Introducing the Seven Dooms for Sandpoint Player’s Guide

As for why its not six books. We posted a while ago that six book APs were going away for the foreseeable future. They eat up a LOT of resources, the middle books usually do not sell as well as the beginning, and if the plot/themes didnt interest someone, thats a full six months they would need to wait before there was something new coming out.

While I can well understand the reasons you just listed, it still feels unsatisfying to not have proper lead-ins for the AP's which start at higher level. It's a huge strain on players to have to create level 10 or 11 characters with all the possibilities of feats/equipment/spells which already exist in PF2E (and I imagine it will get even more so as the edition progresses with more releases, as it is wont to).

I would just wish that there would be a.) better lead-ins to the high-level adventure paths, like with the Seven Dooms For Sandpoint player guide or b.) better connections between the low-level adventure paths and the high-level ones. I know that would take up some creative juice and some human ressources to do either one of those things, but since you guys decided to just not do six-parters anymore, I think the onus is then on you to make the higher-level ones more appealing to get into for players (not GM's, since I really want to run, for example, Fists of the Ruby Phoenix some day, but I desperately am looking for some way to get the players there without them having to create level 11 characters from scratch).

And please do not take this as an ask or even opportunity to stop doing high-level adventure paths. These are the reason I am suscribed at all.

I think the onus is then on you to make the higher-level ones more appealing to get into for players (not GM's, since I really want to run, for example, Fists of the Ruby Phoenix some day, but I desperately am looking for some way to get the players there without them having to create level 11 characters from scratch).

There are several PF2 APs going from 1st to 11th level: Abomination Vaults, Quest for the Frozen Flame, Outlaws of Alkenstar, Gatewalkers, and Sky King's Tomb. You could even tweak the beginning (streamlining or removing parts of the island exploration "qualifying round") to accommodate the 13th level PCs from Seasons of Ghosts.

Fists of the Ruby Phoenix has easy tie-ins ("make a name for yourselves," some macguffin item, etc.) to just about any set of adventures...

The whole point of a Player's Guide for an Adventure Path that starts at a level higher than 1 is meant to make it a better lead-in for that Adventure Path IF you're not bringing in a group that's played through a previous set of adventures or Adventure Path. I tried to make Stolen Fate's guide do this but, admittedly, I came in at the proverbial 11th hour to take over that project. Seven Dooms for Sandpoint is the first "above 1st level" Player's Guide I've written, and Curtain Call will be the second, and that one has some very specific ways that ANY 1st to 10th level adventure path could set it up, but I might also tinker a bit with creating an interactive narrative to help the players create 11th level characters for that one too. Just... be aware that something like that would be at a minimum 3 times the size of what I did for this Player's Guide for Seven Dooms... and possibly even larger.

And since there comes a point when the length of a free Player's Guide becomes non-viable for us to produce and edit and layout on our schedule, well... there IS a theoretical upper limit to a Player's Guide's length. Not sure what that limit is off the top of my head, but I'm sure we'll figure it out sometime!

magnuskn wrote:

I think the onus is then on you to make the higher-level ones more appealing to get into for players (not GM's, since I really want to run, for example, Fists of the Ruby Phoenix some day, but I desperately am looking for some way to get the players there without them having to create level 11 characters from scratch).

There are several PF2 APs going from 1st to 11th level: Abomination Vaults, Quest for the Frozen Flame, Outlaws of Alkenstar, Gatewalkers, and Sky King's Tomb. You could even tweak the beginning (streamlining or removing parts of the island exploration "qualifying round") to accommodate the 13th level PCs from Seasons of Ghosts.

Fists of the Ruby Phoenix has easy tie-ins ("make a name for yourselves," some macguffin item, etc.) to just about any set of adventures...

Given that most other teams in the tournament are adventurers who are famous for other things, I'm a little befuddled by this complaint about Fists of the Ruby Phoenix in particular. There are teams there from most other continents on the planet - your successful heroes should be able to make it to Tian Xia if the competition interests them.

Stolen Fate likewise staples onto the end of other APs well, as it just wants heroes who can be swept up into a grand prophecy-touched adventure, and Curtain Call seems to explicitly be built for characters who cleared a lower-level AP.

there IS a theoretical upper limit to a Player's Guide's length. Not sure what that limit is off the top of my head, but I'm sure we'll figure it out sometime!

That does sound like a promise.

Given that most other teams in the tournament are adventurers who are famous for other things, I'm a little befuddled by this complaint about Fists of the Ruby Phoenix in particular. There are teams there from most other continents on the planet - your successful heroes should be able to make it to Tian Xia if the competition interests them.

Stolen Fate likewise staples onto the end of other APs well, as it just wants heroes who can be swept up into a grand prophecy-touched adventure, and Curtain Call seems to explicitly be built for characters who cleared a lower-level AP.

I took Fists of the Ruby Phoenix as an example, because it is the one AP I really, really want to run one day, but the same goes for Stolen Fate and any other high-level AP which is gonna be released in the future ("Curtain Call" certainly sounds interesting... anybody has info what it will be about?).

And, yeah, I actually am planning on running Season of Ghosts before it and either just slowing down the XP gain a bit in it or just have the PC's start at higher level and slowing down their XP gain in FotRP until they've reached an appropiate level. Seemed like a better lead-in than bringing people over from Abomination Vaults or Gatewalkers. But I had to stretch a bit in my imagination to get there.

The point I'm trying to make is that we, as GM's, have to do the legwork a lot to get player characters to the start line for high-level AP's and a bit more help from Paizo for a good lead-in or better connective tissue between their low-level AP's and their high-level AP's would be very appreciated, since full 1 - 20 AP's seem to be out of the question by now.

"Curtain Call" certainly sounds interesting... anybody has info what it will be about?

AFAICT, the idea is that someone decided to create a great play based on the PC's past heroics and convinced them to help. And then things do not go as expected (surprise, surprise).

The Paizo Products forum has threads about the fist two parts already.

Very nice, that sounds like a great idea. :)

James Jacobs wrote:

there IS a theoretical upper limit to a Player's Guide's length. Not sure what that limit is off the top of my head, but I'm sure we'll figure it out sometime!

That does sound like a promise.

All I promised is that we'll figure out what the upper limit to a Player's Guide length is. I doubt we'll make that limit public since there's nothing much to be gained from it, and it certainly doesn't promise specific content for any upcoming Player's Guides.

The Raven Black wrote:

James Jacobs wrote:

there IS a theoretical upper limit to a Player's Guide's length. Not sure what that limit is off the top of my head, but I'm sure we'll figure it out sometime!

That does sound like a promise.

All I promised is that we'll figure out what the upper limit to a Player's Guide length is. I doubt we'll make that limit public since there's nothing much to be gained from it, and it certainly doesn't promise specific content for any upcoming Player's Guides.

That's quite OK. I took it as a promise that at least once (and hopefully more) we will have a Player's Guide filled to the brim with awesome content.

Like this one but with maybe even more pages :-)

So, a big thank you.

Finally took the time to read this one through. Awesome work. Thanks a lot.

And I agree that the Your first adventure part brings huge value.

Just a small note that it forces the PCs to be all locals or all foreigners. Nothing is written to help mixed parties get together.

It seems easy to homebrew, by adjusting the first level obstacles to the number of PCs in the relevant category, run them separately and have the whole party get together for the second level obstacles (Entry 8). The GM will have to adjudicate any first level Reputation increases though.

A sidebar giving this kind of guidelines would have made it even better than it is, which is already excellent.

Also I love the backgrounds. The Eager Scofflaw would have fit my Rise of the Runelords PC perfectly. I actually made up a somewhat similar "Sandpoint's Hellfire Club" as part of his background.

I was considering one day playing this with a kid of my RotRL PC and now I am wondering whether a Eager Scofflaw copy of him or a pretty opposite Runelord Scholar would fit best.

That is how inspiring all these backgrounds are.

I have to say I really like APs that let you start out at a level that's not 1. Sometimes you just have an idea for a character that makes more sense as a "somewhat experienced individual." I don't need to have played the entire backstory of a level 6 character (or w/e) to play them.

Particularly if the backstory is something that would qualify you for several levels, but isn't something that normally happens in this sort of game. Last survivor of a mercenary regiment, marooned on a deserted island, etc.

Finally took the time to read this one through. Awesome work. Thanks a lot.

And I agree that the Your first adventure part brings huge value.

Just a small note that it forces the PCs to be all locals or all foreigners. Nothing is written to help mixed parties get together.

It seems easy to homebrew, by adjusting the first level obstacles to the number of PCs in the relevant category, run them separately and have the whole party get together for the second level obstacles (Entry 8). The GM will have to adjudicate any first level Reputation increases though.

A sidebar giving this kind of guidelines would have made it even better than it is, which is already excellent.

Originally I had planned for there to be several more paths through this section, which would have included the idea of a mixed group—some being local, some being not local—getting together. But I had to consolidate things as much as possible in order to prevent this experiment from becoming too enormous and time consuming to write, edit, and lay out. That's all part of why I've been warning folks that this isn't likely to become a regular feature of a Player's Guide—something like this can be as complicated and lengthy as an entire adventure, after all, and keeping it as quick and to-the-point as possible is important.

I have to say I really like APs that let you start out at a level that's not 1. Sometimes you just have an idea for a character that makes more sense as a "somewhat experienced individual." I don't need to have played the entire backstory of a level 6 character (or w/e) to play them.

Particularly if the backstory is something that would qualify you for several levels, but isn't something that normally happens in this sort of game. Last survivor of a mercenary regiment, marooned on a deserted island, etc.

We did get "marooned on a (almost) deserted island" beginning of an AP. I loved it too.

The Raven Black wrote:

Finally took the time to read this one through. Awesome work. Thanks a lot.

And I agree that the Your first adventure part brings huge value.

Just a small note that it forces the PCs to be all locals or all foreigners. Nothing is written to help mixed parties get together.

It seems easy to homebrew, by adjusting the first level obstacles to the number of PCs in the relevant category, run them separately and have the whole party get together for the second level obstacles (Entry 8). The GM will have to adjudicate any first level Reputation increases though.

A sidebar giving this kind of guidelines would have made it even better than it is, which is already excellent.

Originally I had planned for there to be several more paths through this section, which would have included the idea of a mixed group—some being local, some being not local—getting together. But I had to consolidate things as much as possible in order to prevent this experiment from becoming too enormous and time consuming to write, edit, and lay out. That's all part of why I've been warning folks that this isn't likely to become a regular feature of a Player's Guide—something like this can be as complicated and lengthy as an entire adventure, after all, and keeping it as quick and to-the-point as possible is important.

I must say I admire the effort and mastery you put in all this Player's Guide and especially in the First Adventure part. It is really excellent.

I just want to add my voice to those who are enjoying the Choose Your Own Adventure History. Our group just finished it and it was excellent. Especially considering the resources it took, I really appreciated it!