Invite only session zero discussion. If you're not invited or stumbled into the thread, please ignore it. Thank you.
Alright, everyone, let's talk about this thing. What are we looking at? We're certainly looking at a thing, though I am not sure what it will be.
I have looked at the concept of balance, considered it, and then promptly tossed out out of the window. As I mentioned in our less public preliminary chat, I would like to use the following variants here:
Dual Class
You level up in two classes instead of one, gaining all the class features.
Free Archetype
Every even level, you get a free feat that can be used only for archetype feats. Whether we will go for a version when we do not limit taking a new archetype before picking up 3 feats of a specific archetype is something I am thinking about. We can discuss it
Gradual Ability Boosts
Instead of having to pick four ability boosts on 5th, 10th, 15th, and 20th level, you instead get one ability boost at every level except 6, 11, and 16.
Other possible stuff on the table includes:
Ancestry Paragon
Extra ancestry feats at 5th, 9th, 13th, and 17th levels. Plain and simple. Some ancestries do not have enough of a feat pool to fill this, so we'll need to talk about it depending on what ancestries you are going for.
Automatic Bonus Progression
This will depend on what classes you bring to the table. Full casters (IF someone decides to go full bonkers and do a two full caster gestalt for some reason) are a bit shafted by this, giving martials an edge. Again, we can talk about it.
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In this game, we will be running around Golarion, which I like as a setting, and I'm too busy and/or lazy to make up my own world. This guy, right? Can't even craft a world? Trashmaster!
The actual starting point/location will be based on what we discuss here. At the moment, not determined.
I will try to weave our story as we go, depending on what you do in the world. Meaning we are not doing an AP. I like to run sandbox games with some gentle nudging towards the planned outline. With that said, I've been doing this for a while and know that when the GM plans, players laugh as they pour the gasoline and juggle burning matches. You will have hooks, you will have town criers screaming their throats out about the local interesting events. If you decide to pursue some of those, cool. If you have your own agenda, cool.
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Which brings us to the fun part. Theme.
So what game do you want to play? We already know it will be crazy stupid balance wise. I am asking for a consensus on theme. Polintrigue? Horror? High fantasy? What are we looking at? I would like everyone to put their opinion down, and we'll try to reach some common ground.
Speaking of themes, everyone has a line in the sand. What's yours? What do you NOT want to see in the game? Not to worry if you omit something right now. In the future, if you feel like we are getting dangerously close to something you'd rather not see in the game, just let the table know and we'll either tone down or steer away.
I'll go first here.
I will not do sexual violence scenes. Hard no there.
I will not do sex scenes or ERP. Doors close, fade to black, beautiful morning.
I will not do intentional body mutilations. Flamingo knees to pull information from someone, etc. Obviously, there will probably be combat. But a slice across the forearm is not PUSHING THUMBS INTO THE OPPONENTS EYE SOCKETS TO TICKLE BRAIN MATTER. I assume you get what I am trying to say here.
We're not shooting A Serbian Film here. We're playing a game. If you are not sure that that is, lucky you.
Alignments are not a thing anymore in this game, BUT... play nice. You can play a selfish bastard of a person that sold their child to slavery, but find a way to cooperate with the party. On the other hand, don't be afraid to speak up if you feel like something is off. We are here to have fun as a collective, and can talk like functioning adults, I assume.
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So yeah. Most of you know me, I am Espi (he/him, if that's something useful to you), I play and run games for a few years now, going back to 2010 I think? I like to think I can help telling a story, but that's subjective. Sometimes when I am in a hurry, I make errors in text. S%$@ happens. I'm just a man.
So - hello and welcome, and let's start the discussion.
I really love a good high fantasy. I like horror elements and political intrigue. I'm most interested in character development with my own character alongside the people I'm playing with. Character-driven plots are my favorite.
You already covered my hard lines. I can't think of anything else, but if we veer close to something that might be too much for me, I will be sure to send you a PM. Extreme violence & sexual assault are my hard lines.
I would like to play around with some big magic spells and stuff. I usually play more martial characters and think it would be fun to fool around with that.
Normally this is where I would mention that my characters don't flirt with anyone. But since my wife is playing, we are thinking of playing a pair of Kobolds in a permanent and already established relationship. We will of course keep things to a PG rating or better.
I haven't ever played with Dual Class before. It will be interesting to try. From what I am analyzing, it still doesn't necessarily make for more powerful characters - there is still a cap to how high your bonuses can get, and you still only have three actions each round. But it does end up creating characters that have few weaknesses. Normally, spellcasters don't have much weapon proficiency; some don't have armor proficiency; melee bruisers struggle to have ranged attacks; Rogues do high damage, but have low HP. Things like that.
For Ancestry Paragon, there are a couple of things that I would propose for ancestries that don't have enough ancestry feats. One is to pick a versatile heritage that comes with more feats. That isn't always an option for some character concepts though. Another is to homebrew ancestry feats - which is hard to handle in character build apps like Pathbuilder. And a third is to poach existing feats from a different but similar ancestry. Again, that one isn't always possible because of the ancestry not really having anything similar. An example of this working is a Sprite character that can pick from certain Gnome feats. In Pathbuilder that can be handled by giving a custom Adopted Ancestry (Gnome) at level 1 or 3. An example of this not working is Goloma.
Automatic Bonus Progression does favor martial classes and more importantly, the reduction in loot penalizes certain spellcasting classes - specifically, the spellcasting classes that have to learn and pay for all of their additional spells. Spontaneous casters are usually fine because they don't spend much money learning a bunch of extra spells. Druid and Cleric are fine because they don't have to spend money learning common spells. It is only Wizard, Witch, and Magus that are nerfed by ABP.
The easy fix for that is to remove the monetary cost of learning spells. Keep the access requirements, especially for Uncommon/Rare spells, and even the time cost. Just don't make it cost coin since getting loot is reduced with ABP.
Something that I want to try out at some point is removing the monetary cost of everything. Limit the items that characters can have in some other way - probably have permanent item and consumable item slots similar to spell slots. You can have a certain number of items of certain item levels. The costs of getting them are handwaved and we simply role-play finding, buying, or otherwise acquiring these items in-game.
There are also some other known bugs with ABP, mostly centering around the blanket removal of item bonuses from everything. It nerfs alchemical items like mutagens and certain spells like Mage Armor and Magic Weapon that give a higher item bonus than what you can get from permanent items at the character level that they come available at. The fix for that is to convert the item bonus of temporary effects to a potency bonus that ABP uses and as normal, the bonuses of the same type don't stack. But you can use the higher bonus from the consumable for the duration of the effect.
As for plot of the campaign, I don't have a lot of suggestions. I am not overly familiar with the Golarion setting, though I am getting more experience with it as the years go on. I have to look up specific information on the wiki as it comes up when someone else mentions it.
Which means that I don't really have any particular like or dislike of any area.
Also, with Dual Class and Free Archetype, it won't be hard to have all of our characters capable and competent at nearly any type of scenario. Wandering episodic problem solvers in the style of The A-Team would probably work just fine.
Also, as a side note. I am unable to get this campaign out of my 'Previous Campains' list. Even though I have an active character in it now. Not sure what is causing that. But it does make it hard to notice if anyone else posts something in here.
You might need to dot and then delete in gameplay to get it to show up.
I did that. I am suspecting that it is that my entire player was marked as inactive instead of just the Lanni character that I was playing earlier.
But it is fixed now.
Yeah I did not want this to clog the campaign tabs of previous players, so I marked everyone as inactive a while ago.
I assume it would reactivate once you re-dot, but it seems that is not the case.
Anyway, fixed now!
Please note that in the pursuit of a player-oriented game, I will actually want some backstories from you. Probably with some goals included. So start thinking about those in a general sense.
Once we settle on the theme/tone/GPS of the game, we can expand.
As a player, I am actually a fan of making a quick premise before starting, but expanding on that as the game moves on. You make a few dumb decisions on the spot in regards to the character personality, and can slap that into the backstory doc when time permits.
But it is good for both you and me to have something to start with.
I am gravitating toward a more quick premise and expanding on it as the game moves on. I generally do too much with my character backgrounds and don't always leave myself with room to "discover" my character along with the rest of my group.
I can definitely do goals and backstories once we have an idea of the premise. I have some pretty loose ideas so far.
I'll need some double-checking when we get characters created. I tried a PF1e gestalt game and creating the gestalt character was a process. PF2e is a little gentler with character creation, but it's been a minute since I've created a character haha.
Also, with Dual Class and Free Archetype, it won't be hard to have all of our characters capable and competent at nearly any type of scenario. Wandering episodic problem solvers in the style of The A-Team would probably work just fine.
That popped into my head at some point. Since there is dual class, we can do a lot of things with it. Not that I will be forcing you to take a specific class, but I just found some funny options:
- proselytising cultists *cough* clerics *cough* wandering the world, converting who they can. they try, but the deity is problematic
- bards on a tour, bringing culture to the savage lands. wooing dragons and killing princesses
- a bunch of randos decide to start a thieves' guild in the equivalent of Megacity One
- initially boring magic academy (wizards or witches)
- pirates of the inner sea (gunslingers and/or swashbucklers)
And so on and so forth. Again - this is not a proposal. Just dumb ideas.
- pirates of the inner sea (gunslingers and/or swashbucklers)
That one sounds interesting to me having played part of Skulls & Shackles for a bit.
The difficulty is that ship to ship combat is rather undefined and has to be heavily homebrewed.
I am eyeing Trick Driver as archetype in any case though.
Normally this is where I would mention that my characters don't flirt with anyone. But since my wife is playing, we are thinking of playing a pair of Kobolds in a permanent and already established relationship. We will of course keep things to a PG rating or better.
This is super sweet and I support it 100%.
I haven't ever played with Dual Class before. It will be interesting to try. From what I am analyzing, it still doesn't necessarily make for more powerful characters...
The way I see it, it gives options. In my eyes, options are good. It's why I am a free archetype fan.
For Ancestry Paragon, there are a couple of things that I would propose for ancestries that don't have enough ancestry feats. One is to pick a versatile heritage that comes with more feats. That isn't always an option for some character concepts though. Another is to homebrew ancestry feats - which is hard to handle in character build apps like Pathbuilder. And a third is to poach existing feats from a different but similar ancestry. Again, that one isn't always possible because of the ancestry not really having anything similar. An example of this working is a Sprite character that can pick from certain Gnome feats. In Pathbuilder that can be handled by giving a custom Adopted Ancestry (Gnome) at level 1 or 3. An example of this not working is Goloma.
I suppose we will have to look at these on an individual basis. The point is to make all characters "legal" in pathbuilder. If that is possible by adding a custom feat, I might be open to it.
Why pathbuilder - very simple. Tracking. Making a gestalt character is already complicated enough. The app will check it for you, and we can see whether it's all in order.
So that's the philosophy behind the "maybe" ruling.
Automatic Bonus Progression does favor martial classes and more importantly, the reduction in loot penalizes certain spellcasting classes - specifically, the spellcasting classes that have to learn and pay for all of their additional spells. Spontaneous casters are usually fine because they don't spend much money learning a bunch of extra spells. Druid and Cleric are fine because they don't have to spend money learning common spells. It is only Wizard, Witch, and Magus that are nerfed by ABP.
Well, the problem is potency runes. As far as I am aware, there is no equivalent for full casters that simply adds a +x to hit or +x to the spell DC. That is my main concern. A +3 bonus is fairly major.
The easy fix for that is to remove the monetary cost of learning spells. Keep the access requirements, especially for Uncommon/Rare spells, and even the time cost. Just don't make it cost coin since getting loot is reduced with ABP.
Interesting. Spellbook casters need to purchase a scroll and then pay the same price again to learn the spell? Am I reading this right? Because that's bonkers.
Suppose that you purchased a scroll of the spell, I would assume that the cost is null, similar to witch.
If you "research" the spell during downtime, sure. Pony up.
Something that I want to try out at some point is removing the monetary cost of everything. Limit the items that characters can have in some other way - probably have permanent item and consumable item slots similar to spell slots. You can have a certain number of items of certain item levels. The costs of getting them are handwaved and we simply role-play finding, buying, or otherwise acquiring these items in-game.
I'm gonna go ahead and say this. I will not do this here. There is a limit to item amount. Of invested items, at least. A mechanic to acquiring items in the game outside of purchasing them. Crafting, and let's be honest - PCs find most stuff while adventuring.
There are also some other known bugs with ABP, mostly centering around the blanket removal of item bonuses from everything. It nerfs alchemical items like mutagens and certain spells like Mage Armor and Magic Weapon that give a higher item bonus than what you can get from permanent items at the character level that they come available at. The fix for that is to convert the item bonus of temporary effects to a potency bonus that ABP uses and as normal, the bonuses of the same type don't stack. But you can use the higher bonus from the consumable for the duration of the effect.
These, I can agree on. Hence the variant rule being in the "on the table" pile, instead of "in effect".
Well, the problem is potency runes. As far as I am aware, there is no equivalent for full casters that simply adds a +x to hit or +x to the spell DC. That is my main concern. A +3 bonus is fairly major.
Correct.
But that is with or without ABP. Without ABP There still isn't anything equivalent to the +3 weapon runes for a spellcaster's spell accuracy.
The wealth disparity of ABP comes because of things like an Animal Instinct Barbarian that only needs to spend a few GP on basic armor and then ABP takes care of everything else that they actually need. A Monk doesn't even need the armor. Items and consumables become a 'cool to have if we stumble across them' rather than an actual cost sink.
But a spellcaster does still have things that aren't covered by ABP that they want or need to spend money on. Spell learning, scrolls, wands, staves...
Learning new spells is certainly the most problematic of those. Having a staff can be considered a 'nice to have' rather than a need. Though a Psychic may disagree.
Spellbook casters need to purchase a scroll and then pay the same price again to learn the spell? Am I reading this right? Because that's bonkers.
Pretty close, yes.
Buying the scroll is not actually required. It is just one of the easiest ways of gaining access to someone or something that knows the spell and will teach it to the spellcaster. An NPC Wizard friend works just as well, but is harder to find in-game.
Learning the spell is a separate process with its own cost. However, learning the spell from a scroll doesn't consume the scroll. Just like learning the spell from a Wizard doesn't consume the Wizard. So if you go the 'buy scroll, then learn spell from it' route, you will still have the scroll to use or sell.
Witch has an exception to that. They can still learn the spell from the scroll without consuming the scroll like a Wizard can by spending the normal Learn a Spell cost and creating a mock version of the scroll. But they also have the option to just give the scroll to the familiar and have them consume it to learn the spell - but doing it that way means that you don't have the scroll any more.
I'm gonna go ahead and say this. I will not do this here.
And to be clear - that is perfectly reasonable. I am tossing around ideas, thoughts, counterpoints, and opinions rather than trying to be bossy. I don't generally have a problem being ruled against.
Oh crap, late to the convo, my apologies.
In terms of red flags, feyrial and you already covered the stuff I'm not good with. I enjoy high fantasy campaigns and can do a little bit of political intrigue campaigns (but y'know, not so much that I hardly ever get the chance to whack something).
I'm slightly familiar with Gestalt in PF1E, though haven't yet touched Dual Class in PF2.
All of the other variant rules are things that I'm familiar with, however.
Still thinking of going Fighter+Cleric, since I enjoy the idea of making a character that can serve as a martial and cast.
Alright. Zombie Jesus holidays are over where I am at, so I suppose it's time to start narrowing the tone and theme. The location will stem from those two.
In terms of tone, so far we have:
-good high fantasy. I like horror elements and political intrigue
-high fantasy campaigns and can do a little bit of political intrigue campaigns
In terms of theme, we have:
-Naval-centric campaign
But that is just 3 players out of the expected 6 (maybe 7? Fey didn't get back to me regarding Ninni). Anyone else have any preferences or suggestions?
Lisi is also on the invite list, but Voomer mentioned Lisi traveling at the moment, so we'll wait for that. But - we can do some preliminary talks in the meantime to narrow stuff down. Come at me.
The sooner we get through this session zero stuff, the sooner we can all get to work. You will get details from me to work on the characters I get material for the campaign.
Note none of this will be set in stone. A naval campaign might turn into a superdungeon and vice versa. A horror campaign can take a hilarious turn (I -loved- the entirety of John dies at the End series. Went through all of those books in a slow week). You get the deal.
A naval campaign might turn into a superdungeon and vice versa. You get the deal.
Of course. I've played Zelda: Wind Waker. I know it can get boring to do nothing but sailing.
A naval campaign might turn into a superdungeon and vice versa. You get the deal.Of course. I've played Zelda: Wind Waker. I know it can get boring to do nothing but sailing.
So anytime my bard plays a song and we're on a ship, assume it's the Dragon Roost Island theme.
I really love a good high fantasy. I like horror elements and political intrigue. I'm most interested in character development with my own character alongside the people I'm playing with. Character-driven plots are my favorite.
You already covered my hard lines. I can't think of anything else, but if we veer close to something that might be too much for me, I will be sure to send you a PM. Extreme violence & sexual assault are my hard lines.
I'm basically on the same page with feyrial on all of that. I've worked more on Pathbuilder and I think I've pretty much got my character except for gear. I'm going with a catfolk bard/air kineticist. I'm hoping that the two-bards-in-the-party dynamic will be amusing and I'm guessing the characters will be very different! Rem will rely a lot on kineticist ranged attacks with bard providing some party support and flavor.
(Note that I need to update the character info at the link for this campaign because I am re-working a player I never got to play in another campaign...)
My backstory is in my character tab, but let me know if you want me to flesh it out any further or on any particulars. Or if you have questions about anything.
Alright. If I could please have everyone fill up THIS sheet.
I will be adding them as they are needed.
Done!
I bullet-pointed some background information, finally, in my alias. Lemme know if you wanna chat about it more/flesh anything out. In my mind, Fey has no idea what caused the eruption of her sorcerer abilities and where they come from, and occasionally, she hears unknown voices in relation to the power.
I'm trying to leave myself some room to figure her out a little better as things roll along than pigeonhole her like I tend to with my previous characters in other games.
I planned to post but Fey is ready, and whatever is prepped spell-wise on Pathbuilder is what she's got. I can have something more formal later. These past couple of days have been really busy for me.
If DM doesn't post before my plan period, I'll post Fey's readiness lol
If y'all notice any mistakes with my spell slots/cantrips stuff, please let me know. I'm not super experienced with casters and I'm definitely not experienced with dual classing/gestalt.
My only question/concern is about prepared vs spontaneous casting.
Bard, Sorcerer, and Psychic are all spontaneous casters. Which despite the name isn't very spontaneous in the idea of choosing which spells are available. You pick your repertoire during character creation and level up and those are the only spells you have available. You can cast other spells from scrolls and wands and things, but not from your spell slots.
In our group, the only ones picking a changing list of things each day is the Cleric and the Alchemist.
Yeah, it seems I can cast 2 bard spells per day and 3 sorc spells per day and cantrips are the usual unlimited. I can cast any in my repertoire, but not more than those amount of times. When I exhaust the bard spells, they're done.
I more list my spells in the spoiler because I need the whole list right in front of me or I'll forget stuff.
I need to re-read the deets on focus spells and such.
I need to re-read the deets on focus spells and such.
Yeah. And they have changed recently. Though the concept is the same.
You have two focus points - one from Counter Performance and another from Tentacular Limbs. You don't count Courageous Anthem because it is a focus Cantrip and doesn't cost a focus point to use. If you get a third focus spell (one that costs a focus point to use - not another Cantrip from a Bard feat), you get up to the max of 3 focus points.
Casting a focus spell costs 1 point. No matter the rank of the focus spell - which is auto-heightened like a Cantrip is.
Then once the battle is done, you can refocus your focus points back up to full to have them ready again for the next battle.