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The idea was to make a class that is really all about sustaining hexes over the course of the day, re-usable powers that feel as much like giving people the cold shoulder or a scary look as they feel like magic to begin with.
Then getting more overtly powerful as you level up. Hopefully it feels balanced and fulfils the fantasy people had put in place for the witch.
Hexes, Major Hexes and grand hexes might seem OP but remember, the witch is only working with 2 spell slots at each level. They're paying for their power.
Homebrew Witch
Perception:
Expert in Perception
Saves:
Reflex: Trained
Will: Expert
Fortitude: Trained
Skills:
Trained in Occult
Trained in a number of additional skills qual to 2 plus your intelligence modifier
Defences:
Untrained in all Armor
Trained in unarmoured defence
Spells:
Trained in Occult Spell Attacks
Trained in Arcane Spell DCs
Lv1 feature: Patron & Familiar & Spell casting – Familiar works the same as before. Spells and patron are addressed further down.
Lv3 Chant – Instead of the sustain a spell action a witch may take a chant action. The chant action allows the witch to sustain one spell with the sustain duration that you have in effect. In addition, a witch may sustain one hex with the sustain duration at the same time. The duration continues until the end of your next turn as normal. A which can only cast cantrips and hexes whilst chanting.
You may expend a focus point to allow you to sustain a spell until the end of the next turn without using the chant action. You may pick up the chant action again in the following turn.
Lv5 Hag’s resilience (Expert fortitude)
Lv7 Expert Spellcaster
Lv9: Mysterious frame (Expert Reflexes)
Lv10: Cackle – The witches chant action may now be used to sustain a spell at the same time as they sustain a hex or major hex. You may also sustain a hex and a major hex at the same time in place of a sustained spell. You may not sustain two major hexes. You can expend a focus point to extend this as with the chant action.
Lv11: Wise old eyes (Master perception)
Lv11: Weapon Expertise
Lv13: Defensive Robes & Weapon Specialization
Lv15: Master Spellcaster
Lv17: Stubborn Mind (Master Will)
Lv19: Supreme Witch, Grand hex & Legendary Spellcasting
Spell slots/Spell prep: Witches learn and prepare spells exactly as they do in the current rules, however they only get 4 cantrips and they only have 2 spell slots per spell level, not three. They never get 10th level spells.
Patrons:
You patron will grant you one hex of your choice at level 1 from the list of hexes available to that patron. At level 8 you will gain one of the Major hexes available to your patron, of your choice. At level 19 you will gain your grand hex and the associated supreme status.
When you gain a new spell level you will also gain a patron spell, your familiar automatically knows these patron spells. You may also cast these patron spells once per day without expending a spell slot, but only at their original level.
Your patron also grants a boon, an extra feature or skill granted to you at first level.
Maiden: You patron connects you to the beauty and enchanting power of youth, destiny lays at your feet, your path is yet to be written and you have more control over it than most.
Patron Spells:
1) Charm
2) Lucky Number
3) threefold aspect
4) Veil
5) Tongues
6) Mislead
7) True Target
8) Uncontrollable Dance
9) Foresight
Boon: Trained in Society
Hex: Misfortune/Fortune/Enchanting Force/Chilling Sweep
Major Hex: Drawing Darkness/Royal Aspect
Supreme status: Mistress of Fate
Grand Hex: Control Fate
Mother: Your patron connects you to the life-giving power of the mother. You nurture, heal, comfort, and protect. Your power is a warm hug and a hard shield against the world.
Patron Spells:
1) Heal
2) Create Food
3) Threefold aspect
4) Soothing spring
5) Breath of life
6) Raise Dead
7) Regenerate
8) Moment of renewal
9) Overwhelming presence
Boon: Trained in medicine
Hex: Fortune/Warming Embrace/Earthen Clutch/Shielding Shroud
Major Hex: Earthen ally/Boundless Hope
Supreme Status: Life bringer
Grand Hex: Eruption of life
Crone: Your patron connects you to the wisdom of the crone. You’re familiar with the facts of life and with them death. You know what it is to endure time and you’re ready to use it as a weapon.
Patron Spells:
1) Fear
2) Silence
3) Threefold Aspect
4) Seal Fate
5) Death Ward
6) Necrotize
7) Finger of Death
8) Canticle of Everlasting Grief
9) Wail of the Banshee
Boon: Master in Perception, when you would increase to master, instead increase to legendary.
Hex: Evil Eye/Misfortune/Old Rot/Chilling Sweep
Major Hex: Royal Aspect/Withering Presence
Supreme Status: Friend of Death
Grand Hex: Quintessence stream.
Night: You patron connects you with the night. You don’t fear the darkness or the creatures that reside within it, you rule them. You wrap yourself up in the night and draw enemies into your clutches, protecting yourself and your allies.
Patron Spells:
1) Bane
2) Darkness
3) Chilling Darkness
4) Dimension Door
5) Moon frenzy
6) Blanket of stars
7) Eclipse burst
8) Polar Ray
9) Storm of Vengeance
Boon: Darkvision
Hex: Evil Eye/Enchanting Force/Chilling Sweep/Shielding shroud
Major Hex: Death Stare/Drawing Darkness
Supreme Status: Lady in shadow
Grand Hex: World in darkness
Swamp: You control the very ground beneath your feet, your enemies, stumble, struggle and fall around you.
Patron Spells:
1) Mud Pit
2) Water Walk
3) Earthbind
4) Stoneskin
5) Transmute rock and mud
6) Flesh to stone
7) Corrosive body
8) Horrid Wilting
9) Shapechange
Boon: Trained in survival
Hex: Earthen Clutch/Fortune/Warming Embrace/Old Rot
Major Hex: Earthen ally/Withering Presence
Supreme Status: Queen of the land
Grand Hex: Nature rage
Homebrew Class Feats:
If I’ve put > > > between feats, one leads to the other as a pre-req
Endless hair > Tangling Hair > Hair Trap/Crushing Hair
Endless hair (LV1): You may use the Endless hair action, your hair gains a reach of upto 30ft and may be used to deliver touch spells.
Tangling hair (Prerequisite: Endless hair) (LV4): You may grant the trip or grapple property to your hair once its grown with the endless hair action. You use your spell casting proficiency modifier for the sake of performing this manoeuvre. You may take this more than once.
Hair Trap (Prerequisite: Endless hair & tangling hair granting trip) (LV8): Once you’ve used the grow your hair action your hair counts as threatening for the sake of attacks of opportunity with a reach of 30ft. A 30ft radius around you counts as difficult terrain, for creatures you view as hostile.
Crushing Hair (Prerequisite: Endless hair & tangling hair granting Grapple)(LV8): Once you’ve grappled an opponent with the tangling hair action you may use the crush action. Dealing 1D6 x half your character level + your intelligence modifier, bludgeoning damage.
Extra Hex > Patron Wanderer
Extra Hex (LV1): You learn another hex from your patrons list of potential hexes. You may take this feat twice.
Patron Wanderer (LV10): You may learn one major hex not usually permitted by you Patron. You also gain 1 extra focus point to be added to your focus pool (can’t exceed 3)
Coven Witch (LV6) (Prerequisite: Maiden, Mother or Crone Patron) – When you prepare your spells in the morning you may invite a number of allies upto your intelligence modifier to commune along with you. For doing so, the first time you would expend a focus point during the next day, a focus point is not expended. Your allies all gain access to the casting of one Cantrip you know, using your spell casting proficiency for the sake of DCs and attack rolls.
World Witch (LV6) (Prerequisite: Night or Swamp Patron) - When you prepare your spells in the morning you may take your time to commune not only with your familiar with the world at large. For doing so, the first time you would expend a focus point during the next day, a focus point is not expended. In addition, the first time you roll a natural 1 for a skill, save or spell attack roll, you may reroll, you must take the second result.
Scarred Familiar (LV10) – Your familiar gains a scar, that carries the weight of your hexes. You may treat your familiar as the target of a Hex, which the familiar may then reflect towards any target within 30ft of it.
Unsettling Whispers > Horrifying Cackle
Unsettling whisperes (Lv4): Creatures within 15ft of you gain a -1-circumstance bonus to hit you with attack roles if you performed the chant action on your last turn.
Horrifying Cackle (Prerequisite) (Lv12): After you perform the chant action creatures within 30ft of you must make a will save against your spell DC, on a critical failed save they’re frightened 2 until the end of your next turn. On a fail they’re frightened 1 until the end of your next turn. On a success nothing. On a critical success they’re immune to the effects of horrifying cackle until you refocus. You also gain an extra focus point (can’t exceed 3)
Master of hexes (LV18): You gain 1 extra focus point to your focus pool (can’t exceed
3) and regain 2 when you refocus.
Witch Queen (LV20): You may cast your grand hex one additional time per day.
Generic Caster feats witches can take under class feats:
Cantrip Expansion
Steady Spell Casting
Soulsight
Effortless Concentration
Counterspell
Conceal Spell
Enhanced Familiar
Reflect Spell
Hexes:
Hexes function like cantrips only unique to a witch and they may only be acquired through your patron and the extra hex feat. They all have a range of 30ft and may all be sustained for upto a minute.
Hex list:
Evil Eye (2 actions) - Your fix your eye on the target, imposing a malevolent hex. The target becomes frightened based on the results of its Will save. This condition value can't be reduced below 1 while the hex is active and you can see the target.
Success The target is unaffected.
Failure The target is frightened 1.
Critical Failure The target is frightened 2.
Fortune (2 actions) – You reach into the fabric of reality and tweak things in your targets favour. The target of this hex gains a +2 circumstance bonus to attack rolls and AC.
You may sustain this hex.
Reaction: As a reaction when the target of this hex would fail a save or be hit with an attack you may change the result of the roll to be one more effective. A failed save becomes a successful save, a critical hit against the target becomes a hit. You may not make things critically fail or critically succeed with this reaction.
Misfortune (2 Actions)– You reach into the fabric of reality and push misfortune towards your foe. (Will save)
Critical success: Nothing
Success: The target is clumsy 1 until the end of your next turn.
Failure: The target is clumsy 2 until the end of your next turn
Critical Failure: The target is clumsy 2 until the end of your next turn and it loses one action point on its next turn
Reaction: As a reaction when the target of this hex would roll a save or be targeted with an attack you may change the result of the roll to be one grade worse for the target. A save becomes a fail, a miss against the targets AC becomes a hit. You may not make things critically fail or critically succeed with this reaction.
Chilling sweep (Reflex) (2 actions) – You brush the target aside with a chilling blow of disdain. You deal cold damage equal to 1d4 plus your spellcasting ability modifier.
Sustain: On a failed save frost encases the target and you may sustain it on subsequent turns to decrease its movement speed by 5ft. You may not target a creature with chilling sweep that you’re sustaining frost against.
Heightened (+1) The damage increases by 1d4.
Earthen Clutch (Reflex) (2 actions) – The ground beneath the target reaches up grabbing hold of the target, crushing and pulling it down. You deal bludgeoning damage equal to 1d4 plus your spellcasting ability modifier and creating difficult terrain beneath the targets feat.
Sustain: On a failed save the earth takes hold of the target, until you stop sustaining the target counts as always starting, and ending its movement in difficult terrain.
Heightened (+1) The damage increases by 1d4.
Warming embrace (2 actions) – You extend warming power towards your target encircling them in healing energy. You target heals for 1d4 plus your spell casting ability modifier.
You must refocus before you can target the same creature with warming embrace a second time.
Sustain – On subsequent turns you may sustain the hex to heal the target by your spell casting ability modifier again.
Heightened (+1) The initial healing increases by 1d4.
Enchanting force (2 actions) – Your direct your force of personality towards the target, compelling it to feel deference towards you.
The target make a will save whenever it rolls an attack against you or your allies.
Sustain: on subsequent turns you may sustain the hex on this target.
Critical success – Nothing happens
Success – The target takes a -1 circumstance bonus to their attack roll
Fail – The target takes a -3 circumstance bonus to their attack roll and takes psychic damage equal to your intelligence modifier.
Critical fail – The attack roll counts as having rolled a fail.
Old Rot (fortitude save) (2 actions) – You extend a powerful force of age towards your target. You deal negative energy damage equal to 1d4 plus your spellcasting ability modifier. If this damage would knock the target unconscious or kill them, you may deal half the damage again to another target within 30ft.
Sustain: On a failed save the old rot lingers and you may sustain it against the target to deal half the damage again (rounding up) on subsequent turns. You may not target a creature with old rot, if old rot is being sustained against it.
Heightened (+1) The damage increases by 1d4.
Shrouded by night – You may target yourself or an ally with this hex, the target counts as concealed until the end of your next turn. If targeted by a magical light effect the target’s concealment is negated.
Sustain: you may sustain this hex.
Major Hexes (LV8):
Major Hexes are focus spells unique to a witch and they may only be acquired through your patron and the patron wanderer feat. They all have a range or radius of 30ft and may all be sustained for upto a minute. You may never sustain more than one major hex.
Major Hex list:
Earthen Ally (focus 4) (2 actions) – The very ground beneath your feet counts you as an ally and heads your guidance to strike down your enemies. Until the end of your next turn a 30ft radius around you counts as difficult terrain for your any creatures you regard as hostile. This area moves with you.
Sustain – If you use an action to sustain this spell you may make a spell attack roll, against one opponent if you hit the opponent takes 4D6 bludgeoning damage. On a critical hit they’re knocked prone.
Heighten (+1) The damage increases by 1D6
Death Stare (Focus 4) (2 actions) (Will save) – Debuff/Damage. You fix a target with your gaze, channelling all your understanding of death into their mind and must roll a will save.
Critical success – Nothing happens
Success – The target takes half damage
Fail – The target takes 5D10 mental damage and is frightened 1. This effect stacks with evil eye.
Critical Fail – The Target takes 5D10 mental damage and is stunned.
Sustain – On a failed save you may sustain this hex and the target must save again or take further damage, on a failed save the frightened condition is also sustained. On a critical fail the stunned condition is also sustained.
Heighten (+1) the damage increases by 1D10
Draw in darkness – (focus 4) (2 actions) The night wraps around you and your allies protecting you from harm. Until the end of your next turn a 30ft radius of darkness you, but your allies see normally.
Sustain – If you use an action to sustain this hex enemies within the darkness must make a fortitude save on a fail it takes 4d4 negative damage. On a critical fail they’re blinded.
Heighten (+1) the damage increases by 1D4
Royal Aspect – (Focus 4) (2 actions) You project your power to manipulate reality out into the world and allow it to wash over allies and enemies alike. Allies within 30ft of you gain a +1 one circumstance bonus to AC, hit and save rolls. This bonus stacks with fortune.
Enemies within the radius must make a will save or take a -1 circumstance bons to AC, hit and save rolls. This bonus stacks with Misfortune.
Sustain – On each turn you sustain this hex all allies heal for hit points equal to your spell casting ability modifier.
Withering Presence – (Focus 4) (2 actions) You project the boundless age of your patron out into the world and allow it to grind away at your foes. Any foe within 30ft of you must make a fortitude save or take 8d4 negative energy damage. On a success they take half.
Sustain – You may sustain this hex for upto a minute.
Heighten (+1) the damage increases by 2d4
Boundless Hope – (Focus 4) (2 actions) Hope pours out of you filling your allies with such certainty that their bodies begin to believe there is no way they might lose. Allies within 30ft of you heal for 4d4 hit points and any additional healing they receive from other sources is doubled.
Sustain: You may sustain this hex for upto a minute.
Heighten (+1) the healing increases by 1d4
Grand Hex LV19:
The grand hex is the pinnacle of a witches power and can only be granted via their patron. Each grand hex comes with an associated supreme status.
Mistress of fates
Supreme status – The fates bend to your whims with barely a glance you can save a doomed creature or doom a saved one and bad luck is a thing of the past for you.
Whenever you would critically fail an attack, save or skill check you may reroll, you must take the new result
Once per day you may treat a failed save or hit roll as a success.
Grand Hex -
Control Fate (2 actions): You reach out and grasp control of another creature’s fate for the next minute. Once per turn as a free action you may alter saves and hit rolls by one grade, from success to critical success. If you attempt the degrade a result the creature may make a will save.
Upon casting the control fate hex and with a control fate action (1 action) on subsequent turns, you may teleport the creature to any un-occupied space within 60ft, including in the air.
As a reaction when another creature makes an attack roll you may switch the grasped creatures position with that of the attacks target and the grasped creature becomes the target. You may teleport the creature out of the line of an attack roll that targets it.
Life bringer
Supreme status – Life energy pours out of you, you cease to age and you may choose how old you appear each day when you commune with your familiar. If you stay in one place for more than hour plant life starts to spring up at your feet.
Whenever you must make a recovery check you gain a +5 circumstance bonus and your dying condition counts as 1 lower.
Whenever you receive healing from any source the result is increased by 1.5 times.
Grand Hex –
Eruption of life (2 actions): Pick one target creature (it can be yourself) and it is treated as being the target of the regeneration Spell. A 30ft radius of positive energy erupts from this target, healing all allies for 10D8+40 hit points, any healing over the creatures max hit points becomes temporary hit points. Any undead in the area take an equal amount of positive energy damage, on a fortitude save for half.
Friend of death
Supreme status – The lady of graves is familiar with you, and is in no rush to claim your soul, you continue to age but suffer no more ill effects of age.
Whenever you must make a recovery check you gain a +5 circumstance bonus and your dying condition counts as 1 lower.
You gain resistance to negative energy damage.
You always count as having died within the last minute for the sake of resurrection effects, like raise dead and attempts to resurrect you require no material component.
Grand Hex –
Quintessence stream (2 actions): You reach through the folds of creation dragging a river of quintessence into the material plane and hurl it towards your foes.
Everything in a 60ft cone makes a reflex save, creatures within the cone take 10D10 force damage. On a failed save creatures within the cone are knocked prone, forced back to end of the cones area of effect and the next time they take damage, double the damage dice.
Critical failure: The creature dies.
Queen of the land
Supreme Power – The earth counts you as one of its own, and where you walk, you’re never alone.
No natural landform is ever considered difficult terrain for you.
You count as permanently under the effects of speak with animals and speak with plants.
Once per day you may open a portal inside a tree and use it to travel to any other sufficiently large tree that you know, anywhere in the world, you and up to 10 allies may travel through this portal.
Nature’s rage (2 actions) – Animals, trees and the earth itself stampedes, rages and rips at your whim tearing your enemies asunder.
Animals, boulders and great trees slam into targets in a 60ft cone, anything in the area must make a reflex save for 10D10 bludgeoning damage, everywhere within the area of effect becomes permanently difficult terrain. Any creatures that remain within that difficult terrain at the end of their turn must make a reflex save or become restrained.
On the subsequent you can draw another 60ft cone from anywhere along the end emanation of the first. After the second cone the spell ends.
Critical success: No damage
Success: Half damage
Fail: 10D10 bludgeoning damage
Critical fail: 10D10 bludgeoning and the target is restrained to the ground.
Lady in shadow
Supreme status – The night knows you and follows you, even in broad daylight you’ll always be cast in half light.
You always count as concealed during combat, and can see through darkness and magical darkness as if it were daylight. Whenever you’re in dim light or darker you may use the slip through shadows action.
Slip through shadow (1 action): You teleport 30ft or less to an unoccupied space in dim light or darkness.
Grand Hex -
World of darkness (3 actions):
You summon the night as your ultimate ally to create a world of your own where you’re the master for the next minute.
A 120 ft radius of magical darkness bursts from you. All you allies within this area gain the same magical dark vision as lady in shadow grants you allowing them to see as though it were daylight.
All your allies also gain the slip through shadow action whilst they’re within the radios.
Whilst within the area of effect you gain resistance to all damage types. If you fall unconscious the effect ends early.
...
Spells:
Trained in Occult Spell Attacks
Trained in Arcane Spell DCs...
Did a quick skim and that's the only noticeable mistake I saw, but it is a big one since I think you intended for the witch to be occult only, and gain thematic spells based on the Patron, which are all now distinctly Witch themed.
Other notes:
- The Boon from the Crone patron might be a bit much compared to the other ones, legendary in perception is really rare in this game and I think none of the casters get it in pf2e; suggest changing that to trained in a free skill.
- The changes to the chant are a bit harder to wrap my head around since they are more involved, but making it a core part of their kit seemed fair on the base witch.
- With that said it being free alongside lessons might be a bit too strong compared to the power level of existing casters. Makes me think of the psychic minus the low number of spell slots.
- This is actually a bit exacerbated by the free slot depending on patron, which I get that it's a nice way to make the spell list still feel diverse.
I feel like one of the last 3 bullet points needs to be either toned down or moved to feats, leaning on the chant line and it's buffs. They don't feel as mandatory since the free patron spells don't all require sustain.
...
Spells:
Trained in Occult Spell Attacks
Trained in Arcane Spell DCs...
Did a quick skim and that's the only noticeable mistake I saw, but it is a big one since I think you intended for the witch to be occult only, and gain thematic spells based on the Patron, which are all now distinctly Witch themed.
Other notes:
- The Boon from the Crone patron might be a bit much compared to the other ones, legendary in perception is really rare in this game and I think none of the casters get it in pf2e; suggest changing that to trained in a free skill.
- The changes to the chant are a bit harder to wrap my head around since they are more involved, but making it a core part of their kit seemed fair on the base witch.
- With that said it being free alongside lessons might be a bit too strong compared to the power level of existing casters. Makes me think of the psychic minus the low number of spell slots.
- This is actually a bit exacerbated by the free slot depending on patron, which I get that it's a nice way to make the spell list still feel diverse.I feel like one of the last 3 bullet points needs to be either toned down or moved to feats, leaning on the chant line and it's buffs. They don't feel as mandatory since the free patron spells don't all require sustain.
You're exactly right, I think thats a copy paste error. lol.
Yeah the crone boon had me scratching my head for a while, but I wasn't sure what to do there otherwise. I thought maybe something to make them harder to lie but I wasn't sure how to implement that mechanically. Maybe a free skill feat?
You might have missed it, but this version of the witch has reduced spell slots, like the psychic. So the hex + chant being inline with them sounds ideal to me.
I figured the free slots wouldn't be too game breaking because you can't prepare what you like in them or heighten the spells in them so only the top ones will be applicable in combat usually. Most of the lower ones will end up being out of combat utility as you level.
Knowing now that the witch has the same spell slot progression as a psychic (but without 10th level spells) do you still think one of the three points needs addressing?
Okay lets me pull my thought together:
Pros:
* More witch flavored.
* Hexes are clearly meant to be the core.
* Patrons actually do something.
* No cackle tax.
* Grand Hexes do feel grand.Con:
* Hexes feel weak for being 2 action sustain, and potentially a reaction.
* Mayor hexes seem questionable.
* The feats you have locked behind patrons should not have been locked behind patrons. A night witch should be able to form a convent just like a Crone should be able to be a world witch. Make new feats that are clearly themed around the patron itself.
* Personally I would enjoy it more if I could pick from any hex regardless of patron. Instead having the patron give special boons like the Supreme Status.Meh:
* Feats giving a 1/day hex discount sounds good, but it feels a bit boring.
* The scaling of some hexes is hard to grasp.
8* The wording could use a little shortening, but its more a personal preference.
* There feels like there should be more you could do to change how hexes work.*****************
Now some examples of how I would change some of what I though felt bad/meh.
** spoiler omitted **...
Once they're cast a hex can be sustained with the chant action as single action, and they can be sustained alongside a sustain spell or a second hex. (although never two major hexes)
So I was wary of making them two strong because eventually you could be sustaining two a turn and casting a cantrip. Or sustaining a hex and a major hex and casting a cantrip. Which could be pretty big ramp up.
For example a crone at level ten could do the following
turn 1:
+ Demoralize action to give frightened one
++ Evil Eye to give a further frightened two
Turn 2:
+ Chant to sustain the evil eye frightened
++ Death stare to give 6D10 and now they're frightened 2
turn 3:
+ Chant to sustain the now frightened 2 and deal 6d10 (and potentially stun)
++ Chilltouch for a further 5d4 and enfeebled 1
So for the price of one focus point you've given enfeebled 1, frightened 2, 12D10 and 5d4 damage.
So I'd be wary to make hexes in general too powerful.
Although at a second glance I do think evil eye specifically might be undertuned.
I might consider 3 on a crit fail, 2 on a fail, 1 on a success, so it always does something, otherwise its arguably worse than demoralise.
What do you mean by questionable?
I gave the coven feats to mother, maiden and crone cause they're the traditional coven positions. Where as I envisioned night and swamp as more hermit/wanderer loner types, that draw their power more from solitude in the world.
I could see the hex you wrote as coven being changed to "Cauldron" and being a hex available to every patron.
As for all the hexes being available to every patron, I don't really like the idea cause it makes the patrons so much more homogenised, the spells slots are really the second feature, the hexes and major hexes are really the main selling point.
I did make sure every patron had access to a damage and debuff hex, so they should never feel like they've got nothing to do based on their patron choice.
The limits are more like, the Crone hexes leans into damage mroe than any other, the maiden leans more into manipulation, mother healing, and swamp and night both do control in different ways. Nights more defensive, where as swamps a bit more buffy/healy.
I wanted that identity to carry through every patron, not just in the spell slot application.
Plus there are only 8 hexes and every patron has access to four. So its not like they're all missing loads. 5 out of 9 if you add the cauldron as I suggested.
And you can get access to any major hex you like through the patron wanderer major hex.
......
You might have missed it, but this version of the witch has reduced spell slots, like the psychic. So the hex + chant being inline with them sounds ideal to me.
...
Knowing now that the witch has the same spell slot progression as a psychic (but without 10th level spells) do you still think one of the three points needs addressing?
I just saw it now thank you. With a psychic progression that makes things a lot more reasonable.
In fact it's probably good to playtest. The extra coven spell now puts them on the same line as the bard for spell slots. No focus spell at level 1 but an enhanced familiar sounds like a fair trade. Chant only comes into play at level 3. Major hexes come into play at level 8 so you have time to get used to the playstyle before you throw new mechanics. All in all that looks pretty good.
......
You might have missed it, but this version of the witch has reduced spell slots, like the psychic. So the hex + chant being inline with them sounds ideal to me.
...
Knowing now that the witch has the same spell slot progression as a psychic (but without 10th level spells) do you still think one of the three points needs addressing?I just saw it now thank you. With a psychic progression that makes things a lot more reasonable.
In fact it's probably good to playtest. The extra coven spell now puts them on the same line as the bard for spell slots. No focus spell at level 1 but an enhanced familiar sounds like a fair trade. Chant only comes into play at level 3. Major hexes come into play at level 8 so you have time to get used to the playstyle before you throw new mechanics. All in all that looks pretty good.
Gosh I’d be very pleased if anyone did choose to play test it.
...Okay lets me pull my thought together:
Pros:
* More witch flavored.
* Hexes are clearly meant to be the core.
* Patrons actually do something.
* No cackle tax.
* Grand Hexes do feel grand.Con:
* Hexes feel weak for being 2 action sustain, and potentially a reaction.
* Mayor hexes seem questionable.
* The feats you have locked behind patrons should not have been locked behind patrons. A night witch should be able to form a convent just like a Crone should be able to be a world witch. Make new feats that are clearly themed around the patron itself.
* Personally I would enjoy it more if I could pick from any hex regardless of patron. Instead having the patron give special boons like the Supreme Status.Meh:
* Feats giving a 1/day hex discount sounds good, but it feels a bit boring.
* The scaling of some hexes is hard to grasp.
8* The wording could use a little shortening, but its more a personal preference.
* There feels like there should be more you could do to change how hexes work.*****************
Now some examples of how I would change some of what I though felt bad/meh.
** spoiler omitted **...Once they're cast a hex can be sustained with the chant action as single action, and they can be sustained alongside a sustain spell or a second hex. (although never two major hexes)
So I was wary of making them two strong because eventually you could be sustaining two a turn and casting a cantrip. Or sustaining a hex and a major hex and casting a cantrip. Which could be pretty big ramp up.
For example a crone at level ten could do the following
turn 1:
+ Demoralize action to give frightened one
++ Evil Eye to give a further frightened twoTurn 2:
+ Chant to sustain the evil eye frightened
++ Death stare to give 6D10 and now they're frightened 2turn 3:
+ Chant to sustain the now frightened 2 and deal 6d10 (and potentially stun)
++ Chilltouch for a further 5d4 and enfeebled 1So for
The thing is I don’t want to make one hex the signature of the class, “the class is about sustaining and evil eye is the sustain hex, therefore you have to have evil eye or you’re missing a big chunk of your kit.
That’s why every hex can be sustained, so whatever play style you go with (damage/debuff/buff/heal) you can always use your chanting to get additional value.
Like if someone wants to make some kindly granny in the woods character, taking the mother patron and going down the nurturing root, their first action being evil eye every time doesn’t make any sense.
Of the 6 major hexes, 2 deal damage and one heals. Draw in darkness and Earthen Ally give you a damage rider if you sustain them on subsequent turns. But the effect when you actually use them is an control area of effect, difficult terrain or darkness. And royal aspect has a small healing rider, but is largely just a buffing/debuffing aura.
The blockage I had with “you’re cursed, you’re blessed” thing is there are only so many bonuses pf2 have to give, before you start stepping on toes. Like you could do a movement speed thing, but then you’ve got haste the hex, or turn them into a frog, but that’s baleful polymorph the hex, lol. I didn’t want to just be reskinning spells. There’s definitely scope to expand the list though, probably by someone more pf2 experienced than me.
As for the patrons having their own hexes meaning hexes can’t have new ones, that’s quite easy to fix, you give hexes a “patron:” section within their entry, so for example, under evil eye it would say
Evil eye
Patron: crone, night.
Relatively easy fix, I’m not convinced of the benefits of making all hexes available to all. In my experience tailored lists help people crystallise character concepts as long as all the patrons have relatively strong selections it should be fine.
Also when everyone has access to everything you’d inevitably end up with some hexes being taken by almost every witch and some being taken by none, because as hard as you try to balance things, there’s always going to be a best option. A best debuff, a best blast, a best control option.
And personally I hate that kind of thing. It’s the whole, every blaster caster learns electric arc because it’s simply the best cantrip blast around. If they don’t get it they’ll take some cantrip expansion feta so they do.
With hexes broken down into patrons you don’t have to worry about that, in fact you can intentionally make a best blast and inferior blasts and give the best blast to the patrons you intend to lean most towards damage.
You can give the best buffs to the patrons you want to lean into buffing, it actually gives you more range designing hexes because you don’t have to worry about power creep and toe stepping quite so much.
On the other hand, I am quite convinced of the patron exclusive feats you mentioned, I think they’re pretty brilliant, and could be used to break down some of what the supreme status gives and the boons as you mentioned,
I think I’d give the supreme status though, just more as a ribbon, like the maiden stops aging, the crone never stood aging but suffers no I’ll effect. However, as you say, the dark vision stuff and other effects like it should be patron exclusive feats.
That said, I do like your unique feat line ideas.
...Hmm I think maybe you misunderstood me a bit. I am not saying Evil Eye should be the only hex or the only sustain hex. I used Evil Eye in the first example because its the easiest to show what I think hexes should be able to do. I used Evil Eye in the turn example because that's the example you used.
If someone wants to make a witch that goes around protecting people I would hope they use protection hex to make the person less likely to get hit. If I someone wanted a witch that goes around manipulating luck I would expect they go with fortune or misfortune. If they want a healing witch I would want them to get whatever healing hex. The important part being that the witch is not bound by whatever the Patron wants, but what the witch wants.
To me this sounds like you're railing against the whole idea of classes picking patrons or bloodlines or mysteries of whatever it happens to be.
Ever class is designed with there choices helping to define what you're good add.
If you wanna play a blaster druid you're picking storm or stone. If you wanna tangle in melee you're picking wild.
Your patron/bloodline should effect how your character plays, in my opinion at least. And in this design, hexes are a big part of how a witch will play.
You say "just add the tag to the patron tag to the new hexes" but that is extra work when you could just balance hexes for the class instead of for each individual patron. To me having the hex that does X belong only to the patron who does X is just as bad as a hex being too strong and the only pick. Its the design they went for with the whole lessons thing, and it feels like the only reason people don't only pick fervor witch is because they hard coded the spell list. So in my mind hard locking behind patron doesn't actually stop the "you have to pick X hex" it just changes it to "you have to pick X patron", which is worse.
its a lot less work than balancing every single hex so that there is no best option and making sure any new hexes never invalidate an old one in some form or fashion.
The problem with lessons to me is they're too weak to justify using and don't keep up with their equivalents in other classes, when according to the precedent of pf1, witches should be the best cantrip/focus spell class, since thats really what hexes were.
Well as you yourself said they all have damage or healing as the main or secondary effect. I feel like hexes should do stuff other than damage or healing. Of course a few of those hexes should still be a thing like Retribution Hex (the target gets cursed so they take half the melee damage they dealt), but they should be the minority. Not to mention the fact most of them are AoE which seems counter to the more personal/single target nature of witches. Just to make sure, I am not saying having AoE hexes is bad, but again more a matter of how many should be AoE.
I said that they have damage or healing riders. The main effect of half of them has nothing to do with damage or healing.
None of the hexes are AoE, the major hexes are, but the idea there was they're expanding their influence to effect more than one person. Any old witch can curse a person. It takes a powerful one to curse a town, is the idea.
I do agree more variety in hex effects would be good, I admit I found the pf2 design space a bit confining there. When all you've got is status bonuses and untyped really to play with, plus difficult terrain and light levels I felt quite constrained.
Without just doing things spells already do. Like the flight hex in pf1 that was just bad flight until it was actual flight, lol. I'd be happy to with any suggestions in that regard
Glad you liked the feats I suggested,...
I'm quite familiar with the pf1 witch, fortune, misfortune and earthen clutch are all very much inspired by the pf1 witch. Earthen clutch being a twist on swamps grasp.
part of my issue was I found a lot of the pf1 hexes just did what spells do, to a greater or weaker degree.
water lung, flight, slumber, charm, tongues, etc they're just spells that work slightly better or slightly worse than the spells they mimic, which feels a bit underwhelming for a prepared caster who can feasibly access whatever they want from a list everyday.
This is an interesting take. I really like your chant/cackle design for first sustaining hexes and then later spells too. Also love your redesign of the hair feats. Nice and flavorful.
Regarding the flavor of hexes, I kind of get what Temperans is saying with having more of a focus on debuffing/buffing. In addition to looking through what the PF 1 witch & shaman could do, you might also examine PF2's selection of conditions. One thing I've got in my (not yet shared) draft of a (more partial) witch redesign are additional spells that cause conditions:
For example:Enervating Beam (Spell 1)
- Traits: Attack, Necromancy
- Traditions: arcane, divine, occult
- Cast (2 actions): somatic, verbal
- Range: 30 feet; Targets: 1 creature
- Saving Throw: Fortitude; Duration: 1 minute
- Effect: A ray with the power to sap a foe's vitality flashes from your hand. Attempt a ranged spell attack against the target. If you succeed, that creature attempts a Fortitude save in order to determine the spell's effect. If you critically succeed on your attack roll, use the outcome for one degree of success worse than the result of its save.
-- Critical Success: The target is unaffected.
-- Success: The target becomes drained 1.
-- Failure: The target becomes drained 2.
-- Critical Failure: The target becomes drained 3.Maladroit Flash (Spell 1)
- Traits: Attack, Enchantment
- Traditions: arcane, divine, occult
- Cast (2 actions): somatic, verbal
- Range: 30 feet; Targets: 1 creature
- Saving Throw: Fortitude; Duration: 1 minute
- Effect: A ray with the power to sap a foe's agility flashes from your hand. Attempt a ranged spell attack against the target. If you succeed, that creature attempts a Fortitude save in order to determine the spell's effect. If you critically succeed on your attack roll, use the outcome for one degree of success worse than the result of its save.
-- Critical Success: The target is unaffected.
-- Success: The target becomes clumsy 1.
-- Failure: The target becomes clumsy 2....
First of all, thankyou :)
I like your idea of granting a way to access to clumsy, drained and doomed condition (although I think I'd drop the Rays, doesn't feel very witchy to me and they already have to fail a save, don't need to stack missing on there too)
I steered away from long term curses and diseases, because I think one of the pitfalls of the witch is it seems to lead people down the route of designing abilities that are much more useful for NPCs than players.
A PC getting cursed with a permanent negative -2 to something or other until they find a high level cleric is potentially a cool story arc.
Putting a permanent curse or wasting disease on a mob that'll be dead in 2 turns is less impactful.
I wouldn't say it was a nerf so much as a side grade. I designed the grand hexes to have effects inline with 10th level spells or upgrades to 9th level spells and they have a feat to be able to cast them twice a day.
For example, Eruption of life is a sidegrade/upgrade on revival.
I was looking at Massacre when I made quintessence stream. etc ect.
Yeah, I went a bit too far in talking there didn't I, sorry about that. Its not like I dislike that type of design, bloodlines are good afterall. At least in my personal case, its a matter of flavor, I just don't see hexes as ever coming from the patron. To me hexes is what makes a witch different from a cleric, do making hexes and patrons closer to domains and deities feels like a missed step. I understood wanting to incorporate patrons more into the playstyle, I never had an issue with that.
In the future, I'll at least try not to mention the topic again (at least not in this thread).Its always going to be difficult balancing a bunch of options, just look at feats. I don't think limiting the options helps with that though. What it does help with is limit how you can mix and match to prevent unforceen combos. But aren't those combos what makes hexes good?
I agree lessons were poorly designed and fail to meet the expectations of the class.
I said that they have damage or healing riders. The main effect of half of them...
I've had an idea.
Another kind of hex.
What we have now is Hexes, Major Hexes, Grand Hexes
Make that Patron Hexes, Major Hexes, and grand hexes.
Patron hexes stay as they are, except you get one at level one, one at level 5 and one at level 10. No more from feats.
They become the backbone, designed to make sure whatever patron you get and whatever spells you have you've always got something to do.
And in addition we create hexes, you get which you get at level 4, 8, 12 and 16.
These are now what you can take the feat to get extra of and they're once a day.
These would be things like Flight, Tongues, Speak with dead, water breathing etc.
Also I had an idea for another Major hex.
Steal Senses.
Will save, if they fail you get to choose a condition to inflict on them, from blindness, deafness, scent and mutism
If they critically fail take 2.
On subsequent turns you can maintain this and steal another sense or pick a new target and begin stealing their senses.