Iconic Evolution: Amiri

thejeff wrote:

Which I think is the crux of it, unless you're saying those strong people looked really weak.

We're perceiving the artwork differently.

Or we've seen very different people be strong. A lot of the people saying she looks weak, I mean... I got nothing for ya. 'Cause she doesn't look weak to me. In the slightest.

That's my point. We see it differently.

Nicos wrote:

If you are arguing from a semi-realistic point of view, then people doesn't get that strong without looking strong, that's for sure. And the picture doesn't match the criteria to me.

I think that's really the crux of this... Amiri looks like some very strong people I've actually seen fight. Thus, I have no problem with it.

from a PF1 point of view, a well trained str 12 or 14 would look very strong to regular people.

Consider that Str 18 is almost at the top of human capabilities for low level people, aka every person on earth. Thus, we are talking about heavyweight here.

from a PF1 point of view

Exactly. This is 2e.

Also, I've seen lots of official characters with Str 12-14 who didn't look all that strong at all. Str 18 can totally be a heavyweight, or have a physique like a strongman, or a hammer thrower, or a sumotori... then again, it doesn't have to. Valeros doesn't look like a heavyweight to me, and yet you can be sure he has Str 18 as well.

Wayne is drawing swordspersons, not bodybuilders.

Wayne is drawing swordspersons, not bodybuilders.

Sworpersons with the str of powerlifters though.

Roswynn wrote:

Wayne is drawing swordspersons, not bodybuilders.

Sworpersons with the str of powerlifters though.

You do realize we can have Gnome and Halfling Barbarians with Strength scores naturally in the 20s right? Starting out they can have up to a 16.

Nicos wrote:

Roswynn wrote:

Wayne is drawing swordspersons, not bodybuilders.

Sworpersons with the str of powerlifters though.

You do realize we can have Gnome and Halfling Barbarians with Strength scores naturally in the 20s right? Starting out they can have up to a 16.

Yes, and they can be drawn as fragile/weak physiques if the artist so desires. Some people would like that, others wouldn't. Just ast with Amiri art here.

Rysky wrote:

Nicos wrote:

Roswynn wrote:

Wayne is drawing swordspersons, not bodybuilders.

Sworpersons with the str of powerlifters though.

You do realize we can have Gnome and Halfling Barbarians with Strength scores naturally in the 20s right? Starting out they can have up to a 16.

Yes, and they can be drawn as fragile/weak physiques if the artist so desires. Some people would like that, others wouldn't. Just as with Amiri art here.

Or they can apparently be drawn so that some interpret them as weak and others as muscular.

If you're playing Pathfinder for what you perceive to be "realism" then... you've grossly missed the point of a game where magic is commonplace and gods actually answer your prayers.

Personally, I think in this fantasy world of Golarion women have greater grip strength than men. I say we raise the strength cap for human women to be 20.

Future art can show muscle bound wizards with strength 10 and spindly starvation survivors with strength 20, and that's fine?

100% yes. All of that is entirely with the bounds of "art which is acceptable."

However, it is conceivable that these images will not be conveying what they are supposed to conveying but absent specific context it's pointless to speculate on this. For Amiri, what we want to communicate about her is that she's scary, liable to be underestimated, and could snap at any moment.

Xenocrat wrote:

Future art can show muscle bound wizards with strength 10 and spindly starvation survivors with strength 20, and that's fine?

100% yes. All of that is entirely with the bounds of "art which is acceptable."

However, it is conceivable that these images will not be conveying what they are supposed to conveying but absent specific context it's pointless to speculate on this. For Amiri, what we want to communicate about her is that she's scary, liable to be underestimated, and could snap at any moment.

Perhaps. It's unclear what the intent is.

Personally, I don't think she was intended to look as weak as she looks to me, so this piece of art doesn't work well for me. Others differ. :)

Real world biological differences between men and women don't need to be argued or taken into consideration.

I, personally, as someone who lift weights just would have preferred that the art of fantasy strong woman would have been modeled after real world strong women. It would have been cooler, for me, that's it.

Oh god this thread needs to just die but since some people keep ignoring this little bit I will restate it. Whether you think she looks strong enough or not remember that she follows the Giant totem! It’s why she can use her weapon effectively in the first place and eventually will let her grow multiple size categories. Most barbarians are blatantly supernatural now.

And for those that don’t think she looks strong enough, you are partially right. When she isn’t raging she suffers all of the penalties and no benefits for wielding that sword.

I don’t think she looks weak per se, she looks like the kind of strong you get from a hard life. Very wiry. Then the potential totem strength makes up for any potential discrepancies in my eyes. Maybe we are talking semantics though.

I don’t think she looks weak per se, she looks like the kind of strong you get from a hard life. Very wiry. Then the potential totem strength makes up for any potential discrepancies in my eyes. Maybe we are talking semantics though.

I think it's the differences in how we interpret the picture. To me, she looks physically weak.

But I'll move you into the "Look strong enough" category.

I have removed some posts and the replies to them.

It's ok to have differences of opinion on art. It's ok to discuss those opinions. You can do so without attacking other individuals or groups though. Personal attacks or the disparagement of groups of people will not be tolerated.

This may be neither here nor there for many but I feel the need to extrapolate. To me her build fills the requirements for a strength of 16, but attributes can be somewhat of an abstraction (the word I’m actually looking for is escaping me at the moment but that’s close enough.) When I see her I also see the feral and crazy factors, then I add how I interpret the giant totem and I easily see a strength of 18 justified.

This is a way I interpret it. Unless your class gives a strength bonus a starting character has a maximum strength of 16. During the ABCs your class choice gives you that final +2. It comes during it, not before. When you finally become a wizard your mind opens to new understandings of knowledge and the arcane. When you finally find your muse and become a bard your self confidence and personal magnetism increase etc. For barbarians I see it as an embrace of some limitless, intoxicating, feral force that even when you’re not raging has hardened your body and mind in some fundamental, but not necessarily obvious way.
That’s admittedly by no means the only interpretation but one I like and makes the art fine with me.

I think savage energy and the will to tolerate pain play as much a role in what high STR entails as muscles do. And I am not even talking about Rage here.

To me her build fills the requirements for a strength of 16

I see a str 10, 12 at most.

Raylyeh wrote:

To me her build fills the requirements for a strength of 16

I see a str 10, 12 at most.

As I've been saying for awhile, I think this is the root of the difference here.

I suspect, as I think someone said in a deleted post, it might be the way the armor hides much of her body, but also bulks out around what limbs are shown, making them look even smaller?

My conclusion comes from the look of her (ridiculously exposed) slim torso. Compare it to Meg squat's or Camille Leblanc-Bazinet's torso (and those women are probably not str 18 either)

The legs look slim too.

My conclusion comes from the look of her (ridiculously exposed) slim torso. Compare it to Meg squat's or Camille Leblanc-Bazinet's torso (and those women are probably not str 18 either)

The legs look slim too.

Her midriff has always been exposed though. It's not very practical in a fight, true, but in PF art sometimes people don't wear the most practical outfit. It isn't a gritty, down-to-earth game simulating Western martial arts, it's high fantasy with strong pulp sensibilities.

I too am a fan of armors that make sense, but I can make an exception for Amiri's "barbaric hide armor".

As for Camille Leblanc-Bazinet and Megsquats, yes, those are very good example of someone who might have a Str of 18 IRL, true. Camille is also a CrossFit athlete and she probably uses a lot of specialized gym machinery to train, as does Meg. In the Realm of the Mammoth Lords, and on Golarion in general, there are no actual gyms (well, there are dojo...), much less machines to help you develop your muscles - Amiri's workout probably consists in running, climbing, fighting, swimming... she could certainly have a more powerful body (even though with the armor covering most of it it'd be hard to say how muscular she actually is - she could have a lot of lean muscles for all we know, and I think her midriff shows exactly that kind of "thin but strong" concept), but she never had the chance to bulk up regularly in a controlled environment with the help of leg presses and pulldowns.

There's also a thematic element to consider: Amiri was considered weak by her tribesmen. It's actually the biggest insult you can call her - it's part of her totem as a barbarian - essentially, "if they call you weak, teach them a lesson". Now, if she were a big strong woman, if it were apparent she can wrestle a dire bear to the ground... no one would really call her weak (or at least, no human or being with a similar strength). Which would impoverish her character. The push to show her strength is a big motivator for her afaik - she wants to be worthy, to be strong enough, to show she needs no one. If she actually looked the part, well, no one would call her weak, and she wouldn't feel all this rage at the thought.

So I think that everyone on this thread who's saying she doesn't look strong enough is exactly like her problem on Golarion - not many take her seriously enough, most of all in her home culture. Which drives her mad of course, and pushes her into adventuring. Inferiority complex, if you will.

Add to that the fact that Wayne wasn't drawing a weight lifter, he was drawing a swordswoman. Real world martial artists don't necessarily bulge with muscles - they're certainly very fit, fast and agile, and can often hit hard and endure a lot of fatigue, but few of them look as muscular as Camille (maybe more like Meg, but if you check Samantha Swords she's not obviously muscular either). So it's probably a stylistic choice. And Amiri has never looked like the strongest gal around, not even in PF 1e. It's not like she's drastically changed overnight in this version.

A last thought: I like her a lot the way she is (if that wasn't evident already), but I would appreciate more warrior women with physiques similar to Camille's and Meg's and heroic dispositions. As Wayne was saying, many people have asked for PF women with a wider diversity of body shapes. This is a good banana in my opinion (I would draw a pear with larger hips... if I could draw at all) but let's have some more muscular warrior ladies. Apparently it's what at least part of the fanbase wants, very much!

Yeah that slim torso is the main clue as to why she looks 'weak', To clarify weak in comparison to her stated STR score.(imo she looks like a 12 at tops 14 and that is really stretching it.) Her arms are skinny too, her legs actually look somewhat strong.

Link to pictures

Note that said pictures have athletes what covers what underwear would do. So even if not sexualized, I figured it would be polite to 'warn' about it.

Anyways if you look at the women in those pictures the only ones that has even close to as slim torso as Amiri in the picture above is a golfer and long distance runners. Where as a swordfighter probably should look like a wrestler/boxer/martial artist in their physique. And not one in the lighter weight divisions either considering the assumed STR of 18, and the fact that Amiri wouldn't have to make weight class so no need for weight cuts which results in less defination. Sure you could look at the athletes walk around weight but you are less likely to find pictures of that.

Do you have pics of RL Gnome or Halfling swordfighters or weightlifters?

And how exactly is that relevant to discussing the appearance of a human character? Or is snark all you are capable for supporting your side of the argument?

And how exactly is that relevant to discussing the appearance of a human character? Or is snark all you are capable for supporting your side of the argument?

It’s relevant because we’re talking about the physical appearance of a Barbarian in a fantasy game. Why do the humans have to be constrained to random examples of superhumanly strong people in real life but every other Ancestry does not?

A Gnome with an 18 Strength is not vastly weaker than a Human with an 18 Strength.

Fumbles_suck wrote:

And how exactly is that relevant to discussing the appearance of a human character? Or is snark all you are capable for supporting your side of the argument?

It’s relevant because we’re talking about the physical appearance of a Barbarian in a fantasy game. Why do the humans have to be constrained to random examples of superhumanly strong people in real life but every other Ancestry does not?

A Gnome with an 18 Strength is not vastly weaker than a Human with an 18 Strength.

As I said earlier, I would still expect that Gnome to have visible muscles. The Gnome would look like a strong gnome.

It's fantasy. The gnome would not have to have the same total weight of muscles as a human of equal strength, but they should be proportionally similar. At least if you want viewers to recognize the character as strong.

Rysky wrote:

Fumbles_suck wrote:

And how exactly is that relevant to discussing the appearance of a human character? Or is snark all you are capable for supporting your side of the argument?

It’s relevant because we’re talking about the physical appearance of a Barbarian in a fantasy game. Why do the humans have to be constrained to random examples of superhumanly strong people in real life but every other Ancestry does not?

A Gnome with an 18 Strength is not vastly weaker than a Human with an 18 Strength.

As I said earlier, I would still expect that Gnome to have visible muscles. The Gnome would look like a strong gnome.

It's fantasy. The gnome would not have to have the same total weight of muscles as a human of equal strength, but they should be proportionally similar. At least if you want viewers to recognize the character as strong.

But viewers unfamiliar would always assume the gnome would be weaker due to be half the size, even if the characters Strength score was the same.

There's also a thematic element to consider: Amiri was considered weak by her tribesmen. It's actually the biggest insult you can call her - it's part of her totem as a barbarian - essentially, "if they call you weak, teach them a lesson". Now, if she were a big strong woman, if it were apparent she can wrestle a dire bear to the ground... no one would really call her weak (or at least, no human or being with a similar strength). Which would impoverish her character. The push to show her strength is a big motivator for her afaik - she wants to be worthy, to be strong enough, to show she needs no one. If she actually looked the part, well, no one would call her weak, and she wouldn't feel all this rage at the thought.

So I think that everyone on this thread who's saying she doesn't look strong enough is exactly like her problem on Golarion - not many take her seriously enough, most of all in her home culture. Which drives her mad of course, and pushes her into adventuring. Inferiority complex, if you will.

I don't see that at all in her backstory. I think that interpretation weakens it.