Director of Game Design
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I disagree that it is a mischaracterization.
Yeah, balance is most certainly a matter of perspective.
But we are not simply asking "is the sorcerer still under the level of completely broken?" we are asking "is this an equivalent power to gaining 1 hp per level?"Here is a question for you: Using whatever your Extra Spell feat is, how close to the same would these two characters come out:
Sorcerer A takes your new favored class ability and Toughness and spends the rest of his feats however he sees fit.
Sorcerer B takes +1 HP/level and spends all his feats on Extra Spells. (not knowing here, but just for the sake of argument assume the GM permits taking the feat multiple times)Are they roughly equivalent?
The problem with this equation, and most arguments like this, is that you are assuming that toughness is on par with every other feat, which it is clearly not. Nor is Extra Spell a great feat.
These sorts of comparisons certainly work to attempt to prove points, but they are often flawed, forcing me to go back to other metrics.. such as what is the actual impact on the game. In this case, an extra spell, of a level lower than your highest, added to your list of spells known, is not really all that unbalancing to the game.
Thats about all there is to it.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
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Director of Game Design
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I disagree that it is a mischaracterization.
Yeah, balance is most certainly a matter of perspective.
But we are not simply asking "is the sorcerer still under the level of completely broken?" we are asking "is this an equivalent power to gaining 1 hp per level?"At first through third levels, this ability might as well not exist.
At fourth level, I'm trying to decide if -1 hp is worth taking my 4th-most-wanted 1st level spell. It probably is.
At fifth level, I'm trying to decide if -1 hp is worth my sixth-most-wanted spell. I don't think it would be.
At sixth level, I'm trying to decide if it's worth -1 hp to get my 3rd-most-wanted second-level spell. Oh, definitely.
At seventh level, it's now -1 hp for my fifth-most-wanted spell. I'm not so sure.
Are you seeing the pattern here?
This is exactly the same calculus we went through when balancing out these abilities.
Its good, but its not quite a great in practice as it seems to be.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
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At first through third levels... Are you seeing the pattern here?
+1 - this is exactly why claims that "why would anyone ever play a non-human sorcerer again" are really silly. I'd wager to say 60-70% of all games are in the level 1-10 range, if not more.
When you're rolling a 1st level sorcerer, so many other things look tasty for those first 5 levels than the future benefit of this variant at level 4 and 6. I suspect half-orc and dwarf sorcerers are safe, even without any racial variant love in the APG (a guess), and will continue to be seen joining games and APs at 1st level without any fears of being sub-optimal.
I can tell you, without a doubt, good BBEG sorcerers will take the HPs over the known spells, and simply get some scrolls for those utility spells they might want to cast!
You mean the spells they don't know because they never had those spells on their spell list? And that's GREAT for BBEGs. They have infinite DM money. You know who doesn't? Players.
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My bigger issue with it is that, because of how this is set up, human-only (or at least limited to a race or two); I think that sorcs can survive a power bump, but giving it to humans only? Ogre raised this early on, and I think it's a fairly big problem.
I think Jason Nelson made a great point, we're seeing a corner of the options and it's too early to make judgments. Perhaps the gnome or halfling races have great favored class options also. That said, it pretty clearly raises the power curve for the sorcerer class overall. How much is debatable.
I have to disagree with Bulmahn's comment that lower level spells don't increase the classes power. The big problem with the sorcerer is your spells known aren't always effective for the situation at hand. The more spells you can cover the more likely you are going to have an effective option.
The sorcerer doesn't worry me too much though because he's never been the most toughest class in the game. What worries me more is the possibility that there are options like this for every class which ratchet up the whole game.
Having levels more HP or skill points is nowhere near the power introduced into the system by having an extra level-1 spell. What skill makes me turn into a Giant? What level of hit points makes me invisible?
More versatility may not always be equal to more power, but you would have to have something hardcore powerful by itself to override the fact that the more versatile you are, the more powerful you are in any given situation.
It's starting to appear that Paizo skipped right over Complete Warrior and went right to Book of Nine Swords.
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At first through third levels... Are you seeing the pattern here?+1 - this is exactly why claims that "why would anyone ever play a non-human sorcerer again" are really silly. I'd wager to say 60-70% of all games are in the level 1-10 range, if not more.
Do you play sorcerers much? Because extra spells at low levels are great. Given the choice at 4th level between getting an extra HP or getting mage armor or silent image is a pretty easy one.
Since there aren't a lot of great cantrips you would take hit points from 1-3 level then switch to bonus spells at every level after that.
No offence but ... you've come to that conclusion based on this one little preview?
It's starting to appear that Paizo skipped right over Complete Warrior and went right to Book of Nine Swords.
That human sorc ability is pretty ridonkulous. Will there be a similar one for wizards to get 3 spells at each new level?
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Director of Game Design
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I have to disagree with Bulmahn's comment that lower level spells don't increase the classes power. The big problem with the sorcerer is your spells known aren't always effective for the situation at hand. The more spells you can cover the more likely you are going to have an effective option.
Well, let me rephrase here just a bit. It does increase the power, but not by the magnitude that some would imply. Being able to cast a useful spell in a situation is more powerful than not being able to, but most sorcerers gravitate toward spells that are useful in most situations anyway, so this just adds options to how they are useful.
There is some power there, but it is not quite as good in reality as it is on paper. Better than +1 hp or +1 skill point.. possibly, depending on the situation.
Folks need to calm it down a bit. We've got five more previews before launch and I cannot give you the whole picture, not by a long shot...
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
Well, let me rephrase here just a bit. It does increase the power, but not by the magnitude that some would imply. Being able to cast a useful spell in a situation is more powerful than not being able to, but most sorcerers gravitate toward spells that are useful in most situations anyway
...due to a lack of spells per level.
There is some power there, but it is not quite as good in reality as it is on paper. Better than +1 hp or +1 skill point.. possibly, depending on the situation.
I demand to know a situation where +1 skill point or +1 HP outranks a spell of level-1. Maybe a level 1 where you know all level 0 spells anyway.
That human sorc ability is pretty ridonkulous. Will there be a similar one for wizards to get 3 spells at each new level?There is a difference between being concerned after seeing something and running around screaming "APG is BROKEN, IT's BROKEN!!"
Cartigan's post looks more like the latter.
I make 2 posts in a 100 post thread on the last page and I am the face of the opposition.
The kettles around here sure are opinionated.
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At first through third levels... Are you seeing the pattern here?+1 - this is exactly why claims that "why would anyone ever play a non-human sorcerer again" are really silly. I'd wager to say 60-70% of all games are in the level 1-10 range, if not more.Do you play sorcerers much? Because extra spells at low levels are great. Given the choice at 4th level between getting an extra HP or getting mage armor or silent image is a pretty easy one.
Since there aren't a lot of great cantrips you would take hit points from 1-3 level then switch to bonus spells at every level after that.
Don't know about you, but whenever I've played a sorcerer the only time I really wanted another spell known was either the level I got a new level of spells or the level after. By the time the spell level is one below your highest, I've already hit my main desired spells and the rest end up as "nice, but not likely to come up often" spells.
The biggest diff you'll get is going from 9\6\6\5\5\5\4\4\4\4 to 12\8\8\7\7\7\6\6\7\4*, and the first few are far more important than the last few.Also, despite the fact that you can get items for more spells or items for more skills or items for more HP, there is a limit to the latter two. You can always buy another scroll or another staff, but once you've hit +6 con or int you're done.
*I'm including bonus spells from bloodline in these figures.
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I demand to know a situation where +1 skill point or +1 HP outranks a spell of level-1. Maybe a level 1 where you know all level 0 spells anyway.
Any time you have n-1 hit points where n is the number of points of damage you are about to take.
I make 2 posts in a 100 post thread on the last page and I am the face of the opposition.
The kettles around here sure are opinionated.
Most of the posts were making observations about whether that specific power was OTT. Your post was a comment about the entire book and loaded with hyperbole.
It's starting to appear that Paizo skipped right over Complete Warrior and went right to Book of Nine Swords.
Wow.
From 3.0 to 3.5 I have had only one player take a level of sorcerer. His fighter took one level of sorcerer for "expedious charge."
The reason for this is that the Wizard is far more versitle with the ability to scribe scrolls as part of the class. As cheap as scrolls are and with no XP cost, a wizard would be silly not to carry a load of scrolls for the odd occasion.
The wisard in my CoT campaign has a load of mage armor scrolls that he uses on himself and the monk. I believe he had a bunch of protection from evil scrolls at one point too.
Even a few extra spells known puts a sorcerer why behind what a wizard can pull off with scrolls. This in no way equals Book of Nine Swords.
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Director of Game Design
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I demand to know a situation where +1 skill point or +1 HP outranks a spell of level-1. Maybe a level 1 where you know all level 0 spells anyway.
You demand.. really? Lets just walk things back here a bit before folks start making demands. This is just a preview taken out of context. Lets all just calm down a bit.
As has been pointed out, the need for level 0 spells starts to wane pretty fast, and even the level 1 spells become less attractive once you know five of them. I am not saying it is even necessarily, but its not a slam dunk either.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
Getting an ulcer
I demand to know a situation where +1 skill point or +1 HP outranks a spell of level-1. Maybe a level 1 where you know all level 0 spells anyway.
I can give my personal answer to this question. Never. Spells are always better (again, this is MY personal view).
But here's the catch: most (if not all) of these options should be better anyway than the 'plain' +1 hp or +1 skill point, simply because they represent the inherent advantage of some races toward some classes. At least, this is my reading regarding this (I could be wrong, of course).
As to Humans gaining an upper edge against other races again (because they are the only ones to benefit from these 'alternate favored class bonuses' on ALL classes), well, I remember that when the Core Rulebook went out, there was a small uprising toward 'Humans are not king anymore' or something like that - Half-Elves had some elven goodies (bonuses to enchantment, sleep immunity, Low-light vision, +2 Perception), one fixed bonus feat at 1st (Skill Focus), +2 to one ability score and two favored classes; Half-Orcs had Ferocity (better than nothing - I don't like it particularily, but it is a lesser version of the Diehard feat), Darkvision, Weapon Familiarity (with good weapons), +2 to Intimidate and +2 to one ability score; Humans had one extra feat (any one) at 1st level, one extra skill point per level, +2 to one ability score... and nothing else.
I dare to say that the 'custom favored class bonus' to each class (again, I dare to say 'better than a plain +1 hp or +1 skill point') is their last racial goodie. It simply came out later than expected.
Just my 2c.
You demand.. really?
Also cake.
I demand to know a situation where +1 skill point or +1 HP outranks a spell of level-1. Maybe a level 1 where you know all level 0 spells anyway.
You demand.. really? Lets just walk things back here a bit before folks start making demands. This is just a preview taken out of context. Lets all just calm down a bit.
As has been pointed out, the need for level 0 spells starts to wane pretty fast, and even the level 1 spells become less attractive once you know five of them. I am not saying it is even necessarily, but its not a slam dunk either.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
Getting an ulcer
I think it is a reasonable favorite class bonus and I am looking forward to seeing more. If the half-elf bard, a iconic race/class combination, had something similar I would definitely consider it over either +1 HP or skill.
Doug
Even a few extra spells known puts a sorcerer why behind what a wizard can pull off with scrolls. This in no way equals Book of Nine Swords.
Of course we don't know what human wizards get, but that's beside the point.
The point of my statement was power hike. Speaking of which, comparing Sorcerer to Wizards is obviously a false comparison. The correct comparison to make is Human Sorcerer A to inhuman Sorcerer B. One single more spell known by Mr A puts him well ahead of B. B may be able to have skills to pick a lock.. or something, but A had an extra spell slot to learn Knock with instead.
Sure, B may be able to take an extra couple Kobold rocks, but A spent his extra spell slot on something that makes him immune to Kobold rocks.
I demand to know a situation where +1 skill point or +1 HP outranks a spell of level-1. Maybe a level 1 where you know all level 0 spells anyway.
You demand.. really? Lets just walk things back here a bit before folks start making demands. This is just a preview taken out of context. Lets all just calm down a bit.
As has been pointed out, the need for level 0 spells starts to wane pretty fast, and even the level 1 spells become less attractive once you know five of them. I am not saying it is even necessarily, but its not a slam dunk either.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
Getting an ulcer
Calm down. We do nto want you getting an ulcer. We need you too much for that to happen.
Lisa, Jason needs a vacation. Stat!
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You demand.. really? Lets just walk things back here a bit before folks start making demands. This is just a preview taken out of context. Lets all just calm down a bit.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
Getting an ulcer
If you're lucky, the burning is just all the flames round here.
I think you and the others have called this one about right based on your 'calculus' comment above. It's good, but not something that you'd take at every level.
What I've seen so far has left me hungry for more APG goodness - good work.
Oh, since alcohol kills bacteria, beer might kill off the bacteria that causes ulcers.
You demand.. really?Also cake.
You were smart to back down, Cartigan. If you'd have asked for milord's pie or rum, me crew'd have gutted ya and used your carcass for holystoning the deck.
I demand to know a situation where +1 skill point or +1 HP outranks a spell of level-1. Maybe a level 1 where you know all level 0 spells anyway.
I'd like to point out that hit points and skill points are always there, but those low level spells that you might learn aren't nessissarily going to be useful at higher levels. Sure, trading in one hit point for one spell is amazing and seems unbalanced, but if you do it too many times you'll end up weaker in the end in my opinion.
Personally, I like this new option for human sorcerers. Plus, keep in mind that there are lots of reasons to not choose a human even if they get the best favored class bonuses: all the other races are getting nice trait and feat options in their Pathfinder Companion books.
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Ah, the joys of being a game designer active on the company forums.
Wait until the next preview and we see the GM Feat of "Electrocute Players".
Until that happens, perhaps we can engage JB with relatively polite questions.
I'm still buying some high-tension cables and wiring up the game table, though.
Lisa, Jason needs a vacation. Stat!
Wait didn't Jason just get back from a vacation? (well a move into his new place vacation) Maybe someone should just take him out for a drink after work. I hear Cosmo is buying.:)
Ah, the joys of being a game designer active on the company forums.
Wait until the next preview and we see the GM Feat of "Electrocute Players".
Until that happens, perhaps we can engage JB with relatively polite questions.
I'm still buying some high-tension cables and wiring up the game table, though.
~laughter~ I am all for that GM Feat!
I'd like to point out that hit points and skill points are always there, but those low level spells that you might learn aren't nessissarily going to be useful at higher levels. Sure, trading in one hit point for one spell is amazing and seems unbalanced, but if you do it too many times you'll end up weaker in the end in my opinion.
Somewhat, probably. But again, which skill or amount of hitpoints turns me into a Cloud Giant or makes me invisible? Almost anything a skill can do, a low level spell can do better. Especially if you know the spell and don't have to UMD it.
Unless I put a similar feat into this book.. one that was better than the relatively poor Extra Spell feat. Not saying anything.. just moving along...
That would be Really nice especially if Bards can take it too and if the feat was equally useful to bards ;-)
You demand.. really?Also cake.
The cake is a lie.
I demand pie.And since we're rhyming and stuff
some marshmellow fluff.
Oh, since alcohol kills bacteria, beer might kill off the bacteria that causes ulcers.
There is malt is whisky too. Especially malt whisky...and there is more alcohol in whisky. :-)
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Ah, the joys of being a game designer active on the company forums.
Wait until the next preview and we see the GM Feat of "Electrocute Players".
Until that happens, perhaps we can engage JB with relatively polite questions.
I'm still buying some high-tension cables and wiring up the game table, though.
Postmonster was talking about the new feature he was working on for the forums that let him punch people in the face through the wire. Perhaps this is an offshoot of that research.
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So, let's look at this objectively for a minute.
I think as things stand right now, for most characters, one FC bonus option is clearly superior over another already. Between PFS and DM'ing, I've designed a whole lot of characters in the last year. Very few of those choose a mix of bonuses -- I'm either picking the skill point or HP, all-in. At most, an 80/20 split.
This usually follows (for me at least) class selections. I'm less likely to take skill points with a paladin or fighter -- they already are not going to be the skill-focused characters, a skill point here or there won't help much. Upping my hit points just makes me better in the area I'm already focused on. In fact, I'd argue that the +1 HP is already the far better option in almost all cases.
So... if, once the APG is out, there emerges a FC bonus that stands out as a typical "best choice" for some common situations (human sorcerer? Pick the extra spell most of the time), is that so bad? I'm not sure it alters the game that much.
So the argument that this becomes the dominant FC choice seems like a small matter at worst. Whether or not this unbalances the sorcerer as a class... I don't think that seems likely. Certainly, we already know other classes will get shiny things too. I already think extra spell picks for spontaneous casters aren't a bad option to offer. Bloodlines already do this for sorcerers, and in my game I'm considering adding more bonus spells via bloodlines (those would at least be spells I picked rather than the player cherry-picking the best options).
Getting an ulcerWalk away for a while, man. Don't let a few people over-reacting distract you. I think this preview is brilliant for its purpose -- it sure has people excited, right? I think most of us realize that we'll see the bigger picture as more previews come in.
Well, I'm excited. And sweet, sweet preview art.
Nothing in this preview is overpowered and it may even get people I game with to play something new for a change. Sorcerers almost never get played and human pc's are in the minority too, so maybe someone will actually put the two together and play one!
Oh, and not to target anyone in particular, but some of the comments in this thread make me think some posters here are used to gaming groups where the pc's are lucky to have anything better than +1 weapons and armor by the time they hit 10th level.
Ok, I'm really excited about this. Yes, the sorcerer favored class thing is better for them than a skill point or HP, generally (to me, anyway), but honestly sorcerers need something. The staggered casting is already a huge handicap for them (seriously, whoever initially thought that the naturally gifted casters should be behind the bookworm casters in getting their spells has a totally alien mindset to me), and this doesn't address that, but at least gives them some more options.
Now...for those of you arguing about Extra Spell, allow me to remind you that in the game where Extra Spell was a feat, they had their own version of Toughness. It gave exactly 3 HP. If you're going to compare the new sorcerer FC option to Extra Spell, you also have to compare the HP option to the old version of Toughness.
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Ok, I'm really excited about this. Yes, the sorcerer favored class thing is better for them than a skill point or HP, generally (to me, anyway), but honestly sorcerers need something. The staggered casting is already a huge handicap for them (seriously, whoever initially thought that the naturally gifted casters should be behind the bookworm casters in getting their spells has a totally alien mindset to me), and this doesn't address that, but at least gives them some more options.
The sorcerer getting a bit of a bump is ok with me. Overall adding exactly the previewed changes are a net positive for the game IMO.
My concerns are more abstract.
Is this representative of the sort of thing we'll see across the board in the book?
Is it appropriate to put a fix for a class in a supplemental book?
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The Sorcerer option seems good to me, but I haven't seen much of what other folks get, so perhaps I'll be equally impressed with their choices.
*If* I thought it was too much (and since no player in a game I've run or played in since 3.0 came out has been willing to play a Sorcerer, because of the lack of flexibility and delayed spell progression, I'm not sure if anything would be 'too much'), I would use the precedent of certain benefits requiring multiple levels worth of FC bonus to happen, like the +1/2 use of acid dart example, and require the Sorcerer to spend a number of FC 'trainings' equal to the level of the spell being learned.
So, if at 6th level, he wants to add an extra 3rd level Spell Known, he'll have to save up three levels worth of FC bonus to pay for it, and won't get that extra 3rd level Spell Known until 8th level.
I wonder if the Pathfinder Society registrations have had any effect on what classes may or may not be perceived to 'need love.' On the one hand, it would make sense that if one class is over-represented, it's 'perks' wouldn't need to be as sexy, while if another is under-represented, perhaps it could use a little something to jazz it up. On the other hand, this sort of thinking might be made of equal parts crazy and disastrous. Hard to say. :)
Getting an ulcer.
I just want to clear the air by saying that our more often than not disproportionally hysterical reactions to previews are simply the result of our love for the system and our wish for everything going absolutely tip-top for the new book. Everybody has his or her own idea as to what's best for the system so when opinions collide on something that we're so excited for the yelling begins. Keep up the good work and as I said earlier I think the preview looks great. Please don't get an ulcer.
(I still think that favored class bonus looks whack, yo.)
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I'm beginning to see a pattern to Jason's design philosophy. It's all about choices. Choose a class. Choose a favoured class bonus. Choose traits. Choose archetypes. Choose feats. Choose powers/talents/spells/bloodlines/schools/songs. Choice, choice choice. Sit there biting your pencil and ponder the choices, instead of going into a straightjacket of a class with everything premade. Or thinking which PrC will make your class workable.
I like it.
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Director of Game Design
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I'm beginning to see a pattern to Jason's design philosophy. It's all about choices. Choose a class. Choose a favoured class bonus. Choose traits. Choose archetypes. Choose feats. Choose powers/talents/spells/bloodlines/schools/songs. Choice, choice choice. Sit there biting your pencil and ponder the choices, instead of going into a straightjacket of a class with everything premade. Or thinking which PrC will make your class workable.
I like it.
I am a very big fan of choice when it comes to game design. It lets you play the game you want to play without impacting the way that I want to play.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
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I'm beginning to see a pattern to Jason's design philosophy. It's all about choices. Choose a class. Choose a favoured class bonus. Choose traits. Choose archetypes. Choose feats. Choose powers/talents/spells/bloodlines/schools/songs. Choice, choice choice. Sit there biting your pencil and ponder the choices, instead of going into a straightjacket of a class with everything premade. Or thinking which PrC will make your class workable.
I like it.
I am a very big fan of choice when it comes to game design. It lets you play the game you want to play without impacting the way that I want to play.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
How dare you let us play what we want! :)