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So on the thread about mesmerists, it was brought up that PF2 is still a little light on oddball classes... and I think that's correct. There are players who will walk into an RPG group thinking "I want to play the weirdo". From time to time, I've been that player. For those who want to play weirdo characters with weirdo mechanics, things are still a bit thin on the ground. Now, I totally get why that is - classes that do unusual things with unusual mechanics are inherently difficult to balance. At the same time, recent classes suggest that Paizo has been getting comfortable enough with the balace structure they've set up that they're ready to reach further afield... so let's try to scout out some new fields for them.
This, then, is a place to toss ideas back and forth about weirdo ideas that could really open up the possibilities for players who just want to play something quirky or strange.
So... I looked at the Mesmerist idea fo Tricks, and, leaving behind any thoughts abotu flavor, a lot of it seemed... very similar to what we see in other classes? You're assembling a limited number of limited-use powers at the beginning of the day from a longer list. That part of the game is kind of a lot like wizard. The game as a whole feels a lot like the "item dispenser" part of alchemist, possibly with not quite as many steps. My understanding is that that's not the fun part of alchemist.
So instead of being all about planning out your day and deciding which fights to spend your little tokens on, why not make it more quick-twitch? So... you get a library of these little powers, and each of them does some nifty thing, probably either as a single action or as a reaction, and each one refreshes when you pull off some interesting other thing, and you can only hold a certain number of them charged at any one time. At level one you might have two powers - one generic, one from your class path - and be able to maintain one charged at a time. As you go up in level you might get more and be able to puck up yet more from feats. At level seven, you might have two charges and five powers or some such - maybe three charges and seven powers at level 18. The thing is, you're constantly looking for semi-useful places to dump them, because the next time you manage to get a crit against someone or successfully knock someone prone or an enemy goes down or you succeed on a save or whatever, the power that has that recharges off of that particular thing is going to come back online and if you don't have an open slot for it, it'll be wasted. You're basically constantly either looking for ways to usefully spend the tricks that you have or efficiently recharge one or two more. It lends itself to a chaotic, off-the-cuff combat style, but at the same time, basically everything you do is either helping out your allies in some way (because that's what your tricks do) or Doing Something Useful (because that's how you get them back)
Have it all run off of some sort of fate/luck/chaos magic. We know that fortune effects are a thing, and we know that chaos magic is a thing. There's plenty of space in there to fit a character who's all about random tiny bits of good luck happening to their allies all the time.
It would be a pretty generic martial chassis, probably with something to encourage melee, possibly encourage dex/finesse. Charisma also feels appropriate. It would also be a potentially cool way to build the "mascot character" idea without the feelsbad. Like, they're literally a good luck charm, and you can tell, because they just let you reroll the critfail you were about to get on that saving throw.
So... you get a library of these little powers, and each of them does some nifty thing, probably either as a single action or as a reaction, and each one refreshes when you pull off some interesting other thing, and you can only hold a certain number of them charged at any one time.That sounds very much like an alchemist or spontaneous caster.
But I feel you. The system has a couple martials with daily prep "weird goodies" (Thaumaturge feats spring to mind...or maybe a Magus selecting support spells), but AFAIK no martial chassis with a library of on-the-fly weird goodies. E.g. You know these five runes. You can temporarily apply one of them to an object you're holding as an action. It triggers when X happens. It lasts 1 minute. You can apply runes Y times per day.
The way this system manages stuff like that, it would be easy to add as an archetype. That's more flexible than a class, too, as it means *any* martial could decide to go that route. Whereas if you made a class that does that as it's speciality, only that class could do it.
It's not at all the same as alchemists or spontaneous casters. Both of those effectively have a pool of daily supplies and a set of cantrip effects (though the alchemist cantrip effects don't kick in until level 7) This would be recharge effects. You wouldn't be able to hold nearly as many of them at a time, but they'd recharge throughout the combat. It's much less about planning and much more about reacting in the moment to whatever the situation is and whatever tricks you happen to have charged right then.
Part of the point here is that it's not "Y times per day". PF1 had lots of "Y times per day" stuff, and there are plenty of feats that offer the same in various ways in PF2. This is trying to get away from that.
The problem with archetypes is that they're limited in scope. If you can't afford to buy a reasonable amount of the effect with a few class feats, then you can't really fit it into an archetype. Class features can be a lot more robust, since they're built into the chassis. Now, a class is still going to *have* an archetype, and thereby let others get a taste of the magic, if they invest in it, but it's not going to be nearly as strong for them, because... well, archetypes are limited.
Archetypes also have to be balanced with everyone. If you have something that recharges on a crit, it has to be balanced even in the hands of a fighter. If you have something that recharges when you apply debilitations, it has to be balanced even in the hands of a bomber or a rogue. If you have something that recharges when you inflict bleed, it has to be balanced even in the hands of a swashbuckler... and so forth. Making something into an archetype really limits how much oomph you cna put into it.
In a similar vein, if you make it an archetype, you utterly destroy the "party mascot" thing, because they're guaranteed to have a chassis that is otherwise fully capable. Just in general, having a weird archetype only makes you a little weird. Like, we have weird archetypes. You can, right now, play a zombie who's carrying around a living curse that they inflict on others. You can play character who's made significant pacts with a demon, an outsider and a psychopomp all at the same time. (May all the gods have mercy on your thrice-bartered soul)... but this is all side stuff. It's interesting facts about your character, but it's never the most important thing about you. If the PFS group you just sat down with wants to know roughly what you can do in order to figure out general tactics, the fact that you have a fey trapped inside your soul isn't going to be the bit they really want to hear.
What's an example of an oddball class in PF1?
Since some of the oddest characters I played in PF1 were a Paladin and a Monk.
So, like Panache or Spellstrike or Devise a Strategem or Exploit Vulnerability. Those are charge effects and all but the last use an expend & recharge mechanic. But instead of just adding damage or helping with strikes, it'd give you a few different options on how to use the effect?
Close. In some ways it's similar to the panache/finisher mechanic, but there are improtant differences. You'd have a number of different recharge triggers, and each would recharge a different power, but you couldn't hold very many of them charged at any one time. Also, importantly, many of the charge effects (the stronger ones in particular) wouldn't be entirely under the control of the player. Like, the swashbuckler winds up trying to find ways to reliably get panache again and again, because it's possible to make panache gain pretty reliable. The idea of this class is that it's much more a case of reacting to circumstances. You can adopt strategies that make things like "achieve a critical success" and "succeed on a saving throw" more likely, but there's no way to make them certain.
The problem with recharge effects is they tend to lock a PC into a repetitive cycle. If the charge effect is powerful, then the tactical option of charge up; use charge; repeat often becomes the "optimal" strategy that the other party members rely on you doing. OTOH if it's not powerful, people will complain it's a 'trap' feature of the class. And while having a variety of very different effects is interesting in principle, a charging mechanic sort of requires turn-based encounter time, which will put a high value on effects that are valuable in turn-based encounters [cough combat cough]. It's hard to see how "my dodge reaction gives me acharge, which can now be used for either +1 attack, catfall, or making a diplomacy success into a critical success" would ever regularly use the last two.
So, first, yes, my idea was that this would be purely a combat thing. The class might well have other mechanics that would let them toss assistance to their allies in noncombat situations - possibly even a few ways to leverage tricks for that - but it's not the core image.
As far as repetitive cycle... quite the contrary. The whole point of the class is that you're constantly reacting to your tricks coming online and begging to be used, often recharging for things beyond your control. Some enemy crit-fails in an attack against you? Suddenly you have a trick power up, and it's a good one (being a rare and inconsistent trigger) which means that it may well be worth rearranging your turn for... if it even takes normal actions at all. If it's an ally-buffing reaction, then you're keeping your eyes open for where you can use it to best effect, and so even if your base turns wind up a bit repetitive, your overall engagement with the combat as a whole is pretty high.
What's an example of an oddball class in PF1?
Since some of the oddest characters I played in PF1 were a Paladin and a Monk.
Well, Mesmerist, apparently. I think a fair amount of it wound up coming in from the alternate class features... but those could to a lot more in PF1 than their equivalents have been able to do thus far in PF2.
Still really want a Harrower class. Basically the same concept as an Ancestors Oracle, your options determined by luck at the start of the turn and it's up to you to figure out how to get the most value out of them.
As far as repetitive cycle... quite the contrary. The whole point of the class is that you're constantly reacting to your tricks coming online and begging to be used, often recharging for things beyond your control.Ah. So wolf 1 crit failed their attack roll. Wolf 2 moved. Wolf 3 tried to flank. Since you had a 'crit fail' power and a 'move' power and a 'flank' power, you received three charges which can then be used in later rounds agaisnt different opponents for a variety of things? That seems less 'taking advantage of new circumstances' and more 'battery of combat moves.'
For a PC ability to react in fun ways to new circumstances, I'd just use feats. "Opportunistic leg sweep: if your opponent critically fails on an attack against you, on your next attack you gain a +2 circumstance bonus to trip." Or maybe like AoO: if your opponent critically fails on an attack against you, you may attempt to trip them as a reaction." Want more options? Make the feat broader: "Opportunistic brawler: if your opponent critically fails an attack against you, you gain a +2 circumstance bonus on your next strike to trip, disarm, or shove."
...except that it goes deeper than that? I mean, "wolf moved' and "wolf tried to flank" aren't going to make the cut anyway. Also, in most gases it's going to be more than just a +2. I don't personally see "+2" as much of a driver for "PC react in fun ways". Similarly, "trip as a reaction to being crit-missed" is... bland. There's no choice there. Someone crit-misses you, so you trip them Why wouldn't you?
The idea here is that you're getting your little powers from things that you can't guarantee, and may have difficulty even encouraging too much. They're not going to be super-common, but you have enough of these little powers that you'll probably get a decent trickle of them coming in over time - you just wont' know which one. These powers generally take one of two forms:
- Reactions that you can use (on *other* triggers) that make your party members get to be awesome.
- single-action actions that do some cool, useful thing, and don't increase your MAP. Maybe a teleport, maybe a vs-save power, maybe a significant but short-term buff you can hand out.
So either you're suddenly keeping your eyes open for an opportunity to use that reaction power you just got, or you're reshuffling your plans for the round to include this action that you suddenly have available... and you're always watching for things that recharge your powers. Regardless of what's going on, it's keeping you engaged and in-the-moment. Having tricks come online isn't just about letting you do stuff right then, or giving you a brief buff, it's about changing what it is that you're paying attention to from round to round.
Still really want a Harrower class. Basically the same concept as an Ancestors Oracle, your options determined by luck at the start of the turn and it's up to you to figure out how to get the most value out of them.
Have you seen the Stolen Fate Players Guide? It has a Harrower Archetype and a Harrow Bloodline for Sorcerers, and they both use the Harrow Cards (or dice if you do not have the cards) as both flavor and mechanical elements.
Still really want a Harrower class. Basically the same concept as an Ancestors Oracle, your options determined by luck at the start of the turn and it's up to you to figure out how to get the most value out of them.Have you seen the Stolen Fate Players Guide? It has a Harrower Archetype and a Harrow Bloodline for Sorcerers, and they both use the Harrow Cards (or dice if you do not have the cards) as both flavor and mechanical elements.
Yeesh, with some bonkers focus spells which probably needed another editing pass. Invoke the Harrow isn't clear about whether you need to select a target before you draw the card, and Rewrite Possibilities feels like it was missing a "the spell ends after you use the reaction" line. As is it feels horrendously powerful.
Option: Thaumaturge and Inventor also fit thematically. Create some feats that allow them to jury-rig minor talismans or gadgets.It's much less about planning and much more about reacting in the moment to whatever the situation is and whatever tricks you happen to have charged right then...
...The problem with archetypes is that they're limited in scope. If you can't afford to buy a reasonable amount of the effect with a few class feats, then you can't really fit it...
Gadget Specialist/Ubiquitous Gadgets and Contingency Gadgets seem to fill that idea for an inventor with gadgets. An inventor, because of the automatic increases to Crafting proficiency, might also find some benefit in leaning into Alchemist Dedication, Quick Alchemy, and possibly Expert Alchemy and Master Alchemy for more "on the fly" tricks (not as "powerful" as many of the inventor class options, but still probably useful).
I play oddball characters in PF2. A goblin cleric of “the darkness” who plays largely like a rogue and steals people’s dark vision. A gnome who calls himself a sorcerer, looks like a wizard, but is a monk with a thaumaturge dedication and has a lot of unexpected options up his sleeves. A Gnoll illusionist with the dandy dedication (in a free archetype game). An elven “Archeologist” who is actually a mobile, glass cannon maul fighter. An Mbe’ke Dwarven fire Oracle who is a disciple of the dragon.
It is so liberating not having all the “oddball” stuff tied to class archetypes that require 3+ multiclass levels tied to just grabbing front loaded class options to make really unique and interesting PF2 characters.
Still really want a Harrower class. Basically the same concept as an Ancestors Oracle, your options determined by luck at the start of the turn and it's up to you to figure out how to get the most value out of them.Have you seen the Stolen Fate Players Guide? It has a Harrower Archetype and a Harrow Bloodline for Sorcerers, and they both use the Harrow Cards (or dice if you do not have the cards) as both flavor and mechanical elements.
I had not seen this, no... The archetype seems pretty terrible? You get your active harrow at the start of the day and lose it for using any of the archetype's mechanics so you're spending your archetype for a single effect per day. The bloodline is closer, though as Morgan said it has some editing issues (my ruling/hope would be that you choose targets after drawing on Invoke the Harrow and that you lose the benefits of Rewrite Possibility after using the reaction).
I had an idea a while back for an expansion of the Vampire archetype sorta inspired by Nagoriyuki's blood mechanic. You get abilities that you can only use while "sated", an on/off status that's recharged by successfully using the Drink Blood action.
There's a risk in making a class that is too niche.
The more specific the angle on some class is, the more specific the type of campaign it can be viable is becomes.
Classes like the Investigator already show this problem.
I think they're better off adding in more special backgrounds, devotion archetypes, and feats than adding in whole classes. In fact I often see people write that some of the niche classes we do have work better when used as multiclass archetypes added onto a more general-natured class.
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I can't imagine looking at the Psychic and Thaumaturge as the most recent PF2 classes, with the Kineticist coming soon, and thinking "they're really sticking to safe, boring class design."
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I'd say the Psychic and Thaumaturge are a bit of a mixed back.
Conceptually they're very out there, but they play it a little bit safe when it comes to their core mechanics.
Like before the class came out a lot of people were talking about ways to design classes that engage with combat differently, that focus on support abilities or have unique debuffs or effects...
But the Thaumaturge is pretty much still just a martial, you roll your check to apply your damage bonus and you get a handful of extra benefits from your implements, most of which aren't really treading new territory (the mirror is probably the most out there implement, but things like weapon and the passive implements are pretty vanilla).
The kineticist seems pretty different, but a lot of it is going to come down to how it works in practice, we'll have to see.
I had not seen this, no... The archetype seems pretty terrible? You get your active harrow at the start of the day and lose it for using any of the archetype's mechanics so you're spending your archetype for a single effect per day. The bloodline is closer, though as Morgan said it has some editing issues (my ruling/hope would be that you choose targets after drawing on Invoke the Harrow and that you lose the benefits of Rewrite Possibility after using the reaction).Still really want a Harrower class. Basically the same concept as an Ancestors Oracle, your options determined by luck at the start of the turn and it's up to you to figure out how to get the most value out of them.Have you seen the Stolen Fate Players Guide? It has a Harrower Archetype and a Harrow Bloodline for Sorcerers, and they both use the Harrow Cards (or dice if you do not have the cards) as both flavor and mechanical elements.
One of the level four feats in the Archtype, Restore Omen, lets you regain your active harrow with a 10 minute rest. You meditate, draw a new card, and get your active harrow back.
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I can't imagine looking at the Psychic and Thaumaturge as the most recent PF2 classes, with the Kineticist coming soon, and thinking "they're really sticking to safe, boring class design."
Not being safe or boring doesn’t immediately equate to odd
I really hope we get an announcement soon about the possibility of the shaman class or spiritualist class that has been teased about some on these boards. I think that has the potential to really add in some new interesting mechanics.
I do think "oddball" is a little misleading for this conversation because it seems to speak to narrative so much more than mechanics, but even classes with new and exciting mechanics might not really fit, or be best labeled as "oddball" classes.
I can't imagine looking at the Psychic and Thaumaturge as the most recent PF2 classes, with the Kineticist coming soon, and thinking "they're really sticking to safe, boring class design."Not being safe or boring doesn’t immediately equate to odd
I'll bite - what does it mean, then?
The Thaumaturge is stapling arbitrary Weaknesses to enemies and substituting Charisma for a bunch of Lore stuff, while the 9 Implements offer some of the most modular class design in the game as it stands. The Psychic has things like a subclass that ping-pongs between Cold and Fire, and has a completely novel design space around Amping cantrips. The Kineticist isn't shaped like any other class in the game.
What would be odd, if not those?
I really hope we get an announcement soon about the possibility of the shaman class or spiritualist class that has been teased about some on these boards. I think that has the potential to really add in some new interesting mechanics.
Michael Sayre's thoughts on a Shaman who trades away daily spell slots for 'favors' from spirits are so exciting to me.
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The Thaumaturge is stapling arbitrary Weaknesses to enemies and substituting Charisma for a bunch of Lore stuff, while the 9 Implements offer some of the most modular class design in the game as it stands.
It sounds fancy like that.
But it's also true to say that the Thaumaturge spends an action to get a damage bonus like half the martials in the game and a lot of those implements do wild and unique things like "+1 to diplomacy checks" or "aoo against one target"
The class doesn't have a bevy of unique combat options related to esoterica. It doesn't have special abilities to manipulate the properties of its creatures or apply novel debuffs. It largely engages in combat the same way as every other martial. These are things people talked about and hoped for before and during the playtest, but they're not actually part of the class' identity.
There are lots of odd ideas in the Thaumaturge, but the class plays it fairly safe in terms of how it's executed, and it's closer to Charisma Ranger than anything entirely new. Even its signature "combine knowledge skills behind a single stat" thing is a ranger feat, they just get it nine levels earlier (which is cool for the thaumaturge but feels pretty bad if you're a ranger).
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I can't imagine looking at the Psychic and Thaumaturge as the most recent PF2 classes, with the Kineticist coming soon, and thinking "they're really sticking to safe, boring class design."Not being safe or boring doesn’t immediately equate to oddI'll bite - what does it mean, then?
The Thaumaturge is stapling arbitrary Weaknesses to enemies and substituting Charisma for a bunch of Lore stuff, while the 9 Implements offer some of the most modular class design in the game as it stands.
That’s an elaborate way of saying spends an action to gain a damage bonus and some other small but helpful bonuses to checks.
The oddest thing about the class to me is the implements it has to wonder round with drawing power from, but due to the clunky rules around empty hands you’re sort of pigeon holed into working a certain way.
The Psychic has things like a subclass that ping-pongs between Cold and Fire, and has a completely novel design space around Amping cantrips. The Kineticist isn't shaped like any other class in the game.What would be odd, if not those?
Caster that Amps cantrips is different but I wouldn’t say it was odd at all, seems like a reasonably logical place to go design wise.
To me oddness isn’t about having a slightly jaunty mechanic/action economy
It’s about the flavour being slightly left of field and the mechanics enabling that. The implements sort of go in that direction but then the mechanics don't co-operate.
It’s like a sanitised toned down version of the occultist from pf1, going round with tons of weird magical items all with their own weird powers attached. Like a novelty magical Christmas tree.
Having a magical talking sword (or whatever) as a class feature or communing with ghosts and spirits of the wild to fight for you or whatever else.
Not just, has a magic item, they have to have in their hand. That they use an action to gain a bonus from.
What is "oddball" is also subjective and can be dependent on how far your play environment allows you to stray for lore strictly as written.
I know media was also mentioned in the other thread and we all have VASTLY different reading/movie experiences, etc. For example, I tend to draw inspiration/steal from works that undermine standard fantasy tropes: Book of the New Sun, Viriconium, Gormenghast, Perdido Street Station… some of Malazan. (For example my inventor — a brain in a jar that was implanted into the ancient core of a dead ancient automaton — was inspired by Tomb the Iron Dwarf from The Pastel City).
There are some cool ideas here. The shaman trading spell slots for favors is exactly the kind of thing I would love to see more of. I would also love to see possession/object possession focus, intelligent item-based classes/archetypes, incapacitation specialization, and weird situational spells like Enter Image brought back.
With PF's Common/Uncommon/Rare system GMs can control the vibe of their table easily, and the type of game they want to run. if anything this positions PF2 to give us even more weird options while providing a level of baked-in protection for tables who prefer more traditional fantasy.
I guess I need some examples. "Needs more than that" but creates a "regular trickle of charges" in a standard combat - I don't know what fits that description. Similarly with "+2 isn't much of a driver" but you call them "little powers." What fits the "little, but gives more of an incentive than getting +2 on a roll" description? +2 is a pretty big incentive to do something, the way PF2e works.
Do you have some concrete examples of what sort of trigger or charge/recharge powers you want to add?
So, first, I want to make clear that I don't have a super-clear structure for this. It's more a feel that I'm chasing, rather than anything that's been particularly well-balanced. Still, the kind if thing I'm talking about here....
Recharge: Hit an enemy with an attack that suffers from two layers of MAP.
power (reaction): triggers on an ally within 30' making an attack under MAP. Reduces the penalty by one layer (ie, no penalty if the second attack, half-penalty if the third)
Recharge: Provoke an opportunity attack that misses
Power: The next time you make a tumble through check against an enemy, that result is also applied directly as a trip attempt against that enemy. Does not count as an attack or increase MAP.
Recharge: Critically succeed on a skill check
Power (reaction): Triggers on an enemy within 30 feet failing on an attack roll against an ally. Turn that failure into a critical failure
Recharge: Critically succeed on a saving throw
Power (reaction): Triggers on an enemy within 30 feet failing a saving throw against an ally's effect. That failure is now a critical failure.
/***********/
Again, I don't claim that this stuff is balanced, but it's more the feel of the thing. The recharge effects are individually unlikely. In those cases where they can be usefully fished for, it's not necessarily great to do so. The resulting powers are strong, but very specific, and involve either making tactical choices that you wouldn't otherwise be making or watching for specific things to react to in the battle.
Additionally, and in particular, they very much are things that lend themselves to party synergy. It's just that they're generally not predictable things.
In general, especially at lower levels, you should not expect to regain a charge every turn, and you certainly should not expect to be able to have any particular charge on any given turn. For many of the more powerful effects, you shouldn't necessarily expect to be able to spend a charge the turn you get it every time, either.
Still, the kind if thing I'm talking about here....Thanks for the examples. One mechanics suggestion and one fluff suggestion as you move forward thinking about your oddball class.
Mechanics: I'd say all charges expire at the end of the scene. Otherwise it could get both mechanically and story-wise ridiculous, saving things up until the boss fight a session or two later. And it makes little sense sense that because two hours ago the Ogre took a swipe at Bob and missed, it's now easier for you to trip this Minotaur. There are ways to justify a long "held charge" sort of mechanic (Curse maelstrom, I'm looking at you), but in general, a "reactive" power should be something the character can decide to use immediately in response to the stimuli, or it goes away pretty quickly.
Oh, absolutely. It had been my intention that, by default, any time you roll initiative, you have no charges. That's the sort of thing that might get frobbed by the same sort of resource-frobbing feats that other classes get (maybe) but not by anything else.
On fluff: there's no real theme here. No "he summons spirits and uses them to..." or "is sooo good at acrobatics she can pull off..." Maybe that's part of what you're chasing, but it may be much easier to come up with a set of mechanical abilities if you had a story framework to derive them from. Summons spirits? Okay, that gets my imagination going on some mechanics ideas. Acrobatic genius? That gets my imagination running towards a *completely different* set of powers. The theme gives life and meaning to the powers. It may inspire you to new mechanics. So maybe work on class theme, and let the new mechanics flow organically from there? Just an idea. Otherwise it's something of a "I wanted to play a PC who could do these unrelated cool things, so I threw them all onto a class chassis so I could get them all."
So the theme that I'd tossed out before was one where the character is really plugged into fate and fortune and luck and chaos magic in a big way. They take particular risks or have unlikely positive things happen, and they get to twist the energies that that produces into fortune effects and unlikely events, with the whole acrobatics thing as something secondary. The imagery is things like the jester dancing through a crowd of mooks while they stumble about and knock each other out by mistake, or the good-luck-charm character who's constantly squawking and trying to not die, while the other characters look Even Better by comparison.
So kind of almost like a spell-caster edition of the swashbuckler? Would it make sense to try to build feats a la Kineticist playtest and work on the feel from that mechanical angle? I think you mentioned before you didn't envision this as a wave-caster.
I don't envision this as any sort of caster at all. No spells. It's a little like a kineticist, in the whole "does magic things that aren't spells" way. It's a little bit like a swashbuckler in that at least some of them do a bunch of dancing around and acrobatics... but while the swashbuckler's Big Thing is always Hitting People Really Hard, this characters Big Thing is always stuff that just... happens around them. Their enemies tend to have moments of horrible luck and painful pratfalls. Their allies tend to have improbably many moments where everything just goes right. If you just watch them, though... they don't ever seem to be doing anything that's all that impressive.
I suppose that It might make sense to build your trick pool out of feats like the Kineticist does. That could fit.
I quite like the concept of a luck based character.
I’d be interested in what their equivalent of bloodlines would be?
I’ve also always thought a clown class could be a funny road to go down, with diciplins like, the mime, animal master, slap stick, and drudge style ideas.
Sort of like a martial but in a much more unconventional way.
Yeah I think they’d probably exist in a similar design space to the rogue, as a skill class with unconventional melee abilities, slapstick guy might be a manoeuvre specialist, a drudge would be a demoralising debuffer, the Mime would have battle field control. Imagine miming a wall only for your foes to physically run into one.
Acrobatics, stealth, thievery and Performance would all be logical skills for them.
Ok. In some ways this sounds like an ancestry (a la a Kender) but let's stick with your intention. I would set aside the feats/class features for a moment and consider practicalities:
perception - starts trained or expert? how perceptive are they (this informs how it should progress too)
attack proficiencies - more like a wizard, more like an alchemist, or more like a rogue?
- related, what kinds of weapons--sounds like a focus on agile and/or finesse possiblydefense proficiencies - what's the heaviest armor they start trained with/what kind of armor are they wearing in your mind's eye?
saves- sounds like reflex primary, will secondary (but could swap these two) and fortitude tertiary--is this accurate?
beyond that - how skillful to envision them. are they all universally trained in a particular skill, like acrobatics?
re: central class feature -- basically with recharging abilities there's pretty much two ways to go:
1) something like focus points (but not this because you want to avoid spells or presumably spell-like abilities)
2) something like panache where you have to do something to get your opponent to do something to generate a reward (almost like the South Park underwear gnomes' "steal undies--something--profit!")
-- If number 2, this is where you need to brainstorm the most. From there it should be relatively easy to develop class features focused on it and feats that interact with it.
All of this stuff is really premature. I'm not trying to flog this one class. I'm trying to encourage people to com up with lots of oddball class ideas. I'd see him as mostly having an unadorned basic martial chassis, and I don't think that the conversation benefits from taking it any more detail than that. Mostly I was presenting this as "here's this kind of cool idea I came up with that might do some interesting stuff". If it's inspiring, great. If not, not that big a deal. Chassis tweaks are really the sort of thing you want to do int eh balance stage, and I don't intend to get to the balance stage with this one.
I quite like the concept of a luck based character.
I’d be interested in what their equivalent of bloodlines would be?
Just building off the various fortune effects already in game, there’s 3 ways you can go: choosing the specific luck benefit, choosing what it applies to, or choosing between “Misfortune” and “Fortune”.
Specific benefit: Roll twice and take better (or worse), Roll again and take the new roll, forgoe rolling entirely and take a predetermined roll, or a numerical bonus/penalty to a roll (either a static number or an additional d4 or d6)
Type: Save, attack, damage, skill, etc. The starfinder precog has some pretty good ideas along these lines.
Fortune/Misfortune: If the class is built around fortune or misfortune effects, then an obvious basic class ability is being able to apply a second fortune or misfortune effect to a single roll, and you’d choose at level 1 which of these you’d get. This feels more like a kineticist gate than a full subclass though. Otoh, flavor this as “Curse”, “Blessing”, and “Prophecy”, with each giving a different permanent fortune or misfortune effect that applies to you, and I could see possibilities here.
For all three, the subclass would give you one specific effect you can do, probably as a reaction. It would then also give you a bonus skill or spell (if a spell caster), as normal for subclasses.
As you might guess, I’ve put some thought into this. I got pretty excited by the curse eater archetype (I think that’s what it was called) in Dark Archives, because I thought something like that could be filled out into a full class. Not sure exactly how I’d frame it out, but its an interesting idea at least.
So... another oddball class idea. It's one that I've tossed around a while, but I'm realizing that the fiction of the class has some fundamental structural issues, and I'm hoping that someone can help me here.
The basic idea crunchwise is that you start with Thaumaturge-style implements, except that they're a bit more complicated and interesting, and they maybe each come with a manageable downside or two, and they're also more useful/powerful overall but it's okay from a balance standpoint because they ate the rest of the class. Runs everything on class DC and *maybe* unarmed attack. Class DC... probably works off of Con?
This class thinks of Thaumaturge as its melee hybrid in teh same way that Magus is Wizard's melee hybrid.
So, that works for crunch. It's interesting, because the Implement-equivalents are such a big deal that picking a different set of implements can completely change how your character plays tactically and what they bring to the party. That's a bit tricky ont eh balance side of things, but given Kineticist as a point of comparison, I suspect they could pull it off, and if they're not there quite yet, I'm pretty sure they can get there once they've done another class or two in that general direction.
The tricky part is the fiction-work. In particular, my idea on the fiction had been that this was a character who was host to a number of strange symbiotes - creatures who hid in their shadow or lived in their soul or inhabited their bloodstream or a swarm that nested in little tunnels in their body or whatever. "Magical being who gives me useful powers in exchange for symbiotic support" is a pretty common trope, and the idea would be that this class would be for someone who had a lot of them.
The problem then is... how to justify it? Like, you have a friendly aberration that's replaced your left hand and tries to help you out. Okay. Cool. So how does this make you any more likely to sprout some other symbiote later on? I could suppose a group of different otherworldly symbiotic types that you could reach out to with ritual magics and pick and choose from, and that could work, but it starts making the whole thing feel very niche, especially since it's not an area that's been explored in Golarion before, and thus not something that's been a Big Deal before this.
I suppose it might work if some existing group of entities started going all-in on the whole "be a symbiote" idea, but... who would?
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I quite like the concept of a luck based character.
I’d be interested in what their equivalent of bloodlines would be?
Just building off the various fortune effects already in game, there’s 3 ways you can go: choosing the specific luck benefit, choosing what it applies to, or choosing between “Misfortune” and “Fortune”.
Specific benefit: Roll twice and take better (or worse), Roll again and take the new roll, forgoe rolling entirely and take a predetermined roll, or a numerical bonus/penalty to a roll (either a static number or an additional d4 or d6)
Type: Save, attack, damage, skill, etc. The starfinder precog has some pretty good ideas along these lines.
Fortune/Misfortune: If the class is built around fortune or misfortune effects, then an obvious basic class ability is being able to apply a second fortune or misfortune effect to a single roll, and you’d choose at level 1 which of these you’d get. This feels more like a kineticist gate than a full subclass though. Otoh, flavor this as “Curse”, “Blessing”, and “Prophecy”, with each giving a different permanent fortune or misfortune effect that applies to you, and I could see possibilities here.
For all three, the subclass would give you one specific effect you can do, probably as a reaction. It would then also give you a bonus skill or spell (if a spell caster), as normal for subclasses.
As you might guess, I’ve put some thought into this. I got pretty excited by the curse eater archetype (I think that’s what it was called) in Dark Archives, because I thought something like that could be filled out into a full class. Not sure exactly how I’d frame it out, but its an interesting idea at least.
I think there are a significant range of options here. Starting from being able to reroll a dice or two, maybe redirect an enemy attack, through to something like Marvels's Domino: being able to substitute her luck skill or luck DC for any skill or DC in the game, then maybe all at once, then onto doing something that is just impossible (like drive a truck while not being at the controls) only by luck. That is obviously a super hero genre, but I see little problem in reskinning it into a fantasy genre, eg Ta'veren.
I think there are a significant range of options here. Starting from being able to reroll a dice or two, maybe redirect an enemy attack, through to something like Marvels's Domino: being able to substitute her luck skill or luck DC for any skill or DC in the game, then maybe all at once, then onto doing something that is just impossible (like drive a truck while not being at the controls) only by luck. That is obviously a super hero genre, but I see little problem in reskinning it into a fantasy genre, eg Ta'veren.
Yes exactly. I was thinking about being able to sidestep an aoe effect or strike just last night.
The current flavor I'm hanging on this idea is some kind of Fortune Teller. Again, I keep returning to the PreCog and how each character had some kind of relationship to time itself and that manifested in which roll their paradox applied to first. I think a fortune teller that had a single big prophetic Vision that drove and empowered them would be interesting. That prophecies are now broken could be an explanation of how you are now able to use it to manipulate the fate of yourself and others.
I want to say prophet might be a good class name, but Augur or Foreteller might also work.
Give it prepared occult bound casting (for flavor of having magic but not being it's primary ability), add in some feats that are flavored as you manipulating luck/fate (like the redirect an enemy attack you mentioned), some more that related to specific divination practices like harrow reading or oneiromancy, and I think you'd wind up with a class that dips heavily into Fortune/Misfortune effects while also expanding on both Occult casting and "Lost Omens".
Aren't you just describing the Occultist? Because it sounds like you are just describing the occultist.
No. I'm really not.
- For crunch, the Occultist is a 2/3rds caster with some side abilities, and much of their side abilities are on a daily refresh as well. The thing I'm describing does not cast spells. Their abilities are all passive or at-will. I suppose that shifting some of them to encounter powers and/or refresh powers might make sense, but they really don't work right as a spellcaster.
- For flavor, the occultist is someone who has thaumaturge-style implements that they channel magic through. They're very much an int class - it's all about knowing how certain kinds of obscure magic work and how to leverage them to your advantage. The Host is someone who has a number of inherently magical critters of various sorts that grant them various direct benefits and/or are willing to do useful things on their behalf. For the Host, it's all about getting by with a little help from your friends. The Host is probably a Con class (because a better constitution leaves them more able to support their little friends).
If you really wanted to, you could take the Occultist flavor, and attach it to a mechanic that was broadly similar to what you'd be getting out of the Host, and have ti be vaguely justifiable, but that's not at all the same thing as "just describing the occultist". Also, they already did that, and they called it the Thaumaturge. Part of what the Host is trying to do is carve out a space for itself in both flavor and crunch that's far enough away from the Theumaturge to be its own thing.
A generic grafter class could be a thing. IMO, a new alchemist sub-class might be appropriate or since something thaumaturgist is envisioned--grafts could just be an additional implement.
With regards to weirdness, generally it's going to easier to make archetypes or new sub-classes because much of the heavy lifting has been completed. As an alternative delivery device for weirdness, ancestry is also easily yoked. Just look at Battlezoo's output. If you're looking for weird they deliver in spades.
I can see the generic grafter thing as an idea, but it looks like the "grafts" niche is being filled by prosthetics in this version, and I kind of don't want to trample that.
As far as archetypes and subclasses... well, of course it's easier. Archetypes and sub-classes are inherently easier to build than classes, pretty much regardless. That said, classes allow for a degree of all-the-way-down structural weirdness that the other stuff just doesn't. getting weird from a subclass or an ancestry or an archetype means that you've got a layer of weird, but it's not fundamental. A Skeleton Monk Curse Maelstrom is pretty weird, and maybe has some fun visuals, but at the end of the day they still mostly play like a monk.
I do find some of what Battlezoo's putting out intriguing, it's true, and I intend to look into it at some point once funding permits, but for the forseeable future I expect to be limited to PFS for game availability reasons so it's not particularly pertinent to my own experience.