Sorry for the slipups, we had a different blog planned for yesterday, but realized the relevant product hasn't been officially announced yet, so I hammered this out in 15 minutes. Chris is fixing the Price issue as we speak and I'm sending her a clarified chunk of text for the Cost issue.
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BTW that minimum DCs is based on the minimum ability score bonus a caster would have to cast a spell of that level.
So for a 3rd level spell like fireball, spell level is 3, minimum wizard Int score (or sorcerer Cha score) is 13, which is a +1 ability score bonus, so 10 + 3 + 1 = 14. The math works out the same if you use the formula (10 + 1.5 x 3 = 10 + 4.5 --> 10 + 4 = 14), as "half the spell level rounded down" is the ability score bonus of the required ability score.
RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16
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Sorry for the slipups, we had a different blog planned for yesterday, but realized the relevant product hasn't been officially announced yet
I don't think anyone would have complained, there's no reason a blog post can't be the first announcement of a product. (psst - it's only been about half an hour that this replacement blog has been up - not a full day. It's almost like you're putting in a lot of extra time on some project above and beyond your normal day job and are getting the days confused.)
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 32
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On the minimum DC for a magic item, are you allowed to alter that for a higher cost item?
Say you create a simple SIAC item using a 5th level spell and a 2nd level spell. The DC for the 5th level spell would be appropriate, but the DC for the 2nd level spell might be a practical auto-save for the enemies it's supposed to affect.
Can the designer adjust the DC of the 2nd level spell so it isn't underpowered for the level the item would be used for? If that was adjusted how would that affect pricing?
I don't think anyone would have complained, there's no reason a blog post can't be the first announcement of a product. (psst - it's only been about half an hour that this replacement blog has been up - not a full day. It's almost like you're putting in a lot of extra time on some project above and beyond your normal day job and are getting the days confused.)
We write and edit the blogs the day before they go live, so I mean "we had a different blog planned for writing yesterday and posting today." :)
As for nobody complaining, we don't like talking about a product if we can't link to its official product page. As there wasn't time to put that page together to go live with the blog, we changed blog topics. :)
BTW that minimum DCs is based on the minimum ability score bonus a caster would have to cast a spell of that level.
So for a 3rd level spell like fireball, spell level is 3, minimum wizard Int score (or sorcerer Cha score) is 13, which is a +1 ability score bonus, so 10 + 3 + 1 = 14. The math works out the same if you use the formula (10 + 1.5 x 3 = 10 + 4.5 --> 10 + 4 = 14), as "half the spell level rounded down" is the ability score bonus of the required ability score.
And you assume it's a cleric / druid / wizard casting it?
On the minimum DC for a magic item, are you allowed to alter that for a higher cost item?
Say you create a simple SIAC item using a 5th level spell and a 2nd level spell. The DC for the 5th level spell would be appropriate, but the DC for the 2nd level spell might be a practical auto-save for the enemies it's supposed to affect.
Can the designer adjust the DC of the 2nd level spell so it isn't underpowered for the level the item would be used for? If that was adjusted how would that affect pricing?
I was under the impression the minimum caster level was the rule of thumb for items whose origin was unknown, and when the creator and/or purpose was known for an item these factors would dictate the items DC instead.
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so useful... too late...
Yes thank you. I'm glad someone else said this.
I think this would have been great material to have in the Game Mastery Guide when it was published. To help explain to GMs/Players the walk thru of a good magical item creation.I like what is in the Core book, but having the template "block" defined helps me. But bookmarked for a referance to show my players.
we had a different blog planned for yesterday, but realized the relevant product hasn't been officially announced yet
So what product are you talking about...... 8-)
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RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16
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And you assume it's a cleric / druid / wizard casting it?BTW that minimum DCs is based on the minimum ability score bonus a caster would have to cast a spell of that level.
So for a 3rd level spell like fireball, spell level is 3, minimum wizard Int score (or sorcerer Cha score) is 13, which is a +1 ability score bonus, so 10 + 3 + 1 = 14. The math works out the same if you use the formula (10 + 1.5 x 3 = 10 + 4.5 --> 10 + 4 = 14), as "half the spell level rounded down" is the ability score bonus of the required ability score.
Unless it's a spell that is exclusively on another caster list, in which case use that spell level.
Could someone please make a note in the Paizo tech guys' calenders to sticky a link to this blog when they make the RPG Superstar 2013 sub-forum?
And you assume it's a cleric / druid / wizard casting it?
Assume whatever is appropriate for the item. If it's a druid item, use the druid spell level to determine the DC. Usually the 1 spell level difference (rarely 2) isn't going to have a significant effect on the DC.
On the minimum DC for a magic item, are you allowed to alter that for a higher cost item?
Say you create a simple SIAC item using a 5th level spell and a 2nd level spell. The DC for the 5th level spell would be appropriate, but the DC for the 2nd level spell might be a practical auto-save for the enemies it's supposed to affect.
Can the designer adjust the DC of the 2nd level spell so it isn't underpowered for the level the item would be used for? If that was adjusted how would that affect pricing?
1) That should be your clue that perhaps putting a 5th-level spell and a 2nd-level spell in a SIAC item isn't a good idea. (BTW on many items submitted for the contest, Neil pointed out something like "at 50,000 gp, the DC 11 of this ability is irrelevant for anything the PCs would face...")
2) If you do alter the DC, you should include Heighten Spell in the construction info, and price the lower-level spell as if it were heightened. No free lunch.
3) Note that staves get around this by letting the bearer use his or her own ability score bonuses and such, so you're not likely to have one DC 17 effect and one DC 11 effect.
I think this would have been great material to have in the Game Mastery Guide when it was published. To help explain to GMs/Players the walk thru of a good magical item creation.
Heh, this only scratches the surface of creating magic items. Heck, it's really just the basic outline of how to stat up magic items, let alone design and price them. And it's only this short because we don't like to dump a lot of extra words on the editors for the blog. It could easily be 3x this long with more details...
Unless it's a spell that is exclusively on another caster list, in which case use that spell level.And you assume it's a cleric / druid / wizard casting it?BTW that minimum DCs is based on the minimum ability score bonus a caster would have to cast a spell of that level.
So for a 3rd level spell like fireball, spell level is 3, minimum wizard Int score (or sorcerer Cha score) is 13, which is a +1 ability score bonus, so 10 + 3 + 1 = 14. The math works out the same if you use the formula (10 + 1.5 x 3 = 10 + 4.5 --> 10 + 4 = 14), as "half the spell level rounded down" is the ability score bonus of the required ability score.
And what if it's on two or more spell lists, none of which are those three classes (or Witch)?
Then choose what's best for the item. The DC difference is probably +0 or only +1, and that's not significant in the long run.
I like this blog, but I'd really love a more detailed blog on magic item creation. Maybe some of the arguments could be settled so they don't show up all the time.
- Is Caster Level requirements on Magical arms & armor bypassable by a +5 to DC, and if so, then is it one +5 DC for a level 3 character to make +5 vorpal weapon? Or multiples?
- Can the existing prices of magical items be reduced when a new class comes out with an existing spell (for example, Energy resistance on Armor is 18,000gp, but some people insist that now that the spell can be cast by lower level casters, it should be reduced to 4,500gp by raw).
I'm sure there's more, but those would be the two big ones from my point of view.
Then choose what's best for the item. The DC difference is probably +0 or only +1, and that's not significant in the long run.
It can make a big difference on pricing. There are those that are arguing that Energy Resistance on Armor should be 4,500 not 18,000 because now there are classes that can cast it at a lower level.
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What is or isn't bypassable with a +5 to your crafting Spellcraft check is something we are going to address in an eventual blog and FAQ.
Energy resistance costs what it should cost based on how powerful the ability is, not at what level some weird new class or race gets it.
Can I get a final pronouncement on whether the CL listing at the top of the block is an implicit requirement for crafting? I cannot shake the feeling that in the 3.0 era this was clarified; that you do not need to be CL 17th to create a pearl of power (1st). Some things said during the contest lead me to believe this may have changed during lo these many years.
How does this work? Can someone spell it out for me?
You should update the FAQ as well Sean, with the crafting questions, and a specific thing about 'new spell levels don't change cost of existing items'.
Lincoln, check the FAQ for the CRB, it specifically addresses the CL and the pearl of power.
Thanks for the post - I've cross-referenced everything with my submission, and it looks I've got it pretty right. Nice. :)
Now I just have to hope that the idea struck a chord with the judges!
Can I get a final pronouncement on whether the CL listing at the top of the block is an implicit requirement for crafting?
Relevant FAQ here. (Short answer: if it's not listed under Construction Requirements, it's not a requirement to create the item.)
I had this question while thinking about an entry for RPG Superstar, and ended up looking for similar items. The Helm of Brilliance lists
Diamond: Prismatic spray (save DC 20)
Fire opal: Fireball (10d6, Reflex DC 20 half)
with no mention of Heighten Spell in the requirements.
There's a lot of stuff grandfathered into the Core Rulebook that hasn't been scrutinized WRT details like this. Don't lose sleep trying to get the pricing on DMG/CR items to work right, as many of them don't follow the formulas (because the formulas are the backup method).
Regarding the spell being in italics, the template sent around for round 1 did not include the formatting specifier around the appropriate "ZZ" string for spells ("ZZspells"). I imagine a number of people probably didn't italicize their spells for fear of messing up the formatting with a bad code or doing something beyond what was asked. Is that a basis for elimination?
Hmmm... For Schools, I read in core
.... The description of each item provides its aura strength and the school to which it belongs.
If more than one spell is given as a prerequisite, use the highest-level spell.
School (singular) choose the highest, so I only put the one school of it's highest level prerequisite. :-/
Will there ever be updates to the costs of items? For example, the item that grants 10 free extra attacks (amongst other things) per day for 10k. Are extra attacks, +30 speed, and +1 AC for a round really worth 1k?
Hmmm... For Schools, I read in core
School (singular) choose the highest, so I only put the one school of it's highest level prerequisite. :-/.... The description of each item provides its aura strength and the school to which it belongs.
If more than one spell is given as a prerequisite, use the highest-level spell.
That's a little detail that won't decide the fate of your item. 3E and the Core Rulebook isn't really consistent on whether a multispell item has one or multiple auras listed, so we don't really care about that. We do care if your item is 100% necromancy and the aura only lists illusion...
Will there ever be updates to the costs of items? For example, the item that grants 10 free extra attacks (amongst other things) per day for 10k. Are extra attacks, +30 speed, and +1 AC for a round really worth 1k?
There isn't enough space in the book to include specific costs and examples for every possible power in the Core Rulebook, let alone ideas from other books and things not yet invented. That's why the first rule is "compare your item to items of similar power and effect."
Regarding the spell being in italics, the template sent around for round 1 did not include the formatting specifier around the appropriate "ZZ" string for spells ("ZZspells"). I imagine a number of people probably didn't italicize their spells for fear of messing up the formatting with a bad code or doing something beyond what was asked. Is that a basis for elimination?
No.
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RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16
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Will there ever be updates to the costs of items? For example, the item that grants 10 free extra attacks (amongst other things) per day for 10k. Are extra attacks, +30 speed, and +1 AC for a round really worth 1k?
It's actually a free attack or +30 speed, since you need a full attack to get the bonus attack, which means you're not moving more than a 5 foot step (unless you do something tricky that gives you an extra move action that round).
Will there ever be updates to the costs of items? For example, the item that grants 10 free extra attacks (amongst other things) per day for 10k. Are extra attacks, +30 speed, and +1 AC for a round really worth 1k?It's actually a free attack or +30 speed, since you need a full attack to get the bonus attack, which means you're not moving more than a 5 foot step (unless you do something tricky that gives you an extra move action that round).
You're right, a minor mistake on my part.
Can I get a final pronouncement on whether the CL listing at the top of the block is an implicit requirement for crafting?Relevant FAQ here. (Short answer: if it's not listed under Construction Requirements, it's not a requirement to create the item.)
Oh good, so it works like I thought. Thank you, Sean.
Chief Technical Officer
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Regarding the spell being in italics, the template sent around for round 1 did not include the formatting specifier around the appropriate "ZZ" string for spells ("ZZspells"). I imagine a number of people probably didn't italicize their spells for fear of messing up the formatting with a bad code or doing something beyond what was asked. Is that a basis for elimination?No.
Also, there's a reason why we didn't specify italics around the spell line: technically, it would be incorrect. The italicization is part of the format for spell names (wherever they may occur), and is not actually part of the format for the Requirements line. So if you have a comma separating two spell names, that comma is *not* italicized. Putting tags there in our template would suggest otherwise.
This is very useful information, a nice spot to start while looking into magic item creation. I shall shelve this for next RPG Superstar and begin amassing all of the articles. ALL!
This is like one of those exam questions where you second guess yourself.
Calculated DC would be X, but most enemies at Y level have only a 30% of succumbing. OK I will take Neil's advice and adjust it just a little higher.
DAMN!
Should have went with calculated. "Your first is answer is usually always correct." Exactly what I tell my students.
Is an extra attack and +1 AC for a round really worth 1k?
Is your question "Are they worth that much?" or "Are they worth that little?"
I have a feeling you'd have different people asking both questions, which isn't a bad sign for a balanced price.
Personally, I'm on the "wow that's cheap" side.
If you refer to specific spells, italicize them, like fireball or pearl of power.
So, pearl of power is now a spell? I really must do better at keeping up with errata.
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Ahem, that was supposed to say "spells or magic items."
Did I mention I wrote it in 15 minutes? :)
Fwiw,
d20PFSRD.com
Shows Boots of Teleportation as weighing 3 lbs and it's the same in the Core Rulebook I have (not sure how you tell what edition/print run it is).
For example, boots weigh 1 lb., so players don't have to remember different boot weights.
Let me quote myself a relevant quote:
There's a lot of stuff grandfathered into the Core Rulebook that hasn't been scrutinized WRT details like this.
:)
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Fwiw,
d20PFSRD.com
Shows Boots of Teleportation as weighing 3 lbs and it's the same in the Core Rulebook I have (not sure how you tell what edition/print run it is).
For example, boots weigh 1 lb., so players don't have to remember different boot weights.
Let me quote myself a relevant quote:
There's a lot of stuff grandfathered into the Core Rulebook that hasn't been scrutinized WRT details like this.:)
Ah, gotcha. And truly not trying to push the issue, but it's a bit confusing to state "boots weight 1 lb" as an example when there's an outlier that doesn't fit and which we don't know was grandfathered in.
I'm sure I could make a general weight statement about each typical item that uses a slot, and then search through the Core Rulebook and find one that doesn't match that. :p
Except rings, I really hope all of those have a listed weight of "—." :)
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I'm sure I could make a general weight statement about each typical item that uses a slot, and then search through the Core Rulebook and find one that doesn't match that. :p
Except rings, I really hope all of those have a listed weight of "—." :)
Frodo sure acted like it was a lot heavier... ;)
Vid: you can't edit after an hour.
The DC to craft is at the top. Not everything follows the formulas listed.
How did I miss this!? Thanks for the compilation, Sean.
Ruyan.
The DC to craft is at the top. Not everything follows the formulas listed.
Ahem:
Can I get a final pronouncement on whether the CL listing at the top of the block is an implicit requirement for crafting?Relevant FAQ here. (Short answer: if it's not listed under Construction Requirements, it's not a requirement to create the item.)
From this thread even.