Uses for a familiar? How intelligent is it?

I'm trying to come up with uses for a familiar.

Given that they have a decent stealth, and can have darkvision, they could make a decent scout.

So a wizard puts scent and speech, then sends the familiar to "scout" out the next room.

The familiar does so. It then comes back in and makes a report to the wizard (speech).

Is it as intelligent as the wizard? Does it possess the same recall knowledge skills?

Can it even make a report? Before it speaks, it has to put what it saw into words. What is the limit to its vocabulary? At what point does it break the game?

I saw a gray moving shape that stank.
I saw a lanky gray moving shape that stank like foulness.
I saw a lanky, gray, moving emaciated shape with a long tongue and it stank strongly of the grave.
I saw a lanky, gray, loping emaciated medium humanoid shape with an unnaturally long tongue and it stank unnaturally strongly of the grave.
I saw a ghast.

GM will ultimately determine how much detail the familiar can give. I'd probably allow for reasonably detailed descriptions but not recall knowledge checks for the familiar.

Another use for scent+speech is to command the familiar to Point Out a threat to the party that has disappeared via stealth or invisibility.

They're clearly intelligent enough to mix up an alchemical elixir in under 6 seconds.

We just had several long discussions about familiars. The end result is:

- The intelligence of familiars is never specified, nor do they have any statistics. All we know is: "Most familiars were originally animals, though the ritual of becoming a familiar makes them something more."

- When you choose to endow the familiar with the ability to speak,"It understands and speaks a language you know." This implies a fairly high level of intelligence, but doesn't specify it.

- We know how familiars can be used during encounter mode, since they follow the rules for minions, and can take two actions when you spend one action to command them.

- They have senses and movement capabilities, and some familiar abilities, like Spell Delivery, can take them into combat, while other familiar abilities grant additional powers or resources to their master.

That's it. There are no rules to govern how they work outside of encounter mode. Nothing specifically allows them to have a role to play during exploration mode. Nothing specifically allows them to carry out their master's commands beyond a single round in encounter mode.

However, it is worthwhile to note that the minion rules specify, "If left unattended for long enough, typically 1 minute, mindless minions usually don’t act, animals often indulge their creature comforts, and sapient minions act how they please." While it is never specified, since familiars are "something more" than animals, and depending on your choices they can "understand and speak a language you know" it seems highly probable that they should be categorized as "sapient minions".

So how to interpret "sapient minions act how they please"? If minions are loyal pets, can we conclude that they want to please their master and follow his commands beyond a single round? If their master instructs them to scout ahead along the path for three miles, then return and report, does that fall within the purview of "act how they please"?

The RAW are silent on any familiar action beyond a single round in encounter mode. If the DM and her players want to allow more extensive familiar actions at their table, that's great. But there are no rules support for such actions, you'll have to wing it.

It seems to me that knowing a familiar's intelligence modifier is necessary to adjudicate how much a scouting familiar can convey to its master via speech. See my above examples to show differing levels of intelligence that could be reported by a familiar.

This is a huge wiggle room area, and it alters the meta-game player knowledge potentially. If I have to interpret the rules, I'm going to be very vague - "you see a moving shape" so as to not trigger meta-game knowledge.

It seems to me that knowing a familiar's intelligence modifier is necessary to adjudicate how much a scouting familiar can convey to its master via speech.

There's nothing about the Intelligence attribute that would give you any insight here.

Sliska Zafir wrote:

It seems to me that knowing a familiar's intelligence modifier is necessary to adjudicate how much a scouting familiar can convey to its master via speech.

There's nothing about the Intelligence attribute that would give you any insight here.

What do you say to the familiar's caster when they have it scout?

"Master, I saw something."

"Could you be more specific?" asks caster.

"No. Because I don't have any intelligence."

What do you say to the familiar's caster when they have it scout?

Going by the rules we have, if you send them to scout it makes two move actions, then stops and looks back at you until you give it another command: if you do it can make 2 more move actions until you give it another command and if you don't it sits there for 1 min then does whatever it wants to.

As written a familiar is more an object than a creature: treat it as a drone that requires continuous control on the wizards part. If you stop controlling it, it drops to the ground and sits there until you pick up the control and start directing it again.

Personally I am looking forward to having the wizard send his cat forward to scout only to find it licking itself in the corner.

Going by the rules we have, if you send them to scout it makes two move actions, then stops and looks back at you until you give it another command: if you do it can make 2 more move actions until you give it another command and if you don't it sits there for 1 min then does whatever it wants to.

As I've tried to explain before, this absurd situation is simply an artifact of the definition of familiar's actions (and the actions of other minions) only being specified for encounter mode. There is no reason to extrapolate the 2-second actions of encounter mode into the minutes, hours and days of exploration mode.

Personally, I think the minion rules are overly restrictive, even in encounter mode. But I understand that a hard limit had to be imposed so that pet classes didn't dominate table time.

Personally I am looking forward to having the wizard send his cat forward to scout only to find it licking itself in the corner.

Familiars are no normal animals. They are even more than trained. You can command them precisely in combat. And sending an animal scouting is kind of the most basic of tasks you can ask it. We train animals to scout/hunt/guard for ages, and they are far from familiars in terms of capabilities.

You don’t understand why replacing another character out of combat with a feat is bad?

It's less what people want to do and more an example pointing out we have no idea what they can do.
"More than an animal" is not always a high bar, depending on the task at hand.

At the very least, the vagueness of it all guarantees table variation will reign supreme, from human-level intelligence and to ability to report accurately and execute complex time consuming tasks to just "dude, I'm a magic animal : I'm hungry, and that's all I know. OOOH, SHINY!".
The truth is likely in between those extremes, but we can't be sure.

It's less what people want to do and more an example pointing out we have no idea what they can do.

"More than an animal" is not always a high bar, depending on the task at hand.

At the very least, the vagueness of it all guarantees table variation will reign supreme, from human-level intelligence and to ability to report accurately and execute complex time consuming tasks to just "dude, I'm a magic animal : I'm hungry, and that's all I know. OOOH, SHINY!".
The truth is likely in between those extremes, but we can't be sure.

This is exactly the reason for this post, and for the fact I will NOT take a familiar in Society Play, until what it is capable of is spelled out explicitly.

"Boss, I scouted, like you asked."

"Good, what did you see?"

"Stuff...oh and things too." [No Int Score].

This is exactly the reason for this post, and for the fact I will NOT take a familiar in Society Play, until what it is capable of is spelled out explicitly.

Is there a mechanism to request PFS to issue a Campaign Clarification (that's what they're called, right?) on the subject?

I simply run sapient minions as follows: If you don't command it with your own actions, it is controlled by the GM.

There is no reason to extrapolate the 2-second actions of encounter mode into the minutes, hours and days of exploration mode.

I disagree 100%. Do we expect detect magic to work totally different in exploration? No, it works 100% the same as it does in encounter mode. "You cast detect magic at regular intervals" and not 'you detect magic as you move ignoring duration and actions'.

"Though exploration isn’t broken into rounds, exploration activities assume the PCs are spending part of their time using actions, such as Seeking or Interacting." You are still using actions in exploration and there is no mention that anything changes with those actions.

Improvising New Activities: "If a player wants to do something not covered by other rules, here are some guidelines. If the activity is similar to an action someone could use in an encounter, such as Avoid Notice, it usually consists of a single action repeated roughly 10 times per minute (such as using the Sneak action 10 times) or an alternation of actions that works out similarly (such as Search, which alternates Stride and Seek)." SO, exploration actions "consists of a single action repeated roughly 10 times per minute". TEN INDIVIDUAL COMMAND ACTION, or one per round that are EXACTLY like same as encounter actions. It's not "an artifact of the definition of familiar's actions (and the actions of other minions) only being specified for encounter mode" but actually how exploration is explained to work.

Plain and simple, familiars don't magically become much more useful because you aren't in an encounter.

Plain and simple, familiars don't magically become much more useful because you aren't in an encounter.

Pffft!

I understand the argument. The movement and actions of familiars *is* defined by the CRB for encounter mode (chiefly combat). Graystone extrapolates that the movement and actions of familiars outside of encounter mode is still governed by a strict aplication of the rules of encounter mode. I get it. There is precedent. I'm sure Graystone will not be alone in interpreting the rules in that way during his own games.

However it is also valid to insist (as I do) that the movement and actions of familiars outside of encounter mode simply isn't defined by the CRB. There is also CRB justification for the position that familiars can potentially act beyond the 2-action leash.
- Familiars are "something more" than animals.
- All familiars can potentially speak to and understand their master, even if their master doesn't necessarily choose to manifest that ability every day. For some, this justifies defining them as sapient minions.
- The minions rules specify "sapient minions act how they please."

People IRL often believe, rightly or wrongly, that their pets (or at last some pets) are sapient and capable of independent thought and action. Look at popular culture. Lassie barks and runs for help when Timmie falls in a well. Flipper's the same. Rin Tin Tin. Look at the organ-grinder's monkey from the Indiana Jones movies - arguably a popular culture depiction of a familiar - spying on, pickpocketing and distracting his master's foes.

Familiars are supposed to have become "something more" than animals, due to magic. In a very real sense, they should be seen as having "magically become much more useful".

But for the time being, their movement and abilities outside of encounter mode remains undefined. "Act how they please" remains undefined. I suspect that will change, sooner or later, either in the upcoming GMG, or through dev posts or comments. In the meantime, it's up to the DM to adjudicate in a way that enhances the gaming experience.

YMMV.

Familiars should ideally have exploration actions available, just like PCs. For example something like this.

Scout - the familiar spends five rounds exploring in the direction the master indicated, then returns and conveys information gained. The GM makes a secret Perception check. A familiar with Speech can indicate if there is a predator, prey, or other danger, but not in specifics (similar to an augury spell).

Fetch - the familiar moves where the master indicates, performing a Seek action (GM secret roll). If it is successful, an object is retrieved from the area.

Both of these actions rely on some kind of intelligence. Fetching what the caster intends relies on the ability of the familiar to identify the object desired by its master. Scouting relies on some knowledge of what constitutes a danger.

More?

You don’t understand why replacing another character out of combat with a feat is bad?

Well, if this character sole out of combat utility is to scout with no Perception nor Stealth I think there's an issue, but not with the familiar.

The idea that a familiar can’t describe things seems silly. If it understands what a bone is and what walking is, bare minimum it can describe a skeleton as walking bones. It knows what armor means, it can say that there’s somebody wearing armor in that room. Whatever the GM would describe before a knowledge check is made, that’s what they can report.

It's not a question of becoming "much more useful", it's simply a question of what makes sense within our shared game fiction.

If it's a mater of shared fiction, IMO the familiar fails at it's base: in PF1 it's been turned into more of a limited use item than a functional animal/helper. That's just the way it is. If someone wanted to houserule something different, that'd be great but it doesn't change how the game presents them.

However it is also valid to insist (as I do) that the movement and actions of familiars outside of encounter mode simply isn't defined by the CRB.

"it usually consists of a single action repeated roughly 10 times per minute (such as using the Sneak action 10 times) or an alternation of actions that works out similarly (such as Search, which alternates Stride and Seek)." So the single action command for 2 familiar action format stays intact. You'd need an entirely new exploration action invented to release the shackles of the command action/minion trait. Quite simply, familiars don't stop being familiars because you left exploration mode.

"Act how they please" remains undefined.

IMO, that's quite simple: they become an NPC of the DM's. SO it wouldn't be the player's choice what tactic it used. If the DM think is should be mating season and it leaves for 2 weeks, then it does... Also that rule isn't "sapient minions act how they please" BUT "If left unattended for long enough, typically 1 minute, mindless minions usually don’t act, animals follow their instincts, and sapient minions act how they please." This means you have to LEAVE YOUR FAMILIAR BEHIND for this to kick in. Not carry it around. Not have it follow you. Be out of your zone of influence longer than "1 Minute".

Taken all together, I can't see where you have a viable RAW stance for familiars to work any different when modes change as nothing in the rules gives the slightest indication of that: it all backs up them doing the exact same thing. I'll again state, I wouldn't be opposed to a houserule making familiars more useful but I I'd have to acknowledge that it is indeed a houserule. A blurb about what happens if you abandon your familiar in no way makes this undefined or vague for normal familiar use: if anything it backs up them working the same because they ONLY "act how they please" if you're not around...

...

Could you explain us then what is the use of a familiar?

Cantrip Connection, Extra Reagents and Spell Battery works even if you leave your familiar at home.
Speech doesn't serve any purpose at all as the familiar can't act on its own, so you're speaking with a puppet.
Amphibious, Burrower, Climber and Flier don't work unless you can yourself swim, burrow, climb or fly.

So, basicaly, the only things the familiar can do is Scent, Darkvision (if noone has it in your party because it can hardly succeed at a Perception check), Spell Delivery and Manual Dexterity. Pretty limited...

So, clearly, considering the amount of scouting abilities, RAI, the familiar is supposed to be able to scout. Considering that, RAW, the rules are unclear, I'll apply RAI.

graystone wrote:

...

Could you explain us then what is the use of a familiar?

For the most part it seems like it's a item you carry around so you can use the abilities it grants. Anything with the minnion trait in no way acts like a real animal.

Cantrip Connection, Extra Reagents and Spell Battery works even if you leave your familiar at home.

Familiar Focus requires the familiars actions as do Spell Delivery and Lab Assistant.

IMO, the familiar is good for expanding your own options: have it HELP you search, Investigate, scout: adding darkvison, higher/lower perspectives, scent, underwater, ect. Even speech can be helpful as you can speed up gather info and such as you can divide your attention to 2 people at a time. I think it just requires people stop thinking if them as 'creatures' and start thinking of them as 'limited use items' like a drone that need constant attention.

You don’t understand why replacing another character out of combat with a feat is bad?

How can a familiar replace another character out of combat? By being strictly worse at executing any skill-based task than a character who even slightly cares about being good at that task? There will not be a case where a familiar is a better choice to scout than a character. The only case where you actually want to use a familiar as a scout is when you don't have another option.

IMO, the familiar is good for expanding your own options: have it HELP you search, Investigate, scout: adding darkvison, higher/lower perspectives, scent, underwater, ect. Even speech can be helpful as you can speed up gather info and such as you can divide your attention to 2 people at a time. I think it just requires people stop thinking if them as 'creatures' and start thinking of them as 'limited use items' like a drone that need constant attention.

How can it help you search considering the intelligence you give it and the skills level it as?

Speech doesn't serve any purpose at all as the familiar can't act on its own, so you're speaking with a puppet.

Can't act on it's own? I'm not sure how you can even come to that conclusion. The rules clearly state that creatures act as they choose when not being ordered about in combat.

The minion restrictions are only there for balance and were clearly not meant to make familiars mindless puppet drones.

How can it help you search considering the intelligence you give it and the skills level it as?

I don't get the question... The familiar can often see things you don't get a roll on [can't see it in the dark, can't smell it, can't see it from below/above, ect. It's "Its Perception, Acrobatics, and Stealth modifiers are equal to your level plus your spellcasting ability modifier" after all. Even if it's another skill, like diplomacy, "it uses your level as its modifier."

It can't investigate either.

"Not on it's own, no: that's not what I'm talking about. Spend an action on it in a round and it can sit on your shoulder and use scent and darkvision for you, Seek, sense motive, ect.

You proved it can't scout.

Again, NOT ON IT'S OWN: it can sit on your shoulder and help.

And using the familiar to speak alongside yourself is completely crazy for a use.

You're in a bar and you're speaking to your own person and the familiar is at the other end of the bar talking to someone else: as long as you stay command range and spend the action what's odd?

In fact, half of the familiar abilities are not working if you don't consider it can follow long duration tasks by itself.

No they all work perfectly fine with 1 round actions. Which ones break down without long term actions?

Amphibious: so a familiar can follow you into water.
Burrower: it can dig dig Tiny holes.
Climber: it can follow you if you climb
Damage Avoidance: always works
Darkvision: perception is free and seek is an action, with it using your level and casting stat.
Flier: it can follow you while you fly and to avoid obstacles.
Kinspeech: translates for you.
Lab Assistant: straight forward.
Scent: perception is free and seek is an action, with it using your level and casting stat.
Speech: can actually tell you what it finds with it's perception.

Can't act on it's own? I'm not sure how you can even come to that conclusion. The rules clearly state that creatures act as they choose when not being ordered about in combat.

They can ONLY act on their own if you abandon them for a 1 min first. NOTHING infers, assumes [or any anything else] that they have ANY ability to act on their own otherwise.

The minion restrictions are only there for balance and were clearly not meant to make familiars mindless puppet drones.

It might not be the intent, not that's not what the rules say: if it's actually doing something for the player, they ARE "mindless puppet drones".

There will not be a case where a familiar is a better choice to scout than a character. The only case where you actually want to use a familiar as a scout is when you don't have another option.

Are we mixing up terms, or mixing up the Exploration action part of the discussion?

Scout during Exploration mode doesn't use a skill at all, so a familiar would be just as good a Scout as anyone else. Assuming other PCs have at least some other reasonable Encounter mode action, the familiar would *always* be the choice for Scout.

If Familiars could Scout during Exploration, they would be freeing up/replacing a PC.

Can't act on it's own?

I'm following Graystone reasoning for a "Reductio ad absurdum".

The familiar can often see things you don't get a roll on [can't see it in the dark, can't smell it, can't see it from below/above, ect.

Darkvision's useless, as I either have it or have light.

"Not on it's own, no: that's not what I'm talking about. Spend an action on it in a round and it can sit on your shoulder and use scent and darkvision for you, Seek, sense motive, ect.

So I need to spend an action every six seconds to tell my familiar to do it, which has a clear negative impact on what I'm doing. And considering the familiar is quite bad at doing it, it'd be better to just do it myself.

Again, NOT ON IT'S OWN: it can sit on your shoulder and help.

So it doesn't scout at all. To scout, you have to go ahead :)

Amphibious: so a familiar can follow you into water.

Useless, as if I can go underwater, I can put my familiar under the same spell (or put it in my Bag of Holding).

Burrower: it can dig dig Tiny holes.

Excellent. Does it screw or nail also? I have furnitures to build :)

Climber: it can follow you if you climb

Or just stay on my shoulder.

Darkvision: perception is free and seek is an action, with it using your level and casting stat.

If I can't see in the dark, then I have light...

Flier: it can follow you while you fly and to avoid obstacles.

Or stay on my shoulder.

Speech: can actually tell you what it finds with it's perception.

Considering it is with me, he doesn't need to speak as I already know what he has found...

You're in a bar and you're speaking to your own person and the familiar is at the other end of the bar talking to someone else: as long as you stay command range and spend the action what's odd?

"Where were you yesterday KIKI, SPEAK TO THE GUY! sorry, yesterday at 5PM KIKI, SPEAK TO THE GUY! sorry, when the murder happened? KIKI, SPEAK TO THE GUY!"

None of these abilities have any use if I need to command my familiar in real time.

And yes, my familiar can tell me I'm losing my hair. Appart from that, I don't see any situation where I need to see from 30 feet above me.

Or just stay on my shoulder.

Considering it is with me, he doesn't need to speak as I already know what he has found...

If I can't see in the dark, then I have light...

And now you have a bright shining target on you. Not always ideal, sometimes it's best the enemies don't see you coming from around the corner.

So I need to spend an action every six seconds to tell my familiar to do it, which has a clear negative impact on what I'm doing.

How? Say I'm doing a seek to look for something. That's a single action. HOW is using an action to have the familiar do the same having a negative impact?

And considering the familiar is quite bad at doing it, it'd be better to just do it myself.

The familiar is a free extra roll that might get a 20. Take perception once: it uses level plus casting stat. The familiar of a wizard with an 18 int is likely to have a better roll than the wizard trained in it [level + wis +2]. Even if it's be less, if you roll a 3 and it rolls an 18, the results more than makes up the difference. It's not and 'either or' situation but a 'take both and see who gets the best'.

Darkvision: So you have a torch or light spell, 20' normal then 20' dim light. So what if something is 50' away? Or there is a Darkness spell near?

Scout: There in no reason it can't scout WITH YOU. One of you can use another tactic at the same time. As to perception, what does that have to do with scouting?

Amphibious: Useless? It gives you options. You can have a familiar without being a caster so you might not have a spell that covers everyone and bags of holding only last 10 min. For instance, my gnome rogue takes a Sea Touch Elixir (Greater) and has 24 hr of underwater activity: does he spend another 920gp to use another elixir for the familiar, limit his time to 10 min for the bag or JUST have the familiar go aquatic?

Climber: Sure it can sit on your shoulder, but it has a climb speed meaning it can look for handholds for you, search ahead and doesn't fall if you do as it auto makes normal climb checks. No reason to kill your familiar if you fall.

Speech: You already know? How? "It can communicate empathically with you as long as it’s within 1 mile of you, sharing emotions." You get EMOTIONS, not other information.

Bar: No reason you can't set up a visual command to have it continue it's last command. SO not "KIKI, SPEAK TO THE GUY!" but *tap bar meaning continue talking every 6 seconds* Speaking would allow more complicated commands and alternate command types IMO. If the DM requires all commands to be auditory, make the tap barely audible then. The key here is nothing states the command actions have to be words.

Now it you feel you get nothing from a familiar that doesn't require you to command it, then I'd suggest you don't get one.

The key here is nothing states the command actions have to be words.

Actually, given at base familiars don't understand language, command actions by definition cannot be words. I'm not sure how they could take manual dexterity and lab assistant and somehow know exactly which item you want them to create without understanding words, but by the rules they can.

Presumably, it has something to do with the 1 mile range empathetic communication link the master and familiar share. Its certainly not through Handle Animal or speech. If we take the liberal view of "communicate empathically with you" meaning two-way communication, then I'd guess you can command it from a mile away as well.

Well if exploration mode is the same as encounter mode for familiars is there anything in the rules against continuously commanding your familiar while conducting your own exploration activity?

I mean I can also sustain a spell and keep spamming detect magic every round, or can't I?

graystone wrote:

The key here is nothing states the command actions have to be words.

Actually, given at base familiars don't understand language, command actions by definition cannot be words. I'm not sure how they could take manual dexterity and lab assistant and somehow know exactly which item you want them to create without understanding words, but by the rules they can.

Presumably, it has something to do with the 1 mile range empathetic communication link the master and familiar share. Its certainly not through Handle Animal or speech. If we take the liberal view of "communicate empathically with you" meaning two-way communication, then I'd guess you can command it from a mile away as well.

The sticking point is the minion trait: "if not otherwise specified, you issue a verbal command, a single action with the auditory and concentrate traits." Familiar DOESN'T specify how you can control it, so the default is "a verbal command, a single action with the auditory and concentrate traits". This means that even if you could communicate something meaningful over the empathic link it can't be a default command. "A spell or effect with the auditory trait has its effect only if the target can hear it."

Well if exploration mode is the same as encounter mode for familiars is there anything in the rules against continuously commanding your familiar while conducting your own exploration activity?

You could but then you run into this: "An activity using a quicker pace, corresponding to roughly 20 actions per minute, might have limited use or cause fatigue, as would one requiring intense concentration." 20 actions per min is 2 actions a round or commanding your familiar and doing your own action. So doing so end up with you fatigued or the actions you do having a "limited use".

I mean I can also sustain a spell and keep spamming detect magic every round, or can't I?

Tn encounter mode? Yes. In exploration mode, that's free fatigue or "limited use" [ie: you do a crappy job]. The explanation is "Characters can exert themselves to this extent in combat only because combat lasts such a short time—such exertion isn’t sustainable over the longer time frame of exploration."

Well if exploration mode is the same as encounter mode for familiars is there anything in the rules against continuously commanding your familiar while conducting your own exploration activity?

I mean I can also sustain a spell and keep spamming detect magic every round, or can't I?

If you can it takes two actions and therefore you would be fatigued after 10 minutes.

People may not like it but I believe Graystone is correct.

This doesn’t by any stretch make familiars useless so why the objection? Why the push to find a way to break the action economy?

I suspect this is coming about because people found a million loopholes to allow their familiars to be used out of proportion to their intent in PF1, and are bemoaning the loss of power that results from losing it.

In my opinion this is one of many good changes that help restore some sanity and balance to the game.

Why do you immediately jump to assuming some malicious intent?

The rules for familiars basically don't mention exploration mode at all. Given that, I don't think it's that strange some people would be wondering about or trying to extrapolate uses for them in that part of the game.

Well if exploration mode is the same as encounter mode for familiars is there anything in the rules against continuously commanding your familiar while conducting your own exploration activity?

I mean I can also sustain a spell and keep spamming detect magic every round, or can't I?

Actually, if exploration mode is the same as encounter mode for all minions, wouldn't that imply at low levels:

1) You need to Handle animal every round for your animal companion to stay with the group? No action, no movement.

2) Since your animal companion only ever gets 2 actions in 6 seconds, that is exactly the same number of actions left over from any other activity, like sustain a spell, implying the animal companion only travels in exploration mode at half speed.

3) If you do spend your 1 action for 2 minion actions, you only have 2 actions each round, just like if you were sustaining a spell, and presumably also only ever move at half speed and could never take another exploration activity and still be moving at half speed.

With that interpretation, a GM at a society table is arguably within their right to say you either move at half speed and the companion also moves at half speed, or you leave it behind and can now take other exploration activities as you move.

Which seems swinging the pendulum way in the other direction from pet classes get way too many actions and rolls than non-pet classes (PF1) to pet classes get fewer actions and rolls than a non-pet class. I don't think the developers intended to go quite that far.

My guess is they were aiming for 1 player gets 1 exploration action for their "character and minions". Whether its the minion or the character probably doesn't matter - so flying scouting out 1 mile is great, but that'd be your character's exploration action while moving at half speed.

Of course that guess doesn't actually help society play at all though. Clarification is definitely needed or you will see the above half speed or leave companion behind happen at some tables.

Why do you immediately jump to assuming some malicious intent?

The rules for familiars basically don't mention exploration mode at all. Given that, I don't think it's that strange some people would be wondering about or trying to extrapolate uses for them in that part of the game.

Well I didn’t mean to assume malign intent in everyone. It takes getting used to the new realignment of things for all of us.

I have no issue with people asking about how exploration mode works with familiars. It’s the hostility with which some posters are receiving the news that they don’t necessarily work they want that leads me to believe they have expectations out of proportion to the actual power of familiars in PF2.

Could be my take is wrong. But even if I am right they are not useless pieces or garbage with no benefit. They still have uses in proportion to the cost of acquiring them, like other minions.

Maybe I am missing something here, but I thought the whole point of differentiating Exploration and Encounter mode was that time is more flexible in Exploration mode. It seems like a lot of people are treating Exploration mode as if it should have the same 3 action economy as Encounter mode ... and it seems that is definitely not the design or intent. You have to declare what action you are primarily doing so that the GM can know what needs rolled, but nothing about that suggests you can't motion for your magically bonded familiar to follow you.

I simply run sapient minions as follows: If you don't command it with your own actions, it is controlled by the GM.

+1

Maybe I am missing something here, but I thought the whole point of differentiating Exploration and Encounter mode was that time is more flexible in Exploration mode. It seems like a lot of people are treating Exploration mode as if it should have the same 3 action economy as Encounter mode ... and it seems that is definitely not the design or intent. You have to declare what action you are primarily doing so that the GM can know what needs rolled, but nothing about that suggests you can't motion for your magically bonded familiar to follow you.

Its because Exploration mode actions have been more rigidly codified than in the past I think. The rules surrounding exploration mode seem to suggest it. For example you can only keep recasting a cantrip that takes 2 actions or less and still move at half speed. If time is flexible, why can't I recast non-stop a cantrip that takes 3 actions?

I agree that your minion following is very sensible. The question then becomes, if you can motion for your magically bonded familiar or well trained companion to follow you, what else can you have it do during exploration? As far as I can tell, a minion simply following their master is not actually written down in the rules (although perhaps I missed it). Its a reasonable assumption, and some GMs will make that assumption - but then, what other assumptions will GMs make about what a minion can and can't do in exploration mode?

It seems like a lot of people are treating Exploration mode as if it should have the same 3 action economy as Encounter mode ... and it seems that is definitely not the design or intent.

How you figure out what you can do in exploration mode is done by using that same 3 action turn: as such it's 100% the intent. The "Improvising New Activities" section on pg#498 tells you based on how many actions it uses in encounter mode and how many times you're using those same actions per minute.

The rules for familiars basically don't mention exploration mode at all.

But exploration mode DOES tell you how to deal with unmentioned activities: it's to see how many actions it is and how many times you use it per min [which boils down to that activity/round for a min].

Given that, I don't think it's that strange some people would be wondering about or trying to extrapolate uses for them in that part of the game.

It's not odd to ask at all, as it's not in an easy to find place. What seems out of place is people being told those guidelines are in place, ignoring them and extrapolating uses that don't follow with the guidelines.

IMO, we aren't talking about anything unclear. I understand that the answers aren't satisfying one but that's a different issue than what those answer actually are. I mean, I understand that it sucks that the only action people can take in exploration mode is getting their companion to follow them but it's the same with mounts too. These are complaints I've had since the playtest. It also means that a companion can never catch up to some normally slower creatures because of actions [an elf [speed 30] runs 3 actions [90] while you command you pet to chase them [2 actions of 40 equals 80'].

I don't want people to misunderstand: I'm debating how I see the rules, not how I want them.

The more I read about it in the CRB the more the minion rules are strange. It is clear that the rules have been written in a certain way to not disturb the deliberate action economy, however they apparently do a poor job in doing so while still being close to "natural" behavior.

So I have this animal companion dog and command him to attack an enemy some 120 feet away. Taking two actions the dog will move 80 feet and then stop dead in his tracks until I order him to move and attack again in a later round? Not at all plausible behaviour, especially for a trained or semi-intelligent animal. Guard dogs anyone?

I feel they should have granted minions their own action even when not actively commanded if they are already conducting a commanded "continuous action".

Something like this: If you actively command your minion it will do two actions, if you do not actively command your minon and it has received a command for a continuous action in an earlier round it will do one action instead.

And while I know that 2+2 or 3+1 actions are not exactly the same at least a minion could continue any given task on his own, albeit at a slower rate.

I'm really in favor of the familiar being sapient and thus doing what it wants when not commanded. so just make it want to help you independently of issuing it commands. just have your desires align and it'll do helpful things.

"Its Perception, Acrobatics, and Stealth modifiers are equal to your level plus your spellcasting ability modifier (Charisma if you don’t have one, unless otherwise specified). If it attempts an attack roll or other skill check, it uses your level as its modifier."

Steering this back to my original post.

Recall Knowledge is untrained. Familiars then, RAW, can make these checks with your level as modifier, and if they have speech, can tell you about monster abilities. Granted, it won't be as good as your recall knowledge, but you could consult with your familiar, and perhaps you both (after secret GM rolls) agree that a monster has a certain trait you can exploit. I guess that could be useful, given the situation.

"Its Perception, Acrobatics, and Stealth modifiers are equal to your level plus your spellcasting ability modifier (Charisma if you don’t have one, unless otherwise specified). If it attempts an attack roll or other skill check, it uses your level as its modifier."

Steering this back to my original post.

Recall Knowledge is untrained. Familiars then, RAW, can make these checks with your level as modifier, and if they have speech, can tell you about monster abilities. Granted, it won't be as good as your recall knowledge, but you could consult with your familiar, and perhaps you both (after secret GM rolls) agree that a monster has a certain trait you can exploit. I guess that could be useful, given the situation.

This means that if you put Speech and, say Darkvision, or Scent, on your familiar, and you command it to Sneak into a room and Seek and return and report, it could conceivably come back and make an untrained recall knowledge check to tell you what it saw. Am I right?

For common creatures, and you at high level the familiar would be pretty accurate (succeed fairly often). But an uncommon or rare creature may cause the familiar to critically fail, and give you inaccurate information.

Sliska Zafir wrote:

"Its Perception, Acrobatics, and Stealth modifiers are equal to your level plus your spellcasting ability modifier (Charisma if you don’t have one, unless otherwise specified). If it attempts an attack roll or other skill check, it uses your level as its modifier."

Steering this back to my original post.

Recall Knowledge is untrained. Familiars then, RAW, can make these checks with your level as modifier, and if they have speech, can tell you about monster abilities. Granted, it won't be as good as your recall knowledge, but you could consult with your familiar, and perhaps you both (after secret GM rolls) agree that a monster has a certain trait you can exploit. I guess that could be useful, given the situation.

This means that if you put Speech and, say Darkvision, or Scent, on your familiar, and you command it to Sneak into a room and Seek and return and report, it could conceivably come back and make an untrained recall knowledge check to tell you what it saw. Am I right?

For common creatures, and you at high level the familiar would be pretty accurate (succeed fairly often). But an uncommon or rare creature may cause the familiar to critically fail, and give you inaccurate information.

The commands are auditory so the usefulness of this is questionable. You can, but any creature within can likely hear you do so.