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Organized Play Member. 689 posts. No reviews. No lists. No wishlists. 1 Organized Play character.

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Paradozen wrote:
Seems like Sohei Monk is the martial with the best chance at high levels. Pick up weapon training (bows), rapid shot, manyshot, far shot, deadly aim, clustered shots, and a bow with distance and seeking. Also include boots of speed. Round one you have a chance of winning initiative, and can unleash 11 attacks before the caster can act. Add brilliant energy to the enhancements and you might get through Emergency Force Shield (though I doubt that is on the prd, and thus is legal). Of course, while it has the best chance of working at level 20, it still will probably be faced with the problem of the caster having survived (akashic form, greater possession, clone in a bag of holding, bad luck, facing a caster with a lot of HP, etc).

Emergency force sphere is not in the PRD.

Fickle winds is, and will nullify the whole sohei build past the first attack using PRD only (which is a common strategy for a 20th level PRD-only wizard).

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Xaimum Mafire wrote:
Call Truce just means that you guys stop trying to kill each other for a second and talk. And why do you think a Wizard would have all of these contingencies that a TIMELESS BEING would both be unaware of and unable to prepare for? And that wizard would have to take to figure out exactly what happened

It is easy to know what happened : a rogue managed to get through the room unarmed, so the outsider didn't do its job.

The wizard decides to make an example of this outsider, calls it and utterly destroy it.

All of this is pretty simple to understand. Having such a wizard as an enemy is very dangerous, and having him as a friend is a blessing.

I'm assuming that you meant Diplomacy, not Stealth.

No, I meant Stealth, as you have to be in plain sight to affect people with your feat.

On one side, if you win the check, affected creatures will stop fighting.

On the other side, unaffected creatures (which may well be in the same room) will be aware of your presence automatically and attack you.

And the worst thing is that if you draw a weapon/wand/... to fight back, not only the affected creatures won't help you, but the effect from the feat will be uneffective and they will also attack you.

I even forgot you have to use a full round to activate the feat. This means that you are on the open, for 1 full round, and enemies have that whole round to attack you if they want (just as with 1 round spellcasting, the effects start on the start of your next round).

Noting that we're talking about bound outsiders, but a level 20 rogue a 7 WIS can still have +21 to Sense Motive and automatically recognize a simulacrum, anyway.

It doesn't matter if you recognize them or not.

If the affected creatures are not alone, your whole plan goes down.

Assuming that the Wizard has 14 Con, max hit dice, and has Toughness, there's no way a Rogue could do 160 damage in one round?

Assuming a standard wizard with no toughness and assuming standard spells and magic items, I'm finding more like 223hp (72 base + 100 con + 20 favored + 31 greater false life).

Then, the wizard has his contingency, his long last buffs, etc...

Finally, the first round, it is very unlikely the rogue will do a full attack. He has very little chance to do a full sneak attack.

Accounting for to-hit chance, defense spell(s), damage per successful attack, etc... I guess doing more than 200hp damage is pretty damn difficult for a rogue.

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Call Truce

You forgot something important :

Special: If the parley would inherently result in the opponents surrendering or losing, if the opponents are mind-controlled or fanatics, or if there are other appropriate circumstances at the GM's discretion, you might not be able to use this feat.

I guess that betraying a wizard with the means to escape, call you again and permanently destroy your very essence is similar to losing.

I guess that having accepted a contract through Planar binding is similar enough to mind controlled to at least give a bonus to the DC (if not just forbid the check).

I guess that 35% chance of failure when you forgoe any stealth attempt is a risk high enough to make this strategy dangerous.

Noting that it won't affect simulacrums (they are under absolute control of the caster) and many other minions.

And all of that would be better to use and way more reliable than trying to bind high-level outsiders for the sole purpose of a killing a single rogue.

A 20th level wizard doesn't need those to kill a rogue (even a 20th level rogue).

A wizard needs 6 seconds. And too bad, a rogue can't kill a wizard in those 6 seconds.

Bound outsiders are for real threats, or when you want to do something of great importance (or protect your base from those threats).

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Quintain wrote:
All devils have their own names. Finding out which ones are being called is a matter of espionage.

And yet, knowing an information that no one in the multiverse knows is impossible.

Even the use of a "know the future" spell will be impossible (because the answer is ofter "Yes" or "No", not "The devil Apfqlmqoznqmalna will be the one randomly called the 10th of this month by Joe-the-wizard").

So no, no one (not even the wizard) will know which unique devil will be called, unless the wizard use a true name (which he can, and probably will if he manages to be friends with an outsider).

Unlikely, given it's instantaneous nature. As far as he knows, a contingency with no visible effects just went off.

But contingency can't be cast by the outsider and on the outsider.

So, even in the miracle that you manage to find which outsider will be called and manage to make friends with that outsider before the call, it won't be of use.

For the record, nothing prevents the wizard to add a Mind blank/mage's private sanctum/... to its list of spells to cast when he call an outsider.

If Wish is banned, then I would stipulate that limited wish is as well. And if it is not, limited wish would do just as well to accomplish what needs to happen.

Honestly, wish is of no importance. The rogue will use a scroll, which doesn't have a component.

I don't see that in the details. Moreover, divination can determine the next one that the wizard calls to narrow down the options. You guys seem awful ready to stipulate details that for some odd reason are favoring the wizard despite the fact that he is all knowing and all powerful -- and eager to gloss over details that may show a chink in his armor.

Divination can do a lot of things, but they can't be precise enough to do what you want it to do.

Contact other planes, which is one of the most powerful divination of the game, can provide answer like "Yes, No, Maybe, ...".

Nothing in the game can do what you want to do with it. Otherwise, the wizard would know you want to do that too (if you are allowed open and clear answers, there are no reasons the wizard isn't allowed too, and he can aks if someone will interfere with his calling and how).

So, wait, the Wizard can call and bind npc allies, but the rogue can't use diplomatic skills to subvert said allies?

I don't have a problem with it personnaly.

Remember though that the wizard too can use diplomatic skills with said npcs, and he can be amazingly good at it (even moreso if he invests skill ranks in diplomacy, which wouldn't be a huge sacrifice for his 12 skill ranks per level).

And the wizard doesn't need to buy a bunch of scrolls just to be able to talk to them, as he is able to move through planes and between planes easily (and for free).

You should also remember that a reward/offer can be in gold/items, but also in help or services.

Wish can't be used. By agreement. If the rogue can't use it, the wizard can't wither. There isn't much a wizard can give an outsider that the outsider doesn't already have other than not constantly being called by a mortal to play rent-a-cop.

Wish is one of the weakest 9th level spell. Why would a wizard use it to fulfill a demand of an outsider ?

You can already do pretty much anything Wish can do (except +X to attribute) with your other spells, without having to spend 25000gp everytime.

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Quintain wrote:

For a wizard, you don't know your own spells?

Upon being called, a contingency sending to the rogue with the word "now" executes on the outsider, which the rogue follows up with a Discern Location on the outsider.

First, how did the rogue find that specific outsider ?

Second, Contingency is a personal only spell, how do the outsider has it ?

Third, you will need a very high UMD to cast Discern location reliably.

Then, nothing says the wizard will call the same outsider twice, and nothing says the outsider has any blame against the wizard to accept such thing (and risk the wrath of the wizard to boot).

Now you know where he is.. and you know that the location is not protected against planar transportation.

Even if you know the location of the plane where the wizard called the outsider (and honestly, it's very unlikely), this plane is one of the numerous that the wizard has.

It doesn't mean that it is the main plane of the wizard (it would be stupid).

For example, a "simple" chain of planes :
1 - Material plane - Wizard's tower, linked to 2
2 - Permanent Demi plane - Front porch, linked to 1 and 3.
3 - Permanent Demi plane - Dead plane with outsiders, linked to 2, 4 and 5.
4 - Demi plane - Trapped the way you want, linked to 2.
5 - Permanent demi plane - Hall of security, linked to 3 and 6
6 - Main plane of the wizard.

The wizard will call the outsiders in the plane 2, then take the portal to go to plane 3.

The plane 4 can be trapped how you want. For example with a dead magic + fire energy plane, to inflict a lot of damage, eventually even killing him.

The plane 5 will be very high in defense while still preventing anything from going through. I'm pretty sure I'm able to make a plane 5 that is not possible to break through.

Alternatively, the wizard can simply create a demiplane and be sure no one except himself know about it. Being protected against mind reading and discern locations, nothing but a god will be able to know its existence.

Because the rogue isn't yanking the outsider from their own plane against their will and enslaving them. This pretty much immediately puts the rogue on better negotiating footing...especially since the success of the rogue would ensure that the outsider won't be called by that particular wizard ever again.

You expect the wizard to be a dick with called outsiders, while it's the worse way you could deal with it. You even seem to believe that a couple days means a lot in the lifetime of an outsider, and that a wizard can't provide anything to him (while the rule itself provides such rewards.

If the wizard really treat its called outsiders badly (which is very stupid IMO), it would be much better to just kill them afterwards.
Leaving an powerful influential outsider with ill-intent the possibility for a revenge is way more dangerous.

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Bob Bob Bob wrote:

So, I just meant flippant in that the exact numbers and type weren't chosen carefully. It's not like 18 wouldn't be enough, or that you couldn't summon 21 instead. Ice Devils get the same regeneration, but pretty much any other 20 CR 16+ would murder the Rogue just as hard (just without being literally unkillable). It wasn't a "serious" suggestion in that the actual numbers and monsters didn't matter. Just the "Wizard summons a horde of big beefy monsters, forces Rogue to fight them on a dead magic plane".

We've actually been using several different Wizards. Unfortunately, Schrodinger's Wizard is absolutely appropriate here. The enemy Wizard will have one very specific build. The Rogue's only going to find out what that is when they open the box. So we have to throw out any hypothetical Wizards they might fight, otherwise when they encounter one of them they won't be prepared to fight.

And there is a lot less "possible rogues" than "possible wizards".

Especially when the wizard can change his whole prepared list every day.

But seriously, even finding the wizard in the first place is probably beyond the power of most mortal creatures.

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Quintain wrote:
Initially, the binding allows for a Will saving throw. A planetar has a will save of +19, A DC 30 save isn't exactly insurmountable. This is not including it's spellcasting abilities.

DC 27 actually (10 + 8 spell + 9 intelligence).

And I accounted for it in my list of examples.

Moreover, the protective aura of All angel subtypes includes a "magic circle vs evil which prevents compulsion (mental control).

As said by other, it doesn't prevent neutral source of mental compulsion.

However, Planar binding isn't a compulsion, so even an evil wizard can call an angel and bind it.

So, you are down to doing the whole bargaining for cooperation bit. Which may be a charisma check that the wizard can easily make given additional spells, but even then the Planetar is a caster as well, and should have buffs running as much as any prepared PC.

Fair enough. The "standard" spell list doesn't include any buff that last more than a couple minutes however. At best, we're looking at +2 to its charisma modifier, but that won't be a game changer.

We will suppose the nature of the service is opposed to the outsider but not impossible or unreasonnable (+6 to the outsider's opposed charisma roll), and the wizard will not offer any rewards (+0 to the wizard's opposed charisma roll).

If this is the case, that is perfect. It plays right into my tactic. Now, here's where the lawyer in me says you need to write out the terms of this planar binding's service.

This is where the great weakness of the planar binding spells exist. Unless you cover every eventuality, the rogue will be able to essentially bypass these "guards" via diplomacy.

Except that I implied those modifiers in order to have the worst possible chance for the wizard. In a real negociation, the wizard will offer rewards (which may or may not cost money), and will ask things that are well received by its target.

You know, when you don't want your favorite(s) outsider(s) to pursue you afterwards, or even better, when you want to have more than magical binds between you and the outsider.

And then, i wonder how the rogue will know how to find the loopholes in a contract established by an entity with at least 29 intelligence prepared for as long as he needed to prevent such loopholes.

See the other problem is you have to fight the wizard completely on his terms he gets to choose where the fight is and the weapon not many people can win in that situation. why is it the mage doesn't have to come after the rogue (then its a stalemate right?) or a neutral ground instead of the wizards fortress a giant arena both combatants come in unprepared for the other one and go at it (much fairer then infinitely prepared mage with infinite resources)

Honestly, it is even worse for the rogue if he was the prey and not the hunter. Unlike the wizard, he wouldn't have any clue as to when the wizard would attack (so, probably no buff). And nothing the rogue could have would prevent a wizard from obliterating him (and his house).

An neutral arena/fortress would be different, but even then, the wizard will probably be victorious.

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Quintain wrote:
Yeah, that's kind of what I meant about the hand-waving. Granted that resisting the spell is largely a moot point, but preventing reinforcements that will free them would be a sticking point. So a "bargain" that is agreed upon would by necessity be very short in description. That in and of itself would allow for some pretty large loopholes.

It depends.

Feeling something is wrong is not the same as knowing someone tried to call you from another plane.

And finding said wizard is not that easy if he protects himself with Mind blank.

On the other side, trying to rescue the planetar once called can be tricky, as the planetar may have to fight its own allies (or command them to go away), depending on the deal made during Planar binding.

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Quintain wrote:

Magehunter: thanks

Ok, looking at the planar binding spell line: Wizards are an Int based class. How many have the charisma that are sufficient to overcome the opposed charisma checks of these extraplanar creatures?

I don't know... maybe that spell can help a lot ?

Let's "simulate" a call.

The standard human wizard (10/14/14/16/10/10 pre racial, with everything put in intelligence) will try to call an outsider. This wizard is at level 20 at 10/20/20/29/10/10.

Before casting greater planar binding, he will cast Magic circle against Evil (or other appropriate Magic circle) in the form of a diagram. Having +32 in spellcraft (20 ranks +3 class + 9 inte), he has no problem doing it. The called outsider will have to win a charisma check DC 30. As it is a attribute check, there is no auto success even with a natural 20.

The wizard then casts Moment of Prescience (+20 at one D20 roll, lasts 20 hours) and Eagle splendor (+4 charisma for 20 minutes). He then casts Dimensional anchor and Planar binding greater (DC 27).

We will suppose the nature of the service is opposed to the outsider but not impossible or unreasonnable (+6 to the outsider's opposed charisma roll), and the wizard will not offer any rewards (+0 to the wizard's opposed charisma roll).

Now, let's see what are the chances for a wizard to bind an outsider.

Elder earth elemental : 80% chance of being summoned (will save 1d20+10 DC 27), no chance of escape (1d20 DC 30), 97.5% chance of winning the opposed charisma roll (1d20+6 vs 1d20+22)

Ice devil : 70% chance of being summoned (will save 1d20+12 DC 27), no chance of escape (1d20+5 vs DC 30), 88.75% chance of winning the opposed charisma roll (1d20+11 vs 1d20+22)

Horned devil : 65% chance of being summoned (will save 1d20+13 DC 27), no chance of escape (1d20+6 vs DC 30), 86.25% chance of winning the opposed charisma roll (1d20+12 vs 1d20+22).

Planetar : 35% chance of being summoned (will save 1d20+19 DC 27), no chance of escape (1d20+7 DC 30), 83.5% chance of winning the opposed charisma roll (1d20+13 vs 1d20+22).

All supposing a standard wizard with no specialization, no wish factory, no borderline trick and using core rulebook only.

Are extraplanar entities subject to dismissal/banishment?

Yes, they are. Any entity that is outside its own plane can be dismissed or banished.

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Honestly, i don't see how AMF will help the rogue kill the wizard. In fact, i believe that it is way more dangerous for the rogue than for the wizard.

Why ? Because once the AMF is cast, the rogue will lose a great deal of her power, while the wizard just have to move 15ft to get away (and with Overland flight cast a few hours ago, it's easy).

On the other side, undeads and called creatures are not harmed at all by the AMF for their "martial prowess", and I dare any rogue to fight a single ice devil without any magic items (I won't even write about Horned devils or greater devils, demons or angels).

Or the wizard can cast a quickened prismatic wall and cast whatever she wants to obliterate the rogue with what's left (prismatic wall is unaffected by AMF).

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Ascalaphus wrote:
Tomos wrote:

The problem is not the dagger.

The difficulty that you're having as GM is due to the fact that you're trying to challenge PCs with obstacles that are totally outmatched by their equipment and skill.
This. A locked chest is a challenge at low levels; not at whatever much higher level they are now.

A locked chest is never a challenge. Period.

The same for a locked door.

The challenge will come from other things, such as opening the door or the chest quickly and/or silently, while being chased by opponents or things like that.

If the whole challenge is opening a door (or a chest) without anything else, power attacking the door (or the lock) will open it even at first level.

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Boomerang Nebula wrote:

Interesting points.

From a flavour point of view it makes perfect sense to me. Spell casting is using magic, it shouldn't be too predictable otherwise it becomes too much like a science.

I don't think it will play the way you expect. The player does not know how long their magic has to last, they can't game the system and plan for their spells to last x number of encounters. There will be no leaving the table, the player just has to hope the magic will come back soon. I've played in games where magic is fickle and it works very well, Wizards become richer characters, not just magical Swiss army knives with a spell for every occasion. That is what is boring for me, having every interesting situation made trivial by the wizard because they have just the right spell.

The not knowing brings in an extra element of tension, which can make the game exciting. Also since the GM rolls in secret they can bring the magic back early if it fits the story and the players need never know!

Your houserule could be sumed up in one sentence : the DM decides if and when the caster are allowed to cast spells.

That is just one of the worst and least fun houserules i've seen in all my gaming experience (which is nearly 15 years).

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DM_Blake wrote:
alexd1976 wrote:
In my games, you can sometimes use Charm Person to sneak into a town after hours.

The problem isn't necessarily the narrative of a PC hero sneaking into a town by charming the guard and walking through the gate. Or even the similar of a villain using the same trick to get into town and do some nefarious stuff.

The real problem, for me, is the verisimilitude of the entire game if you take it to its logical conclusion:

The same low-level guy who sneaks through a gate by charming the guard could also walk into any store in town and charm the merchant. "Hey, good buddy, you look tired. Worn out. You know I"m your best friend and I worry about you. Why don't you take the afternoon off and I will watch your store for you. I'll handle your business, take care of your customers, because I care about you. So have a nice afternoon!" And now that low-level wizard loads up his bag of holding with as much merchandise as he wants and destroys his WBL value.

No big deal. One guy getting rich (maybe that was a gem shop) isn't world-breaking.

But let's not forget that the merchant is now out of business, his merchandise stolen, his loans unpaid and now unpayable. Still not a big deal.

Indeed, not a big deal. The merchant will now get to the local merchant guild, a few hours later, and will ask for payback from the douchebag who stole from him, in addition to the law enforcement and his friends.

With little help from magic, they will find the one that dared to do that, and make an example of him in plain sight.

Now, no one will ever dare to do that again. EVER.

It's wonderful how most people forget that a world should all have something incredible : consistency.

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DM_Blake wrote:

I can never plug this book enough.

You can solve all your demiplane questions, as well as all your plane questions, deity questions, and magic questions, by picking up a copy of The Primal Order.

No GM should run a game without this book.

Could you quote a few things from that book that could help answer my question please ?

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I should add that in 3.0 and 3.5, you needed explicitly to see the somatic component and/or hear the verbal component to be able to identify the spell.

here : http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/spellcraft.htm

Identify a spell being cast. (You must see or hear the spell’s verbal or somatic components.) No action required. No retry.

In pathfinder, the sentence have been changed to "Identifying a spell as it is being cast requires no action, but you must be able to clearly see the spell as it is being cast, and this incurs the same penalties as a Perception skill check due to distance, poor conditions, and other factors."

I don't know why they changed the wording : it only makes spells way harder to identify.

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Counterspell is very hard to pull off in Pathfinder.

First, you need to prepare an action to do it. If the enemy caster do something else (using a magic item, a spell-like ability, etc...), you've wasted your turn.

Then, you need to identify the enemy spell. It's somewhat easy for a wizard (well, beyond the first couple levels anyway), but may be much harder for a cleric, a druid or a sorcerer (because they have low INT and not always the skill points to have full skill ranks in spellcraft).

If you did prepare an action to counter the enemy spellcaster, that this enemy actually did cast a spell and you managed to identify that spell, you still have several ways to waste your action :

  • You need either the exact spell or dispel magic. If you don't, you're done. There are some rare exceptions (haste and slow, light spells against darkness spells, ...).
  • If you try with dispel magic, you need to do a caster level check and reach a DC of 11+caster level of the enemy. It means that against a guy of your level, you have 50% chance of countering the spell and 50% chance of wasting your turn AND a dispel magic spell.
  • You need to be in range of the enemy spell. If the enemy cast a personal spell, you're done. If the enemy cast a touch spell and you're not at touch range, you're done.
  • The wording of the counterspells in the magic Chapter may implies you need to be able to target the enemy spellcaster when readying your action. Which means that if the caster is invisible, you're done (because you can't target him).

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Rhedyn wrote:

My check clearly outlined how my profession is applicable.

If you wish to ignore that well reasoned in-depth legal argument, then I will appeal to a higher court!

You didn't roll high enough, sorry.

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Rhedyn wrote:
Avh wrote:
Barrister is not an applicable craft or profession skill to craft a wondrous item, except maybe a very specific item related to this profession.

*rolls profession(Barrister) check*

Well I guess it turns out that ALL items are applicable with my profession. And if you don't like it, you are not letting me play my character, thus are a wrongbadfun GM!


According to RAW, no items are linked to Profession (barrister). If you don't like it, you are not letting me play my GM role, thus are a wrongbadfun player!

See ? It works that way too.

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Orfamay Quest wrote:
Perhaps you should consider what it means that the adventure you describe is widely considered to be even less fun than teleporting between encounters. What does that say about the fun level in your game?

That's not really fair here.

He is obviously having fun his way, and his players too. Let's just say that it is not our way of playing Pathfinder.

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Of course, you could sneak up on the creature while they sleep. But then you're left staring at the guy for 18 seconds, in bright (well, normal) light, like a really weird creeper from a bad stalker movie.

Or use a coup de grace attack, that doesn't need Assassin levels and have way more chance to kill its target.

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BigDTBone wrote:
Custom items are most certainly RAW

Each custom items are to be adjudicated by the DM. Autorizing one or another would then not be so objective.

There are no RAW ways of knowing if a custom item should be valid or not.

Moreover, custom items are much more easy to get for the wizard, as she can craft them herself.

leadership us a feat (a resource that a fighter affords more easily than anyone else)

Fighters do not have more feats than anyone else, they have more COMBAT feats. That's different.

Leadership suffers the same limitations as custom items for the fact of determining if a cohort is "legal" or not.
You can make a search on this website to know the number of topics this subject provoked BTW.

and archmage has several benefits that work perfectly well.

If you ignore the fact that arcane surge spells are tied to your own CL, it might work. The fact is, they are actually using your own, so you can't even cast a lvl 1 spell with it (you can't cast a spell if you don't have a high enough CL, even if you have the slots).

And you weren't even forbidden from taking Archimage (neither in the first version or in the last).

But most importantly, all those options were nixed after the rules were posted.

Leadership was banned right at the start if I recall.

Custom items should be banned for the sole fact that you can't have 2 DMs that would have the same opinions on several custom items.

Why should someone continue to bang their head against the wall? What else was Andreww going to ban after it got brought up? Literally 3 options in 3 days got shut down. There was no good-faith contest, and we shouldn't be acting like there was one.

That's not true.

Because my "legal" build according to Andreww wasn't legal. The AC and Save items (purchased directly by the price on the chart) were banned as custom items.

I didn't notice your +4 luck/+4 insight bonus to AC items, amongst other things.

So, actually, none of the fighter builds in this topic were legal. The situation is even worse than I expected.

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Ian Wilson 67 wrote:

Well, you guys are all looking at the Assassin in relation to all the classes, Back when the Core Rulebook was the only thing for players, it was a decent class. But when they added the new classes, such as Slayer and Ninja. It rapidly fell behind.

The one way that I can see it being decent, is if you are playing a Core Rulebook only game, which some DMs do.

Except that this isn't true.

Rogue are better when not selecting Assassin than when taking Assassin levels.

Be it with or without books outside CRB.

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Mathius wrote:
Tactics matter always. A first level commoner can beat a wizard if wizard removes all spells and goes to sleep inside a AMZ. A wizard does not need to rely on the fighter's mistakes to win but undetectable means he is hard to deal with if he will not engage the wizard.

That's where you're making your biggest mistake.

A high level wizard is not powerful because she has powerful spells, but because she knows everything.

A high level wizard knows her enemies, including strengths and weaknesses.

A high level wizard knows the future.

There are absolutly no possibility that a high level wizard die by the hand of a first level commoner, except by accepting it volontarily. And I mean 0% chance, not a really reaaaaaaally low chance.

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Buri Reborn wrote:
Avh wrote:

It isn't house rules.

Check here.

WBL is not affected by mythic tiers.

So, a 20th level Fighter, mythic or not, should have 20th level WBL.
In the rules, that is 880 000 gp my friend.

It is affected by point-buy.

Wealth By Level wrote:
Low-fantasy games might award only half this value, while high-fantasy games might double the value.
Take "might" as you will, but there's the case for it. Now, take any source of crafting and you can easily appear to have 3x normal WBL.

Yes, Point buy "Might" affect it.

Neither should nor will, only might; but at least it's written somewhere in the rules. You should know that will increase both the Fighter and the wizard WBL, as they are both created with the same Point buy though.

I also know that Magic item creation feats should increase WBL (+25% for one, +50% if you have 2 or more).

But I didn't find anywhere in the rules the possible modification of WBL from Mythic rules.
And actually, nothing in the mythic encounters show any improvements of treasure that could lead to better WBL than expected for someone of your level.

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Cuuniyevo wrote:

That's hardly a fair assessment, CWheezy, as there are multiple fighter builds already posted in this thread, and Anzyr's has not been publicized. As an observer, I am disappointed that none of the people with martials let us know that they couldn't make the deadline (last I heard they would by ready by Thursday? what happened?). I was assuming it was being handled, or I would have been willing to put up a build of my own, just for fun. That being said, I do not support trash-talking from either side, and it is my position that either side could have won, with a little luck on their side.

Anyway, since andreww's bowed out in disgust (I don't blame him), anyone actually interested in putting their fighter forwards will need to find a new 'neutral' GM.

There have been 4 builds in this thread.

2 by Marroar Gellentera (Griffith page 1, and Hawkman page 4). The first is illegal from way too much gold, the second isn't mythic.

1 by BigDTBone (Mythic Johnny Bowman page 3), and BigDTBone said himself, I quote : "Built for one purpose: defeat Cthulhu. Runs at the site of 17th level wizards (and still dies.)".

1 by Bradley Mickle (Unnamed Hero page 4), that have much more WBL than allowed.

That's it. There are no more builds from page 4 to 25 (there was a troll by Lemmy, the "Strongest Fighter ever", that is Fighter 1/wizard 19, without a build at page 6, but that isn't a fighter and doesn't have a build).

So no, not even 1 legal mythic fighter build has been posted in this thread. Andreww wrote that there has not been any that has been sent to him.

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Rhedyn wrote:
Avh wrote:
It isn't house rules.
Oh but it is. It is a perfectly fair rule for a contest. But thinking mythic as epics doesn't affect WBL RAW is nonsense.

Quote even one rule that could suggest you should have more WBL than a 20th level character, and I would agree with you.

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Rhedyn wrote:
Avh wrote:
Rhedyn wrote:
Avh wrote:
Rhedyn wrote:
Avh wrote:
And none that I saw in that topic was legal.
Wow no.

Quote one that is legal, please.

And even if such build exists, none has been sent to Andreww.

All of them.

I do not know what sort of BS standard of Legal you are throwing around. This one, I posted on the first page of that thread.

And no, I have no intention of running it in andrew's contest.

It is illegal, because it has over 3 times the standard wealth for a 20th level character.

I won't even go to the "Leadership", or to the "Not immune to blablablah".

Just plain : reduce it to 880 000 gp and then we can start talking.

Nice house-rules.

It isn't house rules.

Check here.

WBL is not affected by mythic tiers.

So, a 20th level Fighter, mythic or not, should have 20th level WBL.
In the rules, that is 880 000 gp my friend.

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Rhedyn wrote:
137ben wrote:

It's ironic, because in the previous thread, there were several people insisting that mythic fighters would win by default because no one had presented a wizard build.

Turns out those people were hypocrites, because they didn't have fighter builds either.

Actually if you read that thread many many fighter builds were posted in full detail.

No one was willing to run those fighters in this contest or make new fighters for this contest.

And none that I saw in that topic was legal.

Moreover, none were sent to Andreww. Not one, not even one with mistakes.

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Rhedyn wrote:
andreww wrote:
The deadline has now closed. I have received two wizards and no martials. I declare Wizard victory by default. Feel free to continue the mad argument amongst yourselves, I am done with it.


No really?
Things legal:
Sacred Geometry
Snow-cone wish machines
Non-PRD content
Blood money

Except that none of those are required to be effective as a wizard... ^^


Things illegal:

Fighter Archmage

Leadership is illegal because if you take a level 17 wizard as a cohort, then you're more likely comparing a lvl 17 wizard to a level 20 wizard, not a level 20/tier 10 mythic fighter to a level 20 wizard.

Fighter Archmage is not banned (actually, most of those who argued in the other topic wanted to take Archmage or similar). It's just proving that in order to be as effective as a wizard, you need wizard spells.


The fact that there was no fighter at all is significant, and somewhat proves that no one could build a 20th fighter with 10 mythic ranks that could be protected against the few examples of what a 20th level wizard could do.

No less, no more.

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Cuuniyevo wrote:
Eh? I thought there were 3 people in line for the martial slot in the fight. Where'd they go? o_0

Schrodinger's fighter !

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andreww wrote:
The deadline has now closed. I have received two wizards and no martials. I declare Wizard victory by default. Feel free to continue the mad argument amongst yourselves, I am done with it.

Are you serious ? No fighter ?

What a shame.

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So, as a ninja/assassin 5/1, you need :

- 3 rounds of observation
- to be very close to your target (5 to 10 ft), before the surprise round, without being seen by your target.
- not to be detected by other means (Detect Magic, ...)
- to hit your target, which can be hard, because you have crappy BAB (+3 at 6, which is the same as a wizard), 4 high stats minimum (DEX, CON, INT, CHA, and possibly STR too, which means maybe a 14 in INT and/or DEX)
- to trigger a sneak attack (enemy not immune, environment not preventing it, enemy not immune to surprise, ...)
- to use it against an enemy that has a low Fortitude save.

You will hit less than half the time, and your target will probably pass your fortitude check 85% of the time (if fortitude is high) or 65% of the time (if fortitude is low).

Yes, even with all your time taken, the risks you take and targetting the perfect target (an unprepared wizard all alone for example), you will manage to kill that target less than 1 time out of 6 (1 to 2 time out of 20 against a bad target). And if you don't kill your target with that attack, you are killed (low HP, low Fortitude, low Will, low AC), meaning you won't reach level 7.

And that's assuming you actually reached level 6, because with a crappy AC (14 DEX remember) and awful fortitude/will saves, you are very unlikely to reach even that level.

Conclusion : Assassins are not useless, they're just plain worse than full rogue or ninja, and those are already in the bottom tier of builds...

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Jodokai wrote:

I've been snarky in this thread, no excuses, I apologize.

My point is really that good characters have the same worries. They kill the evil tyrant, and the evil tyrant has relatives. This doesn't make for a bad game, it can add flavor, and if the GM doesn't like it, he doesn't let it happen.

Which leads to what I wrote in my first post : "taking the spellbook of a wizard isn't a very good reason."

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Marroar Gellantara wrote:

Read this feat again and tell me all "PF material" should be the assumed default standard.

It is also entirely possible for be people to act in different capacities at different times.

It comes from an official Pathfinder book, and is written by 2 of the lead designers of Pathfinder : Jason Bulmahn and James Jacobs.

EDIT : whatever, I wrote something wrong. I mixed Occult Adventures with Occult Mysteries.

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Adept_Woodwright wrote:

Ah. I stopped at the point where they act as Antimagic Fields.

I apologize for upsetting you... I think I'm going to take a break from this forum for a while.

Apparently I've gotten too hasty with posts because of the speed of this forum, and the quality is degrading. I am actually sincerely apologetic.


I don't care what the wizard does. He can get 100000 every day: it doesn't matter. He *already* completely blew WBL expectation out of the water.


Yeah, Im done for now

What I wrote wasn't directed at you specifically, but some people on this thread made a huge number of false ideas about some spells, and even showing them the rule doesn't change their minds.

And with the repetition for a thousand posts, it can be very very annoying to repeat the same and the same again and again.

If I did upset you in any way, that wasn't my goal and I would apologize.

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johnnythexxxiv wrote:
Avh wrote:
Roan wrote:
Adept_Woodwright wrote:

Oh, and Roan. Mythic Paragon ups that to 15 HD. Seriously, Mythic Cloudkill is great. Unfortunately, its not given by Divine Source, and I don't know another Rules given way to get it so we can take it as Mythic.

Construct Domain gives limited Wish. Mythic Spellcasting can make that Mythic Limited Wish, which can duplicate Mythic Wizard/Sorcerer spells 6th level and below.

I have done my homework this time :)

You don't know the spell nor can cast the spell.

You have SLA, and I don't believe it should be enough. But whatever.

The whole point of this thread was to know if a no-class level 20 with 10 mythic tiers could do something against a wizard 20.

The answer is maybe.

And I insist on "no-class", because the "fighter" part of the character contributes to nothing that the character does. (Yes, you can check the whole 1000+ posts, there are litterally nothing coming from the fighter, everything comes from the Mythic tiers).

Yes, this topic has achieved the fact of proving that the fighter can't contribute in any way against a high level wizard.

I disagree, people have posted enough about the fighters that it's clear that they intend to defeat the Wizard through physical combat. Large numbers of feats, the Unbreakable fighter archetype and high damage are all things mentioned that lead to the fighter class quite easily.

Large physical damage can come from anything. A commoner could do the same : you just need high strength + power attack to do that.

The unbreakable fighter is just a way to spare a mythic path ability, not a critical thing needed to defeat the wizard.

Again : nowhere in the topic you will get mention of fighter only things. You won't even see a huge number of feat, or absurdly high damage. You will just find enough damage to kill a 20th level wizard, which is easy for any character to achieve.

The mythic "fighter" in this thread uses at least one of those :
- Leadership to get a 17th wizard buddy.
- Mythic abilities to be able to cast spells/create items more or less as a 17th caster

And the non-mythic wizard is supposed to be limited in at least several of those ways :
- Not knowing anything about the fighter by skills or spells (no, undetectable does not prevent you from knowing things about the fighter, just the position of the fighter). Knowledge is about 50% of the power of a wizard, in my opinion. Knowing who you fight and what that enemy can do and is vulnerable to is the key to a wizard power.
- Fighting in an arena in a duel fight that favors martial fights (example : 200ft x 200ft arena)
- Not having access to several spells
- Not being able to use everything he could have done during her evolution (called outsiders, simulacrum built, creatures dominated, ...) except those called/created in the last day/week/month.
- Not being able to act smart because limited in actions (you must not leave or else you lose, you must not use a clone/astral projection/... or else you lose, you must not use a semi plane or else you lose, ...).

And even with all those things, the victory of the 10th tier 20th level is not even granted.

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Roan wrote:
Adept_Woodwright wrote:

Oh, and Roan. Mythic Paragon ups that to 15 HD. Seriously, Mythic Cloudkill is great. Unfortunately, its not given by Divine Source, and I don't know another Rules given way to get it so we can take it as Mythic.

Construct Domain gives limited Wish. Mythic Spellcasting can make that Mythic Limited Wish, which can duplicate Mythic Wizard/Sorcerer spells 6th level and below.

I have done my homework this time :)

You don't know the spell nor can cast the spell.

You have SLA, and I don't believe it should be enough. But whatever.

The whole point of this thread was to know if a no-class level 20 with 10 mythic tiers could do something against a wizard 20.

The answer is maybe.

And I insist on "no-class", because the "fighter" part of the character contributes to nothing that the character does. (Yes, you can check the whole 1000+ posts, there are litterally nothing coming from the fighter, everything comes from the Mythic tiers).

Yes, this topic has achieved the fact of proving that the fighter can't contribute in any way against a high level wizard.

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Stark_ wrote:

Lesser Geas is unreliable and not that great.

Geas has a long casting time, but has use for the creative player.

Limited Wish replicating Geas as a standard action is horrifying.

Yeah, it's much better. Bu you still have to make a geas that can actually work.

Geas used with called outsiders makes wonders, but against a party it's not such a great spell. I guess you could order someone to stand out of the combat...

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DreamGoddessLindsey wrote:

Here we have a spell that can force any character to do whatever the caster wants, at Level 6, with no saving throw.

Party gets to the boss of the dungeon. Evil Wizard casts Geas/Quest. Now the party leader must kill the rest of the party. WIPE.

Is there something I'm missing that balances this? It's way worse than Dominate Monster because there's no saving throw. If I'm not missing a limit, this is likely the most broken spell in Pathfinder.

10 minutes of casting time is very annoying for such a spell.

Moreover, your order (kill the party) wouldn't work, because it would mean certain death for the target.

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Hello everyone.

In another thread, I have seen someone using Use Magic Device to get caster level in order to activate a staff.

My problem is that he also believe that he can use the emulated caster level for the power of the staff (his character is a rogue).

Here is my question :

Can an emulated Caster level gained through Use Magic Device be used to enhance the power of a staff ? Same question for Ability scores emulated through UMD ?

Examples :
A rogue use the skill Use Magic Device to emulate a caster level of 15. You use a staff that have a caster level of 8. Which caster level do you use ?

A rogue use the skill Use Magic Device to emulate an intelligence of 20. Her actual intelligence is 14 and she use a staff casting a level 6 spell. Which DC will it have ? 19 (as the minimum for a level 6 spell) or 21 (using the emulated intelligence) ?

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Athaleon wrote:
Alexandros Satorum wrote:
Artanthos wrote:

And good luck killing her obsidian steed.
Not sure what is that and how you have it.
It's a magic item. If this is the one, it's not even that impressive.

19 hp.

28500gp per figurine.
Useable once per week.

Yeah, I don't think that this figurine is that useful.

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Ssalarn wrote:
Cheapy wrote:

What a unique thread, and not one that has half a dozen similarly hot button issue threads on the front page.

But, since you asked: they do. The damage output and single target debuffing capabilities of a high level fighter, as well as the versatility in weapons Weapon Training gives, is very impressive, and can cause lots of issues in actual games.

There's just a meme going around, still left over from 3.5 despite being thoroughly false in PF, that martials are weak. Actual play rarely shows this to be the case.

I made an argument in another thread that the Fighter isn't weak, he's incomplete, and it's something I'll stand by.

I think there's two major contributing factors to this:

1) The point I made about the Fighter being incomplete. I, personally, will not dispute the fact that the Fighter is pretty much the big cheese during the first 5 levels of play, nor that he can, under the right circumstances, maintain point as king of DPR throughout most of the life of play. These are generally true things. However, the difference between a Fighter and most of the other full BAB martials when it comes to dealing damage is actually pretty slim. Yes, he's better, but often not so much better that it's going to make a functional difference in play. If a Fighter caps out at 150 damage when a Barb is only doing 135, and the monsters only have 120 hp.... It doesn't matter. The math I've seen put together kind of supports this.
So the Fighter is the best at doing something that other guys are good at as well, but they all have huge toolboxes of other things they can do, like cleaving spell effects in half with their swords, tracking an enemy through atrocious conditions while simultaneously providing food and water for the group, or shmoozing with the powers of the land to build some political clout. There's an imbalance between the Fighter and other classes as far as performance. Almost every class in the game is well-rounded and multi-faceted. The Fighter is stunningly one-dimensional and just doesn't get as much as the other classes.

2) Skills don't scale well. It's been noted by some that many spells can completely supplant the function of most skills, while adding something else to the mix besides. Invisibility gives you a +20 to stealth checks, and turns you invisible to boot. Spider Climb gives you an actual climb speed, a +8 to climb checks, and removes the need to make most of the most common checks.
I want better stuff from skills. 6 ranks in a trained skill has you performing at the level of the best olympic athletes in the real world. At 20 ranks, nothing has actually changed in what you can do, you can just do it under more adverse conditions. Why is that? At 20th level I'm not saying a Fighter should have magic, but his strength and skill should allow him to leap across the battlefield like John Carter, or dash up a cliff-face to strike out at a group of enemy archers. These feats aren't magical and they don't strain belief; what strains belief is that a character who's so far beyond his earlier self in terms of the sheer numbers supporting his actions still being bound by the same limitations. If it were possible for the Olympic athlete I mentioned earlier to push his body to the point where we was literally 3 times as strong and agile, don't you think that would have equivalent correspondence in his capabilities? Don't you think we'd be seeing new records for the high jump and the long jump, or rock climbers capable of hurling themselves 5 and 10 feet upwards with each pull of their arms? We don't see it now because human bodies aren't capable of that kind of strength, endurance, and skill. But characters in Pathfinder do, numerically, have that capability but are bound by the same restrictions that held them when they were just mere mortals like the rest of us. That's what I don't like.

I have exactly the same opinion on the matter.

And I do it when I am DMing, just inventing new actions with each their proper DC (and changing some actions DC that doesn't feel right).

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