Weretouched Shifter Questions (for the developers)


Rules Questions

Scarab Sages

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1. When a Weretouched deinonychus Shifter grows her claws, do they appear on her hands (giving her 5 attacks at lvl 4) or are they mapped onto her talins like in the major form?

2. In hybrid form, the Weretouched Shifter gains bonuses as if using Beast Shape with a Medium animal. Is it intentional that these bonuses remain the same for Small characters, or should they be +2 Dex, +1 natural armor instead like for a Small animal?

3. Is it intentional that Shifter‘s Edge can be taken at 1st level but has no effect there? Should it say (minimum 1)? That would certainly help make the feat useful. If you have to wait until 3rd anyway, I guess most people will just get an Agile amulet instead.

4. Is it intentional that the Weretouched Shifter stops gaining class features after 6th, except for the form upgrades at 8th and 15th? As is, it‘s almost mandatory to multiclass after 6th...


Not a dev obv (you're also not likely to get a response) here's my commentary on your things.

1.) Claws always appear from the hands, so yes you get 5 natural attacks, but only your claws are using the shifter claw damage.

2.) Definitely seems intentional, would be nice to be able to pick between +2 dex or +2 str though. Seems like they were limited in space when writing the archetype.

3.) The feat is bad, since the damage it allows you to get is less than the damage you'd get from am agile enchant, and the feat doesn't work when you use an agile enchant.

4.) Weretouched still gets all the base shifter class features that it doesn't replace, including the claw damage increases, defensive instinct, shifter's fury, thousand faces, etc.

Scarab Sages

willuwontu wrote:
Not a dev obv (you're also not likely to get a response) here's my commentary on your things.

Agreed. I moved the question to the thread on the Shifter changes. I wouldn't mind deleting this thread, but I don't think I have that kind of power. :Þ

willuwontu wrote:
Claws always appear from the hands, so yes you get 5 natural attacks, but only your claws are using the shifter claw damage.

That seems pretty excessive for 4th level... shouldn't every Rogue want this now...?


Catharsis wrote:
That seems pretty excessive for 4th level... shouldn't every Rogue want this now...?

Why would they wait for this when you can get 5 at 1st without it...? Or 6 at 3rd?


Feat is not necessarily bad... +4 strength -2 dex for wildshaping into large can easily mean that Str +.5 level can be significantly higher than Dex.

Unless I botched something, when I was crunching numbers, a 10str 19dex shifter, wildshaping into a tiger and using the ÷str and +dex minor aspects ends up at 20 str 23 dex (lvl 15)

5+7 vs 6. It is 6 more damage, and you can spend that +1 bonus on something else.


Wait, what? Fairly sure that is not the intended functioning...


toastedamphibian wrote:

Feat is not necessarily bad... +4 strength -2 dex for wildshaping into large can easily mean that Str +.5 level can be significantly higher than Dex.

Unless I botched something, when I was crunching numbers, a 10str 19dex shifter, wildshaping into a tiger and using the ÷str and +dex minor aspects ends up at 20 str 23 dex (lvl 15)

5+7 vs 6. It is 6 more damage, and you can spend that +1 bonus on something else.

whoa, if you're only starting off with 10 str 19 dex (which really should be 20), at level 15 you have 22 dex (+3 from levels), when you wildshape you have

Large:
20 str 26 dex
Edge is +12
No edge is +8

Medium:
18 str 28 dex
Edge is +11
No edge is +9

Small:
16 str 32 dex
Edge is +10
No edge is +11

However, note that by having both tiger and bull Minor forms active, you're losing out on other forms that would be better suited, such as Mouse (evasion on a dex build yo) or wolverine (+15hp, diehard).

Note: You always have bear as your secondary minor form for that hp boost.

As a dex build you far more likely to not have bull form active, in which case you look like this

Large:
14 str 26 dex
Edge is +9
No edge is +8

Medium:
12 str 28 dex
Edge is +8
No edge is +9

Small:
10 str 32 dex
Edge is +7
No edge is +11

Sure you get 1 more damage from being large, but is that really worth the feat slot on an already feat slot starved class?

It'd be better to take INA claws over shifter's edge.

Edge doesn't really help out until 20 (when you can have all minor forms active and the level bonus is high enough), but most campaigns don't get that far.

Note that edge is significantly better on Str based builds than dex builds even though your to hit suffers.


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19 dex was after +3 from level, 16 dex start. I got the thing in an email here somewhere... Here is is:

Quote:


5th level base shifter, with the INA, Weapon Finesse, Piranha Strike, and Shifter's Edge. Starting Attributes of 10 / 16(19) / 14 / 10 /14 /10, Human. Shifts into tiger form major aspect and Tiger and Bull Minor Aspects (Has a third aspect they can add as well, for initiative boost, ac vs AoO, Evasion, stealth, perception...)

Attributes: 20 / 23 / 14 / 10 /14 / 10
Armor: 24(10 -1 Size + 6 Dex + 2 Wis + 3 Class + 4 Nat) or 23 + Barding/Wild Armor (27 with non masterwork hide)
Attack: +20/+20/+20/+20 Claw/Rake 3d8+20 and +20 Bite 2d6+5 (19-20 x2) or
Attack: +16/+16/+16/+16 Claw/Rake 3d8+28 and +16 Bite 2d6+13 (19-20 x2)
With Grab, Pounce, and Rake and a 40ft land speed. All without any items needed. Average AC of a CR 15 enemy is 28 I'm told. Assuming a charge, 50% hit rate while PS'ing, Average damage per round is 93. 5 open feat slots.

Really not fleshed out at all, just something I halfway threw together in an attempt to prove that Shifter was not necessarily worse than a core only ranger. Does not have any items, skills, or most feats picked out.

Why do you say it is feat starved?
Also, you need to bump all your "edge" numbers up by +1 attack and +1 damage. If your not spending that on Agile, you should be spending it as a +1 enhancement bonus at least.

Scarab Sages

graystone wrote:
Catharsis wrote:
That seems pretty excessive for 4th level... shouldn't every Rogue want this now...?
Why would they wait for this when you can get 5 at 1st without it...? Or 6 at 3rd?

Huh? How does that work...?

toastedamphibian: Shifter's Edge only works on the Shifter's Claws, not on the other attacks... I'd expect the rakes to share the claws' base damage but not take the Edge bonus. The more attacks a Shifter has, the more Agile wins over Edge.

Sovereign Court

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I've got a number of questions about Weretouched of my own.

1) Can a Weretouched Shifter in hybrid form speak?
2) Can a Weretouched Shifter that multiclasses into something with spells cast said spells while in hybrid form? You still have hands, so should still be able to do somatic components, right?
3) Does a Weretouched Shifter's hybrid form have its natural attacks adjusted for size? For example: would a Dire Tiger hybrid form of medium size still have a 2d6 bite and 2d4 claws?
4) Does the hybrid form still lose all of the physical racial abilities? For example: darkvision, scent, etc.


Catharsis wrote:


toastedamphibian: Shifter's Edge only works on the Shifter's Claws, not on the other attacks... I'd expect the rakes to share the claws' base damage but not take the Edge bonus. The more attacks a Shifter has, the more Agile wins over Edge.

Rake attacks are claw attacks that you can get in special circumstances. But they are still claw attacks. Also:

Shifter wrote:
At 15th level, you gain the rake attack with your back claw attacks (dealing additional damage equal to that of your claw attack).


toastedamphibian wrote:

19 dex was after +3 from level, 16 dex start. I got the thing in an email here somewhere... Here is is:

Really not fleshed out at all, just something I halfway threw together in an attempt to prove that Shifter was not necessarily worse than a core only ranger. Does not have any items, skills, or most feats picked out.

Why do you say it is feat starved?
Also, you need to bump all your "edge" numbers up by +1 attack and +1 damage. If your not spending that on Agile, you should be spending it as a +1 enhancement bonus at least.

Yeah it's going to be subpar if you're not statting for the right stats (why would you even start with 16 dex on a dex build?), you didn't even dump cha.

Shifter gets a total of 10 feats, that's why I call it feat starved. Yes it can still get builds going, but it really needs more feats.

For a dex build you have at least 3 mandatory feats (pirahna strike, weapon finesse, shifter's rush) with more depending on your build style (since we're using tiger form it's better to go with a grapple build: agile maneuvers, powerful shape, improved unarmed strike, improved grapple, greater grapple, throat slicer or kraken style line, maybe rapid grapple), then you have your optional wild shape feats (planar wild shape, mutated shape, powerful shape, wild speech) of which planar wild shape is pretty much mandatory.

It's also pretty mandatory to take weapon focus claws, and then improved natural attack claws if you have the room for it.

If we're building at level 15 then we have 8 feats (9 if human) which would look like this:
Level 1: Weapon finesse(throat slicer if human)
level 3: Piranha strike
Level 5: shifter's rush
Level 7: agile maneuvers
Level 9: powerful shape
Level 11: improved unarmed strike
Level 13: improved grapple
Level 15: greater grapple

Given all that, you still can't afford to take edge by level 15, you could take it as a +1 training enchant, but then you're better off with agile.


Catharsis wrote:
graystone wrote:
Catharsis wrote:
That seems pretty excessive for 4th level... shouldn't every Rogue want this now...?
Why would they wait for this when you can get 5 at 1st without it...? Or 6 at 3rd?

Huh? How does that work...?

toastedamphibian: Shifter's Edge only works on the Shifter's Claws, not on the other attacks... I'd expect the rakes to share the claws' base damage but not take the Edge bonus. The more attacks a Shifter has, the more Agile wins over Edge.

The issue is that there are two views of how shifter's edge works when shaped via the line, "a natural attack augmented by your claws"

Claws augment natural attacks by replacing the damage for 2 attacks and granting DR piercing to all natural attacks.

So the question about shifter's edge is:
Does it apply to all the things getting the DR piercing which means all their natural attacks or does it apply to the attacks using claw damage and thus capped at 2?


Chess Pwn wrote:
Catharsis wrote:
graystone wrote:
Catharsis wrote:
That seems pretty excessive for 4th level... shouldn't every Rogue want this now...?
Why would they wait for this when you can get 5 at 1st without it...? Or 6 at 3rd?

Huh? How does that work...?

toastedamphibian: Shifter's Edge only works on the Shifter's Claws, not on the other attacks... I'd expect the rakes to share the claws' base damage but not take the Edge bonus. The more attacks a Shifter has, the more Agile wins over Edge.

The issue is that there are two views of how shifter's edge works when shaped via the line, "a natural attack augmented by your claws"

Claws augment natural attacks by replacing the damage for 2 attacks and granting DR piercing to all natural attacks.

So the question about shifter's edge is:
Does it apply to all the things getting the DR piercing which means all their natural attacks or does it apply to the attacks using claw damage and thus capped at 2?

The rake attacks use your claw damage dice (it's why tiger is nice), thus I think they'd qualify regardless of the outcome.


Catharsis wrote:
Huh? How does that work...?

Shifter's claws [1st level shifter] + skinwalker [raptor or boar] + Extra Feature feat [1st level feat] = 5 attacks at 1st... Optionally, they can be a Menhir Guardian monk or a Feral Champion warpriest.

At 3rd you can bump the attacks to 6 on the raptor with the Spirit Oni Master feat. [gore, bite, claw, claw, talon, talon]


willuwontu wrote:


Yeah it's going to be subpar if you're not statting for the right stats (why would you even start with 16 dex on a dex build?), you didn't even dump cha.

A well rounded character with good saves who is not a moron and can carry a conversation without putting his foot in his mouth?

Scarab Sages

graystone wrote:
Catharsis wrote:
Huh? How does that work...?

Shifter's claws [1st level shifter] + skinwalker [raptor or boar] + Extra Feature feat [1st level feat] = 5 attacks at 1st... Optionally, they can be a Menhir Guardian monk or a Feral Champion warpriest.

At 3rd you can bump the attacks to 6 on the raptor with the Spirit Oni Master feat. [gore, bite, claw, claw, talon, talon]

Wow, that‘s pretty ridiculous. :P


Yeah, well, the race is broken, simpel as that. Like how every single race with normal stat modifiers (+2/+2/-2) - exept changelings - get one +2 one a physical and one +2 on a mental stat; and then there comes the ragebred with +2str, +2con and a -2 to everyone's favourite dump stat. Or how skinwalkers are supposed to be some lycanthrope light with the ability to change into some sort of hybrid, but neither regular boars nor wereboars have hoof attacks, so why the f+@* do wereboar-kin have them?


Derklord wrote:
Yeah, well, the race is broken, simpel as that. Like how every single race with normal stat modifiers (+2/+2/-2) - exept changelings - get one +2 one a physical and one +2 on a mental stat; and then there comes the ragebred with +2str, +2con and a -2 to everyone's favourite dump stat. Or how skinwalkers are supposed to be some lycanthrope light with the ability to change into some sort of hybrid, but neither regular boars nor wereboars have hoof attacks, so why the f!~~ do wereboar-kin have them?

Broken?

A plain old lizardfolk [8rp]:
+2 Str, +2 Con
Natural Armor +1
Swim speed 30'
2 claws and bite
Dangerous Tail can add tail attacks
Spirit Oni Master can gain a gore

Tengu and Spirit Oni Master gets you 4 natural attacks

If these options are broken, pathfinder seems to have no problem with them being so.

Scarab Sages

Lizardfolk are a monster race. RP are utterly incapable of measuring a race‘s power, since ability bonuses are extremely undervalued. Derklord has a point.


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Catharsis wrote:
Lizardfolk are a monster race.

*shrug* they went to the trouble of making PC stats for them so they can't be too 'monster'.

Catharsis wrote:
RP are utterly incapable of measuring a race‘s power, since ability bonuses are extremely undervalued.

*shrug*

The race is straightforward and in the lowest tier of races. I don't see how a lizardfolk outpowers a 1/2 orcs +1 luck bonus to all saves, skilled, option of bonus stat placement, ect. IMO you and Derklord are OVERVALUING the physical stats to the exclusion of other factors.

Catharsis wrote:
Derklord has a point.

One that I disagree with. Add to that he doesn't make a claim of 'strong' but 'broken', which is even harder to justify.

How about the tengu? 3 natural attacks and perfect stats for an unchained rogue? Overpowered? Broken? Or is the prejudice only to dual physical stats for some reason?


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Everyone knows that characters that use physical stats are OP, can't get racial modifiers to two of them! Perish the thought. INT/CON or INT/DEX are way less powerful, by comparison.


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graystone wrote:
Catharsis wrote:
Lizardfolk are a monster race.

*shrug* they went to the trouble of making PC stats for them so they can't be too 'monster'.

I don't really have many dogs in the ragebred race beyond generally disliking virtually nonexistent natural attacks (like hoof or the ever fun talons on various dinosaurs) but they also made PC stats for stuff like Drow Nobles or Pure Blood Azlanti and I don't think anyone's going to argue they're meant for PCs to just pick willy nilly.


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Tarik Blackhands wrote:
I don't really have many dogs in the ragebred race beyond generally disliking virtually nonexistent natural attacks (like hoof or the ever fun talons on various dinosaurs) but they also made PC stats for stuff like Drow Nobles or Pure Blood Azlanti and I don't think anyone's going to argue they're meant for PCs to just pick willy nilly.

There is a difference between "willy nilly" and discounting them as possibilities in ANY game because they are monsters... It's also a difference in being "broken" or "overpowered" and being a non-PC "monster".

Since we can agree that they have been given PC stats, it seems quite dismissive to discount them offhand: So it's then a a debate of power and I disagree that 2 physical stats somehow makes lizardfolk SO super-uber ultra-strong as to make them more powerful than even the core races let alone the other ARG races that everyone uses without blinking an eye...

Talons: It's been ruled that claws can't be put on a bipeds feet because it's been deemed troublesome for for PC to 'double dip' on claw abilities and them place one set on their feet. As such, what we'd normally call 'claws' on a dino's feet are called talons instead. So IMO they make perfect sense: it's not changing what's there but just giving it a different name.

Hooves: *shrug* I find it silly that horses get unrestricted hoof attacks too... That said, I can see the drastic change of leg length changing the ability to make an attack with them or not. A human's leg is much longer than a boar and has a much greater range of motion. As such, I don't find it odd that the wereboar gets an attack that neither 'animal' gets: maybe a boar with humanlike legs would get hoof attacks? IMO the wereboars hooves are no 'sillier' than a harpy using 2 talon attacks while on the ground and they have been around since the game started.

toastedamphibian wrote:
Everyone knows that characters that use physical stats are OP, can't get racial modifiers to two of them! Perish the thought. INT/CON or INT/DEX are way less powerful, by comparison.

Well, of course. It's fine to make races with perfect stats for a caster but make them perfect for a MARTIAL... Perish the thought... I mean, we KNOW how many people complain about those races that have dual mental stats. I mean who thinks an aasimar or changeling was out of bounds because of their dual mental stats alone...

Sovereign Court

This kinda went off track, but there are still unanswered questions here.


Catharsis wrote:

1. When a Weretouched deinonychus Shifter grows her claws, do they appear on her hands (giving her 5 attacks at lvl 4) or are they mapped onto her talins like in the major form?

2. In hybrid form, the Weretouched Shifter gains bonuses as if using Beast Shape with a Medium animal. Is it intentional that these bonuses remain the same for Small characters, or should they be +2 Dex, +1 natural armor instead like for a Small animal?

3. Is it intentional that Shifter‘s Edge can be taken at 1st level but has no effect there? Should it say (minimum 1)? That would certainly help make the feat useful. If you have to wait until 3rd anyway, I guess most people will just get an Agile amulet instead.

4. Is it intentional that the Weretouched Shifter stops gaining class features after 6th, except for the form upgrades at 8th and 15th? As is, it‘s almost mandatory to multiclass after 6th...

5. Will the Weretouched Shifter keep Chimeric Aspect or at some point will t be errata'ed/clarified/faqed?

6. Assuming a Weretouched of the Mouse, does the bite attack damage increase when assuming the hybrid form, or does it still do 1d4 damage? And the speed gained of the mouse, should it change wether the shifter is in hybrid form or major aspect form? what about

7. Is it OK to be able to shift in one animal for seventeen levels and suddenly be able to change aspect to any small and medium sized humanoid from 18th level onwards?


5. The weretouched replaces shifter aspect and all it's improvements (which could mean it does already, but based on other archetype wording doesn't seem too)

6. It should increase in damage, you shouldn't gain the speed though while in hybrid though speed could be considered an ability.

7. Right now RAW you can, and it's weird.

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