Osiron Create Water Vs. The Desert

Regarding the actual issue at hand with "endless water".

This discussion had come up at least once during Beta, and it was under general consensus that this change didn't hurt the game, since a decanter of endless water was already available.

Regarding the implications of both of these things (the unlimited spell and the wonderous item)...

It does mean that non-sentient-based droughts (ie natural ones), would likely be less impacting in this world than before.

I've made this distinction before, but it begs repeating: D&D is not medieval. I can't be, with the magic that is at hand.

D&D is closer to early second industrial revolution (or technoical revolution), such as the late 1800s. Only instead of using science, it's using magic.

Curative magic means people die less often from small accidents or fights. Disease is kept in better control, and even reviving the recently dead is possible (pathfinder had a spell that brought someone back from death if they healed them up to positive hitpoints, right?).

Teleportation, flight, gates, horseshoe of zephyr, etc, all mean quicker travel between civilized areas.
Sending and various other spells allow for quicker communication... news can potentially travel as quickly as it does today depending on the rarity of spellcasters.

A city thriving in the middle of a desert, needing huge amounts of water being pumped into the area somehow, sounds a LOT like Las Vegas.

These things, while costly, could be feasible in a D&D world. Depending on the strategic value of a location (tactical, resource, etc), a nation might consider it worth the cost.

People are right through. You won't get a lush grassland out of desert, simply be adding tons of water to the area, even over a long period of time.
Maybe if some earth were brought in from elsewhere (once again, there are spells that could allow this), the equivalent of a garden or oasis could be created and maintained.

Overall, it's not going to cause an issue unless you feel it is impacting the flavour of your game world. If that's the case, then you may need to resort of houserules to alter how often, or how well the spell works.

From the other thread, and this one, here's some ways to approach this:

1. Limit the spell to a fixed amount per cast. While this doesn't stop "never ending casting", it really limits how much can be done in a single day (no olympic sized pools full with a single caster).

2. Make it a level 1 spell. I dislike this one for the simple reason that it's not being raised because it's worth a 1st level slot, but simply in response to the cantrip mechanic. It would make a very weak 1st level spell (unless you allowed it to cause damage somehow).

3. Make it like the other cantrips that "create": temporary. If you can't stockpile, that severely limits how much water will be available at a given time (only as much as there are casters in the area).

4. Make it dependant on the area. Such that it isn't getting the water from the elemental plane, but rather locally, either from moisture in the region or an underground source nearby.
This allows the DM to decide when it works abundantly or not.

The neat thing about the 4th idea is that it could set the stage for an adventure.
Perhaps a region was only barely maintaining a balance to remain livable, and when it became a strategic point for a small town to be made, the castings of create water caused the plantlife to gradually die out.
Less water is sticking around as the soil turns more arid, so more castings of create water are necessary to keep what little farming is done.
Druids start attacking the city, trying to drive out the cause of the imbalance. The locals think the Druids are causing the decline in farming land as part of their attacks.
A call to adventurers is made to help the town...

Metagaming.... seriously? I'm talking of a purely hypothetical situation you call metagaming?

Yes... it took hundreds of years and several genius level inventors building on each others work for humans to learn to properly harness electricity. Higher than average intelligence is a 12, engineering is "building stuff and structures" so likely aqueducts would be fine. Figuring out electricity and light bulbs? That's more like Knowledge (physics) and profession (inventor).

This sort of major breakthrough is outside the DC system for knowledge checks.

I'll go with making a waterwheel, aqueducts, running water, flush toilets...

Phooey!

How many dwarven engineers does it take to invent a lightbulb?

One: He asks a mage to whip up a continual light on a little glass sphere and then heads down the street to spend his time drinking ale and diddling wenches.

Phooey!

How many dwarven engineers does it take to invent a lightbulb?

One: He asks a mage to whip up a continual light on a little glass sphere and then heads down the street to spend his time drinking ale and diddling wenches.

By the way, I posted this to make a point, then realized it doesn't make a point...

My every so subtly misapplied point is this:

I believe there is a reason why we don't have (normally) guns or aluminum or electricity or internal combustion or internal plumbing or derigibles or railroad or cotton gins or any other semi-modern or modern invetnions in D&D.

When you think about it, D&D worlds (all of them) seem to presuppose that people have been here for ages. Many D&D worlds have people living the same way for tens of thousands of years. And some of those races (evles, I'm looking at you) are highly intellectual, brilliant even, and live seemingly forever.

Why can't any of them manage even some of the simpler things found in Earth history?

I mean, from the (Earthly) invention of fully articulated plate armor to the invention of gunpowder was less than 100 years, if memory serves. However, in D&D, full plate has existed for millennia but nobody (in most worlds) has even figured out how to make a good blasting powder, let alone black powder suitable for muskets.

It's even stranger when you consider that Earthly humans only lived about 70 years, and not all of that was productive years (childhood, dotage), so most brillinat inventers had at most 50 years or so to whip up their inventions. Many had quite a bit less.

Yet in D&D worlds, there are races who live hundreds and even thousands of years. Think what Thomas Edison might have done if he lived 1,000 years.

So why can't most D&D worlds even figure out rudimentary Renaissance inventions?

I said I have a theory, and here it is.

I believe it's the fault of magic (hence the punchline of my lame joke).

After all, why spend hundreds of hours studying and thousands of hours designing and building and scrapping and re-building prototypes until you finally build something, when you could spend an hour asking a mage to whip it up for you?

Magic is the technology of D&D. Brilliant minds in D&D worlds don't spend their time figuring out how to send electrons down a copper wire, or how to pressurize steam until it can power huge pieces of metal. They're much too busy figuring out how to put together a man-shaped pile of parts and animate it into a golem, or how to open a portal to a new plane that's never been explored before, or how to build a staff that's more powerful than the last staff they built.

That's what D&D invention is all about.

Or so I reckon.

yar

mdt wrote:

I've always treated it as 'You can manifest water based on how much is available from the environment'.

I know, it's not RAW

It doesn't go against RAW, because there is no rule "where" the water originates. In other words, it is entirely up to the GM which of these results are what is happening:

1) Water is created from nothing.

2) Water is created by displacing water from the environment.

LOL,

I believe it's the fault of magic (hence the punchline of my lame joke).

After all, why spend hundreds of hours studying and thousands of hours designing and building and scrapping and re-building prototypes until you finally build something, when you could spend an hour asking a mage to whip it up for you?

Magic is the technology of D&D. Brilliant minds in D&D worlds don't spend their time figuring out how to send electrons down a copper wire, or how to pressurize steam until it can power huge pieces of metal. They're much too busy figuring out how to put together a man-shaped pile of parts and animate it into a golem, or how to open a portal to a new plane that's never been explored before, or how to build a staff that's more powerful than the last staff they built.

That's what D&D invention is all about.

Or so I reckon.

I agree completely. This is without a doubt the only reason I can come up with, and use it in my games routinely. If you are interested, this thread has mention of a place on my world where the people had to develop technology because magic had been made untenable. It's the last posting from me in the thread. I think you might like it DM.

I've been going over my old Mythbuster episodes during the past couple months (while waiting for the new episode... it knocked my socks off by the way ;).

There was one episode where old clay pots were found with traces of an acid inside, and a metal rod with wire wound around it. The only thing this could be is a battery.
They made some themselves, with period materials, and found that while the charge was incredibly small and random, it would actually work. Could've been used for things like electro-plating and such.

Now, granted.. the actual theory of electromagnetism and creating something even as powerful as a AA battery would take more research and breakthroughs in conventional scientific thought than a single person could be expected to do in a single lifetime.

The Bahgdad Battery did cause a panic and no one will accept the possiblity in orthodox circles because it means that all those solid gold items sat in museums maybe gold plated. They did use goldleaf a lot which may have in fact just be plating.

If you wanted to get technical then dwarves using lodestone/magnatite Stone Shaped and copper wire coils/brushes and you have the beginnings of a dynamo. Now throw in a water elemental "running" around and you have a pocket hydro-electric station.

The problem that "we" have is that the idea of man in ages past making such things is difficult to understand. People forget that our brain stopped any meaningful development 100K years ago and that "stone age" man had the same reasoning abilities as "modern" man.
A common misconception is ancient man= Dumba$$ modern man= Smart.
Yea, cos we are soooooo smart ;)
The issue boils down to "Necessity is the Mother of Invention".
And warfare...

DM_Blake wrote:

Phooey!

How many dwarven engineers does it take to invent a lightbulb?

One: He asks a mage to whip up a continual light on a little glass sphere and then heads down the street to spend his time drinking ale and diddling wenches.

By the way, I posted this to make a point, then realized it doesn't make a point...

My every so subtly misapplied point is this:

I believe there is a reason why we don't have (normally) guns or aluminum or electricity or internal combustion or internal plumbing or derigibles or railroad or cotton gins or any other semi-modern or modern invetnions in D&D.

When you think about it, D&D worlds (all of them) seem to presuppose that people have been here for ages. Many D&D worlds have people living the same way for tens of thousands of years. And some of those races (evles, I'm looking at you) are highly intellectual, brilliant even, and live seemingly forever.

Why can't any of them manage even some of the simpler things found in Earth history?

I mean, from the (Earthly) invention of fully articulated plate armor to the invention of gunpowder was less than 100 years, if memory serves. However, in D&D, full plate has existed for millennia but nobody (in most worlds) has even figured out how to make a good blasting powder, let alone black powder suitable for muskets.

It's even stranger when you consider that Earthly humans only lived about 70 years, and not all of that was productive years (childhood, dotage), so most brillinat inventers had at most 50 years or so to whip up their inventions. Many had quite a bit less.

Yet in D&D worlds, there are races who live hundreds and even thousands of years. Think what Thomas Edison might have done if he lived 1,000 years.

So why can't most D&D worlds even figure out rudimentary Renaissance inventions?

I said I have a theory, and here it is.

I believe it's the fault of magic (hence the punchline of my lame joke).

After all, why spend hundreds of hours studying and thousands of hours...

Personally I think that technology misses out is because of the style of game we play and that the mindset of "The Industry" is that technology doesn't "fit".

*Edit* If magic is that wide spread why aren't there canals made from Mud to Rock everywhere, disease eradicated (Purify Food and Drink) and being used to light up cities?

I had a post about all the magic that makes D&D more like the 1800's, around the time of the Technical Revolution (2nd Industrial Revolution)... then I had to step away for a while and forgot to copy/paste before hitting the button.

Anyways.

Yeah, if you take the way D&D works, and assume a decent number of spellcasters, you have a mix of technological analogues that span the 20th century (travel/communication/curative, etc).

A desert town subsisting on a virtually endless supply of water being pumped in sounds a lot like Las Vegas to me.

Standard D&D campaigns feel like they have blinders on. Although I give a nod to Eberron in trying to apply magic on a societal/world level.

Really, the only issue one might have with this spell as a cantrip is if it breaks the feel of your game. At which point, there've been a lot of good solutions presented.

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Personally, I like the idea that it pulls the water from moisture or underground water sources in the area. So a DM can say that the spell works on the small scale fine for the party, but on a large scale he can reign it in as much as he wants.

It also gives neat adventure ideas:

Imagine a location that's just barely balanced with the water it has in the area.
Now let's say that location suddenly becomes strategic for settlement, and they use Create Water to pull up enough for their population.
Since the area wasn't capable of handling all these extra people and animals needing the water, the land starts to become more arid. More Create Water is cast to get what little farmland they planted causes the outer areas to further decline.

Now in come the Druids. They attack the city and it's inhabitants, viewed as a blight on the land.
The people misunderstand, and possibly even blame the Druids for the poor soil conditions as yet another attempt to drive them out.

That's when the call for adventurers to assist the town is made...

All because of a small change to the way a cantrip works.

I've been going over my old Mythbuster episodes during the past couple months (while waiting for the new episode... it knocked my socks off by the way ;).

There was one episode where old clay pots were found with traces of an acid inside, and a metal rod with wire wound around it. The only thing this could be is a battery.
They made some themselves, with period materials, and found that while the charge was incredibly small and random, it would actually work. Could've been used for things like electro-plating and such.

Now, granted.. the actual theory of electromagnetism and creating something even as powerful as a AA battery would take more research and breakthroughs in conventional scientific thought than a single person could be expected to do in a single lifetime.

However, if you took a long lived race (so one person could remain dedicated on a subject for longer than 50 years of testing and idea breakthroughs), and a relatively remote place where he could do his research in peace (not mid-adventuring).. well, I'm not against the idea of a Gnome named Tesla living in the game world.

Myth-Busters has always fasinated me as well. Great stuff.

An adventurer Fighter coming up with it on his own though? Not really.
If the player was really, really interesting in the concept, and had ideas that were mechanically sound (read: equivalent to magic items in power and usage), I might allow him to hear about the Gnome and quest to learn from him and use the mentioned skills to create some nifty things.

Never said he was an adventurer. Just gave a class as fighter as a "for instance". This could be a highly trained expert or wizard as well. Keeping within the rules... an individual rich enough to afford a Decanter of Endless Water is also usually of a certain level as well.

The Pathfinder world of Golarion is one of many ages in which many technologies have been discovered and then forgotten or buried over and over.

Is it really all that ground or game breaking that someone who is knowledgeable on the subject of engineering and trained in a wide variety of crafts, has possibly re/discovered a very limited version of generating a electrical current? Because his materials and techniques are limited, at most he might make a current strong enough to power a very primitive light bulb (think candlelight). Not all that "shocking". (ba-dump-tish)

Some inventions or ideas truly belong in the realm of "Eureka!" as a intelligent person puts together the pieces of other peoples common work in a new way and "Glorious Accidents" do occur where something new comes from a mistake.

It doesn't go against RAW, because there is no rule "where" the water originates.

This actually isn't true. Create water is a Conjuration (Creation) spell, which means by RAW it does create the water out of nothing.

Really Conjuration does not mean make from nothing, it means conjure from elsewhere. Evocation is pretty much from nothing.

It is in the GM's hands to make the call just where water is conjured. Conjuration does not make something from nothing, it needs to conjure it from somewhere.

By raw it says "A creation spell manipulates matter to create an object or creature in the place the spellcaster designates" As create water is a creation spell,a GM is within his right to say "sorry not enough water here to do it all day"

By raw it says "A creation spell manipulates matter to create an object or creature in the place the spellcaster designates" As create water is a creation spell,a GM is within his right to say "sorry not enough water here to do it all day"

...assuming matter in Golarion/wherever is non-atomic, anyway.

Hydrogen and oxygen are very, very, very common. Free hydrogen less so, and there would be consequences to just ripping it out of surrounding molecules; but if magic is capable of fission (which the power of even 0-level spells pretty much mandates) then there's absolutely no justification for denying a Creation spell.

Again, if matter in your world is atomic in nature. :) I'd actually assume that it isn't, due to the discrete presence of the four alchemical elements (air, earth, fire, water) -- but be prepared for the above argument if you rule as suggested.

And I would rule you need water vapor in the air to create the water. The GM gets to pick what kind of matter is needed as the spell, nor does the school say what kind. Sure you can do it a few times but in an arid environment can you do it for 8 hours non stop?

Raw is nice and all but at the end of the Day the GM interpret RAW's intent. And the fact that some of this stuff changes on a setting by setting base

Here's an answer that could be potentially acceptable to some worldbuilders out there:

- Create Water spells have been responsible for the creation of reliable water supplies for centuries in most Golarion towns and villages.

- Decanters of Endless water have been responsible for the reliable water supplies of most Golarion metropolises, cities and large/organized grow / farming operations.

Most regional supplements don't go in the level of detail necessary to address water supply. I remember some Forgotten Realms articles that did go in that kind of detail level, explaining that dwarven cities relied on such systems of aqueducts and water creating magicks / portals to elemental plane of water. So in the absence of such official information, wouldn't you think if would be perfectly acceptable to assume that such water creating magicks (especially since they are widely available and accessible thanks to the 0 level nature of the Create Water spell) are now seeing widespread applications in a world such as Golarion?

I would like to think so.

If Golarion would be a "frontier" type of setting where every civilizations have been kicked down and the humans are rebuilding, I would understand more widespread reliance on natural rivers, lakes and water bodies, but Golarion is doing "OK" now and even if they have seen empires crumble in the past, they would have had tons of time to replace the failed infrastructure (i.e. repair watermains and re-cast the permanent Create Water spells in their holding tanks and reservoirs).

It's not a perfect analogue to this, however the Wheel of Time novels show different approaches to "magic".

In the main story region, magic is held close and used "only when necessary" style. Those that are allowed to use magic are cooped up in lofty towers.

However, there's a different landmass that's been cut off from the rest of the world for a long time. They've been using this magic as a tool... well, really.. they enslave those that can "cast magic" and use them.
They do things like scan for metals and minerals, and move earth for mining with this kind of magic. A completely different approach.

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The way society treats and approaches magic, and those with the ability to cast magic, can greatly define how much it's used in day-to-day activities.

If it's considered "taboo" or "divine" and thus should only be used for those extreme of situations... or if people think using magic is "an easy way out" and so society puts greater emphasis on "doing it yourself" rather than with magic, you might get what D&D campaign settings have.

However, if magic is allowed to run free, it would end up looking a lot more like Eberron, where magic is used for everything from communication, to transport, to mining, to building, etc.

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Really, the spells themselves don't have to have any more restrictions on them. Yes, technically Create Water could maintain a city in a drought. However, would it be something even considered in the game world?

Most regional supplements don't go in the level of detail necessary to address water supply. I remember some Forgotten Realms articles that did go in that kind of detail level, explaining that dwarven cities relied on such systems of aqueducts and water creating magicks / portals to elemental plane of water. So in the absence of such official information, wouldn't you think if would be perfectly acceptable to assume that such water creating magicks (especially since they are widely available and accessible thanks to the 0 level nature of the Create Water spell) are now seeing widespread applications in a world such as Golarion?

I think the designers have left a lot of things up to the GM to decide. Personally I like my campaign to be a little less magic rich than what you describe.

So you can assume Golarian uses magic in that way, but don't assume that it works that way in every one else's Golarian until such time as it's in print. I'll try and return the favor (I've been known to slip).

Personally, I don't think Paizo will every build that sort of detail in.

This actually isn't true. Create water is a Conjuration (Creation) spell, which means by RAW it does create the water out of nothing.

PRPG p209 disagrees with you by saying "manipulates matter ... assembled by magic"

Conjuration (the word) also means summon.

Conjuration (Creation) spells DO NO BY RAW have to create items from thin air. It is entirely consistent with the RAW that the objects are assembled from base materials found in the world around you.

You are welcome to interpret RAW to agree with your view, but your position is no proven by the rules.

It's more likely, IMO, that the spell conjures the water from the Elemental Plane thereof, than creates it from thin air.

Pulling it from elsewhere in the area sounds completely wrong. Does wall of stone tear down nearby buildings to provide it's raw materials? Nah. Having create water pull water from the environment would be a house-rule necessitating some sort of special rules for where you can and cannot cast various conjuration spells (no wall of iron in the jungle, or, worse, it works, but all of your armor and weapons were destroyed making it, because they were the only source of iron in 100 leagues! No wall of fire in the arctic, because there isn't any fire around! No wall of ice in the desert!). Even better, the spells would be usable for griefing, with metal-abhoring Druids allying with a Sorceress who can cast wall of iron, thereby pulling all of the local townsfolk iron and steel weapons into their wall, which they then rusting grasp or metal to wood into oblivion. Presto, chango, no metal weapons or armor (or tools) for the local townsfolk, as all of the iron/steel in the area has been torn apart to form walls of iron that are promptly destroyed!

Like many off-the-cuff 'fixes,' having create water pull water from the surroundings creates more problems than it solves, IMO.

If one really wants to come up with a way to foil create water, just limit the spell itself. Have it, like almost every other cantrip, not be level dependent, and only create 2 gallons of water / casting and then have any particular place where you want magic to not be able to affect the region known for it's 'unusually strong connection to the plane of fire, and correspondingly weak connection to the plane of water, such that create water only has half it's normal effect' or something (making it kind of like Athas, where create water just doesn't work as well). You might use similar effects in other areas. Irrisen, subject to a permanant winter effect by the effects of Baba Yaga's workings, might have a country-wide weakening of heat and fire effects, causing them to do less damage (-1 / die, minimum 1/die) or something. Certain shrines to Zon-Kuthon in Nidal might weaken the effects of light-based magic that enter their area. Etc.

It's more likely, IMO, that the spell conjures the water from the Elemental Plane thereof, than creates it from thin air.

Pulling it from elsewhere in the area sounds completely wrong. Does wall of stone tear down nearby buildings to provide it's raw materials? Nah. Having create water pull water from the environment would be a house-rule necessitating some sort of special rules for where you can and cannot cast various conjuration spells (no wall of iron in the jungle, or, worse, it works, but all of your armor and weapons were destroyed making it, because they were the only source of iron in 100 leagues! No wall of fire in the arctic, because there isn't any fire around! No wall of ice in the desert!). Even better, the spells would be usable for griefing, with metal-abhoring Druids allying with a Sorceress who can cast wall of iron, thereby pulling all of the local townsfolk iron and steel weapons into their wall, which they then rusting grasp or metal to wood into oblivion. Presto, chango, no metal weapons or armor (or tools) for the local townsfolk, as all of the iron/steel in the area has been torn apart to form walls of iron that are promptly destroyed!

I don't agree. I think that if it pulls it from the nearest natural source, that would be fine. For water, it would be the moisture in the air, the water in underground aquifers, etc.

In our examples :

Fire in Arctic : Fire is just highly accelerated particles. You can easily get it with oxygen and hydrogen (which are ABUNDANT in snow, obviously) and provide a spark.

Iron in Jungle : Iron is one of the most abundant metals in the world. It's in your hemoglobin. It doesn't have to pull it from the steel in your weapons, it can pull tons of it from the ground itself, minute particles.

Stone Wall : Uhm, why pull it from the buildings, it can pull it from the air (dust), from the dirt underground, thousands of places for it to be pulled from in a radius around the caster.

The problem is, it honestly doesn't solve the problem of water in the desert, because it reaches for the nearest water that is natural to relocate it.

Your solution, pulling it from elemental planes has just as big an issue. That issue is that you are punching holes to the outer planes to pull in water, iron, earth, etc. When you do that, you are opening a gateway something else can use to come over. What's to stop a malevalent water demon from hitching a ride on your create water spell? Nothing really, it's water, and if you are pulling from the plaen of water, you could get a water demon.

Pulling it from elsewhere in the area sounds completely wrong. Does wall of stone tear down nearby buildings to provide it's raw materials? *snip*

That's a slippery slope fallacy though. We aren't talking about applying the way we suggest Create Water works towards all conjuration (creation) spells, but just the one spell: Create Water.

Note, Control Water raises the water level, effectively creating water, however that's a high level spell (the one used for the Decanter by the way), and is inherently limited, so doesn't require the added limitation being offered for Create Water.

Conjuration (Creation) is generic enough to allow for multiple forms of bringing the objects into creation. I'd assume that Control Water pulls from an elemental plane somewhere.

In the case of Create Water, adding a small addendum (as a house rule) that says: "The water gained from this spell is pulled from moisture or water sources in the general area. Extended or excessive use of this spell may be limited based on the region, as per the DM's discretion."

There. The spell acts normally on a personal, adventuring level. How it reacts in the gameworld can now be controlled by the DM. It lets them say how "world impacting" the spell might be.

It gives an out for a DM other than "because society treats magic differently than our 21st century thinking science-based intellect" or "because they are dumb or greedy with magic".

Iron in Jungle : Iron is one of the most abundant metals in the world. It's in your hemoglobin. It doesn't have to pull it from the steel in your weapons, it can pull tons of it from the ground itself, minute particles.

That is true. It would also explain why it's useless for manufacturing and thus unsellable (as per the wording in the spell). The way it's making the wall from the particles it's pulling out, also make it so the iron isn't good for harvesting for making anything else.

The main issue I can see about applying this rule generically across Conjuration spells is that you'd have a hard time explaining their use in locations that literally have nothing else in them (such as extraplanar spaces). Technically the spells should work in there, but this extra clause would take that way.

Quote:

1) Water is created from nothing.

2) Water is created by displacing water from the environment.

LOL,

True, it doesn't say, so it's open to interpretation. Thanks for pointing that out.

Not to put a pin in the bubble - but I always thought that the ire of water elementals is raised due to the fact that you siphoning off some of its water.

...

That aside - regarding the OP: I think by RAW this is not a problem at all - people seem to misunderstand how rare and special magic is. Sure, a first level cleric creates water at will. But there are only 1 in 10000 people that are a cleric. Maybe less.

A party of heroes is - of course - heroic; but the vast majority of people are mundane in the extreme. Even a commoner with class levels should typically get fighter or rogue (warrior or expert) levels. Casters (of any denomination) should be quite rare.

So yes, a hypothetical family of well coordinated education (or maybe a small convent or monastery in a desert) can achieve irrigation. But doing it on a scale that allows you to take an abundance of desert and even making it arid would be a tremendous feat - actually turning it into fertile fields would be something that even a set of miracles might have difficulty achieving.

That aside - regarding the OP: I think by RAW this is not a problem at all - people seem to misunderstand how rare and special magic is. Sure, a first level cleric creates water at will. But there are only 1 in 10000 people that are a cleric. Maybe less.

If you read the DMG, it actually gives demographic tables for creating cities.

Clerics and Druids are both 1d6 + community modifier, for the highest level of that class that is in the location.

If we take your number (10,000), that falls into the high end of a Small town (up to 12k). A small town's modifier is +0.

That means you have at least a 1st level Druid and 1st level Cleric in the average 10,000 person town. The average Small town is closer to 3rd level, which means there's about 6 people that can cast Create Water at-will (one 3rd level cleric and druid, and two 1st level clerics and two 1st level druids).

You can add 3 more Adepts (one 3rd, and two 1st) to that as well, although that's only 9 more castings per day (for the average Small town).

In a metropolis (25k+), you could end up having as high as 248 unlimited casting types, as well as an additional 900+ castings(depending on slots from ability scores) if all the adepts and paladins used all their slots on create water as well.
Fun thought experiment on that one... dat's a lot of watah!
Continued Thought Experiment

But while magic might be "rare", clerics and druids are frequent enough that you'll find, on average, at least one in every grouping of 50 people or so (the average Thorp).

*Note* At least, that's the game assumption. YMMV of course, but that's what's spelled out in the DMG.

I simply don't like the idea of 0 level spells that don't have limits like other spells. It's not that it's too powerful, it just doesn't feel right in the campaigns I want to play in. I still don't understand the need of this change and I'm still playing them like before...

You can add 3 more Adepts (one 3rd, and two 1st) to that as well, although that's only 9 more castings per day (for the average Small town).

and don't forget that Adepts do not cast unlimited cantrips per day, You can houserule that in, but it's just that, Adepts are limited to casting it per day. In my game I want the PCs to be better than everyone else, so I simply don't give NPCs PC classes. You'll encounter NPC druids, but an NPC druid is merely loaded up on adept levels. That theif, he's an expert/warrior multiclass. In order to have NPC wizards I created the Acolyte, an arcane mirror to the Adept that gets arcane bond at second level instead of just familiar. That effectively solved any unlimited orisons effecting the game world, since there are no NPCs with unlimited Orisons.

I simply don't like the idea of 0 level spells that don't have limits like other spells. It's not that it's too powerful, it just doesn't feel right in the campaigns I want to play in. I still don't understand the need of this change and I'm still playing them like before...

I believe the mind-set was to give the casters something "magical" they could always do to try and minimize the issue of "we fight a combat and then rest".

Ultimately, how you run your game is of course your choice.

mdt wrote:

Iron in Jungle : Iron is one of the most abundant metals in the world. It's in your hemoglobin. It doesn't have to pull it from the steel in your weapons, it can pull tons of it from the ground itself, minute particles.

That is true. It would also explain why it's useless for manufacturing and thus unsellable (as per the wording in the spell). The way it's making the wall from the particles it's pulling out, also make it so the iron isn't good for harvesting for making anything else.

The main issue I can see about applying this rule generically across Conjuration spells is that you'd have a hard time explaining their use in locations that literally have nothing else in them (such as extraplanar spaces). Technically the spells should work in there, but this extra clause would take that way.

True,

Your solution, pulling it from elemental planes has just as big an issue. That issue is that you are punching holes to the outer planes to pull in water, iron, earth, etc. When you do that, you are opening a gateway something else can use to come over. What's to stop a malevalent water demon from hitching a ride on your create water spell? Nothing really, it's water, and if you are pulling from the plane of water, you could get a water demon.

Well, wouldn't that explain why there is not a lot of towns/cities that do that? A 1st level caster that accidently summons a water element would have their hands full.

The answer is, the deity of cleric is important here! remember that orison's come from the god the cleric worships. A god of the desert is probably not going to allow more water then one needs to live maybe none at all. A god of balance is surely not going to allow this. Remember that a god doesn't enjoy there powers sqaundered abusing a spell like this could warrant a geas being cast on the cleric or losing there spells till they atone. If my player tried that, depending on diety may cause them to lose there magic...if not then may well anger local gods/deities and that can be just as bad!

Even beyond the deity's patience what motivation would a cleric have to spend all of his time creating water? I'd imagine he'd much rather spread word of his deity (most likely in adventure or sermon)/ do the will of his deity / apprentice other would be clerics of his deity. A cleric whose sole purpose is land irrigation better be doing it as part of his worship in some way.

I have given some thought to at will create water.

1) As others have mentioned, it takes more than water to make desert into farmland (or other life sustaining area).

2) The Gods of the clerics (or druids) would need to agree to allow the endless water to be created. They may not want mortals to tinker substantially with the environment or to risk it going back and forth to desert due to the availability or unavailability of the right type of caster.

3) The world has been around for a long time with at will use of cantrips. There likely are numerous reasons why there are not a lot of town/cities that rely on create water for survival.

+1

Besides that, there could be SOMETHING ... that takes the water.

See in FR, the desert of Anauroch was created by the fell magic of the Phaerimm IIRC. Well we don't want this in Golarion, but .... What if the Aboleth (as an example) had cast something like a GREATER EMPOWERED WATER DRAINING thingy permanently on a region, so that :

1) They can have their own posh underground seas and such ...
2) No pesky humans can live long above them to discover and threaten their next plans for world domination ?

And aside from that ... can you really trust these clerics ? No, we can't my precioussss. trying to screw you out of your water, they are. plotting behind your back ... you get the idea.

If you read the DMG, it actually gives demographic tables for creating cities.

And good thing Paizo left those rules behind. This kind of stuff should be up to the GM to decide (or maybe campaign setting).

mdt wrote:

Your solution, pulling it from elemental planes has just as big an issue. That issue is that you are punching holes to the outer planes to pull in water, iron, earth, etc. When you do that, you are opening a gateway something else can use to come over. What's to stop a malevalent water demon from hitching a ride on your create water spell? Nothing really, it's water, and if you are pulling from the plane of water, you could get a water demon.

Well, wouldn't that explain why there is not a lot of towns/cities that do that? A 1st level caster that accidently summons a water element would have their hands full.

Sort of, but then, you are also negating the spell as no one would use it if there was a 1% chance of summoning a demon or elemental, which goes in the opposite direction, keeping the caster from wanting to use the spell. I don't think a 0 level spell should have that issue.

Anyone who thinks that a desert is a field without water is sorely mistaken.

Once you've got past the deforestation and the leeching of nutrients out of the soil and the loss of anything like topsoil, the absence of nitrogen, a type of 'soil' that drains water too quickly to support most plants...

I'm no kind of expert but it's pretty clear that whilst access to Create Water might help to prevent desertification, and could contribute to development of verdant soils in a desert, bounteous supplies of water are not the be all and end all here.

Deserts come in multiple varieties. the scientific defintion is defined by annual rainfall. Antartica by this defintion is a frozen desert. The Sahara class sand dunes would be the other extreme.

Sort of, but then, you are also negating the spell as no one would use it if there was a 1% chance of summoning a demon or elemental, which goes in the opposite direction, keeping the caster from wanting to use the spell. I don't think a 0 level spell should have that issue.

Given how many players throughout history have been willing to say Hastur, Hastur, Hastur, or call upon Pazuzu, giving *any* conjuration spells the ability to bring along elementals or demons or whatever would probably just be fuel for mad CharOp fantasy.

I just came up with a scenario in my head, requiring leadership, that would allow someone to plague a city with a swarm of dozens of maddened water elementals, using this tactic. If Acid Splash had a similar chance of calling up Ooze Para-Elementals (and why wouldn't it? It's also conjuration/creation!), a pissed-off swarm of acidic Ooze para-elementals also becomes a possibility.

As for 0 level spells being able to reach across the planes to tap extradimensional energies and forces, it's already been done. Cure Minor Wounds in 3.5 used conjuration (healing) to tap into the Positive Energy Plane, and it looks like Stabilize, in Pathfinder, also conjuration (healing) works the same way. So it's definitely not beyond the power of a cantrip to reach across planar barriers and brings stuff back.

So you can assume Golarian uses magic in that way, but don't assume that it works that way in every one else's Golarian until such time as it's in print. I'll try and return the favor (I've been known to slip).

Personally, I don't think Paizo will every build that sort of detail in.

And I hope they don't: I can make up or think up that kind of minutiae if I want to... but a product full of the said minutiae would be piss poor and not really relevant to setting identity. Give me cultures, nations, races, but please keep the details on how toilets work! :)

mdt wrote:

Sort of, but then, you are also negating the spell as no one would use it if there was a 1% chance of summoning a demon or elemental, which goes in the opposite direction, keeping the caster from wanting to use the spell. I don't think a 0 level spell should have that issue.

Given how many players throughout history have been willing to say Hastur, Hastur, Hastur, or call upon Pazuzu, giving *any* conjuration spells the ability to bring along elementals or demons or whatever would probably just be fuel for mad CharOp fantasy.

I just came up with a scenario in my head, requiring leadership, that would allow someone to plague a city with a swarm of dozens of maddened water elementals, using this tactic. If Acid Splash had a similar chance of calling up Ooze Para-Elementals (and why wouldn't it? It's also conjuration/creation!), a pissed-off swarm of acidic Ooze para-elementals also becomes a possibility.

As for 0 level spells being able to reach across the planes to tap extradimensional energies and forces, it's already been done. Cure Minor Wounds in 3.5 used conjuration (healing) to tap into the Positive Energy Plane, and it looks like Stabilize, in Pathfinder, also conjuration (healing) works the same way. So it's definitely not beyond the power of a cantrip to reach across planar barriers and brings stuff back.

Guess it comes down to GM preference. I've always, again, worked the healing spells as conjuring positive energy from the environment (or directly from a god, depending on the caster).

Mistwalker wrote:

mdt wrote:

Your solution, pulling it from elemental planes has just as big an issue. That issue is that you are punching holes to the outer planes to pull in water, iron, earth, etc. When you do that, you are opening a gateway something else can use to come over. What's to stop a malevalent water demon from hitching a ride on your create water spell? Nothing really, it's water, and if you are pulling from the plane of water, you could get a water demon.

Well, wouldn't that explain why there is not a lot of towns/cities that do that? A 1st level caster that accidently summons a water element would have their hands full.

Sort of, but then, you are also negating the spell as no one would use it if there was a 1% chance of summoning a demon or elemental, which goes in the opposite direction, keeping the caster from wanting to use the spell. I don't think a 0 level spell should have that issue.

I wasn't talking about a percentage chance of it happening.

Think of a huge pool. If you take a drop from it, no problem. Even a few thousand drops, no problem. But a continual drain will cause a current, drawing attention to the drain and perhaps inconvenience some residents of the water elemental plane.

So, a short term water shortage helped along with some create water spells would not likely draw attention to "drain", nor would adventurers or travelers using it in water deprived areas.

However, it would certainly be a nice adventuring opportunity for a group of adventurers to have to deal with an upset water creature...(evil GM grin)

"Consumed" = a creature drinks the water. You could get an army of clerics casting the spell, but a day later the water vanishes. You'd need the clerics to keep at it 7 days a week. And it'd be a lot of clerics. Basically... this wouldn't be THAT much different than using more mundane means of agricultural engineering to irrigate land; it would just use a lot of clerics instead of ditch digging and aqueduct building, and would be a lot more prone to peril if a cleric sleeps in, say...

The spell probably SHOULD have been turned into a 1st level spell, or made so that the water vanishes in a few rounds if not consumed, though, to prevent this kind of relatively silly concept. Ah well.

"Consumed" = a creature drinks the water. You could get an army of clerics casting the spell, but a day later the water vanishes. You'd need the clerics to keep at it 7 days a week. And it'd be a lot of clerics. Basically... this wouldn't be THAT much different than using more mundane means of agricultural engineering to irrigate land; it would just use a lot of clerics instead of ditch digging and aqueduct building, and would be a lot more prone to peril if a cleric sleeps in, say...

The spell probably SHOULD have been turned into a 1st level spell, or made so that the water vanishes in a few rounds if not consumed, though, to prevent this kind of relatively silly concept. Ah well.

I'd rather it be a 1st level spell and the water not disappear at all, but I agree, it's a silly concept. Just love exploring little things like this to see what happens when the rules change. :)

I think I'll make it a 1st level spell in my game but have the water not disappear. I think that would be fair.

Kaisoku wrote:

You can add 3 more Adepts (one 3rd, and two 1st) to that as well, although that's only 9 more castings per day (for the average Small town).

and don't forget that Adepts do not cast unlimited cantrips per day, You can houserule that in, but it's just that, Adepts are limited to casting it per day. In my game I want the PCs to be better than everyone else, so I simply don't give NPCs PC classes. You'll encounter NPC druids, but an NPC druid is merely loaded up on adept levels. That theif, he's an expert/warrior multiclass. In order to have NPC wizards I created the Acolyte, an arcane mirror to the Adept that gets arcane bond at second level instead of just familiar. That effectively solved any unlimited orisons effecting the game world, since there are no NPCs with unlimited Orisons.

And contrarily in my games, about 30% of the population have PC class levels. Including a fair sprawl of high-ish level characters. (Heck, I tend to have somewhere around 5 casters per class capable of 9th level spells per metropolis)

lastknightleft wrote:

Kaisoku wrote:

You can add 3 more Adepts (one 3rd, and two 1st) to that as well, although that's only 9 more castings per day (for the average Small town).

and don't forget that Adepts do not cast unlimited cantrips per day, You can houserule that in, but it's just that, Adepts are limited to casting it per day. In my game I want the PCs to be better than everyone else, so I simply don't give NPCs PC classes. You'll encounter NPC druids, but an NPC druid is merely loaded up on adept levels. That theif, he's an expert/warrior multiclass. In order to have NPC wizards I created the Acolyte, an arcane mirror to the Adept that gets arcane bond at second level instead of just familiar. That effectively solved any unlimited orisons effecting the game world, since there are no NPCs with unlimited Orisons.

And contrarily in my games, about 30% of the population have PC class levels. Including a fair sprawl of high-ish level characters. (Heck, I tend to have somewhere around 5 casters per class capable of 9th level spells per metropolis)

You prefer higher powered fantasy, I prefer lower powered fantasy, NPCs in my worlds tap out at 10th level, average level being about 3, and above 5th level is someone with a hell of a reputation.

And contrarily in my games, about 30% of the population have PC class levels. Including a fair sprawl of high-ish level characters. (Heck, I tend to have somewhere around 5 casters per class capable of 9th level spells per metropolis)

And in my campaign, the city the players come from is under permanent martial law, so service in the military is mandatory. So everyone has a minimum of 5 class levels (there may be some NPC class levels in there, but in general, the entire city is heavily trained).

for the low cost of 9000 gp you too can rule an entire desert realm

www.d20fsrd.com wrote:

Decanter of Endless Water

Aura moderate transmutation; CL 9th

Slot —; Price 9,000 gp; Weight 2 lbs.

Description

If the stopper is removed from this ordinary-Looking flask and a command word spoken, an amount of fresh or salt water pours out. Separate command words determine the type of water as well as the volume and velocity.

* “Stream” pours out 1 gallon per round.
* “Fountain” produces a 5-Foot-Long stream at 5 gallons per round.
* “Geyser” produces a 20-Foot-Long, 1-Foot-Wide stream at 30 gallons per round.

The geyser effect exerts considerable pressure, requiring the holder to make a DC 12 Strength check to avoid being knocked down each round the effect is maintained. In addition, the powerful force of the geyser deals 1d4 points of damage per round to a creature that is subjected to it. The geyser can only affect one target per round, but the user can direct the beam of water without needing to make an attack role to strike the target since the geyser's constant flow allows for ample opportunity to aim. Creatures with the fire subtype take 2d4 points of damage per round from the geyser rather than 1d4. The command word must be spoken to stop it.

Construction

Requirements Craft Wondrous Item, control water; Cost 4,500 gp

stick that in a fountain, or up in a water tower thing, and irrigate the neighboring area for....ever

-t

Or until thieves steal it. Then the lynchpin of the entire society's welfare is gone. At which point, the leader has to contract adventurers to track down the thieves and return the decanter, before his little kingdom withers back into the dust from whence it came. Sounds like the makings of an adventure to me...

I'd take the position of for every force there is an opposite reaction. So for every cleric that may dump water in deserts there might be another force doing the opposite that balance out what the cleric might try to do. So for everyone person who tries to turn a desert into a forest there would a force turning forests into deserts.

Or until thieves steal it. Then the lynchpin of the entire society's welfare is gone. At which point, the leader has to contract adventurers to track down the thieves and return the decanter, before his little kingdom withers back into the dust from whence it came. Sounds like the makings of an adventure to me...

Unless you hire a wizard/ cleric to enchant the entire fountain as one giant magic item.

I'd take the position of for every force there is an opposite reaction. So for every cleric that may dump water in deserts there might be another force doing the opposite that balance out what the cleric might try to do. So for everyone person who tries to turn a desert into a forest there would a force turning forests into deserts.

Dumping a large quantity of water into the deserts causes the billions of locust eggs that have been buried in the sand for 20 years to hatch. The multiple locust swarms decimate the village the cleric was trying to rule. Silly cleric.

I'd take the position of for every force there is an opposite reaction. So for every cleric that may dump water in deserts there might be another force doing the opposite that balance out what the cleric might try to do. So for everyone person who tries to turn a desert into a forest there would a force turning forests into deserts.

So for every thing your players try to do, you'll just make some force come along and undo their efforts? That seems kind of adversarial, to me.

IMO, any potential issue should be dealt with at the rules level, before it hits the table, rather than be used to frustrate your friends.

That's what fantasy football is for.