If I'm reading the rules correctly, every 5 ranks in a skill gives me a +1 if I'm also using my character action as well as a standard action on a domain turn.
Only my ranks matter and they matter much less than in 3.5 due to the different way class skills are handled.
Elton, are you planning on changing this in any way?
It would work with skill bonuses. Every +5 bonus in a skill gives you a +5 bonus if you also using your character action as well as a standard action on a domain turn.
Could I suggest that we start with a Domain Turn? Get at least one under our belt so we (especially us newbies) can see how it actually plays out.
We can start with a domain turn.
After discussing the bonuses to the Diplomacy domain action and that of other actions with Osprey; I have decided that you gain a domain action bonus of +1 for every +10 bonus you have with the associated skill. For this means, a +10 bonus in the Diplomacy skill grants you a +1 bonus to the Diplomacy action.
So definitely not something anyone is going to get right away since at 1st-Level your max Rank = 1 and your Max bonus is 3 + 5 (assuming that it is a Class Skill and you have a +5 Modifier from your Charisma score).
Thus the most you will have at 1st-Level is a 9 and you will not get a 10 until at least 2nd-Level but most likely not for a few more levels beyond that. This then greatly penalizes folks that do not have it as a Class Skill.
When you look at Pathfinder 1e it goes off the number of Ranks that you have in a Skill with every 5 Ranks in a skill giving you a up tick in what you can do with that skill (if you have that benefit available to you).
Still I am not sure how beneficial a +1 is to a Realm Diplomacy Action but it did not see all that overly significant from what I had seen thus far.
It would have been nice to see that discussion you all had.
Now granted I like the idea of it based off of the total Skill as this means folks that emphasize that Skill will get a greater bonus from it. So why 10 and why not 7 or some other value?
Or perhaps a better question to ask is what do you feel is the maximum theoretical bonus one should get from their skill as that would greatly help determine what that number ought to be. For instance if you felt the maximum bonus ought to be a +5 that would mean with your plan one would need a skill of +50 which is pretty phenomenal and frankly kind of obsurd IMO.
Now granted I like the idea of it based off of the total Skill as this means folks that emphasize that Skill will get a greater bonus from it. So why 10 and why not 7 or some other value?
Because the Diplomacy action and other actions are normally DC 10 through 20 to effect. They don't go any higher than that.
Ah okay that makes sense then -- thanks for the explanation.
As Elton mentioned, most domain actions are DC 10 to 20.
With almost all domain actions you can spend RP and sometimes GB to add +1 to the action for each RP or GB spent. That means by spending some extra domain resources you can make almost any domain action succeed on a 2+ (assuming that a roll of 1 always fails). This was the standard mechanic for ensuring or improving odds of success in 2e Birthright. The optional non-weapon proficiency rules in the BR Rulebook occasionally added to this chance, and a Court would improve your roll on Diplomacy actions, but that was about it.
The BRCS added a small extra bonus for a regent or their Lt.'s skill when they personally oversee the action (+1 per 5 ranks in the key skill in the BRCS, which we are changing to +1 per +10 total bonus for Pathfinder...which may actually work out pretty similarly in the longer game, with potential to be much higher in Pathfinder at the higher levels when we start being able to make magic items that enhance both skills and ability scores - something that had no effect in the BRCS or in 2e despite the apparent logic that it ought to matter...).
So in this system the domain actions are actually a little easier to succeed at in most cases than in the original domain game. And as I understand the rules, when you do a Realm Action where you target multiple holdings with one domain action, this bonus can be applied to each action roll in the action, multiplying your RP/GB savings from your expertise.
2nd: There are also Feats that improve a regent's domain action bonuses in the BRCS that will translate to Pathfinder pretty readily, and may even be slightly better at higher levels (like feats where one or two +2 skill bonuses can each become a +4 skill bonus at 10 ranks in that skill).
Some prime examples of feats boosting domain actions from BRCS Chapter 1:
Regent Focus (choose one domain action): grants a +4 domain action bonus to the chosen specialty.
Master Administrator: +2 to Create/Rule/Contest Province/Holdings, and +2 to the Administrate skill. It also makes domain maintenance way easier to save on, making it easily the best regent feat in the game.
Master Merchant: +2 Diplomacy and Appraise skills, and +2 to all domain-level trade and finance actions.
Master Diplomat: +2 Diplomacy skill and Diplomacy-based domain actions.
Great Leader: You gain a +2 bonus on all Lead checks,
and on domain-level actions that gain a bonus from the Lead skill. These include Agitate, Coronation, Investiture, and Create, Contest, and Rule Law Holdings. You gain a +2 bonus to your leadership score.
Master of the Arcane: +2 Create Ley Lines, +2 K/Arcana and Spellcraft skills, and +2 maximum realm spells that can be learned.
Plus Skill Focus in key domain skills can be taken (+3 skill. +6 at 10 ranks), and several other BRCS feats grant bonuses to key regent skills.
Think of every bonus +1 you get from skills and feats as 1 RP or GB you do not have to spend on each domain action (times the number of target holdings in Realm Actions) where the bonus applies.
Considered in this light I hope you can understand why being a little more conservative with the skill bonuses is a wise decision for game balance.
Also consider that Elton is wanting to run a long campaign spanning many levels of character progression, so the rules should strive to be balanced for 20 levels of play - not just the first 5 or so. Try to consider how the bonuses will look through that entire progression when you are judging game balance.
And finally remember: whatever rules apply to you apply to all the NPC regents too!
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The DCs (at least many of them) are something like 10+level of <whatever> so there is considerable scaling inherent in the system. Its easy to get started but more and more difficult to go up from there.
But I have no clue at all how valuable RP are in practice and how many I'll have :-). I think (but I could be very easily wrong) that the system is kinda set up so that you fairly rapidly get a kingdom more or less in tune with your Resource score but it is harder and harder to expand it from there. Is that essentially correct?
The DCs (at least many of them) are something like 10+level of <whatever> so there is considerable scaling inherent in the system. Its easy to get started but more and more difficult to go up from there.
But I have no clue at all how valuable RP are in practice and how many I'll have :-). I think (but I could be very easily wrong) that the system is kinda set up so that you fairly rapidly get a kingdom more or less in tune with your Resource score but it is harder and harder to expand it from there. Is that essentially correct?
So to the first part, yes: low-level stuff is easier to rule up than high-level stuff. But early on you might have more potentially hostile regents in your domain who might oppose your actions, too - and that can make things way harder than just a straight roll as they spend resources, use their holding levels to oppose you or support other regents in the provinces you are in, or run domain actions against you.
RP: Collection is based on the higher of either your Domain Power (the total RP you can potentially collect based on your total levels of provinces + holdings from which your class can collect) or your Bloodline Score.
So if you are playing a Cleric, that would be full RP collected from Land and Temple levels + 1/2 RP from Law holdings.
(Example Only) So if you as a Cleric Regent of Elinie have 30 levels of Provinces, 18 levels of Law, and 18 levels of Temples, your domain power os (30+9+18) = 57, which means you can potentially collect 57 RP per season if your bloodline score is high enough to take advantage of it.
If you have a bloodline score of 36, then you'll only collect 36 RP per season (3 months) until you can raise your bloodline score through saving up enough RP and spend 37 RP to raise it by one (up to a maximum of twice per year).
You can store RP up to twice your Bloodline Score.
PS - Also keep in mind that Elton has added 2e-style RP costs back into Domain Actions. So assume that every Domain Action has a base cost of at least 1 RP - or 1 RP per holding target level of the action when Ruling or Contesting holdings.
Elton - Am I correct that as a Source holder, and not maintaining a Court, that I can't use the Rule Action as a Realm Action?
A1. You can use it (and create holding) as a standard action.
Also, what's this rule about Spellcraft affecting my Domain Actions?
It makes sense to use Spellcraft as the skill for a domain action based on a Source.
Elton - Am I correct that as a Source holder, and not maintaining a Court, that I can't use the Rule Action as a Realm Action?A1. You can use it (and create holding) as a standard action.A Realm Action applies to multiple holdings at once. I gather that without any Court, I can't do this, right?
But to do what? There is nothing in the BRCS document (or the supplemental rules document) that tells me what this skill will do, so I am wanting clarification on that. We're due to start like tomorrow, or Monday, so I am wanting to get this sorted out.Also, what's this rule about Spellcraft affecting my Domain Actions?It makes sense to use Spellcraft as the skill for a domain action based on a Source.
Spellcraft works best with Source holdings rather than Administrate. If you are a source regent and you want to work with your sources with domain actions, you use the skill Spellcraft to administrate those holdings.
A Realm Action applies to multiple holdings at once. I gather that without any Court, I can't do this, right?
Right, you can't do it without a court. You have the option to set up a court if you don't have one, but it's best to do that when you have a realm to rule.
Elton:
Re. mages and realm actions:
Considering that mage regents (and all other types too) could freely do Realm Actions in the 2e rules, and that now in the BRCS it requires Court Actions but every other regent type has guaranteed income to sustain a Court, might it not make sense to make a separate rule for wizards and their ability to rule or contest multiple sources at once in a realm? Without some inexpensive capability to do this, it becomes one more way source regents are severely penalized in their ability to control and grow their source domains compared to all other regent types. Here's a few options that have been discussed in the BR.net forums on this topic, which has comes up more than once.
1. 2e version: Simply allow wizards to do realm actions with sources within the same realm as per the original rules. For a BRCS game, only sources would be allowed to bypass the need for a court, not other holding types.
2. As 2e, but any additional sources being ruled must be connected by ley lines to every other source being affected by the realm action. This is a pretty difficult requirement, and would make realm actions with sources quite rare except in very heavily networked source domains.
3. Allow each blooded mage Lieutenant of the source regent to count as a virtual Court Action for the purposes of source realm actions in a single realm. Thus it is arcane protoges rather than administrative bureaucracies that extend a mage regent's reach and control over their source domain. This was the "Arcane Court" idea I had posted a couple pages back.
FWIW My experience running mage regents as a PC and NPC is that everything takes more time as a source regent than other types, and your realm grows so much more slowly - and it can be tedious and frustrating, especially when other PCs are growing by multiples while you plod along.
It's not just lack of realm actions. Each ley line you build is another month.
As a wizard, you need a lot of time to research and learn regular spells.
Any artificing takes a lot of time as well.
Casting a realm spell takes a month.
Each realm spell you research takes 1 month per level (though this is 3.0 BRCS rule that was never examined for 3.5).
Suggestion: I made realm spell research take 1 month per 3 levels or fraction thereof.
So level 1-3: 1 month, Level 4-6: 2 months, Level 7-9: 3 months
Would that be doable?
And there is the time needed to do any other domain action (like Diplomacy), adventure, or other character action.
Mages seem to need ten times the time other regents do to become significant. And while that may sound cool or reasonable from a storybook perspective (which always assumes all mages live longer than normal people...which isn't actually true in D&D) - it's really not very fun or balanced in an actual domain game.
Do you want 1 month/action, or 3?
1 month per action. Not 3.
How do I know what I start with in my domain (if anything). Elinie lists no fortifications, armies, roads, court, etc. But presumably it has at least some of these already, it was a functioning kingdom before I took it over.
You start with 15 GB. And around 30 RP.
You have an army of 10 troops:
2 units of Anuirean Knights.
4 units of Anuirean Infantry.
1 unit of Irregulars.
3 units of Anuirean archers.
Elinie has two castles. One in Ansien (your capital), and one in Sendouras.
He’ll need to know the levels of those castles, so he can calculate the maintenance on them.
Right. Just one second . . .
Okay, Ansien Castle is level 4.
Sendouras Castle is level 3.
Should we reserve an Adventure Action so that are characters can go on the presumably adventure(s) that we are going to going on once the Domain Turn has been completed?
Oh and let me also introduce you all to Temüjin of the Borjigin of Coeranys.
I will also introduce to your adventuring comrade Blade known to many as the Dark Vengence.
So if the NPC Guilders all have a couple of trade routes each, I think we need to know ASAP:
1. Where all the existing Highways for them will be on the map.
2. Who is paying to maintain those highways?
3. Are the guilders currently paying tribute to landed regents whose lands they trade in/through? If so, how much?
Traditionally in Birthright, landed regents would maintain and control the highways through their lands - partly as a means of demanding some share of trade route profits, and most especially for military use in times of war (most armies move way faster on highways, especially though rougher terrain, but only so long as the road owner is controller or ally of the army's regent). Generally the tribute should at least cover road maintenance costs, and in my experience most regents would want a little net profit beyond that (but sometimes, with lower-value routes, it is enough to pay for the roads).
According to the Baruk-Azhik domain description in RoE, BA has 3 trade routes: 1 to Sielwode, 1 to Ruorven in Coeranys, and 1 to Bevaldruor, the capital in Mhoried.
The routes to Coeranys and Mhoried are very important features for our campaign.
The one to Mhoried would run through Coeranys, Elinie, and Mhoried.
To what is the "Level" referring? The level of Source needed to cast the spell?*Realm Spell Research Time
Level 1-3: 1 month
Level 4-6: 2 months
Level 7-9: 3 months*Changed by DM from the BRCS rules.
The level of the spell, I believe.
All spellcasters have a limit to the number of realm spells that they may know. An arcane spellcaster may learn a number of arcane realm spells equal to the number of ranks that they possess in Knowledge (Arcana). Likewise, a divine spellcaster may learn a number of divine realm spells equal to the number of ranks that they possess in Knowledge (religion). Realm spells do not count against the "maximum spells known" for sorcerers or other spell casters that have such a limit.Ok, so with the difference in "Ranks" issue from 3.0 to Pathfinder, is this then K(arcana/religion) ranks +3?
Yes.
I should also roll my starting spells
Realm Spells don't have "levels" they have "minimum caster levels" instead. These minimum caster levels go like all the way up to 16, at both odd and even levels, and both Sorcerers and Wizards would get the spells at the same time, whereas "normal" spells are picked up by Sorcerers 1 level later than Wizards.The level of the spell, I believe.To what is the "Level" referring? The level of Source needed to cast the spell?*Realm Spell Research Time
Level 1-3: 1 month
Level 4-6: 2 months
Level 7-9: 3 months*Changed by DM from the BRCS rules.
Correct. There isn't that many realm spells compared to "normal" spells, so the Realm Spells in the BRCS is a little bit . . . overpowered in aspect towards sorcerers.
I have questions:
1) Can Osprey start using an appropriate In-character Profile, at least in the Gameplay thread please?
2) I see that Osprey is accounting for Attitude in his Rule Source action. I was thinking that Attitude doesn't affect Source holdings? If it does, then I'm going to need to know my beginning Attitude in each of the provinces in which I have sources, and I guess I need to roll the adjustments for those.
3) I see where Osprey is declaring what he rolled, and not rolling. Where did Osprey do his rolls? Are we rolling here on Paizo.com, or each pulling out the bones at our own location and using an honor system?
A1. He can start using an in-character profile. I'll talk to him about it after he gets off work.
A2. Attitude does affect source holdings. At least according to the Book of Magecraft. Since you are a new source regent, the attitude starts at indifferent.
A3. We should be rolling here, for transparency. It helps me to know what is rolled.
Ok, soooo, how do I decide the "level" of a Realm spell?
Hmm . . . Doesn't say. Here's the page on the BRCS.
Ok, in order to roll my attitude adjustments.
For the following Provinces, can you tell me which of these modifiers apply?
Deepshadow/Coeranys
Duornil/Coeranys
Mistil/Coeranys
Ranien/Coeranys
Hamein/Chimaeron
Mhowe/Chimaeron-10: 100% of the holdings of any type in the province are hostile to the active regent
-5: 50% or more of the holdings of one type in the province are hostile to the active regent
-1: per law holding held by a non-allied regent
-1: if militia levies are mustered for any purpose except the defense of the realm.I pulled these out, because I'm pretty sure they don't apply.
-10: Military forces occupy the province (martial law)
-5: Regent engages in a foreign war (without justification)
-5: Regent does not successfully deal with a major event
-2: Regent does not successfully deal with a minor event
-2: Regent engages in a foreign war (with sound justification)
All of them do.
Roger, -17 on my Attitude rolls it is!
Recalculate the attitude modifiers. I meant the provinces. They are currently indifferent to you, since you're a new regent.
I'm finding it hard to keep track of who is who. I'm sure that most (all?) this information is available if I look through lots of sources but this is much easier and I'm lazy :-)
I've created a google doc that everybody should be able to edit. Could I please request that people either post here or update that document (ideally both) with the following information
Character Name
Realm
Class (helps to know how my character would interact with you, both strategically and in face to face adventures)
discordid
I'll start:
Character name : Ehsan ibn Assan
Realm : Elinie
Class : Cleric of Avani
Discord : pauljathome3770
Link to Google Doc
I have no clue if this will be of any use to anybody else but I thought I'd share it in case it is,
I've created a spreadsheet (using libre office) that I'm going to use to keep track of what I've done, relevant Realm details, etc.
Its very basic. In particular, it does NOT do any dice rolls and it mostly requires you to manually copy things.
I did make an attempt to make if class neutral. If you're not playing a cleric then just edit the Regent page.
If people need this in a different format I can supply some. And if you need assistance in using it I'll try and help.
I have no clue if this will be of any use to anybody else but I thought I'd share it in case it is,
I've created a spreadsheet (using libre office) that I'm going to use to keep track of what I've done, relevant Realm details, etc.
Its very basic. In particular, it does NOT do any dice rolls and it mostly requires you to manually copy things.
I did make an attempt to make if class neutral. If you're not playing a cleric then just edit the Regent page.
If people need this in a different format I can supply some. And if you need assistance in using it I'll try and help.
Paul, Ian (Evindyl) is making a Domain spreadsheet in Excel. Hopefully you'll find that one to be of use. Osprey also made a domain tracker sheet in Word.
