Meet the Iconics: Zadim

Thursday, July 24, 2014

Today we introduce the next of the new iconic characters from the Advanced Class Guide: Zadim the slayer. Zadim will also be a playable character in the Pathfinder Adventure Card Game: Wrath of the Righteous set due for release in February 2015.


Illustration by Wayne Reynolds

Open hostilities between the kingdoms of Taldor and Qadira ceased more than 200 years ago, but subtle squabbles and sub-rosa schemes continue to the present. Often these intrigues take the form of economic influence or political stratagems, but occasionally, when the stakes are high enough, they extend to outright atrocities. Triggering these strikes (or answering them in kind) without sparking an open war requires an agent with particular expertise. An agent like Zadim.

Zadim, the so-called "Shadow of Sarenrae," travels the lands of the Inner Sea as an associate of Sarenrae's church, providing deadly solutions to problems the religion cannot resolve through diplomacy and forgiveness. The world of Golarion teems with misguided folk who can be turned from darkness, but it also contains multitudes who are beyond redemption, who revel in evil, wickedness, and selfishness. Zadim is one answer to their depravities, and his response comes with an unmistakable air of finality. Zadim was born into Qadira's influential Cult of the Dawnflower, a militant sect devoted to rooting out evil and spreading Sarenrae's light throughout foreign lands cloaked in the darkness of ignorance. His early studies at the great temple in Katheer distinguished Zadim as a dedicated servant of the cult. True, Zadim lacked the divine connection to the goddess that granted many of his fellow cultists command over fabulous magic powers, but his acumen in other affairs soon gained the attention of the cult's inner circle. Zadim excelled in battle training, easily besting his young peers in combat. He also proved himself an expert in observation and understanding, often taking advantage of personality quirks and tells among his fellows that they weren't even aware they had. The cult's leaders knew exactly what they had in Zadim—a weapon to strike killing blows against their enemies.

Zadim's masters began tempering their stories of Sarenrae's mercy and redemption with encouragement to bring justice to the irredeemable. They revealed the scope of their designs not just on familiar foes like the creaking "empire" of Taldor to the north, but also on places like Osirion, Katapesh, and Absalom. Zadim was trained to stand in the shadowy vanguard of their efforts throughout the Inner Sea region, clearing away enemies with blade and garrote long before the more visible elements of the Dawnflower Cult made their presence known.

As the depth of the cult's plan became clear to him, Zadim began to realize that his masters were just as interested in spreading the political influence of Qadira—and its distant puppetmasters in the Padishah Empire of Kelesh far to the east—as they were in spreading the doctrine of the Everlight, but the revelation came too late to inspire a change in Zadim's direction. He had trained for years to become a killer, and kill he must, in the name of Qadira, Kelesh, or the cult. Sarenrae had blessed him with unique talents, and he intended to put them to use in the field.

Zadim's first assignment outside Qadira was meant to be easy, a clear-cut case of a true villain deserving of the cult's final justice. The noble Sir Gordreth Chrysolian—Gordreth the Butcher—had been an administrator in the Taldan caravan city of Yanmass when he publicly executed twenty clerics of Sarenrae about 30 years ago, during a particularly vicious Taldan pogrom against the Cult of the Dawnflower. Shortly thereafter, the Butcher vanished, escaping divine retribution for his unholy crimes. Recently, though, agents of the cult spotted the aging aristocrat in Yanmass, and Zadim was dispatched to put him to the blade.

Upon arriving at the caravan city, Zadim learned from his informants that the Butcher had sought asylum at the manor house of a respected paladin of Abadar named Jevantus, who had gained widespread acclaim in the city after using his god-given abilities to cure hundreds of children infected with the deadly dvezda plague. Further investigation revealed that the paladin Jevantus and Gordreth the Butcher were one and the same man. The decades in hiding must have taught the vile Taldan noble something of chivalry and honor, for Abadar himself blessed the one-time villain with miraculous powers of healing.

A chance encounter with a fellow servant of Sarenrae, an earnest young cleric named Kyra, triggered a crisis of faith in Zadim, and the killer revealed his role in the plot to the young woman. Kyra, who subscribed to a far less militant doctrine than that preached by the Dawnflower Cult, rejected Zadim's bloody tactics, reminding him that Sarenrae herself valued goodness, redemption, and healing over murderous tactics, no matter the quarry. If Gordreth the Butcher had truly been redeemed, killing him for past deeds meant directly violating the most holy values of Sarenrae, erasing the man's redemption in an act of bloody murder.

Such an affront, she assured, would be enough for Sarenrae to withdraw her favor from a dedicated follower, stripping away the divine bond so important to the servant's faith and work. But Zadim was not a cleric, and had no spells to lose. His duty was not just to Sarenrae, but to his masters in the Cult of the Dawnflower, and to Qadira, and to the Padishah Empire of Kelesh. If they decreed that Gordreth the Butcher must die, who was Zadim to deny their wisdom? He assured Kyra that he would not strike against the paladin, but to himself he resolved that he could not make the decision of whether his target would live or die until he could look him in the eye and judge the quality of his character for himself.

That evening, Zadim crept into the private gardens of Jevantus, kukris in hand, his pounding heart nearly giving him away with its thundering. At the center of the garden he discovered the old paladin praying to Abadar before a beautiful fountain. Statues of children rescued from the ravages of disease peered over the paladin's shoulder as Zadim stepped silently toward his prey. As he approached, the paladin turned toward Zadim, a strange expression of calm and acceptance marked upon his visage. It was as if he had expected such a visitor for many years, and knew that final judgment had finally arrived.

As he looked into the eyes of his quarry at last, fists clenched around the hilts of his hungry blades, Zadim made his choice.

Erik Mona
Publisher

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Tags: Iconics Meet the Iconics Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Slayer Wayne Reynolds
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I seem to have lost my dot.


so any guesses on what the next class preview is going to be?


Blackvial wrote:
so any guesses on what the next class preview is going to be?

Who's left?


DominusMegadeus wrote:
Blackvial wrote:
so any guesses on what the next class preview is going to be?
Who's left?

Shaman and Hunter, so there is a 50/50 chance


I don't know much of anything about those two, but just from the image I get of them, I hope it's Shaman next.

Hunter sounds like a Ranger knock-off.


DominusMegadeus wrote:

I don't know much of anything about those two, but just from the image I get of them, I hope it's Shaman next.

Hunter sounds like a Ranger knock-off.

it's a combination of Druid and Ranger with up to 6th level spells and an animal companion at 1st level


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

That sounds like a weaker druid knockoff then. If they beef up the saves and base attack bonus, there may not be much of a mechanical reason to play a ranger over a shaman.


Ravingdork wrote:
That sounds like a weaker druid knockoff then. If they beef up the saves and base attack bonus, there may not be much of a mechanical reason to play a ranger over a shaman.

hunter has druids bab and rangers saves, gets teamwork feats, and gets animal based abilities that can be applied to their animal companion or themselves


Blackvial wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:
That sounds like a weaker druid knockoff then. If they beef up the saves and base attack bonus, there may not be much of a mechanical reason to play a ranger over a shaman.
hunter has druids bab and rangers saves, gets teamwork feats, and gets animal based abilities that can be applied to their animal companion or themselves

Plus ranger's weapon/armor proficiency. The hunter stands out because it's based all around companion synergy, much more than the druid.


Athel wrote:
Blackvial wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:
That sounds like a weaker druid knockoff then. If they beef up the saves and base attack bonus, there may not be much of a mechanical reason to play a ranger over a shaman.
hunter has druids bab and rangers saves, gets teamwork feats, and gets animal based abilities that can be applied to their animal companion or themselves
Plus ranger's weapon/armor proficiency. The hunter stands out because it's based all around companion synergy, much more than the druid.

More accurate to the playtest, hunter stands out because its supposed to be about those things, while being objectively worse in damn near every way. I really hope their preview of that one opens with something along the lines of "realizing how bad it was, we've rebuilt the hunter from the ground up." So that I can get excited about the class I was most excited about when it was announced.


Ryuko wrote:
Athel wrote:
Plus ranger's weapon/armor proficiency. The hunter stands out because it's based all around companion synergy, much more than the druid.
More accurate to the playtest, hunter stands out because its supposed to be about those things, while being objectively worse in damn near every way. I really hope their preview of that one opens with something along the lines of "realizing how bad it was, we've rebuilt the hunter from the ground up." So that I can get excited about the class I was most excited about when it was announced.

Wouldn't "rebuilding it from the ground up" contradict the purpose of playtesting?

I'm not knocking the idea of improvements, but I never played a Hunter in the playtest so I never got an idea of what needed to be improved.

Liberty's Edge

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Captain K. wrote:
Tiny, tiny concern that this religious fundamentalist is a professional killer and looks Arabic... Golarion reflects the real world in funny ways.

Actually, I get a Nazi-hunter / Mossad operative vibe from Zadim's story and motivations.

My guess for the ending is that he DID kill the Paladin because he saw that this was the fate the Paladin himself accepted as just punishment for his crimes and Zadim will not refuse this to an honorable man.


Athel wrote:
Blackvial wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:
That sounds like a weaker druid knockoff then. If they beef up the saves and base attack bonus, there may not be much of a mechanical reason to play a ranger over a shaman.
hunter has druids bab and rangers saves, gets teamwork feats, and gets animal based abilities that can be applied to their animal companion or themselves
Plus ranger's weapon/armor proficiency. The hunter stands out because it's based all around companion synergy, much more than the druid.

Animal companions suck at higher levels, at least in boss fights, and I personally dislike teamwork feats as do most, if not all, in our gaming group. If the class is supposed to be an archer that lets it pet be the melee buddy, how is the hunter going to hit with his bow if he has 3/4 BAB?

/end of thread jack.

Dark Archive Vendor - Fantasiapelit Tampere

Great twist to the class, liked it so much. Great ending, and I loved the cameo of Kyra :) Keep up the good work, Erik!

Grand Lodge

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Zark wrote:

[ If the class is supposed to be an archer that lets it pet be the melee buddy, how is the hunter going to hit with his bow if he has 3/4 BAB?

If a pet attacks a target one of the teamwork feats a hunter should be using with his pet is Precise Companion, which effectively gives the Hunter Precise Shot vs that target. As for the 3/4 BAB being an issue, WarPriests, and Magi seem to do well enough.


LazarX wrote:
Zark wrote:

[ If the class is supposed to be an archer that lets it pet be the melee buddy, how is the hunter going to hit with his bow if he has 3/4 BAB?

If a pet attacks a target one of the teamwork feats a hunter should be using with his pet is Precise Companion, which effectively gives the Hunter Precise Shot vs that target. As for the 3/4 BAB being an issue, WarPriests, and Magi seem to do well enough.

don't forget bards and inquisitors also have the 3/4th BAB and they seem to do just fine


1 person marked this as a favorite.
LazarX wrote:
Zark wrote:

[ If the class is supposed to be an archer that lets it pet be the melee buddy, how is the hunter going to hit with his bow if he has 3/4 BAB?

If a pet attacks a target one of the teamwork feats a hunter should be using with his pet is Precise Companion, which effectively gives the Hunter Precise Shot vs that target. As for the 3/4 BAB being an issue, WarPriests, and Magi seem to do well enough.

Magi, Inquisitors, and Bards all have a way to raise their to-hit/damage by significant amounts to make up for the 3/4 BaB, on top of their spells.

The Hunter does not.

Liberty's Edge

Rynjin wrote:

Magi, Inquisitors, and Bards all have a way to raise their to-hit/damage by significant amounts to make up for the 3/4 BaB, on top of their spells.

The Hunter does not.

Or didn't in the playtest anyway. Maybe they do now. Mark Seifter said there was a subtle difference that improved them immensely...and it occurs to me that Animal Focus being changed from an Enhancement Bonus to something more useful (and maybe being modified a bit) would do a lot all by itself, for example.

Liberty's Edge

Rynjin wrote:
LazarX wrote:
Zark wrote:

[ If the class is supposed to be an archer that lets it pet be the melee buddy, how is the hunter going to hit with his bow if he has 3/4 BAB?

If a pet attacks a target one of the teamwork feats a hunter should be using with his pet is Precise Companion, which effectively gives the Hunter Precise Shot vs that target. As for the 3/4 BAB being an issue, WarPriests, and Magi seem to do well enough.

Magi, Inquisitors, and Bards all have a way to raise their to-hit/damage by significant amounts to make up for the 3/4 BaB, on top of their spells.

The Hunter does not.

That's not even really true, particularly if you buy that the hunter is "supposed to be an archer that lets it pet be the melee buddy." Enfilading Fire and Coordinated Shot alone are worth +3 or +4 to attacks, which lets you use Animal Focus to boost your Strength, not normally a top priority for archers even allowing for it being an enhancement bonus.


True, as long as an alley aren’t providing cover against your ranged attacks and providing that the foe is flanked by 1 or more allies with this feat. Considering that a lot of animal companions will be large partial cover will be common and setting up flanks can be problematic.

I hope this isn’t what the class is offered because it would indicate that the Devs is repeating one of the same mistakes they did with the rogue, must flank deal damage. Also they get Hunter tactics at level 3.

Rynjin is right.

Rynjin wrote:


Magi, Inquisitors, and Bards all have a way to raise their to-hit/damage by significant amounts to make up for the 3/4 BaB, on top of their spells.

The Hunter does not.

It isn't the hunter that have a ways to raise her to-hit/damage, it is others that do it for her. She is depended on others for that. Although that might have changed.


The sad reality of the Cult of the Dawnflower is that it's slowly being turned and twisted into a method for conquest and war by Qadira and the Padishah Empire of Kelesh. There might end up being a HUGE SCHISM in the church of Sarenrae because of this.

Also, Cranky Dog? I really REALLY like your version of Zadim's decision (it's alot better and far more thought out than my own). I wonder how long Zadim would be able to "walk the line" between Sarenrae's teachings and Qadira/Kelesh's ambitions (if he made the choice to spare "the butcher" and exaggerate the truth about it to his superiors that is).

I think ultimately he would have to end up making a choice about which was more important to him.

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Charter Superscriber
Berselius wrote:
The sad reality of the Cult of the Dawnflower is that it's slowly being turned and twisted into a method for conquest and war by Qadira and the Padishah Empire of Kelesh. There might end up being a HUGE SCHISM in the church of Sarenrae because of this.

I think the real question is who or what will take advantage of the schism and impersonate Sarenrae to lead certain members of the cult astray. Demon, Devil, Daemon... Anybody want to start a pool on the likely suspect?

Also, exactly how many kukris would Zadim need to rectify the problem?


Kvantum wrote:
Berselius wrote:
The sad reality of the Cult of the Dawnflower is that it's slowly being turned and twisted into a method for conquest and war by Qadira and the Padishah Empire of Kelesh. There might end up being a HUGE SCHISM in the church of Sarenrae because of this.

I think the real question is who or what will take advantage of the schism and impersonate Sarenrae to lead certain members of the cult astray. Demon, Devil, Daemon... Anybody want to start a pool on the likely suspect?

Also, exactly how many kukris would Zadim need to rectify the problem?

Seducing people off the path of good and causing them to fall to evil? Definitely a devil thing.


Tels wrote:
Kvantum wrote:
Berselius wrote:
The sad reality of the Cult of the Dawnflower is that it's slowly being turned and twisted into a method for conquest and war by Qadira and the Padishah Empire of Kelesh. There might end up being a HUGE SCHISM in the church of Sarenrae because of this.

I think the real question is who or what will take advantage of the schism and impersonate Sarenrae to lead certain members of the cult astray. Demon, Devil, Daemon... Anybody want to start a pool on the likely suspect?

Also, exactly how many kukris would Zadim need to rectify the problem?

Seducing people off the path of good and causing them to fall to evil? Definitely a devil thing.

Demon, Succubus


Ipslore the Red wrote:
Tels wrote:
Kvantum wrote:
Berselius wrote:
The sad reality of the Cult of the Dawnflower is that it's slowly being turned and twisted into a method for conquest and war by Qadira and the Padishah Empire of Kelesh. There might end up being a HUGE SCHISM in the church of Sarenrae because of this.

I think the real question is who or what will take advantage of the schism and impersonate Sarenrae to lead certain members of the cult astray. Demon, Devil, Daemon... Anybody want to start a pool on the likely suspect?

Also, exactly how many kukris would Zadim need to rectify the problem?

Seducing people off the path of good and causing them to fall to evil? Definitely a devil thing.
Demon, Succubus

Succubi are the exception. Demons, as a theme, enjoy tormenting the flesh of mortals and destroying their bodies. Devils enjoy corrupting their minds and souls, turning them to evil. Daemons enjoy feasting on their souls and ending the lives of mortals.

So, with a theme of corrupting the Cult of the Dawnflower would fall more under the purview of the Devils, than the Demons.

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Glabrezu demons are pretty keen on getting mortals to use their wish ability for terrible things. Pazuzu loves to target the innocent for such endeavors - as evil mortals no longer have anything to corrupt about them.

Devils, as a race, are more interested in the corruption business, but that doesn't mean demons don't try it. It's more for 'kicks and giggles' for the latter.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Tels wrote:
Kvantum wrote:
Berselius wrote:
The sad reality of the Cult of the Dawnflower is that it's slowly being turned and twisted into a method for conquest and war by Qadira and the Padishah Empire of Kelesh. There might end up being a HUGE SCHISM in the church of Sarenrae because of this.

I think the real question is who or what will take advantage of the schism and impersonate Sarenrae to lead certain members of the cult astray. Demon, Devil, Daemon... Anybody want to start a pool on the likely suspect?

Also, exactly how many kukris would Zadim need to rectify the problem?

Seducing people off the path of good and causing them to fall to evil? Definitely a devil thing.

The problem is ... is that it cheapens the plot. One of my favorite stories is that of a devil fuming about the invention of the atomic bomb and dropping over a city full of people. The devil is fuming because he did not think of it first.

When everything is in the end the responsibility of a demon, devil, or god, it pretty much dehumanizes the story.


LazarX wrote:
Tels wrote:
Kvantum wrote:
Berselius wrote:
The sad reality of the Cult of the Dawnflower is that it's slowly being turned and twisted into a method for conquest and war by Qadira and the Padishah Empire of Kelesh. There might end up being a HUGE SCHISM in the church of Sarenrae because of this.

I think the real question is who or what will take advantage of the schism and impersonate Sarenrae to lead certain members of the cult astray. Demon, Devil, Daemon... Anybody want to start a pool on the likely suspect?

Also, exactly how many kukris would Zadim need to rectify the problem?

Seducing people off the path of good and causing them to fall to evil? Definitely a devil thing.

The problem is ... is that it cheapens the plot. One of my favorite stories is that of a devil fuming about the invention of the atomic bomb and dropping over a city full of people. The devil is fuming because he did not think of it first.

When everything is in the end the responsibility of a demon, devil, or god, it pretty much dehumanizes the story.

I agree, but I think the Devils might whisper in their ears. I mean, give a kid a match and he'll burn down a forest. In a way, you are responsible, as you gave the kid the match, but what you really did, was enabled them.

I could see the Devils enabling the Cult of the Dawnflower to go down an even darker path with some well placed whispers. What actions they take with the whispers is up to them.

For example, the Devils plant whispers that a city is being corrupted by vile, heretical cultists. The Devils may expect the Dawnflowers to move in and impose a tyrannical witch hunt for the cultists. What they didn't expect was for the Dawnflowers to burn the entire city to the ground, executing every mand, woman and child in an effort to 'purge the filth'.

Mortals are quite capable of their own heinous acts. All it takes is for someone to ignite a spark, which is where the Devils come in.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

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Tels wrote:
Ipslore the Red wrote:
Tels wrote:
Kvantum wrote:
Berselius wrote:
The sad reality of the Cult of the Dawnflower is that it's slowly being turned and twisted into a method for conquest and war by Qadira and the Padishah Empire of Kelesh. There might end up being a HUGE SCHISM in the church of Sarenrae because of this.

I think the real question is who or what will take advantage of the schism and impersonate Sarenrae to lead certain members of the cult astray. Demon, Devil, Daemon... Anybody want to start a pool on the likely suspect?

Also, exactly how many kukris would Zadim need to rectify the problem?

Seducing people off the path of good and causing them to fall to evil? Definitely a devil thing.
Demon, Succubus

Succubi are the exception. Demons, as a theme, enjoy tormenting the flesh of mortals and destroying their bodies. Devils enjoy corrupting their minds and souls, turning them to evil. Daemons enjoy feasting on their souls and ending the lives of mortals.

So, with a theme of corrupting the Cult of the Dawnflower would fall more under the purview of the Devils, than the Demons.

Actually, succubi are not the exception.

Demons are, in fact, all about luring people off the path of good into sin, because when you're a sinful chaotic evil person and you die, your soul goes to the Abyss and becomes a new demon. Seducing/luring mortals to evil is, in fact, the primary way in which demons reproduce.

Devils are actually more about tricking people into committing evil on their own, and about recruiting them into the overall scheme of Hell. Devils corrupt faith and loyalty, in ways that are generally more subtle than demons, which use typically use temptations like the seven deadly sins.

But it's something they both do.


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Out of curiosity, will there ever be an Adventure Path with the Cult of the Dawnflower being the villain in it? Or at least, one of the primary villainous organizations in it? Because that would be pretty cool, I think.


Quote:
I think the real question is who or what will take advantage of the schism and impersonate Sarenrae to lead certain members of the cult astray. Demon, Devil, Daemon... Anybody want to start a pool on the likely suspect?

I'm surprised no one has thought of the Rakshasas. I could definitely see a Maharaja or [heaven help Golarion] a Rajadhiraja attempting to usurp and corrupt Sarenrae's faith).

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Tels wrote:
LazarX wrote:
Tels wrote:
Kvantum wrote:
Berselius wrote:
The sad reality of the Cult of the Dawnflower is that it's slowly being turned and twisted into a method for conquest and war by Qadira and the Padishah Empire of Kelesh. There might end up being a HUGE SCHISM in the church of Sarenrae because of this.

I think the real question is who or what will take advantage of the schism and impersonate Sarenrae to lead certain members of the cult astray. Demon, Devil, Daemon... Anybody want to start a pool on the likely suspect?

Also, exactly how many kukris would Zadim need to rectify the problem?

Seducing people off the path of good and causing them to fall to evil? Definitely a devil thing.

The problem is ... is that it cheapens the plot. One of my favorite stories is that of a devil fuming about the invention of the atomic bomb and dropping over a city full of people. The devil is fuming because he did not think of it first.

When everything is in the end the responsibility of a demon, devil, or god, it pretty much dehumanizes the story.

I agree, but I think the Devils might whisper in their ears. I mean, give a kid a match and he'll burn down a forest. In a way, you are responsible, as you gave the kid the match, but what you really did, was enabled them.

That's a difference only in slight degree. Sometimes for the purposes of story, it's best that mortals spawn their own evil.


Quote:
That's a difference only in slight degree. Sometimes for the purposes of story, it's best that mortals spawn their own evil.

Isn't that what fiends try to get mortals to do? A devil may tempt a mortal with a contract which, if signed, grants power but it's ultimately up to the mortal to make the choice (and possibly the sacrifice of an innocent needed to summon aforementioned devil).

Granted, there's probably ALOT of fiends that rely on other means other than mere temptation to get a mortal to sin (like mind control and such) but I'm guessing there's nothing a fiend loves more than seeing a person fall from grace by signing away his or her soul (and thus spawning the evil).

Or are you suggesting that Golarion (aka the setting of Pathfinder Roleplaying Game) should be more like the real world (and thus no evil outsiders and such to tempt mortals)?

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Berselius wrote:
Quote:
That's a difference only in slight degree. Sometimes for the purposes of story, it's best that mortals spawn their own evil.

Isn't that what fiends try to get mortals to do? A devil may tempt a mortal with a contract which, if signed, grants power but it's ultimately up to the mortal to make the choice (and possibly the sacrifice of an innocent needed to summon aforementioned devil).

Granted, there's probably ALOT of fiends that rely on other means other than mere temptation to get a mortal to sin (like mind control and such) but I'm guessing there's nothing a fiend loves more than seeing a person fall from grace by signing away his or her soul (and thus spawning the evil).

Or are you suggesting that Golarion (aka the setting of Pathfinder Roleplaying Game) should be more like the real world (and thus no evil outsiders and such to tempt mortals)?

What I'm suggesting is that not every evil (or good) action should have an outsider as it's root cause. Such a cause should be put into a story only when it enhances it.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

5 people marked this as a favorite.
Ventnor wrote:
Out of curiosity, will there ever be an Adventure Path with the Cult of the Dawnflower being the villain in it? Or at least, one of the primary villainous organizations in it? Because that would be pretty cool, I think.

I hope/want to do an AP some day that focuses on the schism in the church, and comes with a requirement that everyone in the party be a worshiper of Sarenrae.


James Jacobs wrote:
Ventnor wrote:
Out of curiosity, will there ever be an Adventure Path with the Cult of the Dawnflower being the villain in it? Or at least, one of the primary villainous organizations in it? Because that would be pretty cool, I think.
I hope/want to do an AP some day that focuses on the schism in the church, and comes with a requirement that everyone in the party be a worshiper of Sarenrae.

aren't you the creative director? bludgeon them into doing it

Contributor

James Jacobs wrote:
Ventnor wrote:
Out of curiosity, will there ever be an Adventure Path with the Cult of the Dawnflower being the villain in it? Or at least, one of the primary villainous organizations in it? Because that would be pretty cool, I think.
I hope/want to do an AP some day that focuses on the schism in the church, and comes with a requirement that everyone in the party be a worshiper of Sarenrae.

The iconic art would be a little bit difficult for that one, I imagine, considering that almost all of the iconics have already established which deities they worship and only two of them are Sarenrae.

Though Zadim would be such an obvious choice for that sort of adventure ....


Alexander Augunas wrote:
James Jacobs wrote:
Ventnor wrote:
Out of curiosity, will there ever be an Adventure Path with the Cult of the Dawnflower being the villain in it? Or at least, one of the primary villainous organizations in it? Because that would be pretty cool, I think.
I hope/want to do an AP some day that focuses on the schism in the church, and comes with a requirement that everyone in the party be a worshiper of Sarenrae.

The iconic art would be a little bit difficult for that one, I imagine, considering that almost all of the iconics have already established which deities they worship and only two of them are Sarenrae.

Though Zadim would be such an obvious choice for that sort of adventure ....

well there is the cleric, the others could just be along for the ride


LazarX wrote:
Berselius wrote:
Quote:
That's a difference only in slight degree. Sometimes for the purposes of story, it's best that mortals spawn their own evil.

Isn't that what fiends try to get mortals to do? A devil may tempt a mortal with a contract which, if signed, grants power but it's ultimately up to the mortal to make the choice (and possibly the sacrifice of an innocent needed to summon aforementioned devil).

Granted, there's probably ALOT of fiends that rely on other means other than mere temptation to get a mortal to sin (like mind control and such) but I'm guessing there's nothing a fiend loves more than seeing a person fall from grace by signing away his or her soul (and thus spawning the evil).

Or are you suggesting that Golarion (aka the setting of Pathfinder Roleplaying Game) should be more like the real world (and thus no evil outsiders and such to tempt mortals)?

What I'm suggesting is that not every evil (or good) action should have an outsider as it's root cause. Such a cause should be put into a story only when it enhances it.

However, in such a setting as Golarion, the fiends seems to always be involved at some point.

See, you forget that if the Cult of the Dawnflower were to start performing outright evil actions, then their Divine Casters would no longer be granted spells. That's a pretty sure-fire way to signal "You're doing it wrong!"

It's not like here in the non-magical world where you can have a priest leading a religion and become misguided and do horrible things. They don't suddenly lose access to abilities they had before. No bolt of lighting comes out of the sky to smite them for their transgressions (if there were, there would be a lot less religious fighting).

So in the Cult of the Dawnflower, if their Clerics start doing evil things, they will fall. Period. If they suddenly get spells back, and keep on doing evil things, it's not because Sarenrae is granting them, it's because they are getting power from elsewhere now.

The reality of the matter is that there is an entire planar race of beings who are neigh-immortal that absolutely delight in corrupting worshipers of goodly gods and tempting them down the path of evil to damn their soul into a horrible existence. The fact that the Cult of the Dawnflower may have originally started due to a mortal schism doesn't mean that Devils or Demons won't come along and whisper further things into their ear to tempt them into committing truly heinous acts.

It's entirely likely the Cult may do such things on their own, but a whispering Fiend might increase the odds or accelerate the rate at which they take the steps down that path.

It doesn't mean the Fiends are at fault. They are a factor, but it's entirely the mortals that make the decisions. Mortals, usually, become evil because they choose too. A puppet under mind control is not at fault for their actions, but someone who was tempted and takes their own steps? They are to blame.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Tels wrote:


However, in such a setting as Golarion, the fiends seems to always be involved at some point.

See, you forget that if the Cult of the Dawnflower were to start performing outright evil actions, then their Divine Casters would no longer be granted spells. That's a pretty sure-fire way to signal "You're doing it wrong!"

It's not like here in the non-magical world where you can have a priest leading a religion and become misguided and do horrible things. They don't suddenly lose access to abilities they had before. No bolt of lighting comes out of the sky to smite them for their transgressions (if there were, there would be a lot less religious fighting).

So in the Cult of the Dawnflower, if their Clerics start doing evil things, they will fall. Period. If they suddenly get spells back, and keep on doing evil things, it's not because Sarenrae is granting them, it's because they are getting power from elsewhere...

Can we just agree to disagree at this point? For myself I see nothing that can argue against the idea that the Dawnflowers' beliefs and bias are entirely mortal generated. As we have been told.. Sarenrae IS still granting the cultists' clerics their spells. Not some other diety masquerading as her, Sarenrae herself. As to why she is still doing so... others have given some good ideas why.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

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Alexander Augunas wrote:
James Jacobs wrote:
Ventnor wrote:
Out of curiosity, will there ever be an Adventure Path with the Cult of the Dawnflower being the villain in it? Or at least, one of the primary villainous organizations in it? Because that would be pretty cool, I think.
I hope/want to do an AP some day that focuses on the schism in the church, and comes with a requirement that everyone in the party be a worshiper of Sarenrae.

The iconic art would be a little bit difficult for that one, I imagine, considering that almost all of the iconics have already established which deities they worship and only two of them are Sarenrae.

Though Zadim would be such an obvious choice for that sort of adventure ....

So far, only Kyra and Zadim worship Sarenrae. But when we illustrate characters for an AP, we get to stretch those rules a bit. Alahazra's not a pirate, for example, but we used her in Skull & Shackles.

I'm not all that interested in nixing an AP plot simply because picking the iconics to appear in it seems complex, in other words.

If I were doing this AP today and had to pick its characters now?

I'd pick Kyra and Zadim and Merisiel and Ezren, I suspect. Merisiel because she's got links to Kyra, and Ezren cause I like the idea of how an atheist might work in a religion-heavy AP.


LazarX wrote:
Tels wrote:


However, in such a setting as Golarion, the fiends seems to always be involved at some point.

See, you forget that if the Cult of the Dawnflower were to start performing outright evil actions, then their Divine Casters would no longer be granted spells. That's a pretty sure-fire way to signal "You're doing it wrong!"

It's not like here in the non-magical world where you can have a priest leading a religion and become misguided and do horrible things. They don't suddenly lose access to abilities they had before. No bolt of lighting comes out of the sky to smite them for their transgressions (if there were, there would be a lot less religious fighting).

So in the Cult of the Dawnflower, if their Clerics start doing evil things, they will fall. Period. If they suddenly get spells back, and keep on doing evil things, it's not because Sarenrae is granting them, it's because they are getting power from elsewhere...

Can we just agree to disagree at this point? For myself I see nothing that can argue against the idea that the Dawnflowers' beliefs and bias are entirely mortal generated. As we have been told.. Sarenrae IS still granting the cultists' clerics their spells. Not some other diety masquerading as her, Sarenrae herself. As to why she is still doing so... others have given some good ideas why.

I agree that, currently, anything they do is of mortal only decisions.

The original post that spawned this sub-thread of discussion was talking about a further schism that turns the Cult truly evil with someone impersonating Sarenrae and asking what race would be the most likely culprits.

So, in a hypothetical future where the Cult is intentionally being lead astray, who do you think would be the most likely perpitrator? My response was the Devils.


Kvantum wrote:
Berselius wrote:
The sad reality of the Cult of the Dawnflower is that it's slowly being turned and twisted into a method for conquest and war by Qadira and the Padishah Empire of Kelesh. There might end up being a HUGE SCHISM in the church of Sarenrae because of this.
I think the real question is who or what will take advantage of the schism and impersonate Sarenrae to lead certain members of the cult astray. Demon, Devil, Daemon... Anybody want to start a pool on the likely suspect?

(boldface is mine, for emphasis on what I'm referring to)

I'd put my money on Shamira.

Especially if she makes the jump from 'Nascent' to full-blown Demon Lord (OR maybe the AP could be about her gathering followers so that she can make the jump...)
Do I get a free subscription to the AP if I guess right? ;)

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Tels wrote:

I agree that, currently, anything they do is of mortal only decisions.

The original post that spawned this sub-thread of discussion was talking about a further schism that turns the Cult truly evil with someone impersonating Sarenrae and asking what race would be the most likely culprits..

At that point, it's not a schism, it's a bunch of people leaving for an entirely new religion. The relationship between a deity's views and those of her mortal followers is at best, a rather complex one. The fact that it may cause mortal deaths is not entirely a major issue, because from their viewpoint, we all die at one time or another, the question is more of a matter of who's getting the souls.

Silver Crusade

Given that Sarenrae moved Asmodeus to assist in the defeat of Rovagug and The First got the key to his prison in the process, I don't think he would do something like that, nor would he allow any of the other archdevils to make that kind of move on her. His involvement would be far too obvious, as the two are old enemies.

Now Szuriel, on the other hand, strikes me as just the sort to take advantage of the situation. A schism in the church of Sarenrae, especially if it becomes an all out bloody one (and given the passions of those that would be involved, its guaranteed that it would be) would benefit the Angel of Desolation. And given that we know when Szuriel was mortal, she was excommunicated from a church, but we have no clue which one, her motivation for stoking the flames of war could serve two purposes: 1)the devastation of mortal life it would engender, and 2)revenge for being cast out of Sarenrae's church. That last bit is only mere speculation on my part, but I could see it happening.

Grand Lodge

All I want to know is if Whiz Kids have plans for releasing this in an Iconic set in 2015. I want one.


Wow. Just - so great all around - the layers of conflicting loyalties, the moral conflict, the "hey, let's look at this from a different angle" guidance by Kyra, the redemption of that Butcher guy, the cliffhanger ending... the artwork, the class! - everything.

I'm so glad Paizo realized that people want to play characters that are essentially "Assassin's Creed protagonists", bur are not the EVUL prestige-class Assassin, more stabby-flavored than the generic Rogue, and that the oriental-flavored Ninja doesn't quite fit in every setting. Thank you!

The history-nerd in me was very happy that this had plenty of shades of "Hashanshin", the real-life religious order of Islamic assassins based out of the fortress of Alamut and led by Hasan ibn-Sabbah, upon which the "Assassin's Creed" games were loosely based.

I also love it when you guys intertwine iconic characters' background - the whole "shared universe" aspect makes them seem like part of a larger saga, rather than just isolated loners (why yes, I am a Marvel fan).

On that note - if anyone can make a chart or whatever showing the official links between the various iconics (Valeros and Seoni, Kyra and Merisiel, etc), that'd be wonderful.


I feel like a certain chapter opener in Horror Adventures might give some more material for those eager to speculate on Zadim's past, as well as his current state of mind.

A tiny bit more.


Djeez.....this is one hell of a backstory. I see this for the first time and I love it. The cliffhanger provides so many possibilities to play him. I wanted to play a slayer for the first time and I just copied this. Better stolen in a good way than made one up in a bad way

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