Introducing the Core Campaign

Silhren Rilbahn wrote:

My original point to posting: Why does replay value have to be associated with the core campaign? How will Paizo address the issue of GMs not wanting to run core mode?

One of the selling points is that it's easier for new GMs to pick up and start running.

If everyone's really refusing to run, that's going to be a problem. Sounds like it might be a regional thing though. Are you just going from anecdotal evidence or have you talked to a local VO or other organizer and they've had trouble getting DMs willing to run CORE?

Also, we're about a week into this, right? It may just need a little time to shake out.

Seeing people comment in a Facebook page for the local lodge where people are expressing their thoughts on the core campaign is enough. A VO can't force a GM to run something that the GM wouldn't want to do either.

I realize this is brand new and is going to have some kinks in the chain so to speak, and you are right that my personal concerns could be more of a regional thing.

thejeff wrote:

Silhren Rilbahn wrote:

My original point to posting: Why does replay value have to be associated with the core campaign? How will Paizo address the issue of GMs not wanting to run core mode?

One of the selling points is that it's easier for new GMs to pick up and start running.

If everyone's really refusing to run, that's going to be a problem. Sounds like it might be a regional thing though. Are you just going from anecdotal evidence or have you talked to a local VO or other organizer and they've had trouble getting DMs willing to run CORE?

Also, we're about a week into this, right? It may just need a little time to shake out.

Seeing people comment in a Facebook page for the local lodge where people are expressing their thoughts on the core campaign is enough. A VO can't force a GM to run something that the GM wouldn't want to do either.

Obviously he can't, but he might have GMs lined up that weren't on the FB page.

Silhren Rilbahn wrote:

thejeff wrote:

Silhren Rilbahn wrote:

My original point to posting: Why does replay value have to be associated with the core campaign? How will Paizo address the issue of GMs not wanting to run core mode?

One of the selling points is that it's easier for new GMs to pick up and start running.

If everyone's really refusing to run, that's going to be a problem. Sounds like it might be a regional thing though. Are you just going from anecdotal evidence or have you talked to a local VO or other organizer and they've had trouble getting DMs willing to run CORE?

Also, we're about a week into this, right? It may just need a little time to shake out.

Seeing people comment in a Facebook page for the local lodge where people are expressing their thoughts on the core campaign is enough. A VO can't force a GM to run something that the GM wouldn't want to do either.

Obviously he can't, but he might have GMs lined up that weren't on the FB page.

Doubtful. It's what our lodge uses to coordinate events both in and out of our local game store that hosts PFS. We will have to wait and see how this core campaign turns out. It's so new that it is hard to tell. And like others have said, the core campaign doesn't take anything away from me as a player. I just want to get around to trying other classes, but don't have many options left to pursue. *shrug*

Clearly you just need to run some tables of Core and show them how fun it can be Silhren! Once you've given your GMs a taste of it, then they'll be itching to play more.

Considering if you don't intend to play core then you effectively don't get sheets I disagree. I've no intention of GMing Core Only stuff unless we do what amounts to a home game Core Only just to see if we can beat all the hardest PFS adventures.

There is one GM out of 12-13 I know who wants to run core only but he almost never actually goes though with it and schedules events.

Core Only only accomplishes one goal, doubling the number of playable adventures.

It's not harder unless you make it so.
It's not easier to GM unless the players make it so.

This is probably in the morass of comments already here...

Is there any way to take the non-core GM credits and apply to a brand new character for which I wanted to be a Core character? That character would have never been used or modified for use in a non-core campaign.

This is probably in the morass of comments already here...

Is there any way to take the non-core GM credits and apply to a brand new character for which I wanted to be a Core character? That character would have never been used or modified for use in a non-core campaign.

No. The credit earned would have been non-CORE, so they cannot be applied to a CORE character, even one which hasn't been played.

Prethen wrote:

This is probably in the morass of comments already here...

Is there any way to take the non-core GM credits and apply to a brand new character for which I wanted to be a Core character? That character would have never been used or modified for use in a non-core campaign.

No. The credit earned would have been non-CORE, so they cannot be applied to a CORE character, even one which hasn't been played.

Awww...darn...what a shame. Fresh credit, fresh character, and still has to be non-core...bummer.

Drogon wrote:

...considering the negativity of the last few pages:...

Welcome to the Internet :(

"I am not interested in this thing, therefore it is objectively bad, and the people who like it are bad people, and the people who proposed it are "

WARNING, MESSAGE TERMINATED DUE TO GODWIN'S LAW

This kind of comment is not helpful. I was one who voiced concerns early on, I never said it was bad, nor did the majority of the "detractors". We simply voiced concerns and were treated with scorn and derision for our efforts. For the most part that has passed, your comment not withstanding.

Silhren Rilbahn,

Your local GMs' arguments don't hold water. GMing a Core Mode game earns them Core GM credits, that's correct, but any Core Mode character can be converted immediately into a Standard Mode character, just by sitting at a Standard Mode table or taking any non-Core elements.

So they can GM Core Mode, apply all that GM credit to a Core PC, and immediately play it as a Standard Mode character.

Their disinterest in playing a Core Mode PC is groundless.

Silhren Rilbahn,

Your local GMs' arguments don't hold water. GMing a Core Mode game earns them Core GM credits, that's correct, but any Core Mode character can be converted immediately into a Standard Mode character, just by sitting at a Standard Mode table or taking any non-Core elements.

So they can GM Core Mode, apply all that GM credit to a Core PC, and immediately play it as a Standard Mode character.

Their disinterest in playing a Core Mode PC is groundless.

Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Suppose I GM six Core scenarios (all Tier 1-5) and I apply that to the same character number. I could use that credit to build a Core-legal character and play in a Core game or a Normal game. (If I bring it in to Normal mode, it becomes a Normal mode character henceforth.)

But what I cannot do is build that character into a Tengu magus for his first played scenario, because he has to be a Core-legal character.

After I play him, I can retrain him using Ultimate Combat. But that might be prohibitively expensive in terms of gold and prestige, and of course I cannot retrain race or traits.

From that point of view, you cannot simply GM in Core and later port that character over into Normal mode.

Here is the post I am using as reference.

andreww wrote:

Michael Brock wrote:

You can assign Core Chronicle GM sheets to a core character only. However, that character can then be switched to a normal mode character, So, you could GM 12 Core mode games, assign them all to a Core mode character, and then switch that Core mode character over to normal mode and go from there. Granted you wouldn't be able to assign him future Core mode chronicles, but it is an option.

That does raise a GM credit baby question.

Lets say that I have those 12 chronicles on my nebulous GM character. He is technically level 5 but I haven't built him yet. Can I decide to switch him to non core at the point I build the actual character and make, say, a Magus or do I have to wait until he has played a non Core game before he can use non Core options?

You have to make a Core character with those Core Chronicles. You can't apply 12 Chronicles to a GM baby and then make a Magus from it.

Of course, there is an out for this: GM 5 scenarios in Core, then GM one scenario in Normal mode. Then the GM baby can be built into whatever Normal-legal character you want.

Here is the post I am using as reference for this.

Dhjika wrote:

When one GMs a game - one gets one chronicle sheet for their character regardless of whether it is Core or Not?

Or do you get a chronicle sheet for a Core Campaign character when you GM Core games, and an other when you judge other games? or can you mix? or do you get one for each?

Tia

You receive a Core Chrinicle if you GM a core game. You receive an existing mode chronicle if you GM an existing mode game. If you place an existing GM credit chronicle on a core character, it then defaults to existing mode character and is no longer a core character.

That's my understanding, yeah. Those Core GM credit Chronicles don't go to waste for GMs who only want to play in Standard Mode.

I read that differently: You can only use Core GM credits to make Core character. If you add Standard Mode GM Credit to the character it becomes a Standard Mode character, but these have to be applied in order.

You have to use the Core GM to build Core characters. Once you've built that character, compatible with the Core rules, you can then add a Standard GM credit (or play it in a standard game) and it automatically converts to a standard mode character. At that point you can add non-Core things in.

You can't rack up 5 Core GM credits and a Standard one and build a 3rd level alchemist. You have to build the character as a Core character and apply Chronicles one at a time, only taking non-Core options when you apply your first standard credit.

Now, I'm not sure why this restriction is necessary. If there turns out to be, as some have suggested, a lack of GMs willing to run Core games, changing this rule to allow Core chronicles to be applied to Standard characters might be a good idea.

Silhren Rilbahn,

Your local GMs' arguments don't hold water. GMing a Core Mode game earns them Core GM credits, that's correct, but any Core Mode character can be converted immediately into a Standard Mode character, just by sitting at a Standard Mode table or taking any non-Core elements.

So they can GM Core Mode, apply all that GM credit to a Core PC, and immediately play it as a Standard Mode character.

Their disinterest in playing a Core Mode PC is groundless.

I don't want any new PCs really at the moment, I'd rather add sheets on to my existing non-CORE PCs. That's why I'd decline a CORE sheet as a GM at this time. And if I did want to make a new PC, it probably wouldn't be a CORE class anyway. Useless.

That's my understanding, yeah. Those Core GM credit Chronicles don't go to waste for GMs who only want to play in Standard Mode.

Yeah, they kinda do, I think.

Well, in your case, yes, David, but only because you don't ever want to start a new PC with GM credit.

(Or are you under the impression that GM credit expires in some way if unused?)

Chris Mortika wrote:

That's my understanding, yeah. Those Core GM credit Chronicles don't go to waste for GMs who only want to play in Standard Mode.

Yeah, they kinda do, I think.

You can't stack 6 XP on them like in The Fox's example...but if you put 2 XP on a character, then play it once for the 3rd in normal you can rebuild that into any legal character you want before you play at 2nd level. Actually, you could probably just put the 3rd XP on with non-core GM credit to and do the same thing.

Since you can now apply GM credit as if it was pregen credit, you can apply any GM chronicle to these new credit babies. You are limited to how far you can go with them with CORE credit, but it can be used to start a lot of characters if that was your wish, without spamming the Tier 1-2 scenario/modules.

in my local group we have 3 people who have stated that they will now START judging - one will be running her first game Saturday (we expect to have two tables - I expect that the second table will be run by one of the other beginners...),

If it weren't for CORE, they would not have started judging....

That's my understanding, yeah. Those Core GM credit Chronicles don't go to waste for GMs who only want to play in Standard Mode.

They're pretty useless if you want a non core race, class, feat, trait, or all of the above. A single core EXP limits you to the core book for race/class/trait. So yes. It's pretty wasted.

Well, in your case, yes, David, but only because you don't ever want to start a new PC with GM credit.

(Or are you under the impression that GM credit expires in some way if unused?)

It doesn't matter, because I'm very unlikely to ever play a core class again. The next two PCs I would make are from the ACG.

Build fighter, multiclass out. It's like taking a prestige class with no prereqs! :D

First: if a player or GM has a bunch of additional restrictions on themselves like "won't play core classes" or "won't start a PC with GM credit", blaming core for their inability to play is silly. Self-limitation is, well, limiting.

Second: if your GMs only GM to get player Chronicles, try expanding your player base. We have a bunch of people who prefer to GM, and even run a scenario more than once - with NO CHRONICLE (GASP!) - because it's fun and they get good at it and every experience is different and...

Seriously. If credit is all that drives your local Lodge, it is doomed. Even with Core Campaign, you will eventually run out of scenarios unless you play less than twice a month.

First: if a player or GM has a bunch of additional restrictions on themselves like "won't play core classes" or "won't start a PC with GM credit", blaming core for their inability to play is silly. Self-limitation is, well, limiting.

Maybe people who have played nothing but core prior to this point could be burnt out on core and want to try the other classes? If someone isn't interested in a product, it means it doesn't appeal to them. Yeah, it isn't hurting them, but it sure as hell isn't helping them either.

Is it wrong for players to comment and let it be known they feel left out since the core-campaign seems to be more about encouraging more people to try GMing?

First: if a player or GM has a bunch of additional restrictions on themselves like "won't play core classes" or "won't start a PC with GM credit", blaming core for their inability to play is silly. Self-limitation is, well, limiting.

Second: if your GMs only GM to get player Chronicles, try expanding your player base. We have a bunch of people who prefer to GM, and even run a scenario more than once - with NO CHRONICLE (GASP!) - because it's fun and they get good at it and every experience is different and...

Seriously. If credit is all that drives your local Lodge, it is doomed. Even with Core Campaign, you will eventually run out of scenarios unless you play less than twice a month.

"

I don't GM just to get chronicle sheets. So I don't have a problem with that. However, I think it's fair for players like myself to claim burnout on core classes. Some of us have been playing them since 2000.

Build fighter, multiclass out. It's like taking a prestige class with no prereqs! :D

Not so much.

The Core Campaign seems to be more of a distraction/bandage to let people re-play scenarios while trying to recruit new GMs at the same time. It's not a terrible idea, but this isn't for everyone.

Seriously. If credit is all that drives your local Lodge, it is doomed. Even with Core Campaign, you will eventually run out of scenarios unless you play less than twice a month.

I will only GM high level stuff more than once because it's by far the most fun I have GMing. I hate low level stuff with a firey passion because it's boring. Level 1-3 can basically only be challenging with gimp characters or atrocious party comps. Heck The pregen barb and pregen cleric just as a 2 man team is overkill for 99% of all 1-2s.

I will never GM a 1-5 without credit because there are evergreens which can get you to 2 and it's not a hard ask to get to 3.

As for a lodge being doomed if they want credit even if you have say 12 tables a month. If you have 12 GM's and each does one table a month guess what, you'll have tables until every adventure has been run many times.

You're simply wrong. Each GM can play something then GM it, given that we have several venues here but each only runs 1 or at a maximum 2 tables when we get 8 or 9 people to show up it's not abnormal to have an adventure run for a GM then that GM to go and run it somewhere else allowing another GM to run it and the first GM can participate in it.

It is completely viable to get credit for every single sheet for every single GM.

It is completely viable to get credit for every single sheet for every single GM.

I was actually going to stop taking credit for scenarios beyond 1-5 before they updated the guide to explicitly allow GMs to apply high level credit to 1st level characters. I didn't want to apply GM credit and lose out on high level play experience because of it. But I'm tired of slogging through 1st and 2nd level after so many campaigns abort before getting out of there. So I understand David's burnout on playing the core classes. I'm burnt out on playing low level games.

Undone wrote:

It is completely viable to get credit for every single sheet for every single GM.

I was actually going to stop taking credit for scenarios beyond 1-5 before they updated the guide to explicitly allow GMs to apply high level credit to 1st level characters. I didn't want to apply GM credit and lose out on high level play experience because of it. But I'm tired of slogging through 1st and 2nd level after so many campaigns abort before getting out of there. So I understand David's burnout on playing the core classes. I'm burnt out on playing low level games.

Maybe with core only now existing we can shuffle some 1-5s into 3-7s, some 3-7s into 5-9s, and some 5-9s into 7-11 to shift the distribution back to where it previously was rather than focusing so much on 1-5 play which some of us (especially in core only) have done ad nauseum.

I will only ...

I hate ...

I will never ...

This is not a problem of the Core Campaign.

I'd also like to address the notion that 1-5 scenarios aren't "challenging" enough. At first, I couldn't understand this, but then I realized that I was ignoring my built-in bias: I like role-playing. To me, I enjoy more than just the combats - it's the interaction with the other players in character, with the NPCs, with the setting, that makes the game memorable for me.

I realize that not everyone shares the same expectation of what PFS is. For some, PFS is a tactical war game, and that's fine, too - but since that is not what the campaign is designed for, you really have no reason to get upset when the campaign doesn't cater to supplying that experience to you. If your GM just puts a map down and rolls initiative five times and hands you a sheet of paper, of course it's going to get boring! But that is not the only type of challenge an RPG can provide. Some of the most challenging scenarios I've played have been in 1-5. YMMV, of course.

You're simply wrong. (...) It is completely viable to get credit for every single sheet for every single GM.

As long as you play in a small situation, yes - but you will continue to be playing in a small situation. We run about 35 tables a month, but we don't have 35 GMs, and everyone wants to play certain scenarios, so several GMs are running scenarios more than once. We also have GMs who build awesome terrain, and would like to use it more than once as well. There are lots of reasons to GM something for no credit. Just because you can't see them doesn't mean they don't exist.

My primary hobby is wargaming, so I do have a tendency to view everything through that lens. Probably why I'm one of the more tactically challenging GMs that my local players sit with.

I am just glad to see 'another' way of getting a different flavor out of game while still being part of PFS. Some of us, who have played Pathfinder for years, really look forward to the chance of dialing it down a notch and being less concerned with the right class and archetype combos- so common in the arms race.

Seth Gipson wrote:

A friend just pointed out to me that as per the post above, there cant be any animal companions/familiars/mounts in the Core Campaign, as it doesnt say anything about the Bestiarys...

Similarly, that would work the same for Wild Shape/ the 'Form' spells.

I assume this likely means stuff from Bestiary 1 is legal for those purposes?

Druid animal companions are listed on pages 53-54 of the CRB.

If an entry, such as paladin or ranger, that lists a bonded mount or animal companions., and it doesn't list stats in the CRB, it automatically defaults to the Bestiary.

However this doesn't answer the more specific question of Wildshape - is Bestiary 1 the only animal forms available to a Druid for the Wildshape ability?

Michael Brock wrote:

Seth Gipson wrote:

A friend just pointed out to me that as per the post above, there cant be any animal companions/familiars/mounts in the Core Campaign, as it doesnt say anything about the Bestiarys...

Similarly, that would work the same for Wild Shape/ the 'Form' spells.

I assume this likely means stuff from Bestiary 1 is legal for those purposes?

Druid animal companions are listed on pages 53-54 of the CRB.

If an entry, such as paladin or ranger, that lists a bonded mount or animal companions., and it doesn't list stats in the CRB, it automatically defaults to the Bestiary.

However this doesn't answer the more specific question of Wildshape - is Bestiary 1 the only animal forms available to a Druid for the Wildshape ability?

Yes unless a Chronicle sheet opens up something different.

Does the GM Star Reward boon, Master of Spell (5 Stars), apply to my Core characters, allowing the spell use of Blend and Ward of the Season (spells I have already chosen)?

Cronge, I had the same question, but I don't think so. Each Chronicle, including the GM Star Reward Boons, is for either Standard Mode or Core Mode. If you have over 200 games, and wanted to assign a new GM Rewards Boon sheet to a Core Mode PC, then I think that would work (but it'll take some time to get your Core Mode PC up to 9th level).

Cronge, I had the same question, but I don't think so. Each Chronicle, including the GM Star Reward Boons, is for either Standard Mode or Core Mode. If you have over 200 games, and wanted to assign a new GM Rewards Boon sheet to a Core Mode PC, then I think that would work (but it'll take some time to get your Core Mode PC up to 9th level).

Bah... I am at 240 games currently. In 10 more I will do just that. Blend is just too awesome!

Chris Mortika wrote:

Cronge, I had the same question, but I don't think so. Each Chronicle, including the GM Star Reward Boons, is for either Standard Mode or Core Mode. If you have over 200 games, and wanted to assign a new GM Rewards Boon sheet to a Core Mode PC, then I think that would work (but it'll take some time to get your Core Mode PC up to 9th level).

Bah... I am at 240 games currently. In 10 more I will do just that. Blend is just too awesome!

Its exactly that kind of spell that SHOULD be outlawed in Core. The new player proudly sits down with his rogue and finds it is hard to stay stealthy in combat. While, beside him, the druid merrily stealths away in the open. So much for Core protecting his relevance as a character

Or the new GM finds their level 5 scenario destroyed by a character who functionally almost has improved invisibility for the entire scenario.

That spell is significantly overpowered in Standard, its positively obscene in Core.

Its exactly that kind of spell that SHOULD be outlawed in Core. The new player proudly sits down with his rogue and finds it is hard to stay stealthy in combat. While, beside him, the druid merrily stealths away in the open. So much for Core protecting his relevance as a character

Or the new GM finds their level 5 scenario destroyed by a character who functionally almost has improved invisibility for the entire scenario.

That spell is significantly overpowered in Standard, its positively obscene in Core.

And by about 7-8 the wizard can STILL craft a ring of invisibility and summon. Just saying. Core solves very few power level issues. If you enjoy it that's fine but take it for what it is, a chance to replay and a chance to make more characters.

This is not a problem of the Core Campaign.

Neither is this

As long as you play in a small situation, yes - but you will continue to be playing in a small situation. We run about 35 tables a month, but we don't have 35 GMs, and everyone wants to play certain scenarios, so several GMs are running scenarios more than once. We also have GMs who build awesome terrain, and would like to use it more than once as well. There are lots of reasons to GM something for no credit. Just because you can't see them doesn't mean they don't exist.

A solution provided by CC.

pauljathome wrote:

Its exactly that kind of spell that SHOULD be outlawed in Core. The new player proudly sits down with his rogue and finds it is hard to stay stealthy in combat. While, beside him, the druid merrily stealths away in the open. So much for Core protecting his relevance as a character

Or the new GM finds their level 5 scenario destroyed by a character who functionally almost has improved invisibility for the entire scenario.

That spell is significantly overpowered in Standard, its positively obscene in Core.

And by about 7-8 the wizard can STILL craft a ring of invisibility and summon. Just saying. Core solves very few power level issues. If you enjoy it that's fine but take it for what it is, a chance to replay and a chance to make more characters.

A 1st level spell that lasts for 10 minutes/level vs a 20,000gp item (no crafting in PFS), not really a comparison.

A 1st level spell that lasts for 10 minutes/level vs a 20,000gp item (no crafting in PFS), not really a comparison.

Core only does not prevent a wizard from crafting a bonded ring.

thejeff wrote:

A 1st level spell that lasts for 10 minutes/level vs a 20,000gp item (no crafting in PFS), not really a comparison.

Core only does not prevent a wizard from crafting a bonded ring.

Technically true. It's still a 10K, now singular, item versus a 1st level spell.

A 1st level spell that lasts for 10 minutes/level vs a 20,000gp item (no crafting in PFS), not really a comparison.

And in many ways blend is MORE powerful than a ring of invisibility, especially at higher levels when there tend to be LOTS of counters to invisibility.

By level 8 a character concentrating on stealth is going to fairly easily have something on the order of a +30 stealth modifier. Not much sees that. Heck, you can glitterdust it and it will still manage to be stealthy at least a fair bit of the time.

CORE doesn't stop all power issues. But it IS intended to stop egregious power creep like this spell is.

Caveat: I should have put the following in my original post. Can't edit that one now.

I've played with Cronge and I'm pretty sure that he wouldn't use this to break the game. Hopefully that is true of all 5 star GMs. But I'd prefer they not have the chance. Human nature being what it is it is MUCH easier to notice that another character is too powerful than to notice that your own is.

Edit: added above caveat

Once I get everything fixed up for this PbP Game Day, Ill go ahead and toss out a few Core PFS PbPs and see if anyone bites.

There are a few out already. I'm in a PbP CORE Confirmation that is just getting ready to start.

This was asked above but I figured I'd ask in the most straightforward manner possible

Mike, would

The Spells Know All Secrets (9th-Level, 5 Stars): Together with Aram Zey, you have studied the spellcasting secrets of another race and reverse-engineered a closely-guarded incantation. Choose one legal, race-specific spell from Chapter 1 of Pathfinder RPG Advanced Race Guide (except paragon surge). So long as you possess this boon, all of your Pathfinder Society Organized Play characters have access to this spell as if they were members of that race.

allow you to get a ARG spell into core?

Also, can you take the GM rewards chronicle once in each campaign or just once in either campaign?

Sorry if this is a repost. I am wanting to know what languages are open to a core character. I am wanting to know if any of the national languages are available to core characters?

Mike said next Monday's Paizo blog(2/9) will go into detail on languages

my only grip with this, and I literally mean only, is the restriction of the classes used.

The newer classes, including those on the soon to come book. so thats disappointing cause the base classes I find a little bland (I love my arcanist, well both of them they are dead, but the third would be better I swear)

but oh well, the rest of it sounds great

my only grip with this, and I literally mean only, is the restriction of the classes used.

The newer classes, including those on the soon to come book. so thats disappointing cause the base classes I find a little bland (I love my arcanist, well both of them they are dead, but the third would be better I swear)

but oh well, the rest of it sounds great

All of those other classes are still available in the Classic PFS Campaign still (and I suspect that the new ones will be made available in the Classic Campaign as well).