I've suggested that Taunt should be a Stance, much like those of the Monk class, and last until the foe is dropped, much like the Ranger's Hunt Prey ability. I dislike that it is an action tax every round, considering it is arguably the main class feature of the Guardian. I also think raising the HP to 12 would help make this feel more like a "tank" class, since it risks getting critically hit more often due to the Taunt ability. The rest of my comments can be found HERE.
I just discovered I had posted my feedback in the wrong forum. Reposting here for better visibility. I played a Guardian today in a Pathfinder Society scenario. In the only combat, my character would have dropped in the first round if not for Orc Ferocity. I used a reaction to Intercept Strike from the enemy for the squishy witch, taking half of my HP before I even had a chance to act. Then, I drew my weapon, stepped into combat, and used Taunt. The creature focused all of his attacks on me (which IS the role of this class!), but would have dropped me if not for Orc Ferocity. I never got a chance to Raise Shield, so no Shield Block reaction. The Taunt ability makes an enemy focus on you... but that +2 means an increased chance in critical hits, something the Guardian just doesn't have the hit points to absorb. And Armor Critical Specialization barely came into play; at 1st level, I could afford a chainmail shirt and shield at best (not that the shield did me much good). The ACS for chain only reduces damage from CRITICAL HITS, meaning it didn't do much for the two of three attacks that hit me. And Mitigate Harm barely helped, feeling too weak at this level to be effective. As for suggestions, I would make the following: 1) Make this a CON-based class. It needs HP to be effective in the role it is supposed to fill. It isn't much of an attacker, and will fall behind the Fighter soon enough (which I am okay with). Focusing on CON means a more robust HP pool and Fortitude save. 2) Raise the HP. A viable argument can be made that this class needs HP more than any other. Raising the HP to 12 wouldn't make this class unstoppable; it will (likely) be taking a LOT of critical hits. 3) Change Taunt from a 1-action activity to a Stance. Having to Taunt every round to insure the enemy focuses on you is an action tax the class cannot afford. Having it as a Stance means it get entered once at the beginning of combat, only being reused if that combatant drops, much like the Ranger's Hunt Prey ability. 4) If you aren't going to change the HP, then the ability to mitigate damage needs a huge buff. As it is, it barely matters at low levels, meaning a player will get bored and abandon this class before it gets interesting. 5) This class relies a LOT on reactions. Without a Commander to grant additional ones, Intercept Strike falls flat very quickly. And making the player chose between that or Shield Block is even worse. IF anything, it feels like a Guardian should have one free extra reaction to do either of those each round. It would also free up a Guardian to potentially use Reactive Shield or potentially, Attack of Opportunity (not granted to the class, I know). Personally, I would NEVER choose Reactive Shield as a feat for this class, knowing the Guardian is based on having reactions to prevent damage to allies. I know this comes across very critical of the class. I'm not gonna lie; I was skeptical of how this would act in actual play. Having played a few Champions, I was interested in seeing how this stacked up. But I decided to play it out, to see if my fears were unfounded. As written, I now have no fear that the Champion would still reign in the "tank" niche for PF2. I would also have no desire to play this class either, as currently written.
I agree with all of these points. I played a Guardian today in a Pathfinder Society scenario. In the only combat, my character would have dropped in the first round if not for Orc Ferocity. I used a reaction to Intercept Strike from the enemy for the squishy witch, taking half of my HP before I even had a chance to act. Then, I drew my weapon, stepped into combat, and used Taunt. The creature focused all of his attacks on me (which IS the role of this class!), but would have dropped me if not for Orc Ferocity. I never got a chance to Raise Shield, so no Shield Block reaction. The Taunt ability makes an enemy focus on you... but that +2 means an increased chance in critical hits, something the Guardian just doesn't have the hit points to absorb. And Armor Critical Specialization barely came into play; at 1st level, I could afford a chainmail shirt and shield at best (not that the shield did me much good). The ACS for chain only reduces damage from CRITICAL HITS, meaning it didn't do much for the two of three attacks that hit me. And Mitigate Harm barely helped, feeling too weak at this level to be effective. As for suggestions, I would make the following: 1) Make this a CON-based class. It needs HP to be effective in the role it is supposed to fill. It isn't much of an attacker, and will fall behind the Fighter soon enough (which I am okay with). Focusing on CON means a more robust HP pool and Fortitude save. 2) Raise the HP. A viable argument can be made that this class needs HP more than any other. Raising the HP to 12 wouldn't make this class unstoppable; it will (likely) be taking a LOT of critical hits. 3) Change Taunt from a 1-action activity to a Stance. Having to Taunt every round to insure the enemy focuses on you is an action tax the class cannot afford. Having it as a Stance means it get entered once at the beginning of combat, only being reused if that combatant drops, much like the Ranger's Hunt Prey ability. 4) If you aren't going to change the HP, then the ability to mitigate damage needs a huge buff. As it is, it barely matters at low levels, meaning a player will get bored and abandon this class before it gets interesting. 5) This class relies a LOT on reactions. Without a Commander to grant additional ones, Intercept Strike falls flat very quickly. And making the player chose between that or Shield Block is even worse. IF anything, it feels like a Guardian should have one free extra reaction to do either of those each round. It would also free up a Guardian to potentially use Reactive Shield or potentially, Attack of Opportunity (not granted to the class, I know). Personally, I would NEVER choose Reactive Shield as a feat for this class, knowing the Guardian is based on having reactions to prevent damage to allies. I know this comes across very critical of the class. I'm not gonna lie; I was skeptical of how this would act in actual play. Having played a few Champions, I was interested in seeing how this stacked up. But I decided to play it out, to see if my fears were unfounded. As written, I now have no fear that the Champion would still reign in the "tank" niche for PF2. I would also have no desire to play this class either, as currently written.
I wish this was something that could be considered for Pathfinder Society play. There are a lot of players from 1E with the Venture Captain boon, following completion of Eyes of the Ten. It would be nice to see those characters make it into official cannon.
I don't know which of these announcements I'm more excited about, the reduction in AcP cost for those three Ancestries, or the new Backgrounds! I'm loving that these new Uncommon Backgrounds are tied to Season 3 events and storylines, and hope that we will see more adventures from those Venture-Captains/lodges/allies in the future, making that "kicker bonus" more worthwhile in Season 4 and many more to come!
Better plan would have been to remain silent. Let the internet rage machine tire itself out. Twitter will move on to the next nontroversy in a week. Considering that the first I heard of this was from a university student who isnt a gamer, I think it is naive to think only Paizo customers are concerned about this. It was a point of discussion in a class about publishing.
I also do think there’s a slim chance it’s a genre book, rather than a setting element, because I can see a horror supplement with Inquisitor (for monster-hunting) and Occultist (for delving into terrible secrets) as the new classes. While everyone else is clamoring for another themed book, I still have high hopes that we will finally see a comprehensive source book for the Tian Xi region, complete with a 2E archetype for the Kensai, Samurai, Ninja, and Wujen. The success of the Mwangi Expanse hardcover further bolstered that hope. I doubt this is going to be that book though.
I'm liking all of these changes. I just wish we would see a similar AcP pricing change for Tengu. According to canon, they are found pretty much throughout Golarion. To me, that justifies (at the very least) a reduction. With the success of the Mwangi Expanse book, my hopes are raised that we will finally see a comprehensive Tian-Xi campaign setting... and the return of the Wayang and Nagaji, since Kitsune have already been covered in The Lost Omens Ancestry Guide!
As the father of one child with high-functioning autism and another with oppositional-defiance disorder, I can attest to the positive impact a tabletop roleplaying game can have for someone with neurodiversity. Both of my children have benefited from playing Pathfinder, learning how to communicate with others acceptably, as well as other social cues that are often far more difficult for those within the spectrum. Thank you for letting me know that there is an organization dedicated to utilizing tabletop games to help others find acceptance within our greater community!
*Straight out jaw drop* That is the best news I've heard since the release of 2E! I was... not a fan of Goblins becoming a Core race. I felt it was a hard transition from the "burn everything/murder midgets" of past canon to them being a semi-civilized race. I campaigned early on for Kobolds to be that new race instead, citing how they have had positive interactions with other races in known history (the Sewer Dragons being among them). Alas, Goblins won out... and as the unofficial mascot of Paizo, I understood. I fully expected Kobolds to be released as a playable race, but I also figured we would have to earn that right, much like we will for those found in other source books. I am pleasantly surprised! This is a GREAT move!
I'll post here what I did on Facebook when Know Direction announced this: "My biggest question for Paizo's Beginner's Box products has always been "Why the delay?" It seems like a product like this could really help skyrocket the sales of the line, especially at the beginning of that product line. Personally, the long delay for the Starfinder Beginner's Box made me less inclined to buy it... and without it, I was less invested in the Starfinder RPG altogether. Products like these are the gateway drug for tabletop RPGs; they should be at the forefront of the line!"
...answered about the difficulties the OPF/Paizo separation has created in broad strokes... I, for one, would much prefer the pdf of the Guide revert back to being produced by Paizo. While the website is fine, it is hardly intuitive to peruse, and is significantly difficult to search through. It was a good stop-gate answer at the time, but it needs to come back to Paizo for a couple of reasons. 1) Official Production: The PFS Guide being produced by Paizo makes it feels more "official." While I appreciate the hard work that some of the VOs have put into creating a printable version, it is still rife with errors and artifacts of having been lifted from the website. These are errors that would (hopefully) not exist in an official pdf version, having gone through an extensive developer overlook before passing. Most importantly though, it lacks the style and feel of Paizo products. This has the effect of... 2) Professional Presentation: The Guide is the first look at PFS that some players get. They don't buy scenarios. If they are solely players, they have no need for the Bestiary. And with the delay of sanctioning of the Lost Omens line, they have no burning need to purchase other 2nd Edition products either. The Core Rulebook is really all they need. Again, a lot of hard work has been put into creating a printable version, but (for legal reasons) it lacks the design qualities we have grown to expect from the PFS Guides previous. Because of that, it looks... cheap (no offense meant) by comparison. I understand that the workforce on PFS has been hit hard, and the lose of your webmaster has hurt as well. Because of this, I can see that producing a pdf wasn't as much of a priority as just getting the info out. If possible, this needs to be addressed as the team rebuilds and regrows. Having a link at the OPF website is fine (it's working for PF1 and Starfinder!), but ultimately, I'd like to see an "official" Guide... and have it hosted by Paizo once again.
This actually sounds like a fair compromise. It fulfills the need for new sanctioned content without having to wait on the initiation of the AcP. Like others have reported, the PF2 is slowly losing steam. Not because they have exhausted scenarios or the options of the new CRB, but because some of the options in the Lost Omens sources are so damn GOOD! Players are used to having their toys and are spoiled by the previous iteration of PFS. Throw us a bone. As I've been saying for months: help US help YOU!
... a lot of relevant things articulately... I feel your pain, my friend. This subject has been discussed in another thread HERE with varying levels of success and far more vitriol. Quite a few of the PFS player base in my region have decided to not purchase the Lost Omens World Guide based on what they perceive as a "poor price for value." Regardless of whether the merging of the two lines will save money in the long run (which is up for debate), they have expressed their opinions that this merging takes away some degree of agency in their purchases. Before, a person who was merely a player could choose the Companion line, and even avoid those issues they felt they would never use. Likewise, A GM could purchase only those Campaign Setting books pertinent to the game they were running. Now, we have an "all or nothing" option, one that comes quarterly for the foreseeable future (as Vic Wertz has confirmed) that encompasses both lines. To be completely fair, most of my players were more distressed by the pdf price, which we now know is based off of a percentage of the cover price. They rely on digital product, since it is more convenient for portable play, such as conventions and game days. It is a product that only Paizo benefits from the sale of; no one else had authority or access to sell Pathfinder or Starfinder pdfs. I've expressed multiple times the opinions of my constituents. Many people at Paizo have responded (notably Sara Marie, Michael Sayre, and Vic Wertz) with insight into the industry in general and the process of pricing in particular. While I have no idea how wide-spread the decisions Paizo has made will impact Pathfinder Society play worldwide, I can share how it has impacted the microcosm of my own region. Some are willing to give Paizo benefit of the doubt. But far more are expressing content with just continuing playing PFS with Pathfinder 1st Edition until they run out of material.
Wow! I leave this thread for a few days and it explodes! I'm not going to argue that the print price of this book is too high; I concede that I do not know enough about the overall cost of producing a book such as this to make that judgment call. As others have pointed out, the cost for the pdf of this book is set by a (rough) consistent percentage of the actual cost of a physical copy. I've given other industry comparisons, and admit unarguably that Paizo cannot compete in same price range with 5E Dungeons & Dragons, simply because Hasbro can afford to take the hit in much that same way that Walmart does: they can spread the lose to other departments if necessary. Paizo is a much smaller company. They are the #2 tabletop RPG publishing company in the world presently, but the gap between them and the #1 RPG publisher is fairly huge... and they have years of branding to help them. In short, I'm not going to tip my lance at this particular windmill anymore. Yes, in the publishing industry the terms "sold out" can consider a number of factors. The largest one that creates a false impression of popularity/scarcity is "purposely underprinting." The comics industry does this a lot, especially after the devastating effect of "overprinting" in the 90's.I have enough faith in Paizo however to believe they wouldn't resort to such a tactic. Because of this, I give congratulations to you on selling out on this newest of tomes! You have earned it! I do implore Paizo to take a look at the effect this could have on the organized play community, a community that is required to own the appropriate source material to use options provided. I also ask that they stay committed to their announced printing schedule of "one per quarter" to help belay the lose of the easily affordable Companion line. As I've said before, I don't know what the solution is. I've just reported the problem, that perceived problem being that the pdf price seems comparatively too high to my local/regional player base. It is up to Paizo to find that balance that pleases their digital customers and their own financial needs. Of note: I noticed that the 5E D&D Starter box comes with a unique coupon code that gives a discount on buying the digital Player's Handbook. Could something like this be considered, a discount given for purchasing a physical copy? Just a thought.
...many Venture Lieutenants and Venture Agents feel compelled to purchase products to stay "up to date." While the requirement puts the onus of providing proof of game mechanics onto the player, a large majority of the VOs like to understand these in advance of being blind-sided with the latest feat, equipment or archetype at their table. Perhaps even more so than your average casual player, these VOs are the target audience for those pdfs. In the past, GMs and VOs could keep up with the amount of content through two methods: 1) cherrypicking, or 2) the extremely affordable nature of the pdfs. In the first, it came down to content. If you never run a scenario in Kaer Maga, there is little need to purchase the Campaign Setting book detailing it. And on the rare chance you do, you can either purchase that sourcebook (in either physical or digital form) or do a web search and see whaat information you find. The latter might produce a workable knowledge of the region, but purchasing the sourcebook allows the GM in inject a little more detail, scoured from the pages of Paizo’s impressive writing. In the second method, a GM/VO can have an much more portable copy of the exact source material at their finger tips, trading in pounds of pages for a far more accessible digital format. When it came to soft-bound books, sometimes having that physical copy made sense. I mean, how often is Kaer Maga going to come up? And besides, it supports Paizo. With the hardcovers however, portability is king. Looking to my right, I have over 25 tomes of Pathfinder rules; it would be ridiculous to think I would haul all of those to a convention or game day, just to insure I have every possible source for every possible mechanic that might show up at my table. Yes, the burden of that is on the players to present—far too often, they are relying on HeroLab or Archives of Nethys, places where shorthand for those mechanics leave a lot to be interpreted by the reader. Honestly, the cost of the hardcovers isn’t the big issue to my constituents: It’s the cost of the pdfs. And since the cost of the pdfs is directly derived from the print cost, it becomes an issue only because of that impact. Vic Wertz is right to point out that printing costs and volume have impact on deciding that final price as well. While Paizo has a educated guest as to their target sales projections and potential audience, every print run is a risk. My players have let me know they aren’t sure this new price model is for them. I’m only presenting the perspective brought to me because I don’t want Paizo to fail. Again, I appreciate everyone who has been civil in this conversation, asking questions of viewpoints they don’t understand without passing judgement first. I also appreciate the responses from Mr. Wertz who has takenthe time to address this issue within this thread.. I hope that he understands that we both want the best for Paizo: continued success!
As an aside, I just visited my local gaming store and did some comparisons of other products from industry competitors. Troll Lords Games
From WotC:
The Lost Omen’s World Guide falls in comparison more with the books that WotC produces than those of other companies, having full color art and hardcover print runs. And yes, I’ve stated previously that Hasbro has the money to take a lose on the D&D brand while practically printing money with the cardboard crack that is Magic: the Gathering. But nether of them are coming close to the $.25 per page that Paizo is asking for each entry in the Lost Omens line. If the goal is to stay within reasonable reach of their competitors, then an adjusted price point would better reflect that.
Of equal interest (and chagrin) is that the new Lost Omen Campaign line is quarterly—for now. But the Companion line and Campaign Setting line were once bi-monthly. Will Paizo commit to that quarterly schedule?There are currently four books scheduled in the Lost Omens line in 2020. It's too early to say anything for sure for 2021, but I don't expect that pace to change. Thank you as well, Mr. Wertz, for taking time to respond. I appreciate that comment of commitment to the quarterly schedule model of sales for the foreseeable future. Please understand that my perspective comes from a place of well-meaning concern. I want Paizo to succeed. And I am seriously impressed with what Jason, Michael, and the others have developed with Pathfinder Second Edition. I’d like to see Paizo continue in it’s success for ANOTHER decade or more! Unlike WotC, Pathfinder can’t hide behind the money of a big parent company, taking a lose in one line such as the D&D brand while raking in the profits from Magic: the Gathering. It’s David to their Goliath... and I always root for the underdog. Standing up to Goliath in this case means listening to your customer base, in much the same as I am to my player base. And the core of my player base are Pathfinder Society Players who are rightfully concerned about the pdf pricing of this new line. This is something that only Paizo can address and an issue that can not be addressed if no one expresses that concern. I am reminded of one of the pieces of advice I give my children: If you never ask, the answer is always “No.”
Yes. It was absolutely common for players to only purchase what was needed for their character build. For some, that might be the CRB and a few Companions. For others, it might mean the whole library of products. And without that “modular” feel to the line, it’s a much harder sell now. I understand the math, about how the balance point of the page count works in the favor of the players now overall. But while you are looking at the total amount of mechanic content in LOWG, those same players are only looking at the page count and seeing it as a mere 22 pages of material they will use. Comparative to your normal Companion book, that comes across as a lose—and the rest of the page content of the 160 page hardcover are irrelevant. Of equal interest (and chagrin) is that the new Lost Omen Campaign line is quarterly—for now. But the Companion line and Campaign Setting line were once bi-monthly. Will Paizo commit to that quarterly schedule? The answer is “No” and good business says that is understandable. If the demand for more content is there, then they would be silly to not amp up their production... as they did in the past with the two lines this one is replacing. I’m not trying to say that Paizo is cheating anyone—far from it! I’m just acting as the voice of my constituents and expressing their perspective. And to them, the new pdf price point seems too high.
I want to thank Michael Sayre for addressing things from the Paizo side of things. I also want to personally thank both TriOmegaZero and Joana for keeping focus on my main point. Much appreciated. My main concern is primarily 1) how this impacts PFS, and 2) how this will effect overall sales, in that order. I don't think Mr. Sayre is being dismissive when saying "Playing Pathfinder Society is it's own reward." I do however think it is short-sighted and ignores how much impact Pathfinder Society Organized Play impacts those sales. In my area, 5E D&D is still king: it has brand recognition, bolstered by being nostalgically featured (albeit, in its original form) in Netflix's Stranger things. Pathfinder has stood its ground for the last 11 years mainly through the thrust of its sponsored organized play. In my time as a coordinator, I've seen certain lines (such as the Companion line) sell out in the first week it is released... with a second run likewise selling out when content is sanctioned from it. As the mass of source books reached critical, players increasingly turned to digital and found the prices to be comparable and affordable, especially for those backbreaking, hardcover books. Because they were so affordable, most STILL purchased "dead tree" versions of those books; they just didn't see the need to cart them to game stores. Pathfinder Second Edition is an absolutely stunning system! AS a former silent detractor, that in itself is a huge compliment. I want it and Paizo to succeed and produce many more books for years to come. But the price point for these 130-160 page books gives even veteran players pause. And when the pdfs are equally daunting in price, they will start looking elsewhere. No amount of free tidbits on a Chronicle sheet will bring them back if they feel slighted or "gouged" by those prices. Arguably, Paizo sets the price for their print books comparative to competitors. Whether those prices seem fair or equable is an argument with room for debate. However, Paizo makes 100% of the pdf sales--pure profit. There is no competitive market for these products; no one else can sell them. And yes, setting that price too low could impact the print sales negatively. Why would you by a hardcover in print if it is considerably cheaper in a preferable digital form? And therein lies the problem: for most of the modern Pathfinder PFS players, digital IS that preferred form. We are already conditioned to expect future rules blat and the need to convert to a convention-friendly format. We KNOW that it is required to own the product to us it in organized play. Already, I am getting feedback from my players (and some of my VOs!) that they will be unable to continue playing PFS with Pathfinder Second Edition if the current pricing persists. They are finding the content-to-price value too high to high to consider. And with 11 years of previous PFS content for Pathfinder 1st Edition, they can afford to let their wallets speak their discontent by not buying anything until they feel an adjustment has been made. I am speaking only of my own region, but I can't be alone in this concern. I ask of you Mr. Sayre to please address this with persons such as Erik Mona (who I know is a huge proponent for organized play) and see if a solution can be made. I don't want Pathfinder Second Edition to fail... but it could, simple because of a perceived disproportionate difference in its pricing model.
Then where is my Grippli?
I’m surprised that Leshy were chosen over Ghoran. In the past, Leshy were associated with druids, often as a plant-based replacement for animal companions, so I’m sure my perspective is skewed. Having just run PFS 7-05 School of Spirits, I would have loved to have seen them opened up, especially this early into the development of PF2. So much lore to explore!
First off, thanks for moving this to another thread as requested by Paizo’s customer service. Hopefully this will not be ignored simply for being moved off of the product page discussion. Since Joanna was nice enough to repost my own opinion toward the top of this discussion, let me chime in further. I was extremely skeptical of Pathfinder Second Edition. The play test left me concerned about the future of Paizo, much like D&D 4E did to those diehard players. It seemed to be change for changes sake, with no clear unifying idea behind the design except what NOT to do. I was considering dropping out of Pathfinder altogether, the newest edition giving me an excuse to leave... and that’s a terrible thing for a Pathfinder Society Venture Captain to admit after playing, supporting and yes, shilling for Paizo and Pathfinder for over 10 years. And I wasn’t alone. While I kept my personal feelings private, putting on a brave face and cheerleading in my region, most of my players expressed the same discontent. Then the final reduction released. Locally, we ran a intro event that combined playing through a Quest with pregenerated characters followed by a character creation session. The response was overwhelmingly positive. My local store sold out of CRBs in the first day, and turned around and sold 6 more within a week. They sold almost as many copies of the Bestiary; not a single person complained about price or quality of the books, though most of them noted that they might have to resort to buying digital copies of future books to save their backs. All of this background provides context for why I made my original post. I number of my players are balking at buying the new World Guide. Anticipating the same level of excitement for that hardcover, the owner of my FLGS purchased an initial order of 10 of these, less than half of what he ordered for the CRB, but not knowing how well they would move, he considered that a conservative number. Of those, he has only one guaranteed sale: myself. I’m a firm believer in supporting your local game store, especially if they host our organized play games. Already though, I’m hearing complaints from my player base about the value of that book. It is roughly 160 pages of content, of which less a quarter of which is actual mechanics; the rest is fluff about the campaign world. Essential fluff, but fluff nonetheless. In answer to this apparent disparency between prize and product, a number of them looked to Paizo for a digital copy... and found the cost there too high to justify as well. Now some of them are talking of staying with PF1, drifting into home games, or dropping out altogether. As much as Paizo doesn’t want to admit it, Pathfinder Society is the life-blood of Pathfinder: simply put, it is the marketing arm of the product. Right now, I am in danger of losing 1) my player base, and 2) continued store support over the cost of one hardcover book. Both are looking down the road and seeing this as an issue, with more product to come and no guarantee that the price point will skew toward what they consider a good value. The breakdown of pricing is what causes the biggest issue. The hardcover of the new Core Rulebook has a value of roughly $.09 per page. Likewise, the Bestiary breaks down to roughly $.11 per page. Both of those are acceptable to my players and they didn’t even bat an eye on purchasing either of them. The Lost Omens World Guide though has a cost of $.22 per page... and not a lot of value when you consider that roughly 25 pages of that are useful for character building. And the Players Guide doesn’t look to be much better for the value, though I suspect the actual rules/mechanics to take up far more space. In most cases, this wouldn't be much of a worry; a chunk of the players would just purchase pdfs of the books direct from Paizo, the store would order less (based on pre-order information) and life would go on. The expense of the pdfs though will lead to players either 1) using the FREE sources such as Articles of Nethys, or 2) downloading pirated copies. Neither of these will help PFS play since a player is required to own the actual source materially, either in physical or digital form. This isn’t a new problem either. We saw a similar dip in interest in Starfinder print sales based on much that same issue: too little content/page count for too much money. At least in that, the pdfs were still affordable—something that keeps it hanging on despite a seeming lack of product support. With Pathfinder Second Edition, this problem seems to have escalated. There is no more affordable Companion line to appeal to a “for player’s only” ideal. Like Starfinder, the Campaign Setting is all there will be be. And apparently, it will be all hardcovers. At an escalated price. I implore Paizo to consider the impact their pricing has on their overall sales BEFORE it has a detrimental effect of their ability to produce more. Pathfinder Second Edition is a FANTASTIC system, and one I have no problem promoting. But not at this price point—especially for digital/virtual product. Please reconsider.
Scanning through, I just saw this post and apologize if my recent post needs to be removed. Is there another thread discussing this that my post can be redirected to? I want to be clear—I love the new World Guide. I have no idea how Paizo decides its pricing. My only concern is that this will affect sales and cost us players right out of the gate, especially for Pathfinder Society Organized Play. I wouldn’t have said anything if it wasn’t a concern of my constituents.
To Erik Mona, James, Jacobs, or Mark Moreland: A moment of your time, please? I’ve not read through all the posts (400+) on this product, but can we please address the elephant in the corner? This book is $36 for 136 pages of content. That equals out to roughly $.22 per page. Comparatively, the Pathfinder Second Edition Core Rule book contains 640 pages and goes for $60, a break down of about $.09 per page. And the pdf for the new CRB is only $15 compared to the $25 for the pdf of the World Guide... for less content. I love the direction PF2 is headed. I was a skeptic during the play test, but the final product really turned me around. It is incredible and flexible, a joy to both run and play. I want to help sell this game (and the product line that follows!) but that is hard to do when the price point seems so out of whack. From what I’ve been lead to believe, the Campaign Setting line and Companion line have now been merged into this new Campaign Setting line, and all future products will be hardcover... I think that’s a fair idea. But the Companion line was what most player’s bought, often getting subscriptions since the print run for that was known to be much smaller than the more “evergreen” hardcover books. this was balanced out by the affordability of the hardcover books in pdf form. If this price point continues, I’m afraid the push-back will be players either sticking with PF1 or leaving for other games. this is especially true of charging so much for the pdf products, a virtual book that costs nothing extra to produce that that isn’t already accounted for in the print model. I implore you to consider lowering the cost of these books. At the very least, look at lowering the price point for the pdfs. I’d hate to start losing players over this when it can be addressed and adjusted. Thank you for your time.
I just hope we see more Ancestral weapons. Right now, pickings are thin in the PF2 CRB; elves can only pick Elven Curveblade. And I don’t relish waiting another full year for a PF2 equivalent to Ultimate Equipment after the long wait for one for Starfinder. I’m STILL waiting for a Starship Guide for that system!
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