Ultimate Campaign: The Total Game Changer

It's fascinating how this book includes two elements that are a litmus test to indicate two extremes of gaming spectrum:

1. Story Feats is something that smokes out TGD/BG people who cringe at the very thought of a mechanic that requires any degree of "cooperation" with those abusive jerks (sometimes called "Game Masters" by those who fail to see them for what they truly are) who run the game.

2. Retraining which gets "get your video gamist MMO stuff out of my Gygaxian game" worked up because it's yet another element of Playstation kids taking over the hobby and turning the game into World of Warcraft.

I like everything in this except..... retraining feats....

I don't know.... it just feels so MMO-ish.

So what?

You know... I can say I don't like mexican food, because it's too spicey. But saying I don't like it because it's too mexican-ish isn't really a reason.

So yes, retraining is used in videogames (which goes beyond MMO, by the way. A ton of single player videogames use it too). So what? sure, you might not like it because... it doesn't feel simulationist for you. Or maybe because it does allow for more min-maxed builds. Or because of the oppossite (it also allow for more organic "let's try this" builds). But "because it's used in some other entertaiment" isn't a reason per se

Sean K Reynolds wrote:

In a world where people can make pacts with demons or dodge 20-foot-radius fireballs, I don't think it's weird for a person to be able to retrain a now-obsolete feat, archetype, or even a class level.

I love hearing a Dev saying this, especially when it comes from you :-)

Thank you!

Not being able to retrain feats is probably one of the main reasons I don’t like playing some of classes such as ranger and fighter (even though fighters can retrain some feats). Cleave is great at some levels but one of those feats that you might want to swap. And what if you pick a feat chain and the regret it?

This deserves an explanation. Mind that's a very personal explanation, so take it with a grain of salt and all the rest.

I come from an early era of RPGs, both PnP and CRPGs. Feats, skill points, retraining was something done only with command line cheats or third party "trainer" softwares (for videogames) or not at all (for tabletop RPGs).
Perhaps this has stuck as an unfair move. Don't know.

Moreover, I developed a simultaneous interest in tabletop wargames. The ones with a hex map full of symbols and two or three colors (not the fancy hand painted maps or high-definition renders), and small cardboard counters - games that actively tried to fry your brain, like Breakout Normandy.
In those games, an often explitly stated rule was that any counter moved during your turn coudn't be taken back later if you changed your mind - even if it was still your turn and you hadn't finished making movements/choices. That simulated the tactical mistakes made by HQ during a battle.

Choosing a feat (or devoting a bunch of skill points for Use Rope) is choosing a strategy. You may make mistakes. You survive and live with your mistakes. These are things that define your character as much (or sometimes, more) as your optimal choices.
You have fun playing a character that's succefull despite not having the optimal feat at the optimal level range.

You don't retrain your past. Not at my table.

sciencerob wrote:

I like everything in this except..... retraining feats....

I don't know.... it just feels so MMO-ish.

So what?

I mean... I'd understand you don't like retraining feats, for whatever reasons. But "it feels mmo-ish" isn't a reason.

You know... I can say I don't like mexican food, because it's too spicey. But saying I don't like it because it's too mexican-ish isn't really a reason.

So yes, retraining is used in videogames (which goes beyond MMO, by the way. A ton of single player videogames use it too). So what? sure, you might not like it because... it doesn't feel simulationist for you. Or maybe because it does allow for more min-maxed builds. Or because of the oppossite (it also allow for more organic "let's try this" builds). But "because it's used in some other entertaiment" isn't a reason per se

I said it feels MMO-ish because it is in fact derived from MMO gamestyle. Why should you suddenly be able to retrain a feat? You suddenly gain expertise with a bastard sword instead of a long sword that you have been using for 15 levels! [Switching weapon focus]

This has no place in a tabletop and shreds verisimilitude. So yes, feeling MMO is in fact a valid criticism. But if you want to be pleased the real reason I don't like it is a lack of verismilitude. It won't feel real, merely contrived.

Also I hate min-maxers. I'm not using that word lightly. They usually ruin games I run because most people I run with are not min-maxers. Just giving them more tools in their arsenal to ruin games. I think I would take a rules-lawyer over a min-maxer.

I said it feels MMO-ish because it is in fact derived from MMO gamestyle. Why should you suddenly be able to retrain a feat? You suddenly gain expertise with a bastard sword instead of a long sword that you have been using for 15 levels! [Switching weapon focus]

This has no place in a tabletop and shreds verisimilitude. So yes, feeling MMO is in fact a valid criticism. But if you want to be pleased the real reason I don't like it is a lack of verismilitude. It won't feel real, merely contrived.

Also I hate min-maxers. I'm not using that word lightly. They usually ruin games I run because most people I run with are not min-maxers. Just giving them more tools in their arsenal to ruin games. I think I would take a rules-lawyer over a min-maxer.

Wait...a high level fighter spending his off-time training with a bastard sword until he become good in it is somehow breaking versimilitude? I am pretty sure someone can do that in real life.

I mean if you are worrying about min-maxers...than don't allow retraining or allow it only under specific circumstances. Not everyone has a massive understanding of character design and is a min-maxer. Having option available to fix poor character design choices is great for new players, players without extensive knowledge, or just players that find a given tactic isn't working out well in their party. I would rather have players that actually enjoy the game, than those not having fun because of some poor early selection in feats.

We don't know the details of how we will be able to retrain things, so seems a bit soon for critics. I can understand the dislike to this, but surely the book will have limitations and GM fiat on that.

Wait you mean that at the moment we can't allow our players to retrain feats?!

Also, am I one of the few not thrilled by rules for young characters?

Wait you mean that at the moment we can't allow our players to retrain feats?!

Sure you can.

It's just that right now there are no official rules that I'm aware of regarding that matter (but I think there a good many 3PP products on the matter).

I've just been using the 3.5 rules from PHB2. But I definitely approve of Paizo coming out with their own take on the issue for me to replace or integrate into my system =)

Definitely looking forward to this one.

And Alain says "Hmph" again.

Considering Book of the River Nations sold out and doesnt appear to be reprinted, this book should sell extremely well just for the Kingdom building rules alone.

Add in the zillion other new and amazing things and this appears to be the most essential book since the Core. Unlike the UM, UC, and the GMs Guide, this is a book I will carry with me to all my games. I can hardly wait!

Huzzah for another denizen of the Kingmaker board! By this book we know that Paizo truly loves us. ^_^

I said it feels MMO-ish because it is in fact derived from MMO gamestyle.

Once again, it does not. Lot of single player CRPG can retrain, so it's not MMO.

Why should you suddenly be able to retrain a feat? You suddenly gain expertise with a bastard sword instead of a long sword that you have been using for 15 levels! [Switching weapon focus]

This has no place in a tabletop and shreds verisimilitude.

Let's see. You are lvl 4, and you have +4 BAB. You have +5 with your bow, which you have a lot of training into it (focus), but +4 with your Crossbow. You decide, instead, to focus and train into the crossbow. So the next time you level up, you trade your feat. Now you still have +5 with your bow, as you did. But now, you have +6 with your crossbow, because you are training hard with it. At the next level , you stop training with your crossbow, so it is kept at +6, so does your bow, but your new focus and training intensively with slings make it +7. Where does it break simmilitude?

Same goes with other feats. For example, skill focus. I can see how an athlete which practice long jump has skill focus in jumping. But if he suddenly stop training into jumpling, and start to train for the 100m dash... isn`t verosimil that he lose jumping ability and gain Run instead?
This happens everytime in sports. Michael Jordan had a lot of focus in jumping and attacking the rim. Then he evolved, and shifted his focus to three point shootings and fadeaways. Also happen with mental skills. I'm no longer so good playing chess as I was when I trained for it.

so I don't see how it shreds verosimilitud.

Also I hate min-maxers. I'm not using that word lightly. They usually ruin games I run because most people I run with are not min-maxers. Just giving them more tools in their arsenal to ruin games. I think I would take a rules-lawyer over a min-maxer.

Optimizers will get the better deal, with or without this "tool in their arsenal". If it is not available, they'll stick with the best long term plan. However, those who don't optimize and build characters "on the fly" instead of planning them, get a valuable tool.

I see retraining rules as less of a min/maxing thing and more of a way to get your character to fit the way you imagine him and/or to make up for choices that turn out to be wasted later on.

Example of the former: "I took Perform (act) early on because I thought it would fit my character, but it turns out that he has never used it and now plays like a guy who would be uncomfortable on stage. Can I switch it out for something he does use, like Diplomacy?"

Example of the latter: "I took a martial weapon proficiency for my wizard because I wanted him to have a sword. Eight levels later I decide that I want to pursue becoming an eldritch knight. Since taking a level of fighter gives me martial weapon proficiencies, can I use the feat I spent on Martial Weapon Profiency (longsword) for something else now?"

Another advantage to a retraining system is that novice players aren't punished for making bad choices overall. "I took the Acrobatic feat for my paladin because I thought it sounded cool, but it is an utter waste of a feat for me. Can I change that out for something that is remotely useful?"

Another advantage to a retraining system is that novice players aren't punished for making bad choices overall. "I took the Acrobatic feat for my paladin because I thought it sounded cool, but it is an utter waste of a feat for me. Can I change that out for something that is remotely useful?"

This

Will this book have material that's usable for Pathfinder Society play?

Will this book have material that's usable for Pathfinder Society play?

I don't speak for Mike, but I'm sure they'll find ways to implement parts of this book in PFS. Off the top of my head: traits, story feats, retraining, some parts of downtime.

LazarX wrote:

Will this book have material that's usable for Pathfinder Society play?

I don't speak for Mike, but I'm sure they'll find ways to implement parts of this book in PFS. Off the top of my head: traits, story feats, retraining, some parts of downtime.

Given that the overall trend has been to put the kibosh on rebuilds, I don't see where retraining is going to fit in. Downtime is going to be problematical as those four hour convention slots are tight for running scenarios as they are.

Vanity expansion I could see coming out of this.

We don't know the details of how we will be able to retrain things, so seems a bit soon for critics. I can understand the dislike to this, but surely the book will have limitations and GM fiat on that.

Thank you Alaryth, this is an exceptionally clear-headed comment.

Yawn.
I do most of this already in my 3.5 campaigns (except retraining which is a huge no-no in my games).
Are you guys running out of ideas?
Pass.

I see retraining rules as less of a min/maxing thing and more of a way to get your character to fit the way you imagine him and/or to make up for choices that turn out to be wasted later on... (followed by a lot of EXACTLY the right things)

If you build your character perfectly, maybe you won't ever need to retrain and, as such, don't have much use for these rules (unless, of course, we put out something in the future that suits your character perfectly--now you have an option to get that).

If you take a more organic route to building your character, this system gives you the option to expend time between adventures to refine your character as the experience of your campaign changes.

Ultimately, it's an optional system (and one with plenty of GM handbrakes even if it is employed), but one created to help players better enjoy their characters, and thus the games they're playing in.

Yawn.

I do most of this already in my 3.5 campaigns (except retraining which is a huge no-no in my games).
Are you guys running out of ideas?
Pass.

HA! *HUG!* New BFF!

To what extent will Leadership be discussed? Will their be suggestions on how to run followers, perhaps rules for what type of classes they can have or some such? Maybe a discussion on living expenses for them and hwo they react to getting different levels of wages? Will their be suggestions on how Cohorts should be handled when it comes to class levels, prestige classes, spells known, crafting feats and the like?

Given that the overall trend has been to put the kibosh on rebuilds, I don't see where retraining is going to fit in.

Well, off the top of my head, they could award a retraining option to a player as a boon.

To what extent will Leadership be discussed? Will their be suggestions on how to run followers, perhaps rules for what type of classes they can have or some such? Maybe a discussion on living expenses for them and hwo they react to getting different levels of wages? Will their be suggestions on how Cohorts should be handled when it comes to class levels, prestige classes, spells known, crafting feats and the like?

Off the top of my head (obviously I don't have the book at home):

Yawn.

I do most of this already in my 3.5 campaigns (except retraining which is a huge no-no in my games).
Are you guys running out of ideas?
Pass.

Dude...

"The most important rule: Don't be a jerk. We want our messageboards to be a fun and friendly place."

It's right there under the "submit post" button.

Anything like the minion rules from Way of the wicked?

WANT!

Yawn.

I do most of this already in my 3.5 campaigns (except retraining which is a huge no-no in my games).
Are you guys running out of ideas?
Pass.

Wow. Well, that's great for you. Good thing you're experienced enough as a GM that you can save some money and not purchase a product that has 256 pages of information you already know and have implemented on your own.

I'm also pretty experienced and have implemented similar systems over the years myself in 2nd edition games, 3.5 edition, World of Darkness, and Shadowrun. I even took ideas out of similar books published for those systems. But, clearly, it's obvious to me now that since TSR, WotC, White Wolf, and FASA have all produced similar material over the years for entirely different game systems that Paizo should obviously not bother with such a product for its own game system. Why didn't I see that before.

As for all those new players fresh to the game (either RPGs in general or Pathfinder), well they should obviously be out rooting through bargain bins of used RPGs at their local hobby store for 10 or 20 year old books that can help give them ideas. Failing that, they'll just have to come up with all these systems on their own. It's so easy a toddler could do it. In fact, they may as well homebrew an entire system while they're at it.

As for Paizo running out of ideas, I'm not sure what's up with that. Game companies have been making books like this for decades and since you and I have been gaming for so long, and we're the only the demographic that buys Paizo stuff, I don't know who they think is going to buy this book. We can homebrew all these systems ourselves and build our own campaigns thank you very much. And for that matter, why is Paizo still publishing adventure modules. I know how to build my own story. Who buys these things. Companies have been making adventure modules since the 70's. How unoriginal. Clearly, Paizo is running out of ideas for new types of products. Yawn.

Seriously, Bill?

There's also a discussion related to that in the downtime system for creating your own organization (cult, cabal, mercenary company, thieves' guild, etc.).

This right here has me sold on it.

I kinda wanted to run an Assassins/Thieves Guild campaign some time in the near future.

We don't know the details of how we will be able to retrain things, so seems a bit soon for critics. I can understand the dislike to this, but surely the book will have limitations and GM fiat on that.

This exactly.

I have been several times amazed at the skill with which Paizo has taken difficult points of the game and turned them into fun, simple and coherent rules.

I am pretty sure that they will do the same here. I would not be surprised that those who dismiss Retrain options now will thank Paizo for their wonderful job on it when the book comes out.

I said it feels MMO-ish because it is in fact derived from MMO gamestyle. Why should you suddenly be able to retrain a feat? You suddenly gain expertise with a bastard sword instead of a long sword that you have been using for 15 levels! [Switching weapon focus]

This has no place in a tabletop and shreds verisimilitude. So yes, feeling MMO is in fact a valid criticism. But if you want to be pleased the real reason I don't like it is a lack of verismilitude. It won't feel real, merely contrived.

Riigghhht. Because getting a level in Wizard after 10 levels in Barbarian and suddenly being able to prepare and cast spells feels so much more real than changing your favourite weapon.

Still, people miss the choicest bit here.

an alignment track for tracking alignment shifts

WOOOOWWOW !!!

Also

Downtime systems, story feats and -- perhaps the best and most obvious thing to emerge in a D&D RPG since 1974: an Honor system which rewards a player for sticking to his PC's personal code.

I hope we will have a definite answer on whether or not a Chaotic or Neutral person can have a personal code (and stick to it) or if it is a Lawful-only thing.

I am also all for the Young rules. It opens up a lot of new venues for imagination in this game of ours.

Also I will finally be able to correctly stat the Young Zombie child of my Undead Lord.

And this book will get out for my birthday !!!

So much wonders, it hurts !!!

Still, people miss the choicest bit here.

Sean K Reynolds wrote:

an alignment track for tracking alignment shifts

I already have something like this, and most other things in this book, in my houserules. I can't wait to see how Paizo Handles it.

I can see a Chaotic & Neutral Person having a personal code.

Now a Question for the DEVs:

Is the Honour System a Cosmic Karma-esque system or a Public Perception-esque system? Does that make sense?

Yawn.

I do most of this already in my 3.5 campaigns (except retraining which is a huge no-no in my games).
Are you guys running out of ideas?
Pass.

If this is true, you missed your calling. Most of these have never been full adressed in a formal manner anywhere that I know of...at least successfully. Sounds like you missed a windfall opportunity to publish a great book or two.

Riigghhht. Because getting a level in Wizard after 10 levels in Barbarian and suddenly being able to prepare and cast spells feels so much more real than changing your favourite weapon.

Even worse: playing 10 levels of barbarian, and suddenly taking a level in draconic sorcerer, and discovering that you have always had draconic blood in your family. How handy, now you can get that shiny Dragon Disciple Prestige class that gives you STR bonus.

That? That is totally Kosher. But your barbarian stopping to train daily with his battleaxe, and starting to focus every day in his swordplay, because he got a new shiny vorpal sword needed to damage the Boss of the AP? No way!. That's MMO, dude!

Bill Kirsch wrote:

Yawn.

I do most of this already in my 3.5 campaigns (except retraining which is a huge no-no in my games).
Are you guys running out of ideas?
Pass.

If this is true, you missed your calling. Most of these have never been full adressed in a formal manner anywhere that I know of...at least successfully. Sounds like you missed a windfall opportunity to publish a great book or two.

You beat me at it.

2 - On Your Honor: Possible substitute for alignment system? If so, that's great!

Wait you mean that at the moment we can't allow our players to retrain feats?!

Also, am I one of the few not thrilled by rules for young characters?

I'm utterly ambivalent about being able to play children. I guess I just don't understand the appeal at all of sending a kid on a dangerous quest risking decapitation, disembowelment, and mind warping magic*. Thankfully, it probably won't take up a large section of the book, so it's no huge loss, unless children actually end up being statistically better than adults for some classes. I really think that playing an underage character should have far more mechanical disadvantages than bonuses.

*I'm not accusing Paizo of encouraging child abuse or anything, don't worry. It's just personally why I don't want to play a kid - my games tend to be a bit dark.

Drejk wrote:

Wait you mean that at the moment we can't allow our players to retrain feats?!

Also, am I one of the few not thrilled by rules for young characters?

I'm utterly ambivalent about being able to play children. I guess I just don't understand the appeal at all of sending a kid on a dangerous quest risking decapitation, disembowelment, and mind warping magic*. Thankfully, it probably won't take up a large section of the book, so it's no huge loss, unless children actually end up being statistically better than adults for some classes. I really think that playing an underage character should have far more mechanical disadvantages than bonuses.

*I'm not accusing Paizo of encouraging child abuse or anything, don't worry. It's just personally why I don't want to play a kid - my games tend to be a bit dark.

I'm pretty sure my 9 years old son will find very nice to play a character of his age in this fantastic world of heroes, light, good elves, and Good defeating Evil he plays on.

So maybe this option is not that good for your dark gritty games, but it's for sure a great addition to the game.

The black raven wrote:

Riigghhht. Because getting a level in Wizard after 10 levels in Barbarian and suddenly being able to prepare and cast spells feels so much more real than changing your favourite weapon.

Even worse: playing 10 levels of barbarian, and suddenly taking a level in draconic sorcerer, and discovering that you have always had draconic blood in your family. How handy, now you can get that shiny Dragon Disciple Prestige class that gives you STR bonus.

That? That is totally Kosher. But your barbarian stopping to train daily with his battleaxe, and starting to focus every day in his swordplay, because he got a new shiny vorpal sword needed to damage the Boss of the AP? No way!. That's MMO, dude!

The problem I see with retraining, is that your Barbarian spend 10 level training, using, mastering the battle axe, and since they just got a vorpal longsword, zap, he now have forgotten everything he knew about battle axe and is now an expert using longsword. If he just would have spend a new feat for weapon focus:longsword it wouldn't have been too far fetch, but as far retraining from scratch and having all the bonuses as he always have that feat in the first place it's a no-no for me.

I hope Paizo have come with good roleplaying explanation idea for retraining.

Drejk wrote:

Wait you mean that at the moment we can't allow our players to retrain feats?!

Also, am I one of the few not thrilled by rules for young characters?

I'm utterly ambivalent about being able to play children. I guess I just don't understand the appeal at all of sending a kid on a dangerous quest risking decapitation, disembowelment, and mind warping magic*.

At least speaking for myself, this character here is the only Young character I've ever considered playing. At least in her case, there's a justification: she was born and raised in a magically-sealed prison for powerful mages and others of the kingdom's most dangerous criminals, escaping from which is the purpose of the campaign. Hardly a cotton-candy setting or story.

I'm sure there's plenty of other reasons that such characters might be considered an option, even if something just as simple as "something different that I've never tried before".

Drejk wrote:

Wait you mean that at the moment we can't allow our players to retrain feats?!

Also, am I one of the few not thrilled by rules for young characters?

I'm utterly ambivalent about being able to play children. I guess I just don't understand the appeal at all of sending a kid on a dangerous quest risking decapitation, disembowelment, and mind warping magic*. Thankfully, it probably won't take up a large section of the book, so it's no huge loss, unless children actually end up being statistically better than adults for some classes. I really think that playing an underage character should have far more mechanical disadvantages than bonuses.

*I'm not accusing Paizo of encouraging child abuse or anything, don't worry. It's just personally why I don't want to play a kid - my games tend to be a bit dark.

I feel the same for the most part. A friend of mine always used to comment on Harry Potter, wondering why in the world a parent would let their kids go to a school where the chance of death is an every year possibility. Don't get me wrong, I believe that these rules will have benefit to the game, but I probably won't use them all that much. Options are a good thing after all, even if you don't use them.

The problem I see with retraining, is that your Barbarian spend 10 level training, using, mastering the battle axe, and since they just got a vorpal longsword, zap, he now have forgotten everything he knew about battle axe and is now an expert using longsword. If he just would have spend a new feat for weapon focus:longsword it wouldn't have been too far fetch, but as far retraining from scratch and having all the bonuses as he always have that feat in the first place it's a no-no for me.

I hope Paizo have come with good roleplaying explanation idea for retraining.

who said it is just a magical wand of retrain?

So if that fighter had weapon focus Axe, and Improved Critical Axes, and weapon specialist (axe), then he can trade one every time he level for a sword equivalent.

I go back to the sports example: if an athlete stops training for long jump, and starts focusing into 100dash, he is going to shift his focus. He'll lose "skill focus, jump" and get "run".

Same goes to those runners that start to push the distances, and go from 400m dash to 800, 1500, and then 3000 or 5000m. They trade "run" for "endurance", or "improved initiative" (for fast starts) for "fleet"

I'm quite worse now at playing Tetris than I was when I was 15, and I'm sure I've lost my Skill Focus in Super Mario 64 too. Practice makes excellence, and if you stop to practice, you stop being excellent.

Mechalibur wrote:

Drejk wrote:

Wait you mean that at the moment we can't allow our players to retrain feats?!

Also, am I one of the few not thrilled by rules for young characters?

I'm utterly ambivalent about being able to play children. I guess I just don't understand the appeal at all of sending a kid on a dangerous quest risking decapitation, disembowelment, and mind warping magic*. Thankfully, it probably won't take up a large section of the book, so it's no huge loss, unless children actually end up being statistically better than adults for some classes. I really think that playing an underage character should have far more mechanical disadvantages than bonuses.

*I'm not accusing Paizo of encouraging child abuse or anything, don't worry. It's just personally why I don't want to play a kid - my games tend to be a bit dark.

I feel the same for the most part. A friend of mine always used to comment on Harry Potter, wondering why in the world a parent would let their kids go to a school where the chance of death is an every year possibility. Don't get me wrong, I believe that these rules will have benefit to the game, but I probably won't use them all that much. Options are a good thing after all, even if you don't use them.

I do think there is a place for children adventurers, perhaps mainly as a transition for younger players from the beginner box. I know every game I run, we do a prequel with the PCs as children to lay the feel and groundwork of the campaign. It sure would be nice to have a set of rules to use for these times so the players could start at 1st instead of zero level. What if you wanted a kid tagging along with the party as sort of "an extra NPC" that eventually was adopted? Now you have guidelines for it.

Essential to the game system? No. Useful in some circumstances? I think yes absolutely.

Truthfully, the concept of a safe childhood is a fairly recent one in our world. Back in medieval times, it wasn't unusual for a child to be an apprentice, a squire, learning archery, or already having to help support his/her parents in their job. You can see this in fantasy too, how heroes like Link, Peter Pan, Aang, and the Narnia crew all had to take up more adult responsibilities in a dangerous world. Now granted, their settings are probably a far cry to a gritty and dark campaign and in those, some people probably aren't comfortable with throwing kids in that kind of setting. To us, having Harry Potter sent to a wizard school with all that danger sounds like negligence, but if you're in that world of dangerous supernatural creatures and powers, you'd probably want them with the powerful faculty learning to at least defend themselves. I'm about the opposite. I don't mind squires and sickly chimney sweeps or war orphans and pick pockets in my "Lankhmar-esque" setting. Granted, they do play more into the backdrop and I've never thrown any as a villain... yet.

I'm utterly ambivalent about being able to play children. I guess I just don't understand the appeal at all of sending a kid on a dangerous quest risking decapitation, disembowelment, and mind warping magic*.

Which we address. :)

I guess I just don't understand the appeal at all of sending a kid on a dangerous quest risking decapitation, disembowelment, and mind warping magic.

Don't knock it 'till you've tried it*! :D

(* I don't mean the rules system)

@Wes: nice...

I personally will implement the Retraining. Though it will probably not be used in a Fast Paced Campaign. My current system is you can retrain a feat based on the circumstances it takes a period of In-Game time.

Going from Weapon Focus(Heavy Blades) to Weapon Focus(Light Blades) maybe a few Weeks. Going to Weapon Focus(Spears) around a Month. Going to Endurance is going to be around a 3 Months. And everything else you do will be slowed down as well.

So my system will probably be easily modified to go with Paizo's.

And I have a Child Character (Using the Young Template) who is the Squire to the Parties Cavalier and in the next In-Game year they will become an Adult and lose the Young Template. I have a God-Daughter who wants to learn the game but can't wrap their head around things like an Adult so allowing her a Child Character whom can act like her reasonably in the world would be wonderful. This is one reason why I would much like to see a Child PC Option.

...

I go back to the sports example: if an athlete stops training for long jump, and starts focusing into 100dash, he is going to shift his focus. He'll lose "skill focus, jump" and get "run".

Same goes to those runners that start to push the distances, and go from 400m dash to 800, 1500, and then 3000 or 5000m. They trade "run" for "endurance", or "improved initiative" (for fast starts) for "fleet"

I'm quite worse now at playing Tetris than I was when I was 15, and I'm sure I've lost my Skill Focus in Super Mario 64 too. Practice makes excellence, and if you stop to practice, you stop being excellent.

It might be different perception, but to me your sport example, would be an athlete that change from jump to 100m dash, is not retraining, but simply getting a new feat skill focus:run on top of his skill focus:jump. While not focusing anymore on the jump discipline, he still is way better than common people at jump. That's how I sea gaining experience, not be replacing something you've learn before with new stuff you need now.

Like I said, I'm looking foward to Paizo implementation and I believe that they came up with a good roleplaying way to explain retraining.

Young Heroes from popular fiction:

Harry Potter, Aang (the last airbender), young Pug, Thomas, Jimmy the Hand (Magician by Raymond E. Feist), Spider-Man ("My name is Peter Parker and I was Spider-Man since I was fifteen years old"), X-Men (high schoolers), Link (the Legend of Zelda), the characters in The Chronicles of Narnia.

Young Adult fantasy fiction is full of awesome child/teen characters who get into all sorts of danger. Yeah they make mistakes, but that's the fun of those characters, getting in over your head but still coming out on top. Or making terrible mistakes and then trying to make up for them.

Young Heroes from popular fiction:

Harry Potter, Aang (the last airbender), young Pug, Thomas, Jimmy the Hand (Magician by Raymond E. Feist), Spider-Man ("My name is Peter Parker and I was Spider-Man since I was fifteen years old"), X-Men (high schoolers), Link (the Legend of Zelda), the characters in The Chronicles of Narnia.

Young Adult fantasy fiction is full of awesome child/teen characters who get into all sorts of danger. Yeah they make mistakes, but that's the fun of those characters, getting in over your head but still coming out on top. Or making terrible mistakes and then trying to make up for them.

To be fair, even when I was a kid, I couldn't believe the X-Men were teenagers :p Too buff and tall!

If I recall correctly, in Ocarina of time, Link was only ten when he set out to save Hyrule.

Sounds more useful than the GameMastery Guide, which I thought was a bit of a dud.

DM_aka_Dudemeister wrote:

Young Heroes from popular fiction:

Harry Potter, Aang (the last airbender), young Pug, Thomas, Jimmy the Hand (Magician by Raymond E. Feist), Spider-Man ("My name is Peter Parker and I was Spider-Man since I was fifteen years old"), X-Men (high schoolers), Link (the Legend of Zelda), the characters in The Chronicles of Narnia.

Young Adult fantasy fiction is full of awesome child/teen characters who get into all sorts of danger. Yeah they make mistakes, but that's the fun of those characters, getting in over your head but still coming out on top. Or making terrible mistakes and then trying to make up for them.

To be fair, even when I was a kid, I couldn't believe the X-Men were teenagers :p Too buff and tall!

If I recall correctly, in Ocarina of time, Link was only ten when he set out to save Hyrule.

And then there's the Goonies!