Setting up the discussion thread.
Welcome to Session -1. The purpose of this session, prior to character creation, is to figure out what the six of you want for the initial arc of this story.
This does not have to be a 1-20 arc. It could be a single level, or more than one level, but it will give all of us a common jumping-off point for the start of the game.
The entire world is at your disposal. Pitch and chat about your ideas, and I will weigh in as well. I hope to have this done this week, but if it takes longer, we'll go until we have a consensus.
Hey there.
Thanks so much for the invite, GM Lia! I'll do my best not to make you regret your decision of including me.
As for ideas: What if we were to start off as people going to a borderland-ish location on the edge of an unknonwn frontier (Port City, Abandoned Fortress, Enchanted Village, Caverns recently uncovered) that has only recently been (re)discovered? We could be adventurers hired or volunteering to explore the unknown for one of the nearby kingdoms...in a region of Golarion that is completely new and relatively recently, open? Perhaps the region had been under a spell or lost to some horrible curse? A party of explorers could easily be made up of just about anybody.
Just a thought.
Honestly, I'm both excited and open to whatever we end up doing with this.
Game On, eh?
~ PD
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You don't have to throw the GM in front. Just Lia is fine :)
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Alrighty! There's a few borderlandsey locations that'd fit your idea, PD:
The obvious suggestion is Iobaria, right to the east of Brevoy (and the kingdom formerly known as the Stolen Lands). It's got cyclops ruins, haunted woodlands and isolated towns with weird belief systems, with a touch of a post-apocalyptic vibe thanks to the plagues that swept through the region in the past.
Another would be the Whistling Plains, which borders Taldor and Galt. Technically it's part of Taldor, but they've never really had the manpower or political will to enforce that claim, so the local nomads have mostly been left to do their own thing. But with Eutropia now in power, that may be changing, with a three-way power-struggle forming between her, one of the local nomadic leaders and the Duke of the neighboring province who has an alliance with the local centaurs and is one of Eutropia's political opponents. In short, this place could be a hotbed of conflict real soon!
There's also countless islands in the ruins of Old Azlant, and the southern parts of the Mwangi Expanse leading into places like Droon, the iruxi empire, and Holomog, south of Geb!
Thank you for the invite Lia, I appreciate the chance to give this a go.
Exploration of a newly opened (or found) location could be an interesting time. Both northern and southern edges of the map could be a lot of fun to explore. The idea I had originally had, a kholo wizard, would fit better in the south but ironically, kholo have been found near Sandpoint according to at least one source. Personally, I have love of the Varisian area and I know there are a bunch of ruins there but it is more populace than the other extremes. Both Hollow Mountain and Viperwall have potential.
A lost village or city in the Mwangi could also be a great location to look into. Possibly previously discovered but the old manuscript showing it’s location was lost for years, and just now rediscovered by some organization. Within the jungle there have been so many threats it would be hard to say if it was wiped out by demons or what. Perhaps the explorer who wrote the manuscript dies from some unknown curse (or it was made to look like a curse). Sorry, just building on the previous idea.
I also want to put it to the group about if we want to be members of an actual organization. The Pathfinders first come to mind since it is starting in Absalom. The Aspis as well (could be fun being the darker side of that coin). A few others I think would be fitting as patron organizations (not necessarily with all PCs being actual members) are Aldori Swordlords, Cyphermages, and the Lantern Bearers.
Last, while the idea I have had for a kholo wizard, that is just a rough thought at this point. I like the idea but haven’t invested much more into it at this point. I definitely could come up with something else.
Just a fun fact: I have never, despite this game's Name, played as an actual Pathfinder. LOL Maybe we set it up so at least one of us IS in the Pathfinder organization and that's where we get our lead for whatever trouble we get ourselves into?
Question for Lia: Is there anything that you specifically DON'T want to play or use? Species you would rather not see as characters, or storylines you dislike or are bored with seeing?
Odd thought, not related to anything listed above: Does Pathfinder have anything akin to Spell Jammer? (Not counting Starfinder, by the way. Fantasy spellships rather than tech stuff is what I'm asking about)
Tagging in!
Here is my weird idea of a character concept. I'd like to see if it flies before pitching in on the campaign ideas.
Myrp was a doll in the window of Master Glynn's toy shop. He'd been there for many years and generations of children had eagerly trod to the shop window to see how Myrp was dressed for the holiday.
Beloved by generations and revered by Master Glynn he was still... just a doll... until he wasn't.
Time finally caught up with the master Toy maker, and his heart gave out one night as he was dressing Myrp for the latest holiday. After decades of sitting in the window noticing nothing Myrp's eyes blinked, and he saw things around him. He was now aware.
Myrp is a "Ghost Poppet". I was thinking about perhaps being a Psychic since that is a class I've never played, and the spirit of Master Glynn might use his mental powers to do things... but class is still up for debate. If that's a little far out there I've got hundreds of other ideas.
After being a toymaker for years Master Glynn might be interested in seeing the world... and what better vehicle than through the eyes of his most treasured creation. I think it would be fun to RP the inner conflict between Myrp and Mr. Glynn, and the opportunities of a new beginning would fit in with any ideas. Perhaps one of the other PC's purchased him at a going out of business sale not knowing he was sentient. Perhaps Mr. Glynn had a son or daughter who resented the time Mr. Glynn spent doting over his toys instead of being a father and couldn't wait to get rid of the shop and especially that stupid Doll in the window.
Question for Lia: Is there anything that you specifically DON'T want to play or use? Species you would rather not see as characters, or storylines you dislike or are bored with seeing?
Lia, I definite feel this is an important question? While the sandbox idea is a great one, it is also important that we all consider your views as well. A GM should never have to run a game they won't enjoy.
Odd thought, not related to anything listed above: Does Pathfinder have anything akin to Spell Jammer? (Not counting Starfinder, by the way. Fantasy spellships rather than tech stuff is what I'm asking about)
I know there are the portals, but has there been anything official about non-sci-fi ships? Travelling via the portals could be a fun element of a game.
Odd thought, not related to anything listed above: Does Pathfinder have anything akin to Spell Jammer? (Not counting Starfinder, by the way. Fantasy spellships rather than tech stuff is what I'm asking about
The PF1E Pathfinder Campaign Setting: Distant Worlds. - and the Interplanetary Teleport spell to travel between planets.
The planets Verces and Trixus (particulary the Drakelands) are planets that I enjoyed the write-ups the most and think would make for interesting places for our characters to have some of our adventures on.
@Scranford.
I like the character concept!
I suggest possibly a summoner with a devotion phantom eidolon (who is the spirit of Master Glynn). If Lia decides to have us use the Free Archetype variant rule, taking summoner as the free archetype instead of Myrp's primary class could help (game mechanics-wise) to represent how the inner conflict between the two of them prevents them from having the Act Together class feature (which m/c summoners do not gain access to).
If you like the above suggestion, a bit of Master Glynn's spirit gave Myrp sapience, and in time Master Glynn's spirit appears before you (as the devotion phantom).
Are you thinking Myrp gained sapience during the most recent holiday or has there been additional holidays since Myrp gained sapience?
How does Myrp react to seeing other store window display areas that are done up with scenes similar to how Master Glynn used to arrange him.
I'll consider that. I was really thinking the relationship was more a Role-playing thing than a mechanical thing. I was thinking perhaps an Inventor if we get free archetype... since that's kind of what Master Glynn was.
Ghost Poppet
You awakened when a bit of another person's life force and a fragment of their soul-possibly, but not always, at the moment of their death-found its way into your constructed body. You don't remember anything more than vague flashes of your "before life," but that life essence still protects you. You gain resistance to negative damage equal to half your level (minimum 1).
Not sure on the timing of the thing yet. I guess it depends on where we start and the party makeup.
Since Myrp doesn't remember anything before his awakening he has no strong feelings on that. Almost everything he experiences is a mixture of newborn and grizzled old man.
This has been a great discussion so far.
Re PDs question: No, there are not. All PF ancestries are on the table, and I'm ok with any story concept. I'm still deciding on what, if any, SF2 elements I allow, but they would be more limited.
I'm loving a lot of what I'm seeing and the way you are already supporting each other's ideas.
We'll talk more about what is allowed for character options and sources once we get to Session 0.
I do want to say in advance, though, to play what inspires you. Don't stress about covering all party roles (though do make sure that at least one of you has some way to heal!), I've been DMing a long time, and as encounters will be handcrafted, I can make sure that if you were all wizards, for an unlikely example, you wouldn't run into zillions of fighters with reactive strike.
I do want to say in advance, though, to play what inspires you. Don't stress about covering all party roles (though do make sure that at least one of you has some way to heal!), I've been DMing a long time, and as encounters will be handcrafted, I can make sure that if you were all wizards, for an unlikely example, you wouldn't run into zillions of fighters with reactive strike.
So, just an observation, with clever ideas for protagonists like a were-dragon and a ghost poppet, it would seem that the initial lean would be towards characters that are not your run-of-the-mill adventurers. One might say that these people would likely'stand out in a crowd'. Accurate?
No judgement or issue with that. Sounds like fun.
Just thinking that if this is the entire group's lean, then perhaps we should keep that in mind in our initial arc.
Any character, no matter how strange, can be considered accepted over time, if the circumstances permit. Initially, however, mundane folks are not always that accomodating. That could determine some of our first moves here.
Just a thought. :D
And at any point, please feel free to tell me to knock it off and quit overthinking things. LOL Sometimes it just needs to be said.
Hello all and welcome!
Most of my posting will be at this time of day, so I may miss out on some important back and forth but will chime in when I can.
If the main arc of the story is "borderlands" and exploration or overland travel, I might suggest the the early part of the story, when the PCs are still pretty underpowered and fragile, is in a more controlled environment.
Perhaps there is a hook that leads to the overland travel like finding a map or a key or some other lost/missing/stolen thing that a) bands the group together and b) gives the newly minted group a reason to go to the border areas. Once you get a level or two under your belt, then overland travel and wilderness areas will be easier to survive. I think this is also true for interplanar or interstellar travels.
Some other details:
1)I am definitely for a good-aligned party. Don't all have to be that, but I think it makes motivation for adventuring to save the planet (or whatever) more believable.
2) Ever widening circles of area to explore with a heightening sense of danger and complication makes for the best campaign arcs long term. I would say have the end in mind before you get to the beginning and work backwards from there.
3) Think of the big arcs you see in movies, comics, novels etc. They usually start with small ripples and end up with big waves.
As a result of those things, some existential threat to the planet/country/region is how those arcs end, and we likely need thoughts about that, but the beginning starts with a simple thing like finding a lost sheep or trading a cow for some magic beans.
In addition, I would say, I prefer, to the extent it can be created, the sense of mystery and discovery in unwrapping layers of a problem whether they are increasing levels of a complex conspiracy, finding a series of objects or locations, or similarly following threads over time rather than just a straightforward slug it out scenario.
With the sandbox concept, there will be plenty of exit ramps for the story to go off on tangents, but the GM (good luck!) always finding a way to bring it back on the beam eventually.
I am curious to hear ideas the group may have for great big world-changing arcs to work backwards from.
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I haven't thought of much in the way of big arcs but one thought just struck me. A "borderlands" area with LOTS of unexplored places? Sounds like the Darklands to me. While I don't necessarily think it's a good idea to start the game exploring the darklands, as I agree with DoctorEvil that small scale works best for the first few levels. Perhaps lost village or town is discovered, a small location to be explored and studied, but it becomes more and more clear the party isn't necessarily alone. And after the first mystery is solved it leads the party to a newly discovered entrance to the Darklands.
While typing this out, it struck me with an idea about what could be the big plot. Deep in the ground a egg is found. Maybe large (like massive, so what is inside is massive) or maybe small (but not like chicken egg small, like large flightless bird large egg). One of the many Darkland societies has a legend about the egg and it's hatching.
Also, sorry, this is how my ideas sometime come. As I type things dawn on me and I put them down for later. Since this is a group thing, maybe something here will spark something in someone else.
I like the Darklands idea -- it has many directions it can go. And the PCs being Darklands experts/denizens/explorers is maybe a good way to form a group.
For a big arc, I kind of like the idea of fighting an archfiend (demon/devil etc) set on conquest, especially if that involves traveling to some part of the Abyss (or Hell) and taking the fight to them. The ever pervasive evil of those outsiders creates lots of plot hooks to capture/conquer/rule/destroy civilization. Some of those could be triggered from a Darklands incursion or exploration of other more remote parts of Golarion. Could easily be an arch-fey or similar high-powered BBEG.
Just a thought.
PS No bad ideas in brainstorming. Only ideas you don't share, and if they come to you mid-paragraph, at least they came to you. I like the free flow of ideas. Keep them coming!
I'm catching up on the discussion and will make some real comments :)
PDs initial idea is rather interesting, though I'm not 100 percent sure that novice adventurers would be hired to explore a place just uncovered. That does not mean it's impossible at all, that it just seems like it would be more mid-level of a thing to me at the moment.
But, a place like that could easily have been brought back to light by some creature being affected by the Godsrain and going on a little off-screen rampage that exposed the location. But, that said, low-level could be getting there.
I really like Drake's ideas of meshing the eidolon into the plot. It gives us all a lot of options, and would feel very different from the summoner/eidolon in my offline Shattered Star (converted to PF2) game that's about to enter Book 5. Summoner is a very interesting class in PF2.
re: Zousha's initial ideas for where that undercovered area could be. Both could easily work. I'd have to read up on Iobarria, but there is a Wiki for that, and I think Taldor will be keeping an eye on the Andoran-Cheliax war and so might have even less focus on the Whispering Plains.
The Expanse is another good option, as are the islands near Azlant, and Holomog could get hot if the Impossible Book next year kicks off a new Geb vs Nex conflict.
All of those suggestions give us a lot of options!!
When it comes to Organizations, I'm fine with people starting as lower-end members of any of them with two caveats: First, the group has to be ok with that faction. Like, if someone wants to be a Hellknight, everyone would have to be cool with it. Secondly, there would have to be a really good reason to have a Pathfinder and a member of Aspis in the same group.
Also, organization-based feats will be locked to members of that group. If you want, for example, a Firebrand feat, you'll either have to start as one or earn your way into it, and that goes for regional locked archetypes as well. I'm fine with the characters coming from anywhere. If you want to go into Blackjacket from Shining Kingdoms, for example, just decide that your character is from Druma. I think the regional stuff makes Golarion feel more alive and helps shape characters, since there can be a benefit for being from one place or another.
I can see the group going into the Darklands at some point, but as others have said, not at very low level. I don't want to TPK you out of the gate!! (Or, really, at all).
It feels like we're closing in on the initial hook. The group is travelling somewhere to explore a place that was recently uncovered and/or rediscovered. We're making pretty good progress for just a day!
With all this talk of exploration, and the hints towards fiends and deviltry, I'm getting the beginings of a character in mind. A Tiefling Ranger or perhaps Druid. A wandering scout, due to necessity as much as desire, with aims to help lead our intrepid heroes to...well, whatever interesting places they need to find.
I know next to nothing else about him yet, more of an image in my mind, but I figured I'd toss this out there.
Edit: Or rather, a Human with a Nephilim Heritage, I'm learning. Tieflings as an ancestry are exclusive to D&D apparently. Same thing, different name, I suppose. Perhaps "Tiefling" could be a disparaging slang word people use sometimes.
Perhaps in line with the exploration an unusual Aiudara (Elf Gate) has been uncovered, and some organization is looking for groups to see where it goes. Or perhaps an individual... or even a member of this group finds this gate. This one could have some subtle differences from the others known at this time... and may not be the only aberrant Aiudara.
Where do these gates go... and what lies on the other side? What strange items or artifacts are associated with these gates? Who built them and why?
Oooh, I really like that. And with Lia's idea that our initial arc would be the 'getting to it' sort of thing.
I'm more than ok with us being a good-aligned group, personally. I usually require "No Evil Characters" when I DM.
I'm in favor of a "Good" aligned group... though one of the things I like about PF2e is the elimination of alignment. I would think as a group we could come up with Edicts and Anathemas that fit what we're trying to accomplish.
Perhaps some of us are in an organization and some not. This would give us a chance to hear the "Recruiting Pitch" and decide which organization aligned with our values more.
Master Glynn was definitely benevolent. He tolerated the neighborhood children hanging out in his toy shop and often spent evenings working to repair their trying out toys "Accidents". Deep inside providing for these children without being close to him substituted for his difficulty in relating to his own children. He was always known to keep a drawer of sweet treats behind the counter... and often took in stray cats. In fact, he had about a dozen cats in the shop when he died... but nobody has seen them since he passed.
The idea of a good-aligned group doesn't have to tie into the old alignment system; you can just see it more along the lines of just being heroic.
I don't think any aiudara would be right away things. It could be a good way to transition from the first arc to the second as the group levels. Something like:
Levels 1 - 2 Travel somewhere from Absalom.
Level 2- 3/4 Explore uncovered something, along the way, find a strange elf gate, and go through.
Level 4-6 Explore a new place - perhaps not even on Golarion - and maybe start to find hints of a more serious threat, *and* look for a new elf gate to get back!
This is just a maybe outline. Nothing is set in stone yet!
Also, PD, a nephalim is not limited to human base ancestry. Any ancestry can take the nephalim versatile heritage.
1. In stone or not, THAT is a great game plan.
2. Awesome, and thanks for the heads up, Lia.
Perhaps in line with the exploration an unusual Aiudara (Elf Gate) has been uncovered, and some organization is looking for groups to see where it goes. Or perhaps an individual... or even a member of this group finds this gate. This one could have some subtle differences from the others known at this time... and may not be the only aberrant Aiudara.
Where do these gates go... and what lies on the other side? What strange items or artifacts are associated with these gates? Who built them and why?
Building on this a bit. What if some kind of fiendish cult found a gate in one of these out of the way areas and were working towards corrupting it to bring some kind of apocalypse to Golarion. I’m partial to daemons right now and plan to work an idea I had into one of my own campaigns, but I feel any of them would work well. This would be “big arc” level stuff I feel, and not the initial point. It also could build off some of the story beats from other APs involving the portals.
I'm in favor of a "Good" aligned group... though one of the things I like about PF2e is the elimination of alignment. I would think as a group we could come up with Edicts and Anathemas that fit what we're trying to accomplish.
As for organizations, I feel leaning into a more “good” or “neutral” aligned one would be better. Depending on the character idea, I feel both Aspis and Hellknights could work. I will also point out as a patron organization, the Lion Blades could be a very interesting concept. I’m about to finish a War for the Crown campaign and I’ve had some interesting connections develop there. Just don’t drink the tea!
I'm more than ok with us being a good-aligned group, personally. I usually require "No Evil Characters" when I DM.
With limited exceptions, I tend to avoid “evil” characters in general for PCs. I prefer my fantasies to be more traditionally heroic than villainous. So far, most of my ideas have been “good” or at least opposed to “evil” in theory. And speaking of ideas, I have an idea for a bard or thaumaturge that is basically a book worm/”naturalist” who wants to learn about all the monsters and constantly makes notes. I’d have questions for Lia about how she plans to handle recall knowledge checks for this build.
Wish lists for magic items are always great. I think it's a little less needed than in other d20 games due to the rune system and swapping runes between items. Not only do you no longer need to have every other boss be using the rare weapon type the fighter wants to use, but unlike any other d20 system I've seen you can do the 'person comes home, finds home burnt down, grabs relatives sword/axe/pitchfork/whatever off the wall and goes out to seek vengence - and can still be using that at level 20 and not have sold it at level 2 after upgrading to a +1.
And, yes, that is one character concept I want to run in this system :)
However, no matter where I take you, there will be chances to get items in many ways, so don't feel you need to do one.
If you do, though, put it in the character profile so I can easily access it to memory jog!
As for Recall Knowledge, I'm a big fan of it. The way I do it in PbP (and offline) is to let the player roll. For PbP, I'll apply the specific skill you need, but in general, I keep the dice in the players' hands as much as possible. You can also attach questions to your roll, and if you don't, I'll just give you info.
Can that lead to metagaming? Sure. But I don't see that as a horrible thing.
I'll get into other dice rolling things as we roll into session 0.
At this point, it seems like we have a solid initial idea. While these things can still be discussed, more ideas are always welcome, it's time to advance to:
Session Zero!
If there are any themes you do not want to see in the game, please bring them up. I'm fine with basically anything.
What is open to you?
All Paizo non-optional published options. Uncommon and Rare things need my ok, but I'm pretty liberal on allowing things like that.
Everything from Team+ is available for 3PP, assuming you own the book you want an option from. I have all the Team+ books, and while there might sometimes be something I'd modify a little, they make excellent and balanced material. Again, uncommon and rare are check with me.
I'm going to leave SF2 options off the board for now. I may introduce some of the spells as loot during the game, and Alien Core monsters may very well make an appearance. I love monster books :)
What about PF2 optionals?
No Mythic or Dual Class. I don't think anyone was expecting those to be on the table, but I might as well bring them up.
Ancestral Paragon: I love this rule, personally. I was bummed they pulled it out of PF GM Core, and I am elated they brought it back in SF GM Core. This is up for a vote. If 4 or more of you want it, it's in, and if you don't, it's not.
Now, for the big one, and this one is up for discussion.
Free Archetype.
One of the things I love most about PF2 is the Archetype system. I think it makes so many very creative character-building options come to life, and I'm someone who, when I build a character, wants to let the events of the story shape the character build, even when that is not optimal.
Another thing I really like is that PF2 levelling makes you make choices. Do I take X or Y?
FA is a good system. It allows for more character flexibility, and that is good, but it takes that hard decision-making and tosses it out the window. On top of that, many players use it just for Multi-class dedications, or one of a select few Core rulebook ones (Blessed One, Medic, Sentinel, Wrestler, etc).
Now, I understand why people go for MCD. We have about 50 years in the hobby of multi-classing in that way, and what, 5, of 'multi-classing' in the archetype system, but I think it leaves a lot of creative build options ignored in favor of the easy or normal, so to speak, ways to build characters.
So, I'm torn here. This is already clearly a good group that thinks about a lot of things, and I don't want to hinder creativity.
On the other hand, FA with MCDs tends to strip the choice from levelling. 'I get X and Y' is much different from 'I get X or Y'.
I'm pondering a few options:
1) No FA.
2) Unlimited FA.
3) FA, but for non-MCDs only, so if you wanted to MCD, you'd need to use class feats.
There may be other options, and I'm opening it for discussion and your ideas. It can be a very important part of character planning, so I want to get feedback from the group.
If any of you have questions about my GM style, please feel free to ask.
FA is a good system. It allows for more character flexibility, and that is good, but it takes that hard decision-making and tosses it out the window. On top of that, many players use it just for Multi-class dedications, or one of a select few Core rulebook ones (Blessed One, Medic, Sentinel, Wrestler, etc).
I am working, so I will need to post more later, but I wanted to chime in on this one first. I also am a fan of FA and I have often used it with and without limits. One limit I have used is just multiclass but I have never thought of limiting the opposite. I am intrigued but the concept and I hadn't considered it.
I will present one other thing that I have found limiting when adding these restrictions, and that is the limit of taking additional dedication feats. I have said that if someone wants to use their class levels to take a second dedication, that restriction is waved. As I said, I've never limited to non-multiclass, so that may not be an issue at all (and to be honest, it's usually not an issue anyways). Just my two cents. Nothing in my concepts should present a problem either way.
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Session Zero!
Yay!
If there are any themes you do not want to see in the game, please bring them up. I'm fine with basically anything.
I wouldn't say I have any real "dealbreakers" in this regard, but I understand and respect that other players will and have no problem avoiding such in play. I imagine "veiling" or "fading to black" in obviously sexual situations will help make everyone more comfortable, at least in my personal experience.
What is open to you?
As with the previous answer, since I don't really have any themes I don't want to see I don't really have any I specifically want to see either. I might be intrigued by romance, but won't go out of my way to seek it myself. If my PC DOES click with an NPC, that's fun! If that never happens, also fun! And I feel that romantic entanglements between PCs is obviously something to be discussed OOC before commenced in game, to avoid crossing boundaries.
All Paizo non-optional published options. Uncommon and Rare things need my ok, but I'm pretty liberal on allowing things like that.
Nice!
Everything from Team+ is available for 3PP, assuming you own the book you want an option from. I have all the Team+ books, and while there might sometimes be something I'd modify a little, they make excellent and balanced material. Again, uncommon and rare are check with me.
I'll keep that in mind. I have a concept that is INSPIRED by one of the Denominations in Clerics+, though it doesn't necessarily NEED the actual rules to work. Long story short, kobold cleric who worships Apsu and Iomedae via the Syncretism Feat and specifically believes in the Wyrmknight interpretation of Iomedae. :3
I'm going to leave SF2 options off the board for now. I may introduce some of the spells as loot during the game, and Alien Core monsters may very well make an appearance. I love monster books :)
Neat-o-beans!
What about PF2 optionals?
No Mythic or Dual Class. I don't think anyone was expecting those to be on the table, but I might as well bring them up.
Yeah, I've got no interest in these.
Ancestral Paragon: I love this rule, personally. I was bummed they pulled it out of PF GM Core, and I am elated they brought it back in SF GM Core. This is up for a vote. If 4 or more of you want it, it's in, and if you don't, it's not.
I don't mind it. If the other players want it, I'm cool with it.
Now, for the big one, and this one is up for discussion.
Free Archetype.
As with Ancestral Paragon, I've got no strong feelings for or against it, especially given its popularity it might as well be an unofficial rule at this point. I've literally played in more PF2 games WITH Free Archetype than without. And I personally don't really have a character in mind that would DEPEND on it to work.
In no particular order, as I am also occupied, but want to toss in my two coppers:
1. Agreed on what's not desirable, subject-wise. Commenting that something happened off screen in the past by the GM is fine with me, I'm an adult and the world can seem harsh, as can the evil actions of the bad-guys, but like Drake said, not stuff IN-game.
2. Ancestry Paragon: Honestly, I'm neutral on this. I've never seen it employed in a game, so I'm open to it if everyone else wants it. Could be cool.
3. I'm a fan of Free Archetypes as well, but I understand that it can sometimes feel like it's hindering good roleplay/storytelling in the place of powergaming. I'd like to keep it, since it can definitely help to customize characters so they're not cardboard cut-outs, but am fine with not, if Lia isn't comfortable with it. Maybe limiting which classes can have dedication based on what each specific character is playing? I like Drake's suggestion on this.
4. Fine without SF2 stuff. We all have more than enough to work with, I'm sure. That said, agreed, monster books are awesome.
5. Lia's style: How much discussion do you prefer between you and each particular player in planning their character goals and whatnot? Do you prefer messages back and forth or do you like being surprised in-game?
6. Something not mentioned above, but it's an in-house statement that we've always used as a guide in our home games when gauging whether something was "broken" or powergaming in nature. "If YOU can do it...if the party members can do it...then the NPCs and Bad Guys can do it."
Seemed to help keep people from over-reaching too much. NOT that I'm saying that anyone here is guilty of it. LOL
As an aside, APZ, I like the Kobald idea. :D
~ PD
Just a heads up, I think I mentioned this in the Recruitment, but just want to make sure you guys are aware, I have limited experience with PF2. I've played a lot of PF1 and 5e, but this edition, not so much. Pathbuilder definitely helps out. So in case I make dumb, obvious mistakes here or there, feel free to point them out. I don't bruise easy, but I will learn. ;)
Answers and comments!
Drake:
Dragonblood is fine, as are all versatile heritages, and I can't think of any ancestries I'd say no to.
Exemplar is also fine as a class or MCD, assuming it fits the character story. I personally feel that the 'OMG broken' discourse over the MCD is overblown. Yes, it does give a slight damage bump to a character. It also has a significant action cost if you have to use the Transcendence since there is no other Ikon (and I really wish they'd just used Icon) to shift the spark into.
Gradual Ability Boost is a lovely optional rule, but it adds a ton of bookkeeping, which can be hard to track in PbP. However, as I had forgotten about it, we can put that up for a vote as well.
@J Scot:
I would not remove the 'you must take two more feats before a new dedication' for two reasons:
1. Narrative. It's not impossible, but I think it's difficult to come up with story reasons why a person is so good at so many things.
2. Mechanical. There are a lot of front-loaded Dedications. If you remove that restriction, you could make something like:
Level 2: Rogue Dedication for 2 skills and more. It's one of the stronger dedications.
Level 4: Exemplar for Ikon+Damage Boost.
Level 6/8/10: Champion for Heavy Armor, a feat, and Champ Reaction.
Level 12: Acrobat for trained to instant Master acrobatics and a free scale to Legend at 15.
I'm not saying anyone in this group would leverage the system like that. In fact, I think just the opposite, but I like the guard rail against it that Paizo put into place.
@AZ:
That is one insanely cool concept for the Apsu/Iomadae cleric!
@PD:
In reverse order, everyone makes mistakes. We've got a ton of GMs in the group, I'm sure that if there are mistakes or questions, we can handle them :)
I do tend to think the way you do in that bad guys can do the same things as PCs do, though not right away. If something is quasi-broken, which IMO is hard in this system, it's best to say 'That was cool' the first time, but if it takes away fun or challenge, talk to the player, and if it continues, use it against players.
As for communication, I am huge on it. It can be open, it can be PM, whatever someone likes. If it's for hooks or things, well, I'd need to know in order to incorporate them, but I don't mind characters just doing things.
On that note, I adore feedback. Good and bad. I can't get better at GMing for a given group, as every one is different, if people don't tell me what I am doing well or poorly. This goes especially if you think I've made a mistake. Tell me, so I can learn, if I did, and you can, if I didn't.
OK< now to chime in on the rest.
All of the options are great and I feel like they are workable. And I also 100% agree with the themes that people wish to be left out. I have nothing else to add to those personally, but I respect those requests.
As for Ancestral Paragon, I have only seen it once and that was very short lived. I have never used it as a GM but I am interested in seeing it out more. Count me in as a yes for it.
Obviously, I also give a thumbs up to the Free Archetype. And I get your concerns about the restrictions and the removing of them. I don't want to derail the thread here but perhaps I can explain it at a later date better. Needless to say, I respect the decision 100%. (Also, as I mentioned, my concept has no need for multiple archetypes as of now.)
Speaking of the concept, the idea I have is for basically a bookworm bard. He is a Nephilim Tengu Enigma Bard. He's a monster nerd basically who focuses on what he knows about the various monsters he's encountering, and making notes on things he learns. I plan on sharing a document I make of all his notes (a simple doctored up word file basically) as an in character prop of sorts.
Mechanically, he's likely a good support. Might have some healing, definitely some magic, but other than that not much weapon attachs. A lot of his strength will come from making recall knowledge checks I hope. This isn't set in stone as I haven't done anything to actually fill it out, but it's a character I am excited for.
Answers to Drake:
Yes, you can use Class Feats to take extra archetype feats, but you cannot use Archetype Feats to take class feats.
Yes, if you have two archetypes, even if you took the second dedication with class feats, you can use FA feats to take feats from either one.
Assuming we go with FA, which I am still undecided on, and want to give everyone a chance to weigh in on before deciding.
@J Scot:
It's a really fun-sounding concept, and bards are an awesome class in 2E. I really think the group is coming up with a lot of interesting concepts.
I like Free Archetypes and Ancestral Paragon. I think they help flesh out what you want your character to be / do without waiting a bunch of levels to get there.
I'll post more after my in-person game tonight or in the morning.
I am 100% agnostic on build rules. I am not a player who thrives over exotic character build ideas or unique concepts but would rather play the story even with a plain vanilla character. Will not make an OP or min/maxxed PC either. Boring, I know...
I have seen Free Archetype work to build diversity/flexibility among the group, especially if you have a smaller table. I am not sure its needed with 6 (or more) players exactly.
Not a big fan of Ancestral Paragon, but won't mind if we move forward with it.
I don't have any particular playability concerns, or have never been in a situation where that was too uncomfortable. If something gets to that point, I will say something, but don't expect it.
I am perfectly fine filling a role after others have chosen class and function. My favorite class to play is likely bard, rogue or other skill monkey type. But am utterly flexible.