Iconic Evolution: Amiri

I think whatever physics allow dragons to fly would probably allow for strength to be tied to any number of internal or external sources and not have only one specific look justify it. As far as I am concerned this is a good thing.

The only real advantage of gym machines is not needing a spotter. Free weights are typically a better choice to ensure you build up stabilizing muscles along with the larger groups, and to make sure that you aren't favoring one side over the other. The only real changes in strength training have been scientific, such as nutritional changes, steroids, and how to avoid less obvious damage caused by body building, such as kidney and liver problems.

The trapezius is a back muscle, but it's easily visible from the front in most people. It's the tapering at the bottom of the neck. For some people it's a smooth concave curve down to their shoulders, but in stronger people, or when flexed, it becomes convex. It's the muscle responsible for stabilizing held/carried weight. With the size of the sword Amiri is lifting, her traps would grow quickly and without extra effort. Even traveling with a normal 8-10 pound greatsword on your shoulder would be enough to build them up substantially.

Amiri's midriff has very narrow obliques, the muscles that run along the side of the abdominal muscles. This, combined with the smooth shading on the underside of her abdomen give her the appearance of having diastasis recti. To some people that line down the middle of her abs will look like muscular definition, but anyone who notices the missing obliques will see that line as damage. Obliques provide rotational strength, so you should expect to see them built up as well.

Regarding the chimp super strength thing, that's sort of a myth. Chimps are pound for pound about 1/3 stronger than we are, but this is easily attributed to muscle length in their arms and a greater density of fast twitch muscle fibers. Basically their arms are leg strength, their legs are arm strength, and they fatigue quickly. And if you've ever looked at pictures of bald chimps, you know they're pretty built.

Two things: to me her stomach definitely looks like the linea alba is visible, which serves to emphasize her strength, and even if she's not perfectly correct from an anatomical point of view it works for me. And secondarily, click the link I gave regarding chimps - yes, their strength has been greatly exaggerated, but they're still very strong.

thejeff wrote:

If giants had weak and inefficient muscle fibers, they wouldn't be able to stand. At least the bigger ones.

The square-cube law is just sitting in the corner whimpering to itself.

Which doesn't mean that stronger giants wouldn't be illustrated with more muscles than a weaker one of the same kind.

I just explain all of this via "biology in a world in which magic is real has evolved to absorb and make use of ambient magic" which handles why dragons can fly, giants can stand, why wholly mundane high level fighters can be shot with a staggering number of arrows without major inconvenience, and more.

This has been my theory for quite a while as well - there's just no real world explanation for why high level characters can reliably survive falling from the stratosphere or why dragons flying a hundred of feet per second can perform instantaneous 180s - but only at certain points in their movement.

Plus, as mentioned earlier in the thread, there's clearly some deviation from real world physics in one way or another. Humans look roughly human in Pathfinder, but have the same average strength regardless of sex. To me, that implies that on the whole women in Pathfinder are stronger than they look. :)

...I also think that same magical force is probably what prevents this thread from dying. :P

PossibleCabbage wrote:

thejeff wrote:

If giants had weak and inefficient muscle fibers, they wouldn't be able to stand. At least the bigger ones.

The square-cube law is just sitting in the corner whimpering to itself.

Which doesn't mean that stronger giants wouldn't be illustrated with more muscles than a weaker one of the same kind.

I just explain all of this via "biology in a world in which magic is real has evolved to absorb and make use of ambient magic" which handles why dragons can fly, giants can stand, why wholly mundane high level fighters can be shot with a staggering number of arrows without major inconvenience, and more.

This has been my theory for quite a while as well - there's just no real world explanation for why high level characters can reliably survive falling from the stratosphere or why dragons flying a hundred of feet per second can perform instantaneous 180s - but only at certain points in their movement.

Plus, as mentioned earlier in the thread, there's clearly some deviation from real world physics in one way or another. Humans look roughly human in Pathfinder, but have the same average strength regardless of sex. To me, that implies that on the whole women in Pathfinder are stronger than they look. :)

...I also think that same magical force is probably what prevents this thread from dying. :P

Genre rules.

I prefer not to actually try to work out in-world physics/magic to support rules based on genre logic. Anything I come up tends to need more and more exceptions and edge cases to justify what actually happens and avoid abuses.
Like "ambient magic" that isn't detectable like real magic and keeps working in cases where other magic doesn't.
If it works for you, that's cool. For me, once I start trying to logic it all out I don't stop until it all breaks. :)

To be fair, the official name I use for this ambient magic is "handwavium", which should tell you how much thought I've put into this. :P

I mostly agree with thejeff - this kind of tropes doesn't appear exclusively in PF.

How can dragons fly? How can giants stay erect and breathe and move normally with their huge mass?

And if we want to get hardcore, how do people take lots of wounds and keep fighting?

Rule of Cool, Badass Normals, and all the rest.

Why Amiri doesn't accurately reflect a Str of 18 in her build and musculature? Artistic License - Biology.

Really, in the game and in the setting there's a lot of stuff that works only if you don't think too much about it - it isn't a scientific treatise, it's sheer fantasy entertainment. It doesn't try to mimic reality - it'si similar to the honey badger in that it doesn't care and doesn't give a s&*&.

And it's not like it's the only form of entertainment that does so - sure, some rpgs do care about verisimilitude (GURPS...), but there's tons of series, movies and books where the protagonists won't wear helmets, won't listen to their shrink, will use psychic powers, will dress differently than the era and culture they're portrayed as belonging to, will visit other dimensions... hell, think about superheroes. Nobody *really* questions that Superman gets all those incredible powers while under a Sun-like star, it's just the way it works. The stories are more important. How does Ironman manage to live a normal life with that weird energy core in his chest? How can Thor restart a dead star? When the Hulk transforms where does he get all the extra mass?

Yes, sometimes we catch some details that strain our suspension of disbelief - and that's when we criticize the subject work. But in general we should really appreciate PF for what it is, either accepting that some tropes are just good, or that there's something in Golarion's universe that's different from ours, and carry on.

Constructive criticism is great, but if our standards differ too much from the entertainment we're consuming we're just doomed to be pissed and disappointed.

Yeah, trying to apply reality to pulp high fantasy (PF), other fantasy, sci-fi, Supers, urban fantasy and most post apocalyptic or even action settings is pretty pointless and takes the fun out of the genres to boot. If you can’t keep the suspension of disbelief up and enjoy them for what they are then why are you even bothering to play/watch/read?

I'm still going to say those aren't the same thing. They can be, if that's a common trope in the setting - some anime tropes are quite happy with tiny waifs with skinny arms being stronger than the muscled hunks in the same show without any obvious special powers or magic to explain it.

I think they're going for a more pseudo-realism art approach here. While there are obviously creatures that are stronger or weaker than they appear, individuals within any race tend to look stronger or weaker as expected. And since some people see this Amiri as looking strong enough and since the artist described her as "classic pear" and "wiry", neither of which I see in the picture, I think the intent is for the art to reflect her strength.

It just didn't work for me and some others.

It is true that the most important thing is rule of cool** (though consistency is also important), It's just that It would have been way cooler for me (and others, apparently) if the inspiration for Amiri's anatomy were actual strong women.

**And not some dark reasons that some posters wanted to ascribe to people that don't like the picture.

The other problem I see is that by the standards of this thread, anyone over 20+ Str is going to be required to be a muscled brute, because obviously in the world of dragons and magic and gods, that's the only way things work.

That's a valid point, Cyouni.

Amiri is not going to look any more muscled when she is depicted in book 5 of an AP, at level 16 and STR 24 or w/e.

My personal favorite explanation for why fantasy worlds work the way they do, is that they're quite small compared to our world. You can fall farther and take less impact damage due to lack of mass. Giants are human sized, dragons are condor sized, and so on.

...I also think that same magical force is probably what prevents this thread from dying. :P

It's not magic, it's engineering! This is a three cylinder discussion.

I think this again goes back to seeing the picture differently. If you see her as already decently muscled, then you're wondering what more some of us want and extending that to "muscled brute" as her strength goes up.

But if you realize we see her as frail and weak then that sort of falls apart. We're not arguing over whether she looks like a 16 or an 18, but whether she looks like an 8 or not.

Whereas I think I am arguing from the point of view of "I don't care how strong or weak she looks, she looks like someone who might rip my jugular out with her bare hands if I crossed her in a back alley, that sounds about right to me."

:P

I'm just gonna toss out here that after flipping through Horror Adventures again last night...

If you weren't complaining about Amiri's build as it reflects her strength until this picture, I suggest you look over her prior appearances, because, uh... for me, the definition/sense of whipcord, rather than just slender in the visible musculature here is a HUGE step up from how she's been portrayed a lot of the time...

Whereas I think I am arguing from the point of view of "I don't care how strong or weak she looks, she looks like someone who might rip my jugular out with her bare hands if I crossed her in a back alley, that sounds about right to me."

:P

Fair, I suppose.

As I've said before, I like the feral look. The expression and face in general work well, but the body shape doesn't work for me.

I'm just gonna toss out here that after flipping through Horror Adventures again last night...

If you weren't complaining about Amiri's build as it reflects her strength until this picture, I suggest you look over her prior appearances, because, uh... for me, the definition/sense of whipcord, rather than just slender in the visible musculature here is a HUGE step up from how she's been portrayed a lot of the time...

What picture?

I think this again goes back to seeing the picture differently. If you see her as already decently muscled, then you're wondering what more some of us want and extending that to "muscled brute" as her strength goes up.

But if you realize we see her as frail and weak then that sort of falls apart. We're not arguing over whether she looks like a 16 or an 18, but whether she looks like an 8 or not.

I look at that and go, "find me a Str 8 person who can hold a sword like that in one hand without heavy strain". I'm stronger than most people would expect for my size and done quite a bit of sparring, and I wouldn't want to try handling a sword like that with one hand for long.

That's a hefty sword. Even if she's only 5' tall, that would suggest it's got a blade of around 2.5', and it's not a slender weapon, either.

thejeff wrote:

I think this again goes back to seeing the picture differently. If you see her as already decently muscled, then you're wondering what more some of us want and extending that to "muscled brute" as her strength goes up.

But if you realize we see her as frail and weak then that sort of falls apart. We're not arguing over whether she looks like a 16 or an 18, but whether she looks like an 8 or not.

I look at that and go, "find me a Str 8 person who can hold a sword like that in one hand without heavy strain". I'm stronger than most people would expect for my size and done quite a bit of sparring, and I wouldn't want to try handling a sword like that with one hand for long.

That's a hefty sword. Even if she's only 5' tall, that would suggest it's got a blade of around 2.5', and it's not a slender weapon, either.

Well, in this picture she's holding it up while it's resting point down on the ground. Even with a strength of 8, she should be able to do that.

But all that's beside the point: The point is that she's supposed to be strong, but that the art doesn't look that way to me. Saying she must be strong because she can use that big sword just emphasizes that she's supposed to be strong, it doesn't change how she looks.
Like you could draw a kid with skinny little arms holding up a heavy barbell, but that wouldn't convince you the kid looked strong. It would just clash.

I honestly understand you people who think she should look more muscular and powerful. I can empathize, and I think it would totally be a valid and coherent artistic choice. If someone has a str of 18, 20, 22, or even just 16 or 14, you show some muscle in the subject art. It totally makes sense.

I also think I understand why Wayne went with the skinnier look, and I'm fine with it. It's not like Amiri has ever looked like a powerful athlete - she was just... curvier. Boobs don't give you extra hitting power if I recall correctly (they've never done much for me in that regard, at least).

Same for her constitution - I understand that a pale, skinny woman with dark circles under her eyes can remind you of someone who takes drugs, or didn't have enough sleep, or in general is not the example of a glowing health.

And again I feel Wayne was going for that look for very specific, and totally legitimate to me, reasons.

I totally agree that she can look less than convincing as a "powerful barbarian warrior". I also think in the end it all depends on how the artist wants to convey certain traits. I certainly don't think Wayne is less good an artist than someone else because he didn't draw Amiri with bulging traps, a large frame and anatomically perfect abs.

And regarding her bare midriff (which surprisingly few people have brought up...) I can suspend my disbelief because she needs to appear barbaric, so a vaguely pulp-ish armor does the trick. It could be definitely reasoned that she needs more protection on her stomach (also: a helmet. Also: shift that bow and quiver to her hip, historically people never wore them on their back. But also: heh. It's great art, who cares?).

Other than that... she can effectively wield her sword only because of her rage totem. In the vignette by James L. Sutter it's very clear she could never fight with such a monstrosity if it weren't for her rage ability (whether that be adrenaline/endorphin strength or something more mystical is left to you to decide). So she doesn't actually need to be naturally strong (as in say Str 16-18-20) to wield the giant sword in actual combat (of course it doesn't hurt).

The fact that some people are way stronger than others expect from their size, though, that's relevant. I think it's one of the traits Wayne was going for here, for instance.

Still, we can only do so much to suspend our disbelief, and it changes according to situations, genres, directorial and artistic choices, and a plethora of other variants. If some don't like new Amiri there's really nothing wrong with it. I just think that doesn't mean Wayne's technique is faulty, is all.

Xenocrat wrote:

Which is the problem many of us have with Amiri's art, since there's no explicit superpower aspect to an 18 strength in Pathfinder, there should be some visible basis for it in natural biology.

As I mentioned in another thread, there actually is an explicit superpower aspect to Amiri's Strength score. There always has been to some degree (what with Rage and all), but it's gotten much more explicit in PF2.

Giant Totem specifically allows the wielding of oversized weapons, and does so irrespective of stats. It allows a Str 10 Halfling to wield a Large Greatsword (ie: a sword bigger than Amiri's). It allows them to wield a Large sized Elven Curveblade (ie: a sword of similar size) well.

That's a Strength-related superpower. Saying that, in Amiri's case, it also increases her actual Strength score is not at all a stretch.

Differently focused response here, since I had more time to think:

Sure, it's possible for strength to be a superpower and thus not reflected in the character design, but I'm pretty sure that's not the artist's intent, nor do I think it's what most of those that like the artwork actually think.

There have been a number of posts that seemed to fit the "She looks weak, but that's intentional and it makes sense" category, but I don't think any of them stuck with that when asked explicitly, so it seemed to me more of an "I think she looks strong enough, but if you think she looks weak that should be fine because it could be superpowers."
Which as far as I'm concerned isn't necessary. I think she looks weak. I think she was intended to look strong. Others think she does. The whole "It would be okay if she looked weak which she doesn't because magic" argument doesn't seem to make anyone happy.

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