You Gotta Have Faith!

deinol wrote:

hedgeknight wrote:

Sorry folks, NOT buying into a wuss paladin carrying around roses and reciting poetry and kissing ass instead of kicking it.

That's the coolest paladin concept I've heard in a very long time.

You're kidding? Right?

Not at all. On the other hand, I can't remember the last time I played a paladin. I find them kind of boring. Most of the time when someone plays a paladin in a game with me, it feels like a necessary evil. Only once have they been interesting as characters.

Then again, I also like social games. I've played a Courtier (from the Rokugan d20 book) in D&D before.

I agree I think it is a very cool paladin.

deinol wrote:

hedgeknight wrote:

Sorry folks, NOT buying into a wuss paladin carrying around roses and reciting poetry and kissing ass instead of kicking it.

That's the coolest paladin concept I've heard in a very long time.

You're kidding? Right?

I happen to think it's a really cool paladin concept also. And in fact, if I were to make a paladin, I'd strongly consider making him/her a paladin of Shelyn. (This is unlikely to occur, of course, since I much prefer bards, clerics, rogues, and druids.)

One of the strengths of the game is that it is so customizable, and so open to different styles of play. There's not a "right" or "wrong" way to play the game, and it's important to realize that what one person thinks is neat and cool isn't necessarily the same as what someone else would think is neat and cool.

deinol wrote:

hedgeknight wrote:

Sorry folks, NOT buying into a wuss paladin carrying around roses and reciting poetry and kissing ass instead of kicking it.

That's the coolest paladin concept I've heard in a very long time.

You're kidding? Right?

I think it's a cool concept as well. Shelyn is a NG goddess. As such, to me, she's much more a champion of what's good and noble in the world than those who revere the absolute rule (or tyranny) of law. Granted, a paladin certainly strives to uphold law and order, but (in my opinion) the wisest do so always with an eye toward that which accomplishes the greatest good. Thus, Shelyn embodies many of the aspects that I think the greatest champions for good would seek to emulate.

In addition, what is the greatest, most potent force in existence? Is it a weapon? No. It's the concept of love. It's an emotion that sways people more strongly than anything else. It's what causes them to act in a selfless manner...to elevate the human condition beyond our most base desires. The power of love throughout all of the world's greatest legends, myths, and stories is tremendously more moving and effective at conquering evil than just drawing your blade and hacking away.

Now that doesn't mean a champion of the goddess of love can't hand out a beatdown on the ugliness of true evil like anyone else. In fact, I'd daresay that someone with love guiding their actions will strike the strongest blow against such villains. They just apply considerable wisdom in determining when violence is necessary...i.e., when faced by an evil that's beyond redemption and which poses a greater threat to the innocents of the world rather than just themselves. That's when Shelyn's glaive (or the blades of her paladins) carve out a more appropriate solution.

By my book? You wouldn't be a paladin anyway, so it doesn't matter. If you REALLY want to play a non lawful-good holy warrior, there are plenty of options for clerics, rangers, cavaliers, and fighters, especially with the APG out now.

No need for that much. I know that it isn´t standard golarion stuff, but golarion gods are so distant from their clergy that i would find amusement creating plots about mistaken faiths. But with so much direct rules about which god is true and which isn´t i guess i will have to let it go. Clerics and paladins can´t be ever wrong about their gods teachings or else they would precisely lose their powers the moment they step outside of their square.

hedgeknight wrote:

deinol wrote:

hedgeknight wrote:

Sorry folks, NOT buying into a wuss paladin carrying around roses and reciting poetry and kissing ass instead of kicking it.

That's the coolest paladin concept I've heard in a very long time.

You're kidding? Right?

I happen to think it's a really cool paladin concept also. And in fact, if I were to make a paladin, I'd strongly consider making him/her a paladin of Shelyn. (This is unlikely to occur, of course, since I much prefer bards, clerics, rogues, and druids.)

One of the strengths of the game is that it is so customizable, and so open to different styles of play. There's not a "right" or "wrong" way to play the game, and it's important to realize that what one person thinks is neat and cool isn't necessarily the same as what someone else would think is neat and cool.

I just want to say that I like the concept as well, I played a non-violent monk once it was fun. it was a different game then normal but every one thought it was a good change of pace. Not for every one

Golf claps all around for the fine speeches. You folks must play with an entirely different group of players than I do or ever have. I just can't envision a limp-wristed paladin who loves his enemies to death. It's certainly not the version that has been portrayed since the early days of gaming. I'm all for "thinking outside of the box" but jeez...

Golf claps all around for the fine speeches. You folks must play with an entirely different group of players than I do or ever have. I just can't envision a limp-wristed paladin who loves his enemies to death. It's certainly not the version that has been portrayed since the early days of gaming. I'm all for "thinking outside of the box" but jeez...

Well when you reduce a cool concept into an offensive caricature...

Now I really wish I had made my tiefling paladin a Shelynite just to spite the haters. Well, hater. But since I'm playing my Iomedaean pretty close to those ideals anyway, I guess he still qualifies as a "limp-wristed" badwrong paladin then.

Golf claps all around for the fine speeches. You folks must play with an entirely different group of players than I do or ever have. I just can't envision a limp-wristed paladin who loves his enemies to death. It's certainly not the version that has been portrayed since the early days of gaming. I'm all for "thinking outside of the box" but jeez...

Yeah, because nobody ever started a war over the love of a woman.

It's a pretty, trivial, useless, passive emotion.

Yeah, because nobody ever started a war over the love of a woman.

Or martyred themselves for love.
Or went to Hell to save the woman he loved.
Or built one of the most famous buildings in the world to honor her.
Or created an order of knights to uphold the ideals of courtly love.
Or came back from the dead because of love.

It's a pretty, trivial, useless, passive emotion.

Sorry Sean - not impressed by these examples really. The only one that even implies that it relates to a paladin or order of paladins is the Round Table link. None of the rest have anything to do with the character of the paladin, although some of the concepts would make for a great adventure. Except for Depeche Mode - they're just...weird. :)

Heh-heh-heh.

Here's a real world example: Augustinian Just War theory. According to it, if you could not simultaneously love your enemy and kill them, a Christian soldier would be unable to execute his duty as a soldier. The requirement is that one MUST be able to due both simultaneously, otherwise, one would be a murderer. Only when the only way left to love the enemy is by killing them, is war justified under classic Augustinian theory. Oh, those limp-wristed Augustinians!

Sean K Reynolds wrote:

Yeah, because nobody ever started a war over the love of a woman.

Or martyred themselves for love.
Or went to Hell to save the woman he loved.
Or built one of the most famous buildings in the world to honor her.
Or created an order of knights to uphold the ideals of courtly love.
Or came back from the dead because of love.

It's a pretty, trivial, useless, passive emotion.

Sorry Sean - not impressed by these examples really. The only one that even implies that it relates to a paladin or order of paladins is the Round Table link. None of the rest have anything to do with the character of the paladin, although some of the concepts would make for a great adventure. Except for Depeche Mode - they're just...weird. :)

Man, those goal posts. I could've swore they were right here. Where'd they go?

Sorry Sean - not impressed by these examples really.

It's okay, some day the Wizard will give you a heart. ;)

hedgeknight wrote:

Sorry Sean - not impressed by these examples really.

It's okay, some day the Wizard will give you a heart. ;)

Then I wouldn't be just an empty kettle... :)

Sorry Sean - not impressed by these examples really. The only one that even implies that it relates to a paladin or order of paladins is the Round Table link. None of the rest have anything to do with the character of the paladin, although some of the concepts would make for a great adventure. Except for Depeche Mode - they're just...weird. :)

Argh! Must...not...be...pedantic...academic.... Must...resist..temptation...

Ah screw it! I know what I am and I'll play your game. So, you'll only accept courtly love stories about paladins as evidence for Sean's points? Okay, fine. Prepare to do your reading. Here's the class syllabus.

Ever heard of the Man of La Mancha, a guy called Don Quixote? Novel by Cervantes, extremely famous work of Spanish literature, big hit on the American stage in the mid-20th century. Don Quixote was defending the honor of his lady, the beautiful Dulcinea. Okay, he was a delusional old man and she was a hooker, but whatever. Still a story about paladinhood and courtly love.

Too crazy for you and therefore "doesn't count"? Well, in the end of it there are a couple books which inspired Don Quixote: The Amadis de Gaul and Las Sergas de Esplandian.

From the wikipedia summary of The Amadis de Gaul:

As a knight, Amadís is courteous, gentle, sensitive and a Christian who dares to defend free love. Unlike most literary heroes of his time (French and German, for example) Amadís is a handsome man who would cry if refused by his lady, but is invincible in battle and usually emerges drenched in his own and his opponent's blood.

Hmm, does that sound at all familiar to the write-up above?

Let's go with Amadis son, Esplandian, who sets off on paladinly exploits like his father, and the novel includes this entertaining passage:

Know that on the right hand from the Indies exists an island called California very close to a side of the Earthly Paradise; and it was populated by black women, without any man existing there, because they lived in the way of the Amazons. They had beautiful and robust bodies, and were brave and very strong. Their island was the strongest of the World, with its cliffs and rocky shores. Their weapons were golden and so were the harnesses of the wild beasts that they were accustomed to domesticate and ride, because there was no other metal in the island than gold.

Yes, this was the Isle of California, ruled by Queen Calafia, her beauteous amazons, and their legions of man-eating griffons. Esplandian later converts Calafia and her ladies to Christianity and they go off to the Crusades, flying their griffons, but the novel is more than a literary footnote because, while considered bad by Cervantes, it was also the potboiler that Cortez and his men had on board when they went off as Conquistadors, mistook the Baja peninsula for the Isle of California, and sent the Portola party up the coast to be particularly freaked out by the California condors which they thought were Calafia's man-eating griffons (and thus explaining the condor's Latin name).

But I'm certain that Amadis and his championing of free love, and Esplandian and his really hot Amazon queen girlfriend and her retinue of griffon-riding warrior babes are still probably not enough. And you already conceded the point of Arthur and the Knights of the Round Table, so we just need to go a little further and look at the orgins of the the word "Paladin."

Aside from Arthur and his knights, there were the Legends of Charlemagne and his paladins. Now, you could note that there were twelve peers among the paladins and just do a global search on the document and look for the word "love" and find out all sorts of stories about them and their relationship with love, or you could take my word for it that the very first of those paladins mentioned, Orlando, is the same Orlando immortalized in Orlando Furioso, one of the world's most famous epic poems, which is all about Orlando's love for Angelique, princess of Cathay, the dwarf who steals her magic ring, an evil wizard, and oh yes, the very first literary appearance of a hippogriff. If that weren't enough, the hippogriff is also a literary symbol of impossibility and love since it was conceived from a horse and a griffon that likes to eat horses.

So, if you have your paladin flying around of a hippogriff, you've got a knight from an epic love poem flying around on a symbol of love succeeding against all odds.

I think I can rest my case.

Sorry folks, NOT buying into a wuss paladin carrying around roses and reciting poetry and kissing ass instead of kicking it.

That kinda reminds of me a scene from Naamah's Kiss... *dirty grin*

Actually someone thinking of playing a cleric or paladin of Shelyn (or Calistria for that matter) could get a lot of inspiration from the books set in that world.

*snip* limp-wristed paladin *snip*

Ah. See there are some words and phrases which can seem innocent enough, without a single dirty word, or swear word in them. They can get tossed into a conversation without a second thought.

But if you take time to think about what you are saying is:

You can't respect a paladin who defends and upholds traditionally feminine qualities. Like Beauty, Love and Redemption.

But words "limp-wristed" really get me right in the inner editor, because it's a code word. I know what you mean, you know what you mean and you are free to say anything you like. I am also free to be offended. Suffice to say: I hope I never have to play with friends like yours.

Dragnmoon wrote:

LoreKeeper wrote:

Extending the thought a bit: what about a drunken master (monk); he could be lawful good and a follower of Cayden Cailean?

A Monk is not a Paladin.

Exactly. There is no requirement to have a deity for the monk class... its powers come from within, not from the divine, so there's no one-step rule for monks (or any other character that doesn't require a deity).

The paladin's write-up does not mention any 1-step alignment requirement. And the above confirms that alignment of the devotee does not need to match the alignment of the deity within one step. A lawful-good monk could follow the chaotic-good god Cayden Cailean.

What is good for the goose is good for the gander. By extension, a lawful-good paladin could follow Cayden Cailean. Just because the paladin is a bit stiff and rigid in his ways, does not mean that his code and philosophies are incompatible. The paladin might be disciplined and lawful in his *personal* ways, because he has the freedom to chose to live as he pleases.

Finally, the paladin could be a paladin of a principle, rather than a specific deity. Similar to oracles. Who the paladin gives lipservice to becomes irrelevant in such a scenario.

Shelyn's Paladin code reminds me a bit of the Paladins of Rao, in Greyhawk, the LG god of peace, reason and serenity, whose paladins were generally assigned to missions that called for both diplomacy and, when necessary, force.

Nice to see a more 'New Testament' sort of Paladin, who may not be eager to take the first swing, but will certainly make the last...

Well, in my country, at least, we believe that god IS love, that he love each one of us and we should love everyone too. So since the begining we got the impression that the right way to portray a paladin should be like that. The murderous paladin was ever a strange concept to us.

The paladin's write-up does not mention any 1-step alignment requirement. And the above confirms that alignment of the devotee does not need to match the alignment of the deity within one step. A lawful-good monk could follow the chaotic-good god Cayden Cailean.

What is good for the goose is good for the gander. By extension, a lawful-good paladin could follow Cayden Cailean. Just because the paladin is a bit stiff and rigid in his ways, does not mean that his code and philosophies are incompatible. The paladin might be disciplined and lawful in his *personal* ways, because he has the freedom to chose to live as he pleases.

Finally, the paladin could be a paladin of a principle, rather than a specific deity. Similar to oracles. Who the paladin gives lipservice to becomes irrelevant in such a scenario.

That's your opinion. If you want to have Paladins of CG gods or Paladins of different allignments then go ahead, it's your game.

Officially however Golarion has Paladins who are LG and worship LG, LN and NG gods only. That is the Word of God on the subject.

Personally I am with the rigid allignment restriction. Cayden Cailean is far too boisterous and irresponsible to match the code of the Paladin. A Paladin does not believe in freedom as a concept, he believes in an orderly society that upholds the rights and privileges of its people.

Cayden Cailean believes in following your heart, that the greater good is more important than strict, proscriptive codes of ethics. A follower of Cayden Cailean can happily lie, cheat and steal so long as it is all for a good cause. Local children going hungry? Well breaking into the local bakery and stealing a few loaves isn't too bad, after all it's all for the kids and the baker can afford it. Cayden Cailean lives for the now, making it up as he goes along and not caring if he breaks the rules, so long as it's makes people's lives better and he has fun doing it.

These ideals are, in my opinion, incompatible with the rigid code of ethics that are required of a paladin. A Paladin would never break the law (unless by doing so a great evil will be prevented and then only if there was no other choice), never lose control and never compromise. The concept of doing something dubious for the greater good does not apply to the Paladin. He prides himself on achieving his goals without committing acts that would go against his beliefs. The actions taken to achieve a goal must be beyond reproach, otherwise you tarnish the goal you were trying to achieve.

As for Paladins of Shelyn, I think they fit into the concept of a Paladin perfectly.

A Paladin should only raise a blade when he is forced to or when his opponent is in and of itself a creature of irredeemeble evil such as an undead creature or evil outsider. A paladin fights to protect himself and others, needless violence, even under severe provocation, is an anathema to a paladin. Given that a Paladin's purpose is to protect and nurture a good and just society then I believe that paladins of Shelyn fit very well. Peace and redemption are key goals of Shelyn and that fits nicely with the Paladin lifestyle.

But by the same token paladins of LN or NG deities compromise on their values. A paladin of Abadar upholds the law sure. But Abadar's laws can be cold, outdated, impractical - they can, in a word, be without justice. Likewise a paladin of Sheylin associates himself with a deity that is known to compromise on rules for the sake of greater beauty - arguing that beauty increases the well-being of the society.

Now, I agree that LN and NG paladins should be viable (and that is obviously confirmed by Paizo) - but one should keep in mind that personal values and morals can be disjoint from the paladin and his/her deity. Just like a lawful monk can follow Cayden Cailean and have some differences in opinion - so a paladin should be able to follow Cayden Cailean.

On a technical level it would come down to whether the god in question is willing to empower the paladin. Maybe Cayden Cailean *does* mind that the paladin has a routine and washes frequently, and thus does not grant the paladin powers. Or maybe he's open-minded about it - "sure, the guy doesn't break into the bakery, but he did organize a fund-raiser. I guess this guy isn't so bad afterall".

That is the Word of God on the subject.

Although (I think) James Jacobs says he hates that it happened, Council of Thieves 5 (Pathfinder 29) does say:

Paladins also have a strange relationship with the Archfiend. Though the idea of a lawful good paladin serving a lawful evil deity seems ridiculous, it can happen.

hedgeknight wrote:

Sorry Sean - not impressed by these examples really. The only one that even implies that it relates to a paladin or order of paladins is the Round Table link. None of the rest have anything to do with the character of the paladin, although some of the concepts would make for a great adventure. Except for Depeche Mode - they're just...weird. :)

Argh! Must...not...be...pedantic...academic....

GO! GO! GO! GO!

Although (I think) James Jacobs says he hates that it happened, Council of Thieves 5 (Pathfinder 29) does say:

Quote:

Paladins also have a strange relationship with the Archfiend. Though the idea of a lawful good paladin serving a lawful evil deity seems ridiculous, it can happen.

James (the creative director) has basically retconned that out of the world, as he doesn't like the idea of paladins of Asmodeus.

LoreKeeper wrote:

Although (I think) James Jacobs says he hates that it happened, Council of Thieves 5 (Pathfinder 29) does say:

Quote:

Paladins also have a strange relationship with the Archfiend. Though the idea of a lawful good paladin serving a lawful evil deity seems ridiculous, it can happen.

James (the creative director) has basically retconned that out of the world, as he doesn't like the idea of paladins of Asmodeus.

Awwww, poor Sean. :)

Awwww, poor Sean. :)

THERE ARE FOUR LIGHTS!!!

I want to see Cayden's code state, "Freedom is the right of all sentient beings."

Optimus Prime, Paladin of Cayden Cailean :-)

Cayden's Paladins would likely look like the 'Holy Liberator', which if I recall was a CG Prestige Class in the Complete Divine splatbook.

Gorbacz wrote:

Awwww, poor Sean. :)

THERE ARE FOUR LIGHTS!!!

Gotta love Trek references....

What is good for the goose is good for the gander. By extension, a lawful-good paladin could follow Cayden Cailean.

Nope. Doesn't work.

A paladin who joins a faith but then doesn't follow that faith's teachings isn't REALLY part of that faith. He's acting chaotic in that faith—it doesn't matter if he thinks his own code is Lawful—by acting like a heretic or blasphemer, his actions are causing chaos. That results in a drift away from law and toward chaos, which results in a loss of paladin abilities.

The rules don't say it, but they should just to keep things obvious—a paladin has to be Lawful Good, and thus if he worships a deity, that deity should be Lawful Good, Neutral Good, or Lawful Neutral.

Of course... unless your GM houserules it otherwise.

But I'm not interested in your house rules in this context. I'm just interested in paladins as they exist in Golarion as printed, and as portrayed in print, and as it pertains to the Pathfinder Society org play program.

Matthew Morris wrote:

I want to see Cayden's code state, "Freedom is the right of all sentient beings."

Optimus Prime, Paladin of Cayden Cailean :-)

Cayden's Paladins would likely look like the 'Holy Liberator', which if I recall was a CG Prestige Class in the Complete Divine splatbook.

This is an EXCELLENT solution for players or GMs who want a "paladin-like" class for Cayden, but for whatever reason don't think that a cleric or cavalier or ranger or the like does the trick. There's also options in Unearthed Arcana, as well as a CG variant paladin in Dragon #310 (written by yours truly, in fact!).

There's also the chevelier prestige class in PF#14, in the writeup for Cayden Cailean. I have one running in my Second Darkness game. You even get Aura of Courage and Smite Evil.

Sean K Reynolds wrote:

LoreKeeper wrote:

Although (I think) James Jacobs says he hates that it happened, Council of Thieves 5 (Pathfinder 29) does say:

Quote:

Paladins also have a strange relationship with the Archfiend. Though the idea of a lawful good paladin serving a lawful evil deity seems ridiculous, it can happen.

James (the creative director) has basically retconned that out of the world, as he doesn't like the idea of paladins of Asmodeus.

Awwww, poor Sean. :)

Don't pity him. He had his moment of insanity, it's over, and he has Jodi to comfort him.

hedgeknight wrote:

*snip* limp-wristed paladin *snip*

Ah. See there are some words and phrases which can seem innocent enough, without a single dirty word, or swear word in them. They can get tossed into a conversation without a second thought.

But if you take time to think about what you are saying is:

You can't respect a paladin who defends and upholds traditionally feminine qualities. Like Beauty, Love and Redemption.

But words "limp-wristed" really get me right in the inner editor, because it's a code word. I know what you mean, you know what you mean and you are free to say anything you like. I am also free to be offended. Suffice to say: I hope I never have to play with friends like yours.

If you are offended then you wouldn't be welcome among friends like mine.

Plus, I disagree that Beauty, Love, and Redemption are feminine qualities; I see them as innate human qualities.

@Kevin - nice write up, but I don't really care. However, Against All Odds was a pretty good movie - some hot steaminess going on!

I for one am happy they are bringing gallantry back to the paladin... it's been a long haul since 2nd edition's Complete Paladin Handbook! :)

deinol wrote:

hedgeknight wrote:

Sorry folks, NOT buying into a wuss paladin carrying around roses and reciting poetry and kissing ass instead of kicking it.

That's the coolest paladin concept I've heard in a very long time.

You're kidding? Right?

Actually, I like the concept as well. A paladin does not have to be stereo typical blinded by the light. I can not count how many foaming at the mouth holier than thou paladins that I have seen. The concept is pretty old and worn out. Options enhance the game and help keep the game interesting. I am looking forward to the other paladin codes as well.

After all this is just options, if you personally do not like them just do not use them.

There are paladin codes for the following deities in this book:

Erastil (LG)
Iomedae (LG)
Sarenrae (NG)
Shelyn (NG)
Torag (LG)

That sounds awesome James!

I know the Torag write-up will probably quench my thirst, but do you think that we could get (via blog please pretty please) somekind of similar write-up for a LN god? Abadar-flavored trade/mercantile/the-fine-for-this-crime-is-this pally would be fantastic! Irori "zen paladins" would be cool as well! :)

Kols, with the "duty" portfolio and "law, nobility" domains sounds like a cool candidate as well....... :)

I know the Torag write-up will probably quench my thirst, but do you think that we could get (via blog please pretty please) somekind of similar write-up for a LN god? Abadar-flavored trade/mercantile/the-fine-for-this-crime-is-this pally would be fantastic! Irori "zen paladins" would be cool as well! :)

I'm sure those will be covered in the Faiths of Balance companion scheduled for June. They split the major non-evil aligned gods into two books for more in-depth coverage of each.

After all this is just options, if you personally do not like them just do not use them.

You're absolutely right; that's what I plan to do (or not to do). However, a paladin of Torag sounds pretty awesome!

I know the Torag write-up will probably quench my thirst, but do you think that we could get (via blog please pretty please) somekind of similar write-up for a LN god? Abadar-flavored trade/mercantile/the-fine-for-this-crime-is-this pally would be fantastic! Irori "zen paladins" would be cool as well! :)

Some neat ideas here.

And here.

I'm pretty sure that the paladin code for Torag is in Faiths of Purity.

We just had a Paladin of Sheylyn join my RotRL PbP group here on the boards.Not quite sure how she fits into this code though with being a Dominatrix and all.

On the other hand some people consider BDSM an art form,some..very.. strange..people.

James Jacobs wrote:

There are paladin codes for the following deities in this book:

Erastil (LG)
Iomedae (LG)
Sarenrae (NG)
Shelyn (NG)
Torag (LG)

That sounds awesome James!

I know the Torag write-up will probably quench my thirst, but do you think that we could get (via blog please pretty please) somekind of similar write-up for a LN god? Abadar-flavored trade/mercantile/the-fine-for-this-crime-is-this pally would be fantastic! Irori "zen paladins" would be cool as well! :)

Kols, with the "duty" portfolio and "law, nobility" domains sounds like a cool candidate as well....... :)

Ive been itching to play a dwarven paladin of Torag for a while now. When I read the code for them, Ill want to play one even more :)

@Kevin - nice write up, but I don't really care. However, Against All Odds was a pretty good movie - some hot steaminess going on!

You're lucky you're not a real paladin because that sort of goal post shifting and going back on you word would get you into hot water.

Purple Dragon Knight wrote:

I know the Torag write-up will probably quench my thirst, but do you think that we could get (via blog please pretty please) somekind of similar write-up for a LN god? Abadar-flavored trade/mercantile/the-fine-for-this-crime-is-this pally would be fantastic! Irori "zen paladins" would be cool as well! :)

I'm sure those will be covered in the Faiths of Balance companion scheduled for June. They split the major non-evil aligned gods into two books for more in-depth coverage of each.

Yup.

Purple Dragon Knight wrote:

I know the Torag write-up will probably quench my thirst, but do you think that we could get (via blog please pretty please) somekind of similar write-up for a LN god? Abadar-flavored trade/mercantile/the-fine-for-this-crime-is-this pally would be fantastic! Irori "zen paladins" would be cool as well! :)

I'm sure those will be covered in the Faiths of Balance companion scheduled for June. They split the major non-evil aligned gods into two books for more in-depth coverage of each.

I'm a little disappointed that Paizo did not go with my pitch for treating religions of true neutral alignment in a separate companion, titled, Faiths of Meh, but, whatever.

hedgeknight wrote:

@Kevin - nice write up, but I don't really care. However, Against All Odds was a pretty good movie - some hot steaminess going on!

You're lucky you're not a real paladin because that sort of goal post shifting and going back on you word would get you into hot water.

Er...okay, whatever.

I'm a little disappointed that Paizo did not go with my pitch for treating religions of true neutral alignment in a separate companion, titled, Faiths of Meh, but, whatever.

Well played, Leafy Face, well played.

deinol wrote:

Purple Dragon Knight wrote:

I know the Torag write-up will probably quench my thirst, but do you think that we could get (via blog please pretty please) somekind of similar write-up for a LN god? Abadar-flavored trade/mercantile/the-fine-for-this-crime-is-this pally would be fantastic! Irori "zen paladins" would be cool as well! :)

I'm sure those will be covered in the Faiths of Balance companion scheduled for June. They split the major non-evil aligned gods into two books for more in-depth coverage of each.

Yup.

LN gods in Faiths of Balance? cool! :)

I'm having a weird philosophical insight: maybe that in all settings, humans end up ruling as they have gods across the whole spectrum of alignment. This allows for flexibility of existence without being cast out of one's society, and perhaps the catalyst for innovation. A societal "pressure relief valve" of sorts.

LE Elf? they send you in exile from Kyonin
CE Dwarf? they make you a pariah and/or the brand new certified canari in the cole mine
Evil or Good or Meh Human? go to either street A, B or C... they got all angles covered.... granted some religions will operate in some basement in secret, but in general, no need to go to other towns and/or countries in shame... :P

LE Elf? they send you in exile from Kyonin

Given some of the policies and attitudes in Kyonin(and the Lantern Bearers), LE elves probably fit right into certain aspects of elf society.

Back to that code: The Shelynite Paladin Code is good and Shelynite paladins should feel good.

On a technical level it would come down to whether the god in question is willing to empower the paladin. Maybe Cayden Cailean *does* mind that the paladin has a routine and washes frequently, and thus does not grant the paladin powers. Or maybe he's open-minded about it - "sure, the guy doesn't break into the bakery, but he did organize a fund-raiser. I guess this guy isn't so bad afterall".

Well, aside from the fact that Cayden Cailean is pretty easy-going (that said, if I wanted to play a holy warrior of Cayden Cailean, my first thought without getting into third-party sources would be to play an Inquisitor out of the APG), keep in mind that paladins are a little more than just a fighter with a holy symbol. It's not a matter of "Does God X have paladins" as it is "Would God X empower someone of LG alignment and authorize them as a representative of all that God X stands for, even to the point of keeping a close enough eye to strip their powers if they screw up." Chaotic gods, even good ones, might simply see a LG character as a little stuffy to be their representative.

(Or, alternately, I might follow James' earlier suggestion and dig through my back copies of Dragon for issue 310 and do some tweaking for consistency, as I always preferred that version over the UA one.)