful thing, especially I would suggest looking into the split hex feat for action economy.

Double fortune on your rogue and your paladin with split hex in one action is strong.

Also a rather fun strategy to look into might be the what I call “toad in the hole”.

Basically you scar your familiar, then put it in some kind of container, leave it in the hands of your front liner and then you can bounce split hexes off of them. Scar allows you to hex from further than 30ft away. So you can hex the familiar and bounce the hex to another enemy on the front line with split hex.

Means you can cast and hex from a further range.

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I’ve done a similar character in the past.

I think there is something to be said for using the fighter feats to pick up the crit feat line. Since crit fishing is your best damage option as a 1 handed fighter anyway and synergises wonderfully with spell strike.

I agree with others who commented striken heart and vampiric touch, especially since you’re wanting to be in the front line but with only D8s.

Also heroism is a good spell for you, you don’t get many accuracy boosters and you won’t always be able to burn the points to hit touch.

Finally I would say I’m not convinced by bestow curse, your DC probably isn’t going to be staggering and I think it’s more of an NPC Spell to begin with.

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I tend to start between 2 and 4

And saying people stating at higher levels don’t need to role play or don’t care to in a fallacy and it’s dismissive.

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Ahhh yes, powerful necromancer I see


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I just thought it'd be nice for people to have a thread where they could post character concepts they're proud of.

I have made roughly 35 characters all of them have rough storylines and personalities, that mostly get fleshed out when they get played.

But 7 or 8 of them are special, some I have had the opportunity to play, some of them I sadly have not. But I enjoy imagining what It'd be like to play them. Putting them in exciting moments imagining how it would feel to get to be those characters.

So for now, I thought I'd post a couple of them, see how people respond, my hope being that people will post there own character concepts they're particularly proud of and then people can talk about what they think is cool about said concepts and people can react to one another. I realise I am now just describing fantasising about having a conversation. LOL.

Anyway for now I'll just post a couple of the concepts I'm proud of and see how that goes.

Zeg Fagin


Zeg is a ratfolk inspired blade swashbuckler 1/ Lamplighter investigator x.

Mechanically generic in so far as he is just a dex fencing style character with a lot of knowledge skills.

But thematically he is one of my stars. So I heard a story, during my degree, that Charles dickens went to the work house (briefly) when he was very young, and a jewish boy named fagin.

Then, when he wrote Oliver Twist, he wrote about an antagonistic character named Fagin, the old jew, who kept little boys and made them steal for him. I found this fascinating and want to know why he decided to name a cruel character after someone he credits with being a decent person.

Anyway I decided to make Zeg what I imagine a decent version of Fagin could be. As such he is a worshipper of Milani, protector of the oppressed who inspires uprisings.

I imagine him travelling the streets of oppressed and impoverished areas at night, with his lantern, finding anyone who oppressed, but particularly children and looking out for them, protecting them and bringing them together.

He would have a rat familiar which would eventually leave him, in the day whilst he slept, only to return in the shape of Azata, Lyrakien (improved familiar), sent by milani to aid him in his mission.

I chose a rat for him, because I envision him travelling a Victorian London like environment, overpopulated, un-hygienic, with little value placed on human life, especially the lives of the poor. And a rat makes perfect sense in that environment, I envision him being considered a second class citizen, probably dirty, and using that to his advantage. To pass unnoticed and unseen.



Petrichor is a Astomoi psychic of the tranquillity discipline.

I imagine some of you have already seen me talking about Petrichor on this site as he is the most recent addition to my collection. I shy'd away from making a psychic Astomoi for the longest time because it felt like the antithesis of creativity. I have a kind of barrier against doing particularly well matched class/race combos, elf wizards and dwarf clerics for example. In reality though I don't think that is a particularly sensible blockage so I decided to get over it.

The idea with Petrichor is that, he grew up knowing his small perspective on the world, aware that he wouldn't ever see the true picture and endeavouring therefore to keep his mind as wide open as possible.

Desperate to go on an adventure, but afraid to go into a world, where everything else can see he him coming before he sees them. That was until he was visited in a dream by Desna and a beautiful black butterfly which he named moonbeam. They showed him the moon and the night sky, which he had never seen before.

Moonbeam in turn joins him, in the real world, as a familiar and he begins his adventure, before too long moonbeam expires and returns to his dreams, only now the prodigious powers of his mind materialise moonbeam again (figment familiar archetype).

At this point he begins his worship of Desna in earnest and considers himself a priest, travelling the countryside and using his powers of enchantment to bring peace and calm to those on the road and in the settlements he comes across, people who he would consider, in need. Sometimes getting it wrong, as he learns how other people's minds work and people's perspective's differ from his own.

I figured being an Astomoi, it would be stupid to ignore how his experience of the world is completely different to most other races. I have been using he, for ease, but he has no biological sex. He can't see in colour without using the "share senses spell". He can rarely see more than whats right in front of him. He doesn't eat or drink, or speak. He just connects with people and inhales the world, thats where his name comes from too. It made sense to be named after a smell. (not my idea)

So I decided to lean into that and go with the naive and innocent explorer seeing the world (literally) through others eyes, for the first time. Doing his best to learn and help people and be good.

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MidsouthGuy wrote:

What I'm really feeling down about is that my group will soon be disbanding, and now I will have to struggle to find a group playing the game that I actually want to play. Finding people that played Pathfinder instead of 5e was difficult when I had to do it a few years ago. Finding a group that plays PF1 now is going to be next to impossible. Sure, there are groups still playing older games, but they are usually made up of friends who have been playing together for years and generally aren't looking for new players. The lack of content, limited customization, number caps, and arbitrary restrictions in PF2 and 5e kill any hope of having fun for me if I try playing those. Jumping ship to a different system that I actually enjoy just puts me back in the same boat of struggling to find people who want to play something other than 5e. So now I will have to spend an unreasonable length of time seeking a new group that's playing what I like the most, play/run a system that I genuinely don't enjoy, or stop gaming altogether.

And that SUCKS.

Living in the UK I have literally never found a game of pathfinder or group pre-existing

I only get to play if I’m GM and then I’m not playing.

For a brief glorious 6 months at uni I had a group and gosh what a joy that was. But even then it was only because I reached out to several gaming societies at uni and asked if any knew of pathfinder and a couple people turned up.

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I have to say I tried to look at PF2 several times and it feels like wading through treacle
Not sure why that it.

I think I’d be more inclined to move over to 5e since it’s so much more played and popular than pf2

And still always start by proposing pathfinder 1 to people I meet who are new. Rather than ever really suggest pf2.

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The idea of getting entangle to help enable your ranged party isn’t a bad idea

But I would say consider taking the swamp grasp hex instead, leaving your patron open.

Thereby allowing you to take the trickster patron, it has some very powerful spells including mirror image, which is good because Witches biggest weakness is defensive casting.

Also, trickster makes sense for an 11 year old.

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+ you don’t lose any more BAB from taking a second level

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There is absolutely nothing that requires a power gamer to not roleplay. This is a fallacy. Being good at making functional characters does not mean you can’t play the character.

I myself consider myself an optimiser, I pick a concept and I try to make it work as well as possible without picking choices that don’t fit that concept.

I have also acted in the theatre, in lady Windermere fan and the woman in black, I have studied acting and have taken improv classes. I take Roleplay just as seriously.

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Baba Yaga is also quite possibly the most powerful statted thing in the entirety of pathfinder.

She has the ability, Queen of Witches, meaning she knows all wizard spells, all witch spells, and can create arcane versions of any divine spells she wants. She can also create her own artefacts.

The things she can do are pretty much as far from the standard as a character can be.

A lv20/Mythic10 PC is CR25. She is CR30.

Thats the gap we're working with. And yes CR is a loose marker at best, but she's pretty much the most deserving of the CR30 of any creature.

So my point is, yes perhaps its possible but generally "Baba Yaga can do it" isn't a very compelling argument unless you're a caster, casting 9th level spells already.

Add to that, symbol spells components are poisonous and I kinda feel like any symbol you put on your skin is gonna get rubbed off real quick, cause skin is folded and moving and stretching and bending.

My solution would be some kind of metal or stone or wooden tablets you could incorporate into your armour or cloak or whatever, which house the symbols. If you really had your heart set of this kind of thing.

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Oooo this is exciting :)

0: I kinda find this one annoying because its so strong its better than most of the tailored to class options. Which kinda enrages me!

1: Agree

2: This one just feels terrible, but then I don't know what I'd want to do with the rogue.

3: I feel like this one just depends on the kind of bard you want to be. It feels weirdly close to something a mesmerist would do though.

4: Agreed

5: I kinda find this one boring to be honest, I kind of find clerics boring though. I feel like something to do with making the channel more fun would be better.

6: I agree this is very NPC vibe, I also feel like the +8 bonus is mechanically very strong.

7: I feel like the one is good if your favoured enemy features heavily in a game you're playing. But the +8 again would be a safer bet for consistency (just to re-iterate, I hate that +8)

8: This feels, just worse than mighty rage.

9: I actually felt conflicted about this one to be honest, especially for the unchained monk. I find it hard to pick.

11: Oh I think this is very dependant from Sorc to Sorc. I have a Verdant Sorc and a especially a vestige sorc who could probably find some more use in a secondary bloodline. Some bloodlines have very meh capstones.

In fact I was thinking of taking an Astral sideline for the Vestige Sorc, who is a Shabti, because I think it would fit his combined lore. For this one in particular I think a lot of whether or not I would take it is if it would make sense to the asthetic of the character.

I also have a draconic sorc, who wouldn't want to give up his cap.

Also if you're making a save or suck sorc (enchantment/illusion/transmutation) tell me why you're not taking that g$+ d&*n +8.

12: I agree

13: I feel like I don't know s%@* about the gunslinger so I can't comment haha. Does seem generically good, but is it better than a +8 to dex? cause thats a + to hit as well...

14: This gives me a similar vibe to the paladin one. Its true its good for the unmounted thing for in caves. But its for that reason I never really consider playing a medium race Cavalier, but thats just me.

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EldonGuyre wrote:

Well, isn't that lovely. My comment was deleted.

Your opinion is still of no particular value.

You’re being needlessly rude.

On-topic: regarding the Paladin behaviour, is the bullying in or out of character and does he have a firm idea of character?

If it’s in characters it’s potentially a more easy fix.

Optimising does not exclude one from roleplaying by default.

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Level 50 Npc tells me all the basic assumptions we have of pathfinder need to be thrown out for advising on your game

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I would miss kinetic form

Do you think the DR would come in handy? I always think it depends mostly on playstyle as to how much value you get.

Force ward is a nice option in almost all cases.

I think the kinetic whisper sage hedgehog is great idea though.

Oh combat reflexes seems like an obvious win.

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So within the relatively new book, heroes of Golarion there is a focus on Mythic abilities for Occult classes (yay)

But I’m wondering about something, is there any notation addressing the fact that for example in the case of the archmage occult classes can’t use any archmage arcana? They require arcane spell casting to function.

The psychic is pretty clearly meant to be an archmage.

The Spiritualist seems to be intended to be a Hierophant, but has no ability to use any divine surge.

This is a pretty consistent issue across the occult classes and a large chunk of the power of a Mythic character, especially early Mythic.

So is there any note in the book that I’m missing for how this should work?

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W E Ray wrote:
gnoams wrote:
If you allow all the published pathfinder content to date, then invulnerable rager is one of the old archetypes that remains decent.


This is, like, the scariest comment ever -- Giant Thank You.

It sounds like, in your experience, all of the unbalanced (broken crap) splat material that's come out over the years is about on par with the Invulnerable Rager -- as if the Invulnerable Rage were 'ahead of its time.' In other words, one of the early unbalanced options, equal to the gross tonnage of unbalanced things available today!

Food for thought comparing your post with TOZ's post.

The most badly balanced book is the core Rulebook which released the core wizard alongside the core rogue and the core monk.

Splat books that make martial better aren’t unbalancing they’re closing (partially closing) the endemic gap that existed since core.

Unless the assumption is martial characters should be worse then these books aren’t unbalancing.

What’s unbalancing is the release of things like mystic geometry.

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He said folks

As in none specific and plural, he’s talking about the state of this forum, not you specifically.

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Have another opponent playing defensive

As is almost always the case, one singular opponent is probably not the answer.

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I feel like all you need to do is look at the definition of abandon

cease to support or look after (someone); desert.
give up completely (a practice or a course of action).

Chasing down an enemy in a fight is actively supporting your allies and the second definition isn’t even arguable.

By this logic every scout in a dungeon (dangerous place) is routinely abandoning their allies.

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Was gonna say the same as Derk

I don’t understand the logic in of bad stats = don’t have to power game

It’s the opposite, it encourages you to work harder.

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Personally I would say yes.

If he was a paladin or Shelyn or Sarenrea or something I’d say you were right.

But iomadea is famously not that level headed or fair minded and is very aggressive

Chasing an armed and dangerous enemy who has fought and presumably wounded (?) allies and yourself in The heat of combat and who you know to be bad, is the opposite of an eye brow raise from her to me.

It’s what she’d do.

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I don’t understand why an apposed roll would make sense to anyone

Being scary and being hard to scare are not to factors that correlated. I knew a very scary teacher who literally ran away from wasps in her class room.

Being powerful and understanding your opponent (hit die numbers and wisdom) are.

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I do too
I ignore them actually lol

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A dwarf with a hammer and medium strength could well already be going for a reach build for the purposes of protecting the back line.

That is the build I would do with a dwarf Inquisitor.

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Inquisitors don’t need high strength to work in melee (or Dex to work at range)

They have quite possibly the most accuracy and damage boosts of any class

Bane + divine Favour + judgement + heroism.

I wouldn’t say having medium strength (I’m assuming 14-16) equates to not doing melee.

Especially if he has a nice hammer.

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Let me think

.Most combat manoeuvres.
.Carry capacities.
.level drain/damage/all the other crap to do with levels
.Gradients of diplomacy

I’m sure there are more but those are the ones I can think of.

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KingGramJohnson wrote:
Chromantic Durgon <3 wrote:
Are the players happy?

Yes, they're having fun. I mean, they're upset that characters died due to unexpected circumstances, and that they basically failed at what they were trying to do, but at the same time they know that they did it to themselves, so they're not upset with me or anything.

And, I think they're excited to use a wish spell and possibly muck about with time.

*I'm* not happy about that, because I would rather them deal with the consequences of their actions and move on rather than try to rewind time and "fix" things, which isn't a guarantee and they may end up making things worse if they do it wrong. But at the same time, I'm a GM who likes to go with the flow, if the players want to try this, and they have the means to do so, I'll let them do it.

But I'm thinking that if they go with the time travel route, they will have to deal with some nasty stuff, which they've been warned about.

Why don't you involve a time dragon :)

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I guess that boils down to different GM styles and depends how the OP runs his games.

I wouldn't respond well to that kind of DMing.

If I win an encounter and trap an enemy only for him to just nope out with narrative power I would not be happy.

Very rocks fall you die vibes.

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Wind wall.

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To answer the question: no they’re not

Also like to point out plenty of things can’t be parried, like ranged attacks and spells and breath weapons. It’s not overpowered at all.

Also like to point out even less thing can be disarmed and sundered

Sounds like very knee jerk over reaction from your DM.

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Loved: 6th Level casters and particularly the addition of the Oracle and witch (for hexes)

Wanted: stronger cantrip options to make low level casters less absolutely abhorrent to play.

Hated: feat chains and feats for things that never needed to be a feat for, just let people make there characters do things, creating a feat for every possible thing imaginable actively stifles improv

Will miss: Classes the vast wealth of classes and archetypes.

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It still surprises me that people don't like the unmonk. I kind of think they're a tone of fun.

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I'd run it as intended.

You pull your punches when you're playing with a group who is just learning the ropes, or if you have an encounter that ends up being hard than intended because you messed up.

Capable experienced players messing up big style (and apparently its a habbit of theirs) is exactly when not to.

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Wait you’re telling me you can plan a character, give it a personality and a backstory for that character. Whilst also caring about stat distribution and making the character functional?

Well blow me down and call me munchkin you’ve cracked the code.

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Gaming Ranger wrote:

So, in conclusion:

1. It is okay to fudge sometimes (maybe).
2. Player expectations vary on honesty, politeness, outcomes, and social norms.
3. We all agree that fudging all the time is wrong.

Okay, I’m glad that is all cleared up.

Another fruitful discussion on the Paizo boards :P

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Literally no-one has said they’re going to do that though.

Nobody in thread talked about making attacks of opportunity miss because a player did a dumb thing.

The amount of straw men in this thread is giving me hey fever

The examples people have been actually giving of when they actually fudge are nothing like that, they were more like

Low level fighter engaged with random mook melee opponent (as they should be), gets crit and the opponent rolls max damage. The fighter is dead in an anti climactic moment, the player did nothing wrong.

Proposed fudge, make the crit into a normal hit, so the opponent still hits they just don’t crit.

They players choices still mattered and they didn’t make any mistake choices to punish anyway.

Literally no-one is saying we don’t let players lose or we don’t punish bad decision making.

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blahpers wrote:
Chromantic Durgon <3 wrote:
blahpers wrote:
PossibleCabbage wrote:
blahpers wrote:
Question: Why do it matter to you how things go?
Because as a GM it is my job to make sure the people at the table are having a good time, and over like 20+ years of doing this I have learned to read the room. So if I'm picking up something like "nobody really feels like another fight here" then there's not going to be one no matter what I wrote down or what the dice say. If an "exploration scene" or "talking scene" or "puzzling scene" would go over better than a combat scene, then that's what's going to happen.
Do your players know that you've been lying to them and negating their agency based on your perception of what they're thinking but not saying?

Do you seriously think players are going to mad they didn't have to do something they didn't want to do and instead got to do something they wanted to do. That still challenged them and required them to use their characters?

I know I wouldn't be.

But hey having fun, in the game I am playing, for fun, is more important to me than being safe in the knowledge that the game went exactly as was planned by the DM to the detriment of fun. I don't understand your agency objection.

Being faced with a different challenge than was originally planned doesn't hurt my agency. My character still acts as I want my choices, still matter in that new scenario, its just a more fun scenario.

If a DM can't adjust his plans to enhance the fun at the table then I think I'm completely lost in this argument.

DMs aren't meant to make fun anymore, they just meant to lorde over some weird simulated reality that people don't need to enjoy, they simply must trudge through at all costs!

Funny; I thought we were discussing lording over a more fluid reality where the GM just up and decides what happens with the players not having any say whatsoever. If that's what you want, I recommend going to a nice book reading. They're a lot...

I can't even decipher what point you're making.

Try less snarky none-sense and more coherent conversation.

at no point in this thread has anyone said or suggested anything even remotely close to "players not having any say whatsoever"

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