Yes we have confirmation from LoganTemprans, that is not how any GM I have played with runs it. Does your GM run it that way? This could be a contributing factor to your frustration with casters.I run it once per spell. Never have allowed magic missile to add the damage once per missile. Do we know if it works that way?
Nice. Makes those types of spells a little better.
Even in your 6th level spell slot example, elemental toss is less DPR than a single action magic missile cast from a 6th level slot with dangerous sorcery if you require an 11 to hit. The automatic damage of magic missile is very strong in DPR calculations since nearly half the damage essentially goes out the window in a 50/50 hit situation with a spell attack roll spell. An 11th level evoked throwing down a chain lightning and a 1 action 5th level magic missile on round one of a combat is doing more damage that round than any Druid. Yes, a sorcerer could do the same, but not as many times per day. Force bolt heightens awkwardly in this level 11 comparison. It is significantly less damage than the 5th level magic missile (at least 5 points behind if only targeting 1, but could be 15 behind). It does much better against elemental toss at odd spell levels, but is more of a round 2 or 3 focus point spell to use when it doesn’t feel as necessary. Against hard to hit enemies though it will outpace elemental toss, even at even spell levels.
One round is not how damage occurs. The druid does more damage consistently over the course of adventuring day. Sure, a wizard in one round could have a good damage round, but so could the druid. That will depend on saves. I've had a Tempest Surge hit for well over a 100 points of damage more than a few times on a critical fail along with the persistent electricity and the clumsy 2. Then followed up with a bow shot with reduced AC as well as providing all my party members reduced AC and saves.
My damage tracking was over the course of sustained fights. No one is able to sustain good damage like a druid or sorcerer due to the focus options.
I know a wizard can do good damage for a single round, but my damage tracking was consistently over an adventuring day. A wizard's so called casting superiority does not exist over an adventuring day. Focus spells are what allow you to sustain damage over an adventuring. Spell slots are good for burst damage and other support functions, but a good blasting focus spell, cantrips, magic items, and the spell slots for the foundation of sustainable casting damage over an adventuring day that is comparable to martial damage.
Not to mention that I highly dislike the idea that an Evoker Wizards, Witch, Druid, etc needs to multiclass into Sorcerer just to be a good blaster.Usually, but Wizards (even Blaster Wizards) aren't going to prepare all of their top level slots for Blasting. Speaking from experience, some of the best spells I cast were the ones that did no damage.
I will say that I absolutely would have liked to take MCD Sorcerer as a Wizard for the added spell slots as well as feats like Dangerous Sorcery and maybe if there was a good Focus spell feat or something, but the only reason why I didn't was because of the 14 Charisma ability score requirement; it's hard to justify when you need to make sure your Intelligence as well as your 3 key Save stats need to be maximized (because as a Wizard, your Saving Throw progression is awful). You also can't just apply it via Free Archetype, since you still need to meet requirements for it, and Multitalented via Half-Elf is too narrow of a scope to reasonably treat it as a common avenue to take it.
The druid doesn't need sorcerer for damage dealing, but the ideal druid is not a pure blaster. But just an overall casting damage dealer.
Thing about the druid is they look very cool doing what they do. Nothing like walking in as a druid, unleashing some brutal primal blast spell, then next round transforming into a dragon while taking to the air hammering with reach attacks and a breath weapon.
Not sure if the designer of the druid is a fan of the Terry Brooks novels, but he made the druid into the new badass damage caster of PF2. Makes you feel more like the equivalent of an Allanon from the Shannara novels. Druids are extremely scary in PF2.
If a druid order decides your city is done, you are not going to be a happy camper if a bunch of wild and storm druids descend on your location and decide to raze your city to the ground.
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Not to mention that I highly dislike the idea that an Evoker Wizards, Witch, Druid, etc needs to multiclass into Sorcerer just to be a good blaster.
That is a very narrow way of looking at builds. It is a team game. Status bonuses to damage don't stack with other status bonuses to damage. There are other ways to pick that up, and it doesn't need to be you that does it.
Not to mention that I highly dislike the idea that an Evoker Wizards, Witch, Druid, etc needs to multiclass into Sorcerer just to be a good blaster.Usually, but Wizards (even Blaster Wizards) aren't going to prepare all of their top level slots for Blasting. Speaking from experience, some of the best spells I cast were the ones that did no damage.
I will say that I absolutely would have liked to take MCD Sorcerer as a Wizard for the added spell slots as well as feats like Dangerous Sorcery and maybe if there was a good Focus spell feat or something, but the only reason why I didn't was because of the 14 Charisma ability score requirement; it's hard to justify when you need to make sure your Intelligence as well as your 3 key Save stats need to be maximized (because as a Wizard, your Saving Throw progression is awful). You also can't just apply it via Free Archetype, since you still need to meet requirements for it, and Multitalented via Half-Elf is too narrow of a scope to reasonably treat it as a common avenue to take it.
The druid doesn't need sorcerer for damage dealing, but the ideal druid is not a pure blaster. But just an overall casting damage dealer.
Thing about the druid is they look very cool doing what they do. Nothing like walking in as a druid, unleashing some brutal primal blast spell, then next round transforming into a dragon while taking to the air hammering with reach attacks and a breath weapon.
Not sure if the designer of the druid is a fan of the Terry Brooks novels, but he made the druid into the new badass damage caster of PF2. Makes you feel more like the equivalent of an Allanon from the Shannara novels. Druids are extremely scary in PF2.
If a druid order decides your city is done, you are not going to be a happy camper if a bunch of wild and storm druids descend on your location and decide to raze your city to the ground.
It is awesome that you really enjoy the Druid. It is a fine class and if focus point casting is what makes a class fun for you, the wizard is not going to be your class in PF2. It is ok. There are a lot of classes that are just not my class in PF2. As strong as the bard is, it is boring to me. I don't mind covering the healer, but the classes that do it well are pretty boring in play for me and I don't love any of them.
The wizard is the spell slot, problem-solving caster. If you house rule the things that really make them special into general things for every caster, then their uniqueness is pretty much lost.
I get that some people don't like that the developers chose spell slots as the wizards focus, and feel like the focus spells and theses of the wizard don't make casting spells from spell slots interesting enough for them, but that is the balance point the devs went with. If you just want to cast lots of different spell slot spells all the time, than the wizard is bar none the best class in the game for it and fulfills this fantasy very well. Especially if you are willing to accept that casters are expected to spend gold on getting more spell slots each day.
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It is awesome that you...Not to mention that I highly dislike the idea that an Evoker Wizards, Witch, Druid, etc needs to multiclass into Sorcerer just to be a good blaster.Usually, but Wizards (even Blaster Wizards) aren't going to prepare all of their top level slots for Blasting. Speaking from experience, some of the best spells I cast were the ones that did no damage.
I will say that I absolutely would have liked to take MCD Sorcerer as a Wizard for the added spell slots as well as feats like Dangerous Sorcery and maybe if there was a good Focus spell feat or something, but the only reason why I didn't was because of the 14 Charisma ability score requirement; it's hard to justify when you need to make sure your Intelligence as well as your 3 key Save stats need to be maximized (because as a Wizard, your Saving Throw progression is awful). You also can't just apply it via Free Archetype, since you still need to meet requirements for it, and Multitalented via Half-Elf is too narrow of a scope to reasonably treat it as a common avenue to take it.
The druid doesn't need sorcerer for damage dealing, but the ideal druid is not a pure blaster. But just an overall casting damage dealer.
Thing about the druid is they look very cool doing what they do. Nothing like walking in as a druid, unleashing some brutal primal blast spell, then next round transforming into a dragon while taking to the air hammering with reach attacks and a breath weapon.
Not sure if the designer of the druid is a fan of the Terry Brooks novels, but he made the druid into the new badass damage caster of PF2. Makes you feel more like the equivalent of an Allanon from the Shannara novels. Druids are extremely scary in PF2.
If a druid order decides your city is done, you are not going to be a happy camper if a bunch of wild and storm druids descend on your location and decide to raze your city to the ground.
My problem with the wizard is a lack of fun builds and a clearly weaker chassis than other casters for no benefit gained from doing so.
In previous editions, the lack of weapons, weak AC and saves, and the like made sense because wizards became exponentially more powerful with more powerful magic. It doesn't make sense any more to keep them with the same type of limitations while severely reducing the power of casting. I think the same thing applies to the witch.
I don't mind weaker casting. It was a needed power reduction given the extreme problems in PF1.
But if you're going to do it, they should have provided some compensation to the wizard and probably the witch.
I've tried to explain the multiple problems with the wizard and I wish people would stop focusing on a single aspect of the class. Wizard casting is fine. I have no real complaints. It's on par with other classes with a few more slots or options with the Arcane Thesis.
It's all the other stuff that makes them weak:
1. Weak focus spells.
2. Uninteresting school options.
3. 6 hit points per level.
4. Bad weapon proficiencies so you can't even take advantage of ancestry feats.
5. Same end game casting proficiency as all other classes.
6. Same number of spell slots as most other casting classes not including school spells.
7. Low value casting statistic given the boost in Charisma based skills and all the benefits of a wisdom based caster.
8. Weak defenses with no armor and same low caster saves as other classes.
Add it all up and you have a weaker caster with the Wizard and Witch with nothing to compensate.
You like the wizard, so you overlook all the deficiencies. That's fine. Folks like what they like. It doesn't mean they don't exist. The wizard and witch are measurably weaker casting classes that used to have a payoff at high level for all the weakness at lower level. That payoff is no longer there, yet the legacy weaknesses are there. I don't get why they chose to do that as it makes the classes feel demonstrably weaker than other options and to some of us less fun because of it.
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It's all the other stuff that makes them weak:
1. Weak focus spells.
2. Uninteresting school options.
3. 6 hit points per level.
4. Bad weapon proficiencies so you can't even take advantage of ancestry feats.
5. Same end game casting proficiency as all other classes.
6. Same number of spell slots as most other casting classes not including school spells.
7. Low value casting statistic given the boost in Charisma based skills and all the benefits of a wisdom based caster.
8. Weak defenses with no armor and same low caster saves as other classes.
Add it all up and you have a weaker caster with the Wizard and Witch with nothing to compensate.
Only a couple of the things on this list are specifically problems for the Wizard that I agree should be addressed; the rest is par for the course for the other spellcaster classes (though some have it even better than others, like the Bard and Druid).
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Only a couple of the things on this list are specifically problems for the Wizard that I agree should be addressed; the rest is par for the course for the other spellcaster classes (though some have it even better than others, like the Bard and Druid).It's all the other stuff that makes them weak:
1. Weak focus spells.
2. Uninteresting school options.
3. 6 hit points per level.
4. Bad weapon proficiencies so you can't even take advantage of ancestry feats.
5. Same end game casting proficiency as all other classes.
6. Same number of spell slots as most other casting classes not including school spells.
7. Low value casting statistic given the boost in Charisma based skills and all the benefits of a wisdom based caster.
8. Weak defenses with no armor and same low caster saves as other classes.
Add it all up and you have a weaker caster with the Wizard and Witch with nothing to compensate.
The wizard and witch get all the caster weaknesses, but very few of the quality build options of the other caster classes. You could argue the sorcerer falls into a similar category, but I feel they get suitable compensation and good build options. For all the caster weaknesses the sorcerer gets, they get:
1. Choice of spell list to fill different rolls.
2. Cheap damage booster with 1st level feat Dangerous Sorcery.
3. Quality focus spells depending on bloodline and a sometimes decent bloodline power.
4. Spontaneous casting with Signature Spells that allows them to cast any spell they know as needed with a few spells they can heighten as needed.
5. 36 total spells know including a handful of preset. But given they use spontaneous casting, their slots aren't locked in when they choose a spell.
6. Good feats for some variability if you desire it like Arcane Evolution or Occult Evolution, Cross-blooded to poach from another list for a heal or other useful off list spell.
7. Good value casting stat with Charisma for using skills like Diplomacy with Bon Mot and Intimidate with Demoralize.
It all adds up to a very versatile sorcerer able to fill multiple rolls with some standout feat builds and focus spells that make them stand out in a group.
I don't feel I'm asking for a lot for improved schools and some feats to make Intelligence feel like a more useful casting stat.
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I strongly believe the wizard focus spells are intentionally not supposed to be spells you always want to cast first thing in every encounter. The abjurer one gets closest, but if a class is supposed to think spell slots first, but it has focus spells like the Druid that become your class identity then you inherently are not the spell slot caster anymore.
Letting HP and weapon proficiencies define the class is still missing the point. The wizard is the class that is going to have the most possible spell slots. Its strength/weakness is going to rest on how it uses those slots. The more extra bells and whistles tagged on the class the less room there is to push the spell slots.
But there is also a point where just more spell slots don’t matter because you are not using them anymore. Maybe you feel like the dial in number isn’t correct, but that, and things that relate to how you cast spells from your spell slots is the heart of the class.
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I strongly believe the wizard focus spells are intentionally not supposed to be spells you always want to cast first thing in every encounter. The abjurer one gets closest, but if a class is supposed to think spell slots first, but it has focus spells like the Druid that become your class identity then you inherently are not the spell slot caster anymore.
Letting HP and weapon proficiencies define the class is still missing the point. The wizard is the class that is going to have the most possible spell slots. Its strength/weakness is going to rest on how it uses those slots. The more extra bells and whistles tagged on the class the less room there is to push the spell slots.
But there is also a point where just more spell slots don’t matter because you are not using them anymore. Maybe you feel like the dial in number isn’t correct, but that, and things that relate to how you cast spells from your spell slots is the heart of the class.
I'm not asking for a huge rework for the witch and wizard. Just a real look at the schools to create abilities that suit the playstyle of the schools and fit with the current spell paradigm as well as make them standout.
The proficiencies don't define the class. But it's not great when you have ancestry feats that give access to weapons, but the Wizard is the only guy that can't access them for some legacy reason that no longer applies. There are plenty of people who wouldn't mind spending an ancestry feat to grab a weapon, but without simple weapon proficiency you can't do it very effectively.
If the wizard had clearly the most spell slots for practical purposes I might agree with you, but they don't. I don't know why you think they do. A sorcerer gets 36 slots 1 to 9 and can learn 36 spells with 9 of those preset, so 27 spells with flexible spontaneous casting. They also have access to a flexible daily change with Arcane evolution and if you get Occult Evolution you can pick up a new mental spell with within a minute. The Divine Evolution gives you a free max level heal.
The wizard gets 27 slots base with 1 possible school spell and one use of bonded item base. This allows 28 to 37 castings. Difference being they are a prepared caster, so if they want to cast magic missile four times in a day, they must prepare magic missile four times in slots. Where as a sorcerer can cast magic missile 4 times per day or true strike or whatever other first level spell they have. Then they can get signature spell magic missile to heighten it at will casting it with slots as needed. So often for practical purposes, the sorcerer often has more slots per day. If they are an Arcane sorcerer they can pick up Arcane Evolution to change out a spell a day or take an extra spell in their repertoire. On top of that they can use Cross-blooded to pick a spell from another list that is quality. Then add on focus spell options, which can make them even more versatile.
The druid has less spell slots. But a Tempest surge makes for great blasting as a max level slot. It's very good. I've used wild shape for so many different reasons:
1. Scouting: You can scout in the air, scout under water, burrow underground to scout.
2. Transporting party members across obstacles like over walls, up mountains, across hot tar pits.
3. Martial combat as needed.
4. Pound through a wall of force with earth elemental form.
Wild shape is an incredibly versatile focus spell useful in a ton of situations.
My wizard has almost never looked as useful as my sorcerer or druid in combat. He has been useful out of combat making magic mailboxes and such, but very rarely in combat.
1. Choice of spell list to fill different rolls.
2. Cheap damage booster with 1st level feat Dangerous Sorcery.
3. Quality focus spells depending on bloodline and a sometimes decent bloodline power.
4. Spontaneous casting with Signature Spells that allows them to cast any spell they know as needed with a few spells they can heighten as needed.
5. 36 total spells know including a handful of preset. But given they use spontaneous casting, their slots aren't locked in when they choose a spell.
6. Good feats for some variability if you desire it like Arcane Evolution or Occult Evolution, Cross-blooded to poach from another list for a heal or other useful off list spell.
7. Good value casting stat with Charisma for using skills like Diplomacy with Bon Mot and Intimidate with Demoralize.
Well, you can cross #1 off the list right now, because this thread has demonstrated that pick-a-list is both worthless and has no value in determining class power. I've tried saying otherwise, but I've been shot down too much because build versatility isn't a value of class power.
While the second option seems good, and is a reason a lot of casters might multiclass for it, it then becomes an issue with it being a "must-have" feat, kind of like the Basic Lesson with Witches. It's also merely a nice boost; having a Bard in the party with Inspire Courage and Inspire Heroics takes the edge off this quite nicely, even if it isn't as potent.
The third option is definitely true, but I do know there are several "trap" focus options with Sorcerers as well, so it's not all roses and daisies.
The fourth option is a double-edged sword. Yes, you can memorize solid spells that you know will get regular use, and you don't have to deal with the complexities of preparing just the right amount of spells. But you will also lose out on the ability to prepare any spell you need, and Wizards getting a feat like Scroll Savant, which gives them free utility spells each day, is quite potent in being the Batman Utility Belt.
Wizards are at 36 as well (37 for non-Universalists), and have feats like Bond Conservation which give them more effective slots if done properly. They're also not restricted to a subset of spells that they can know, and when more and more spells get published, it becomes harder and harder for Sorcerers to justify either learning the new spells or abandoning the tried and true spells, which means they can get relatively bland in that sense.
Sorcerers do have better feats, but Wizards have a couple that are solid as well. Silent/Concealed Spell and Scroll Savant in particular give you unique options and more raw spell power/versatility that Sorcerers simply can't acquire (easily).
I do agree that Intelligence took a back seat in this edition, so on that front I think the Wizard should've been given a bit more meat, but honestly, the damage is already done when the class was printed. At best, we'll get a proficiency fix for their weaponry.
Personally I think there exist a potentially better spell progression where characters star off with a lot more spells slots so the early levels aren't so frustrating but instead of having the number of spells slots increase dramatically instead just have them scale so at the high levels they aren't utterly flush with discardable spells slots. But I think it would be different enough we will never see it.
A way to do it would be to have them start at 37 spell slots at 1st level scaling to what it currently stands at 19th level. For the Bounded Spellcasters, they can start at 4, and then progress into the scaling 2/2.
The big issue then becomes that it makes the early levels a drag to prepare spells (seriously, who starts out with 37 spells at 1st level?), and the fact that their adventuring day actually gets more difficult to adjudicate as they gain levels, so I suspect this was the reason why they didn't go this route.
1. Choice of spell list to fill different rolls.
2. Cheap damage booster with 1st level feat Dangerous Sorcery.
3. Quality focus spells depending on bloodline and a sometimes decent bloodline power.
4. Spontaneous casting with Signature Spells that allows them to cast any spell they know as needed with a few spells they can heighten as needed.
5. 36 total spells know including a handful of preset. But given they use spontaneous casting, their slots aren't locked in when they choose a spell.
6. Good feats for some variability if you desire it like Arcane Evolution or Occult Evolution, Cross-blooded to poach from another list for a heal or other useful off list spell.
7. Good value casting stat with Charisma for using skills like Diplomacy with Bon Mot and Intimidate with Demoralize.
Well, you can cross #1 off the list right now, because this thread has demonstrated that pick-a-list is both worthless and has no value in determining class power. I've tried saying otherwise, but I've been shot down too much because build versatility isn't a value of class power.
While the second option seems good, and is a reason a lot of casters might multiclass for it, it then becomes an issue with it being a "must-have" feat, kind of like the Basic Lesson with Witches. It's also merely a nice boost; having a Bard in the party with Inspire Courage and Inspire Heroics takes the edge off this quite nicely, even if it isn't as potent.
The third option is definitely true, but I do know there are several "trap" focus options with Sorcerers as well, so it's not all roses and daisies.
The fourth option is a double-edged sword. Yes, you can memorize solid spells that you know will get regular use, and you don't have to deal with the complexities of preparing just the right amount of spells. But you will also lose out on the ability to prepare any spell you need, and Wizards getting a feat like Scroll Savant, which gives them free utility spells each day, is quite potent in...
Lists don't determine class power. They are important for class role. I'm not sure they would put a power budget on the ability fill different class roles without actually doing more damage and once it's, it is not changing. The ability to pick your spell list allows more build variability without any change to the power level of the class and thus shouldn't have much to do with measuring damage metrics between classes.
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The fourth option is a double-edged sword. Yes, you can memorize solid spells that you know will get regular use, and you don't have to deal with the complexities of preparing just the right amount of spells. But you will also lose out on the ability to prepare any spell you need, and Wizards getting a feat like Scroll Savant, which gives them free utility spells each day, is quite potent in being the Batman Utility Belt.
The utility belt out of combat is useful. In combat, not so much. During an adventuring day it usually require the Spell Substitution thesis or you're waiting a day unless they perfectly memorized what you need.
The Arcane Sorcerer does have a spellbook they can change out or add one spell per day. So as long as you have sufficient downtime and a spellbook, you can change out some spells.
The Occult Sorcerer can add a mental spell with a 1 minute notice. There are a lot of nice spells with the mental trait.
Wizards are at 36 as well (37 for non-Universalists), and have feats like Bond Conservation which give them more effective slots if done properly. They're also not restricted to a subset of spells that they can know, and when more and more spells get published, it becomes harder and harder for Sorcerers to justify either learning the new spells or abandoning the tried and true spells, which means they can get relatively bland in that sense.
That's why I said practical purposes. If the wizard doesn't have the right spell in the slot or uses up his daily preparations and bond, then he's done casting that spell for that day. Whereas the sorcerer will have 4 of a given level spell he can cast up to 4 times in any combination as needed then a signature spell per level he can cast with a wide variety of slots.
I've found this makes the sorcerer the more valuable combat caster while an arcane evolution caster given time can change out a spell per day to do poor man's wizard changes.
For the druid I've found wild shape to be incredibly versatile during combat and exploration. Tempest Surge to be the only single target blast I need 99% of the time.
Sorcerers do have better feats, but Wizards have a couple that are solid as well. Silent/Concealed Spell and Scroll Savant in particular give you unique options and more raw spell power/versatility that Sorcerers simply can't acquire (easily).
Scroll Savant is nice. Bond Conservation. I like Spell Penetration given the number of creatures with a status bonus to saves against magic at higher level. And their level 20 feats are good.
I do not like having to use a feat for a silent or concealed spell. Wish they had put this in Stealth, Deception, or Arcana as a skill feat. Not a fan of having to use a metamagic feat to do something you should be able to do with a skill or should just be part of an appropriate spell.
I'd love to see how many wizard players from past editions still play wizards in PF2 myself. I am surprised my group went from loving wizards for 30 plus years to not touching them with a 10 foot pole in PF2. Wizard was easily one of the most played classes in my group since 1st edition D&D up to 5E and PF1. A few of us tried the wizard out and it felt like some awful, pathetic caster with the name wizard on it, but none of the power or awesomeness of the previous iterations of the wizard. It's the sad faced version of the wizard no one wants to torture themselves playing trying to make it work as well as other classes.
Maybe the majority of wizard players are happy. I don't know. I just know as a player that loved wizards and a group that had another two players that loved wizards, now none of us three touch that class past what we tried early on. The wizard class feels the worst of any of the PF2 caster classes and like one of the worst classes in the game. You don't even get the payoff you used to get at higher level for playing Mr. Weakling Wizard for a lot of levels. You don't feel good at low level, then you keep on feeling behind at nearly every level until maybe 20th I guess. I don't know. None of us can take that weak ride to 20 with the wizard.
It really feels like someone in power at Paizo looked at the wizard and decided it would be a fun exercise to see the fighter on top this edition and the wizard on the bottom. Just for laughs. Wizard was top dog at high level for so long, now he's going to have sit on the bottom tier for this edition I guess.
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Lists don't determine class power. They are important for class role. I'm not sure they would put a power budget on the ability fill different class roles without actually doing more damage and once it's, it is not changing. The ability to pick your spell list allows more build variability without any change to the power level of the class and thus shouldn't have much to do with measuring damage metrics between classes.
The utility belt out of combat is useful. In combat, not so much. During an adventuring day it usually require the Spell Substitution thesis or you're waiting a day unless they perfectly memorized what you need.
The Arcane Sorcerer does have a spellbook they can change out or add one spell per day. So as long as you have sufficient downtime and a spellbook, you can change out some spells.
The Occult Sorcerer can add a mental spell with a 1 minute notice. There are a lot of nice spells with the mental trait.
That's why I said practical purposes. If the wizard doesn't have the right spell in the slot or uses up his daily preparations and bond, then he's done casting that spell for that day. Whereas the sorcerer will have 4 of a given level spell he can cast up to 4 times in any combination as needed then a signature spell per level he can cast with a wide variety of slots.
I've found this makes the sorcerer the more valuable combat caster while an arcane evolution caster given time can change out a spell per day to do poor man's wizard changes.
For the druid I've found wild shape to be incredibly versatile during combat and exploration. Tempest Surge to be the only single target blast I need 99% of the time.
Scroll Savant is nice. Bond Conservation. I like Spell Penetration given the number of creatures with a status bonus to saves against magic at higher level. And their level 20 feats are good.
I do not like having to use a feat for a silent or concealed spell. Wish they had put this in Stealth, Deception, or Arcana as a skill feat. Not a fan of having to use a metamagic feat to do something you should be able to do with a skill or should just be part of an appropriate spell.
I'd love to see how many wizard players from past editions still play wizards in PF2 myself. I am surprised my group went from loving wizards for 30 plus years to not touching them with a 10 foot pole in PF2. Wizard was easily one of the most played classes in my group since 1st edition D&D up to 5E and PF1. A few of us tried the wizard out and it felt like some awful, pathetic caster with the name wizard on it, but none of the power or awesomeness of the previous iterations of the wizard. It's the sad faced version of the wizard no one wants to torture themselves playing trying to make it work as well as other classes.
Maybe the majority of wizard players are happy. I don't know. I just know as a player that loved wizards and a group that had another two players that loved wizards, now none of us three touch that class past what we tried early on. The wizard class feels the worst of any of the PF2 caster classes and like one of the worst classes in the game. You don't even get the payoff you used to get at higher level for playing Mr. Weakling Wizard for a lot of levels. You don't feel good at low level, then you keep on feeling behind at nearly every level until maybe 20th I guess. I don't know. None of us can take that weak ride to 20 with the wizard.
It really feels like someone in power at Paizo looked at the wizard and decided it would be a fun exercise to see the fighter on top this edition and the wizard on the bottom. Just for laughs. Wizard was top dog at high level for so long, now he's going to have sit on the bottom tier for this edition I guess.
I would disagree, since the Bard has both the best proficiencies and focus abilities on top of the best spell list in the game for a spellcaster, with Primal and Druids not too far behind it, largely because it lacks significant debuffing/buffing spells. Again, if pick-a-list is seriously not an issue, then I don't see a reason why every class can't just do so, since apparently spell list options don't matter for class balance. It's quite obvious it's meant to be a balancing point, even if the apparent negligence in design says otherwise.
Spell Substitution is the ultimate Batman Utility Belt. The other theses don't compare, though Spell Blending is still solid for acquiring more higher level spells.
Problem with Arcane Sorcerer is that feat is basically a gold tax to have pseudo-Wizard benefits; it wouldn't be bad if you had a specific spell in mind that you wanted at a certain level in addition to another, or if you wanted multiple signature spells of a given level, but it's otherwise not very potent in being able to prepare anything like a Wizard does. And the Occult Sorcerer being restricted to one Mental-trait based spell once per day isn't particularly compelling unless you build around it, which, while entirely possible, is still quite limiting. There's only a handful of spells with the Mental trait, and several of them either are so good that you'd take them anyway, or they're quite niche and you wouldn't substitute them.
Spell Substitution thesis ensures that you're getting the most out of your spell slots, since the only cost for this is downtime, and if you're still really good at preparing the right spells, the thesis is more of a fail-safe than it is a downtime eater. Spell Blending ensures that you're getting more top tier spell slots compared to anyone else (which are usually the spell slots that matter most in combat), and those spell slots can be anything you prepare, and aren't limited like the Healing Font for example. Sorcerers are largely better due to their focus spells and feats, their casting type is dubious and their flexibility is relatively limited.
Tempest Surge is relatively solid since there are few enemies resistant or immune to electricity damage, and having the damage plus debuff on a failure is potent. Honestly, the only reason I dislike Storm Druids is because their order feats are basically non-existent, and you're forced to either multiclass or dip into a second order. Generally not an issue on its own, but does create complications for Free Archetype games or if you're not wanting to deal with more anathemas.
I've used Scroll Savant to supercharge myself with long duration buffs like Mind Blank, See Invisibility, and Tongues. Doing this all for free is a power that would've cost a Sorcerer 3 slots (or a fair amount of gold in scrolls) each day. Did not use Bond Conservation as it felt too action-intensive for me. In hindsight, it's not a bad feat, given that it lets you cascade your Arcane Bond for more raw spell slots, but it's not extremely effective with repeated use, and requires you have already casted spells for the day. I had Spell Penetration for a while, but it felt way too bland, and all it did was shift the math more in my favor against certain enemies. I wanted my feats to do more, and given that I was neck deep in Rogue dedication feats at the time, I had far better options to pick.
Silent/Concealed Spell is weird on a Wizard, honestly. It's their biggest reason to invest in Dexterity/Charisma, given that they are reliant on Stealth/Deception checks, and since those attributes aren't their primaries, it's not going to be particularly effective against a good amount of threatening enemies. Of course, you might simply want this feat for out-of-combat things with NPCs, but given that Wizards aren't the Charisma-based caster, giving them feats for Charisma-based casters is strange in my opinion.
I've played a Wizard in this edition from 1 to 20 in the Age of Ashes adventure path. There were times where I absolutely dominated and secured us the win with my spells (most powerful moment was using a 6th level Slow spell to trivialize a mini-boss encounter at 19th level). There were other times where I was absolutely useless and basically scrapped for a way to contribute to the combat (this was largely against constructs). There were times my spell choices mattered, and times where it didn't, and there were times where the best spell fizzled out by amazing DM rolls, and times where the not-so-good spell worked out in our favor. I mean, I could definitely say that my class felt far more luck-based than it did skill-based, and that I had a good amount of dedication feats instead of class feats, but it was a functional character. It could have been much more, but I wasn't built for true optimization, and some of the items I acquired or bought were neat, even if a bit problematic given the nature of certain things in that AP.
Compared to how I've seen spellcasters play in PF1, it wasn't that big of a change. Yes, it was less raw spells, and yes, a lot of the power was curtailed and required your higher level slots and a good amount of luck on your side, but honestly, a lot of elements in PF1 felt...clunky, compared to PF2. And that's not even counting Mythic rules.
Really, I just think the spellcasters needed more fine tuning, in regards to feats, spell tradition power, class features, etc. The only issue is that at this point, the cat's already out of the bag. Even getting something as basic as "Wizards are proficient in all simple weapons" is going to be a hard sell, especially because major class rewrites in regards to things like core features (Theses, Schools, etc.) aren't going to happen.
Darksol,
Your experience with casters is much like mine. I don't really mind the up and down nature of casting because it was always originally supposed to be this way, just saves could be skewed so far in favor of the PC in PF1 it didn't seem like it. I think wizard base casting is fine other than not being spontaneous.
As far as Arcane Evolution, it's not as good as Spell Substitution but if you have time it works about as good as other wizards. You don't need to change spells too often. I found a lot of useful mental spells with Occult Evolution that were good for things like Mind Reading or Charming or Dominating as needed. Quality mental trait spells are many. I got a lot of use out that evolution.
I'm glad someone else can see Occult is better than Arcane. Occult is the best spell list in the game with the most variety of very useful spells. Primal is also on par with the Arcane list with what it lacks in mental and illusion stuff being made up for with unique primal spells, healing, condition removal, and good summons. I always scratch my head when someone calls the Arcane list the best when it can fill the fewest roles of any the caster lists. Not that Divine is better as it lacks a ton of blasting, but the Divine and Arcane are the most limited lists in my experience.
Yep. What's done is done. Wizard is stuck where it is. So is the witch probably. I'll mostly avoid those classes. Plenty of other fun options to play until at some point in the future the wizard is returned to some of its former glory.
So far my base experience is as follows:
Bard to 17: Great class, but I do not like being stuck using compositions with the sad eyes of my fellow PCs falling on me when I feel like doing something else. Inspire Courage/Harmonize Dirge of Doom is not fun level after level after level.
Evoker Wizard to 5th: I blew off a fireball for 11 points of damage on 4 targets from a combination of a bad damage roll and good saves. I quit the wizard right there.
Shadow Sorcerer to 16: Pretty entertaining. Charisma based skills are fun. You can easily play the face man in the group and Mr. Scary or Smooth Talker. Occult Evolution is very nice as is Cross-blood evolution. I liked Steal Shadow and Consuming Shadows.
Elemental Sorcerer to 9: Main healer. I like playing a main healer that isn't a cleric or built solely for healing. We used to play with a dedicated healer in PF1 due to the lethality of PF1. We found in PF2 a main healer is not necessary and you better build for something else or you're going to be bored a lot or useless. Someone standing around waiting to heal is not necessary as you level. So a primal sorcerer was easily able to fill the combat healer spot while doing many other things.
Storm/Wild Druid to 17 in Extinction Curse: This really opened my eyes to the druid. So many people underestimate being able to focus on four high value stats when building up your character, but this is huge. I focused on building up Str, Dex, Con, and Wisdom. This allowed for more variety in attacking as you were better at using a weapon. It also helped being able to use a shield for shield blocking which is better than the shield spell and wear armor that didn't require maxed out dexterity for maximum AC. Couple that with a highly useful blasting spell and wild shape with healing and blasting, it made for a very powerful feeling as a caster able to shift from healing to blasting to martial damage as needed.
Two other Storm/Wild Druids to level 11 and level 13. I really enjoy this class combo.
Wizard NPC test to 10: This wizard is using my house rules, so the experience has been better. The wizard is still behind the curve as he only fulfills the one role. He either blasts or debuffs as the Arcane list surprisingly doesn't have the buffs of the Occult list. So far the main thing I like about the wizard is their out of combat utility can be helpful once they build up their spellbook. The wizard takes care of a lot of little things like tongues for communication, magic mailbox, housing while traveling, and can if given time magically interrogate. If you build up crafting, you can make cheap consumables fairly easy and quick.
Cleric of Gorum to level 8: Cleric felt powerful enough, but I don't enjoy the playstyle. Not a big channel smite fan and they are a little soft in frontline combat for a warpriest to stand toe to toe in battle. Some focus spells are decent like Cry of Destruction. But given your slower martial progression, you don't hit near as good. Fighter/Cleric Archetype seems to fill the warpriest roll better if you don't want to channel smite.
I do like the balanced nature of PF2. Much easier to run. A little less fun as a player than PF1, but way more fun as a DM and much easier. The tradeoff works for me. I doubt I'll play a wizard as a main character in this edition until they do something with the feats and schools. They might do a few fixes with additional schools or an unchained book, so I guess I'll wait for that.
I don't play many witches, never did. I have one player that really likes them. So for his sake, I'll hope he gets some improvements.
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I have only played up to level 3, exclusively in Pathfinder Society content so far, which for me personally means: Bounties and Scenarios. In this context, in so far as being a level 3 Cleric Pregen once, and also about 10-12 overall chronicles on my now level 2 Sorcerer: I feel fine about Spellslots. I find it really hard to run out unless I just absolutely gas it and burn them on purpose over and over. Cantrips do a lot of work believe it or not. A lot of work. Also sometimes I do something like: Ancestral Memories: Learn, for example, Religion + Apply bloodline bonus of +1 to that skill, Make a Recall Knowledge Check against the Undead we are fighting, then 1 action left: Hand Crossbow attack. Ez turn, used a focus point, learned what spell to use next turn (reflex save spell, so electric arc)
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Darksol,
Your experience with casters is much like mine. I don't really mind the up and down nature of casting because it was always originally supposed to be this way, just saves could be skewed so far in favor of the PC in PF1 it didn't seem like it. I think wizard base casting is fine other than not being spontaneous.
As far as Arcane Evolution, it's not as good as Spell Substitution but if you have time it works about as good as other wizards. You don't need to change spells too often. I found a lot of useful mental spells with Occult Evolution that were good for things like Mind Reading or Charming or Dominating as needed. Quality mental trait spells are many. I got a lot of use out that evolution.
I'm glad someone else can see Occult is better than Arcane. Occult is the best spell list in the game with the most variety of very useful spells. Primal is also on par with the Arcane list with what it lacks in mental and illusion stuff being made up for with unique primal spells, healing, condition removal, and good summons. I always scratch my head when someone calls the Arcane list the best when it can fill the fewest roles of any the caster lists. Not that Divine is better as it lacks a ton of blasting, but the Divine and Arcane are the most limited lists in my experience.
Yep. What's done is done. Wizard is stuck where it is. So is the witch probably. I'll mostly avoid those classes. Plenty of other fun options to play until at some point in the future the wizard is returned to some of its former glory.
So far my base experience is as follows:
Bard to 17: Great class, but I do not like being stuck using compositions with the sad eyes of my fellow PCs falling on me when I feel like doing something else. Inspire Courage/Harmonize Dirge of Doom is not fun level after level after level.
Evoker Wizard to 5th: I blew off a fireball for 11 points of damage on 4 targets from a combination of a bad damage roll and good saves. I quit the wizard right there.
Shadow Sorcerer to 16: Pretty...
Genuine question, as you said that the Occult spell list is the best in your opinion, but how does it do damage? It doesn't seem to have many if any elemental spells like Fireball/Lightning Bolt/Chain Lightning/Cone of Cold etc. I don't think it has burning hands or horizon thunder sphere.
I like Heroism and I like Synesthesia, but I haven't quite figured out how to use Occult I think.
All this talk about wizards. They seem generally fine.
The witch is a wizard without: scroll savant, drain bonded item, or school spell slots.
Most oracle mysteries/curses are nearly unplayable.
These seem like the problem areas for casters.
And being relegated to the worst Wizard thesis there is. Oh, and having feat taxes in the form of lesson hex feats.
As a caveat to my 1 to 20 venture as a Wizard, I initially started my character as the Familiar thesis with a Bat familiar named Gloomdread. And honestly, having played it up to 8th level, it felt like not having a thesis at all. 90% of the time the familiar was useless or even completely forgotten about, and later in the game, we've had full on animal companions die, meaning the familiar would be dead too. When 9th level came and we had downtime, I was able to retrain to Spell Blending, and had a much more fun time with the class. Also, we would have TPK'd at least twice in that AP past 9th if not for Spell Blending.
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Now all that said, Occult is very good at targeting Will saves, okay at Fortitude, and awful at Reflex. Arcane is the best balanced list in terms of targeting different saves and it's not really close there.
I personally came to the same conclusion, which is why, to me (any my interests [blasting]) Arcane is the best spell list.
Arcane and primal are better for blasting, I doubt many people would debate it.
As much as people say “occult is the best” or “arcane is the best” none of them are actually universally the best.
You have to break spells down into categories in my opinion.
Broadly I’d say these categories look like, I’ve included how I’d rank each list in each category, I’ve been studying spell lists fastidiously and I’ve built characters that specialise in each, but take this with a pinch of salt, I could be very wrong.
Blasting: Arcane > Primal - big gap - Occult >= Divine
Healing: Divine > Primal - big gap - Occult > Arcane
Debuffing: Occult > Arcane - big gap - Divine > Primal
Buffing: Occult >= Arcane - Divine > Primal
Battle field control: Primal >= Arcane > Occult > Divine
Out of combat Utility: Arcane > Occult > Divine > Primal
Also this comes with caveats, like you’ll notice primal arcane is above arcane in battlefield control, but if I was starting at say, level 13 as a battlefield controller, I’d probably pick arcane. At the two levels I think they’ve got better control spells, however at the lowest levels (where I think the lists differences are most noticeable) I think Primal has the edge.
All that said you’ll notice Occult isn’t really the worst at anything, and it is in contention for being the best in buffing, debuffing and utility. Which folks in these boards tend to value quite highly.
Arcane does well in 4 areas but equally is the worst at healing, and it’s probably the single biggest gap across any list, because unlike the others, who’re at the bottom of various other categories, they can still do that thing. Maybe with less variety, probably inefficiently, but they can do it.
Arcane really can’t heal in any real way.
Also these deficiencies can sometimes be filled by focus spells in some cases so the water gets even murkier.
If you wanna focus on blasting with a side of debuffing and buffing Arcane is the best list for you.
If you wanna focus on beating with a side of healing and battlefield control you’re better of going primal,
If you wanna make a flexible caster that buffs, debuffs, controls and can really turn their hand to anything, occults probably the direction to go in.
Arcane's lack of true healing (it has a fair bit of Temp HP and damage mitigation options) is an asset of the tradition for me. I get that it is a limitation, but other players love seeing "heal" on that character sheet and then assume that your primary role as a caster is going to be casting heal every time they get into bad trouble. I have yet to play a level one caster who has heal in their book that didn't only cast that spell for all of level 1 and level 2.
The heal spell is probably too good for its own good.
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...Darksol,
Your experience with casters is much like mine. I don't really mind the up and down nature of casting because it was always originally supposed to be this way, just saves could be skewed so far in favor of the PC in PF1 it didn't seem like it. I think wizard base casting is fine other than not being spontaneous.
As far as Arcane Evolution, it's not as good as Spell Substitution but if you have time it works about as good as other wizards. You don't need to change spells too often. I found a lot of useful mental spells with Occult Evolution that were good for things like Mind Reading or Charming or Dominating as needed. Quality mental trait spells are many. I got a lot of use out that evolution.
I'm glad someone else can see Occult is better than Arcane. Occult is the best spell list in the game with the most variety of very useful spells. Primal is also on par with the Arcane list with what it lacks in mental and illusion stuff being made up for with unique primal spells, healing, condition removal, and good summons. I always scratch my head when someone calls the Arcane list the best when it can fill the fewest roles of any the caster lists. Not that Divine is better as it lacks a ton of blasting, but the Divine and Arcane are the most limited lists in my experience.
Yep. What's done is done. Wizard is stuck where it is. So is the witch probably. I'll mostly avoid those classes. Plenty of other fun options to play until at some point in the future the wizard is returned to some of its former glory.
So far my base experience is as follows:
Bard to 17: Great class, but I do not like being stuck using compositions with the sad eyes of my fellow PCs falling on me when I feel like doing something else. Inspire Courage/Harmonize Dirge of Doom is not fun level after level after level.
Evoker Wizard to 5th: I blew off a fireball for 11 points of damage on 4 targets from a combination of a bad damage roll and good saves. I quit the wizard right there.
I would use Primal or Arcane for blasting. More blasting spells and good sustain damage spells.
Occult is good because it can do a bit of everything. Heal, condition removal, illusions, charms, dominates, mind reading, negative energy damage, buffs like heroism, true strike, magic missile and a few other forced based spells, summons, phantasmal calamity, phantasmal killer, weird. And it has the best debuff in the game with synesthesia. They even surprisingly have teleport.
Occult is not good for energy blasting. It does have some force damage, mental damage, and negative energy damage.
It's a very well rounded list with most of the standard power spells and a few that only they get.
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Now all that said, Occult is very good at targeting Will saves, okay at Fortitude, and awful at Reflex. Arcane is the best balanced list in terms of targeting different saves and it's not really close there.I personally came to the same conclusion, which is why, to me (any my interests [blasting]) Arcane is the best spell list.
I'm not sure what you want to use. But beware the incapacitation spells. Avoid those at all costs unless you know you're going to use them on something weaker.
And look at the value of spell damage dice. It matters how it scales.
Save types alone won't tell you the the value of a spell. You want to look at a variety of factors like damage dice, scaling, four save effects, range and area, riders, and traits. Read the spells close. The one thing I learned playing a wizard is the above factors matter.
As a wizard, I often offer to pay half the cost of magic weapon scrolls to cast on the martial through levels 2 to 4 until the runes start rolling out. They are usually happy to pay the 2 gold and then I will start the encounter with that scroll in my hand, or precast it if possible. Half the problem with that spell in many encounters is that at low levels an electric arc and a 1 action magic missile will probably do more damage than any martial can do and if your martials are decent otherwise, doing the electric arc and magic missile will even do more damage than the magic weapon spell will, because half the combats will be over before they get to attack more than twice with it.
But when you are walking into an encounter that is likely to spiral into 2 or 3 at once, Magic weapon is an incredible spell to cast.
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Arcane is not the better blaster. That is entirely on Primal who has not only the better blasting spells, but also the better focus spells. Not to mention more exclusive blasting spells.
The only good thing about arcane in regards to blasting is that people can poach it for electric arc.
Focus spells are to do with the class not the casting tradition.
What you’re saying is druids and the elemental bloodline sorcerer have good focus spells. Which is not what I’m discussing.
Where is a wild witches amazing blasting centric focus spells? Cause I’m drawing a blank.
Arcane has a huge reservoir of blasting spells to draw from at every level, it has the best blasting cantrip, and it has access to some damage spells that primal doesn’t.
Maybe primal is the over all better blasting tradition”, but “because druids have good focus spells” really is missing the point as far as I’m conscerned.
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As a wizard, I often offer to pay half the cost of magic weapon scrolls to cast on the martial through levels 2 to 4 until the runes start rolling out. They are usually happy to pay the 2 gold and then I will start the encounter with that scroll in my hand, or precast it if possible. Half the problem with that spell in many encounters is that at low levels an electric arc and a 1 action magic missile will probably do more damage than any martial can do and if your martials are decent otherwise, doing the electric arc and magic missile will even do more damage than the magic weapon spell will, because half the combats will be over before they get to attack more than twice with it.
But when you are walking into an encounter that is likely to spiral into 2 or 3 at once, Magic weapon is an incredible spell to cast.
All this does is prove that Electric Arc, Scatter Scree, etc. should be nerfed to only do half of its damage if selecting two targets/areas, because the fact that Electric Arc at 1st level equals the amount of damage that Magic Weapon can deal with D12 weapons is absurd.
Occult's damage isn't as obvious, no.
Spritual Weapon and Sound Burst, Phantom Pain, Grim Tendrils, etc. It has options, just not as many as Primal/Arcane with their broad access to evocation effects across all energy types.
Magic Missile is available and just as good for them.
Blistering Invective is a delightful one, actually - at higher levels you make an entire encounter roll to save against Frightened and persistent fire damage.
Now all that said, Occult is very good at targeting Will saves, okay at Fortitude, and awful at Reflex. Arcane is the best balanced list in terms of targeting different saves and it's not really close there.
The only real benefit to being able to utilize energy effects would be if you wanted to either avoid resistances/immunities, or exploit weaknesses. It's otherwise a 1:1 trade with any other type if no such thing applies, and even that has exceptions (notice Blistering Invective does Fire damage with Frightened; do other spell lists have such a thing? No, not even Primal or Arcane, and they're supposed to be known to deal elemental damage). The best they get is Heat Metal, which targets one creature/object, and doesn't include any aspect of Frightened. It's kind of weaksauce.
The real reason why Occult is so much stronger is because it has exclusive powerful spells, while also poaching some of the best spells from the Arcane/Divine list, to the point that I would much rather play an Occult Wizard than an Arcane Wizard.
Where is a wild witches amazing blasting centric focus spells? Cause I’m drawing a blank.
Primal is only relevant with Patron Skill, Hex Cantrip and Granted Spell. Buzzing Bites and [clinging ice if you reroll damage on sustain] are good basic hex cantrips for primal.
For any blasting witch, elemental betrayal, personal blizzard and glacial heart aren't bad focus spells for blasting [first 2 are 1 action so can be combined with other spells in a round].
All this does is prove that Electric Arc, Scatter Scree, etc. should be nerfed to only do half of its damage if selecting two targets/areas, because the fact that Electric Arc at 1st level equals the amount of damage that Magic Weapon can deal with D12 weapons is absurd.As a wizard, I often offer to pay half the cost of magic weapon scrolls to cast on the martial through levels 2 to 4 until the runes start rolling out. They are usually happy to pay the 2 gold and then I will start the encounter with that scroll in my hand, or precast it if possible. Half the problem with that spell in many encounters is that at low levels an electric arc and a 1 action magic missile will probably do more damage than any martial can do and if your martials are decent otherwise, doing the electric arc and magic missile will even do more damage than the magic weapon spell will, because half the combats will be over before they get to attack more than twice with it.
But when you are walking into an encounter that is likely to spiral into 2 or 3 at once, Magic weapon is an incredible spell to cast.
It is more the action cost of magic weapon being higher to the whole party than people realize. The caster needs to be adjacent to the target when casting the spell which usually means one or the other being in a less than ideal situation at the start of combat. You have to assess whether the combat is going to be worth casting the spell too, so it can mean always staying together, which can limit exploration mode options. Again, there are times where it dominates difficult encounters, but in response to dubious scholar’s claim that it is so obviously advantageous that wizards should just memorize it and nothing else, I don’t find that analysis to be nearly as true as “heal is the best spell to have ready to go when the whole team needs it.”
I think you’d have riots across Golarion at this point if you tried to nerf electric arc. Especially since it moves from primary thing to a decent secondary set of actions by level 5ish.
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One problem I think with this calculus is that it overvalues having a 'lot' of options within a similar wheelhouse. Having five spells that target reflex is only providing marginal improvements over just having one or two, as long as those spells are worth casting.
It's one reason Occult is so appealing, it has more novel options that don't have clear alternatives. It's also why Elemental is so bad, especially for Wizards, because it takes away novel options in favor of more redundant ones (in addition to lots of other issues).
It is more the action cost of magic weapon being higher to the whole party than people realize. The caster needs to be adjacent to the target when casting the spell which usually means one or the other being in a less than ideal situation at the start of combat. You have to assess whether the combat is going to be worth casting the spell too, so it can mean always staying together, which can limit exploration mode options. Again, there are times where it dominates difficult encounters, but in response to dubious scholar’s claim that it is so obviously advantageous that wizards should just memorize it and nothing else, I don’t find that analysis to be nearly as true as “heal is the best spell to have ready to go when the whole team needs it.”
I think you’d have riots across Golarion at this point if you tried to nerf electric arc. Especially since it moves from primary thing to a decent secondary set of actions by level 5ish.
The only point it would "dominate" difficult encounters would be if martial strikes were the only effective way to contribute to the combat. And as it has been proven, Electric Arc does equal damage to Magic Weapon on a D12 weapon making two successful Strikes in a row.
It's better than any other damage cantrip in the game because it "double-dips" on its damage. You almost never see any other damage cantrip being cast because it's the most damage for its actions. Very rarely you'll see Ray of Frost if range is an important factor, or Telekinetic Projectile if you want stronger single target damage (because you don't have a second target to "double-dip" with for Electric Arc), but that's it. Otherwise? Electric Arc/Scatter Scree for days.
The real benefit to cantrips like Electric Arc and Scatter Scree is the ability to damage two creatures at the same time. That shouldn't automatically mean it does twice the amount of damage as any other cantrip that's relegated to D4s, and it certainly shouldn't mean that it does more damage than even D6 cantrips. As for "riots across Golarion," that won't happen for the same reason Wizards won't get fixed. But it does give me an idea for homebrew nerfing to force players to use different spells/cantrips, so there is that.
I'm sorry, how exactly is 2d4+8 equal to 4d12+8? The big advantage electric arc has over the strikes is that it still does damage on a failure, if the weapon is making two successful strikes it's not even close.
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Well keep in mind that of that 4d12+8 only 2d12 of it is coming from the spell, the rest is from the fighter anyways.
That said, only making two attacks total under the effects of magic weapon seems like a worst case scenario.
... And it's a little strange to spend the whole thread complaining about Arcane spellcasters being so much worse than Occult and then conclude Electric Arc is the problem that needs to be gutted.
Making 2 attacks with magic weapon the turn the spell is cast is pretty unlikely in my experience, unless it is a ranged weapon.
Again, I think magic weapon is a very good spell for big mega encounters, but predicting that at the start of an encounter can be difficult too, making it a bit of a gamble to cast magic weapon first thing in an encounter you aren’t sure us going to last 3 rounds.
It is just not as automatic as spell as heal is in my experience.
Also no-one who ever envisioned playing a blaster caster was phantasising about the most effective way for them to contribute being to make the fighters sword, swordier.
Like I get the logic of it’s a level 1 so it’s supposed to contribute more than a cantrip. But then if you think about it, you cast magic weapon once and it’s damage can repeat every turn till the fights over.
For electric arc to stay ahead you have to cast it every turn. So it’s not like it’s a straight wash for the cantrip.
I'm sorry, how exactly is 2d4+8 equal to 4d12+8? The big advantage electric arc has over the strikes is that it still does damage on a failure, if the weapon is making two successful strikes it's not even close.
Because only 2D12 of the damage comes from Magic Weapon.
Well keep in mind that of that 4d12+8 only 2d12 of it is coming from the spell, the rest is from the fighter anyways.
That said, only making two attacks total under the effects of magic weapon seems like a worst case scenario.
... And it's a little strange to spend the whole thread complaining about Arcane spellcasters being so much worse than Occult and then conclude Electric Arc is the problem that needs to be gutted.
Even if we extended it to function past a round or two, we're not factoring in that it's going to be a guaranteed double hit every round either. I just used it as a reference point for a "good" martial round, and it just so happens to equate to a round of casting Electric Arc if they both hit (or they get a lucky Critical).
And yes, one cantrip covers the entire expanse of a given spell tradition, so it's strange to point it out as both an outlier of cantrip balance and as something that is far above and beyond any other damaging cantrip for no reason.
Well keep in mind that of that 4d12+8 only 2d12 of it is coming from the spell, the rest is from the fighter anyways.
That said, only making two attacks total under the effects of magic weapon seems like a worst case scenario.
... And it's a little strange to spend the whole thread complaining about Arcane spellcasters being so much worse than Occult and then conclude Electric Arc is the problem that needs to be gutted.
Even if we extended it to function past a round or two, we're not factoring in that it's going to be a guaranteed double hit every round either. I just used it as a reference point for a "good" martial round, and it just so happens to equate to a round of casting Electric Arc if they both hit (or they get a lucky Critical).
And yes, one cantrip covers the entire expanse of a given spell tradition, so it's strange to point it out as both an outlier of cantrip balance and as something that is far above and beyond any other damaging cantrip for no reason.
Just remember with the Level 3 common item, Jolt Colt, every tradition can have Electric Arc now, even without fiddling with Ancestry feats.
Jolt Colt
Jolt Coil.
Elecric arc gunslinger build found in shambles