[PF2 / Farol] #2-13: A Gilded Test (High Tier) (Inactive)

Game Master Farol

So the only way to beat the lions is to fight them?

Yes

sigh

So here's what is annoying me about this. Avonath, you are complaining about not being able to resolve an encounter non-lethally, to the point where you are just making ineffective actions out if protests. But then you just have magic missile and snowball memorized. So it's hard to take your protests seriously because wizards have tons of spells that could help us win this fight without killing the lions but you only chose the lethal options your class has.

So next time maybe memorize web or charm or color spray or invisibility if you don't want to kill things. But for now, maybe stop slowing the game down with your complaining. And maybe use some of those lethal damage spells that YOU (not the me, not the GM, YOU) picked out for your character so that we can beat this encounter without losing anyone.

You are free to play your character the way you want. No one is telling you how to do it. You don't have to like it. Where was your concern and healing when she was getting the crap knocked out of her with shovles? So spare me your false and what appears selfish outrage,Mirtha.

And why are you looking at other character's stats/abilities?

When Avonatha was getting attacked, Emdi scrambled back to give Avonatha an escape route and Hornbori shielded Mirtha and Anjo. The three of you had to be the damage dealers when Hornbori and Emdi got calm emotionsed, that's why Mirtha personally focused on attacking instead of helping you.

Avonatha is a Maagabayan trained wizard...hurting animals for sport isnt something she likes. Not that I owe anyone an explanation. But I am sure the gnome knows that after reading my profile.

If we want to be picky, Avonatha didn't get healed until AFTER the fight even though she was down to like 2 hp.

Ok, Can we all calm down.

I will post something longer tomorrow, as today I don't have enough time to address everything that was written.

Not taking sides.

@GM - PF2 is arguably about empowering GMs, more so than P1. In this situation, I think it would be entirely plausible to let a PC, who clearly does not take a threatening act towards the lions, make a Nature or Charisma check to convince the animals not to attack that PC, and that PC alone. This allows you to honor the PC's roleplay goals. But again, that's entirely up to the GM.

@Avona Unfortunately, you're running head first into the shortcomings of the entire D&D style genre. It's typically kill or be killed in combat. No version of PF/D&D has, imo, done a good job of facilitating non-violent resolution once Initiative has been rolled. Intimidation might be of some use, but the rules do not really give the players or the GM organic ways to subdue opponents non-physically. The best you get is a "non-lethal" attack a the end...lol.

The other challenge is that this genre does a really bad job of providing the GM with any tools to encourage your type of role play. I once played a Savage World game where my character ran into a nemesis from my character's back story. Instead of attacking that round, I had my character "freeze up." The GM said that if players do these things, they get some type immediate bonus/beneift for doing so. Unfortunately Pathfinder has nothing like that. So once Initiative starts, there's no mechanical benefit for not attacking. Your only hope is that the GM might come up with something, and that's asking a lot given the rule system has no such call out.

However, I think you would be well served to be more decisive in these situations. I don't want to put words in Mirtha's mouth, but perhaps some of her/his/they frustration is that you appear to be hemming and hawing about your lack of options and this is delaying the game. It's not an issue for me personally, but recognize that as the scenario nears the end, some players are looking for their next game and if the end drags on too long, they might miss an opportunity.

The other aspect of a character electing to not-act, is that this can put the rest of the party a tactical disadvantage. If it's a Severe encounter, then the scenario is anticipating contribution from the full team. Granted, you did subdue one lion, so I don't that's as much of an issue here, but other players could feel somewhat betrayed.

@Mitha - Yeah...that comes across a little harsh. I think I am a little more sensitive to Avona's complaint because I am often disappointed with how binary combat encounters are in PFS. This is the first time playing PF2 where I've seen NPCs "surrender." And that's only because this is formal contest. Everyone else, inexplicably, wants to fight to the death.

And why are you looking at other character's stats/abilities?

While I agree that it feels like somewhat of an invasion for Mirtha to look at your character and then criticize your build choices. When I GM, I specifically ask players to look at each other's sheets so that everyone is aware of what the other PCs are bringing to the table.

"Cooperate" is an important aspect of PFS, both IC and OOC, and that is facilitated by understanding who you are playing with, their strengths and weaknesses.

I don't look at other character sheets because their build is nonma, none my business.

I don't look at other character sheets because their build is nonma, none my business.

It is your business if your lives depend on each other, right?

OK, I am being harsh because I think constantly complaining about the mechanics of the system and how the scenario is written is disrespectful. Disrespectful to the writers who work hard to produce this content and disrespectful to the GM who is doing a lot of hard work to run the game. And maybe a little bit to the players who may also want to keep the game going.

It might seem neutral to complain about the mechanics of a game or the story of the game, but when it gets excessive it can bring the whole table down. And its not fun GMing for a table full of complainers. Even if its not directed at you; it can still get into your head. You can start needlessly doubting your abilities or wondering if you did something wrong.

Also, I guess I've never considered profiles to be private information. I don't think most people consider it to be private information in PbP. Sometimes players look at each others' sheets because they are curious about their builds and sometimes because they want to coordinate tactics during gameplay. In PbP, you don't get a lot of the crosstalk that you would have at a table that lets you figure out what the party is capable of and being Society play you are gaming with different people and different characters every time.

Full disclosure to everybody at the table: I skimmed EVERYBODY'S character sheet when we first started! I always do it!

Although, if you had said before hand that its something that you felt uncomfortable with, I would have refrained from doing so. So my recommendation is that it might be something to mention right away, because I guarantee other people do the same thing.

Let me try to address some of the points:

- First and foremost, we should all be aware that what you do does not mean that others do it as well. Looking at other profiles for some is a non-issue for others it holds deep secrets of their characters. I personally suggest putting such things into spoilers described them in a meaningful way (Please don't look). Yes, I am one of the players that frequently look at other people's profiles to learn about builds, find other people's choices with regards to feats, etc. That is my way of learning the system and the game. I respect other wishes not to share information or look into spoilers. I try to also not to use the knowledge that I have in the game. As a GM I always read the profiles, mostly to learn about odd feats but also to finds limitations (cleric anathemas and such).

- The scenario mechanics. I am trying to deliver a scenario that was written and published by Paizo (well an author and Paizo). I am fine with commenting on the structure, fairness of it, and all that. But if I understand correctly I am expected to deliver the scenario as written. I am making some adjustments but there are rather on how you receive the game (I can list them all but I prefer to leave it towards the end of the scenario). At the moment I don't want to remove a fight with the villain from the scenario as there will be very little that is left in the scenario. If you have feedback I suggest you bring it to Paizo as they can impact how they create their future scenarios. If you have feedback about how I reacted to a given situation or how I delivered the content that is super useful to me as it allows me to grow as a GM.

- Unusual PC choices. I saw PCs that did not want to harm others, I saw PCs with phobias, fears, etc. I don't mind that, there is nothing wrong with that, RP is about bringing different characters together. But the society play is what it is, you are given a mission and you work as a team to do your best. If you have a limitation (RP-wise or stat-wise), I believe it is on you to find a way to be useful. So I sympathize with what Mirtha was trying to say. Every class has a way to be useful in different situations, it is up to a player to find a way to be useful (by learning non-lethal or utility spells, bringing scrolls, buying non-lethal weapons, spending skill points in Medicine, etc.). Ultimately it is a team effort and people are expected to do their best.

- "Fighting animals" - to address this specific case. I am not familiar with this particular dedication and lore behind it. I don't know what is it that stops you from hurting animals (scanning through the online rules I can't see it). But Animal Druids have sentences like:
'Committing wanton cruelty to animals or killing animals unnecessarily is anathema to your order. (This doesn’t prevent you from defending yourself against animals or killing them cleanly for food.)'

This situation that you are in is far from hunting animals for sport. You were not given a choice and you are attacked by animals. The druid orders allow you to defend yourself and your allies. From GM perspective I told you that I will make this fight non-lethal and let you tend to their wounds etc.

@Avonatha if you feel like your PC does not want to take part in this fight I can take you out of it and scale down the encounter. I don't think it is that simple as saying: there is a Human so you will attack him. What will your PC do when Lions rip your allies apart? I think it is either in or out of the fight as a whole.

I also think that this kind of moral limitation: My PC will not hurt an animal (for example) is something worth saying to the GM at the beginning of the scenario (especially if he tells you: I am a new GM! ;))

- The Calm Emotion fight - if a player has expectations regarding other PC actions they should say it. Every PC makes a choice while in combat and frequently it is a choice between heal allies or hurt some. Spell slots are valuable tools especially that plenty of scenarios do not give you a night's sleep to replenish them. So healing after the fight using Medicine from the tactical point of view is better (as you can do it every hour). And Mirtha was also getting shoveled by the digger. It is a great equator shovel in the face hits both Sorcerers and Wizards ;)

To Sum Up. This is a game, and we are here to have fun. Both you and me. I am doing my best to make it enjoyable for you and to look for creative ways to make it better without changing it into Home Game where I craft the fights and content.

Please when writing here assume the best intentions from the other side (and give people the benefit of the doubt). Non-verbal communication is really hard due to not being able to hear the tone, see the gestures, and all that. On top of that, there are some (me for example) to whom English is not a native language.

Sorry for yet another really long post ;)

Did her shield not block and damage?

A shield spell allows you to make the reaction to block part of the damage or not. Shield spell says that when you block the damage you can't cast it for 10 minutes (which is basically till the end of the fight). So if you want to block this damage just let me know in your post.

@Hornbori - shield math and mechanics (I would say it at a table) so I will spend my time writing. Steal and Tower Shields have a Hardness of 5 BT of 10 and HP of 20. This means that in a fight you can block:
- an unlimited amount of hits that deal 5 or less damage.
- 2 Hits that deal 10-14 points of damage
- 1 hit that deals 15+ points of damage

And given that shield gives you +2 to AC I find it more useful to raise your AC than to actually block hits. Personally, I follow the rule to
- Always shield block hits that deal 4-6 damage
- Usually, block hits that deal 7-8
- Almost never block hits that deal 10+ damage (unless it keeps you standing and it is crucial for you to last that 1 round longer).

Basically, it is about optimizing the shield to last the longest. It feels off that you gain more by using shield on weak blows and not the powerful ones but this is how they made the math ;)

So in retro - I think it would be better for you to not block the crit as it straight destroys your shield. Then you could decide to block the second hit which would result in the same outcome, and if there would be no second attack personally I still believe that shield is worth more than one time 5 dmg reduction.

As always, the above are my thoughts on shields, feel free to do as you will.

I have not complained about the mechanics of this scenario. I have said that she is not built for CHA things but others are,and that is the point of PFS. So your accusation is disrespectful and not accurate. Also assuming that you know what is going on in someone's personal life and that peoples posting might be impacted by that is also disrespectful to players, so the cross can be gotten of now, we need the wood.

You are right. I do not know what has happened in your life to have made you the person you are today. I don't know your dreams or fears that dwell in your heart, just as you will never know mine. In a profound sense everyone is unknowable to everyone else; we're all just mist shrouded islands floating in a sea of aloneness.

Oh Mirta, in your second tirade of inaccuracy, you said that peoples complaining about rules made you, implication of the reader, second guess themselves. Sorry but you can only speak for yourself. If sonmone else's opinions do that., well...

Oh Mirta, in your second tirade of inaccuracy, you said that peoples complaining about rules made you, implication of the reader, second guess themselves. Sorry but you can only speak for yourself. If sonmone else's opinions do that., well...

And it is not full disclosure if you get called out on something.

@Mirtha, @Avonatha - I don't think your exchange of posts is leading anywhere. So may I kindly ask you to stop writing on this topic. If you want to throw posts at each other do it outside of my game.

I would like to finish this game without any more of the above.

@Avonatha - I asked you a question in my post and I am still waiting for a response.

It is kind of a moot point about being asked if I don't want to participate in this arean combat, AFTER I have been attacked.

It is kind of a moot point about being asked if I don't want to participate in this area combat AFTER I have been attacked.

Just tell me if you want or don't want to participate. I can simply take you out of it along with the weaker lions (this is the difference in scaling the fight).

I even can go through the past posts and revert the damage did by the weaker lion. So I am still waiting for your response.

Ok, so I guess you are in. When you use to summon a minion you can do two actions. The leaping charge from Rappy is one, so it can do another attack.

That would be the end of the scenario. Around Monday I will get you chronicles and I will report the game.

Great job Farol. You ran that as well as any GM I've played with. If you are still running a quest, I do have a 1st level investigator who needs more quests.

Thanks, man! It was fun!

Well run, Farol! It was very fun.

Thank you so much for running this one for us!

Thanks to the DM and my fellow players.

Chronicles are here!
The game is reported. Please have a look if everything looks correct. Anjo missed a 0 in his PF number but he had the correct one in his profile so I fixed it already.

I am glad that you liked the game. I think you played the better variant as the low tier fights are way different:
- The first fight (calm emotions one), low tier consists of 1 grave digger and a bunch of commoners throwing rocks. So it is a slap fight with lvl 0 minions
- The second fight (trap one) - the mercenaries are very weak (9 hp) and there is a lot of them (like 4-6) which is odd as the map is rather narrow so it is hard to do something with such an amount of foes. And they fall very quickly

I will run the quest but it is for lvl 3-6. I will post here in few days with a link and then I will recruit the missing bodies. I just need to get my other games in a stable situation.

Quest 9: Wayfinder Origins Product Page

Not every scenario translates well to PbP well.

My Chronicle and reporting look great.

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I will play Q9 with a pregen and apply the credit to a Level 1 character.

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In general, I've enjoyed high tier more than low tier (3-4 for 1-4s, 5-6 for 3-6s, 7-8 for 5-8s).

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Influence is hard to plan out, because unlike combat, there's usually a limited number of rounds. If players roll well, a lot of important information gets divulged very quickly, and if they roll poorly, they may never get it.

PFS1 scenarios #4-09 (Blakros Matrimony) and #5-03 (Hellknight's Feast) use the mechanic well, IMO, and you may want to look at those for inspiration (for games outside of PFS, in PFS you're hoping the authors did that). One mechanic they employ is the ability to lose Influence Points - much like regeneration in combat, it adds to the danger because stuff that was accomplished earlier could be undone.

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In general, I think the GM should try their hardest to win fights. For Calm Emotions, I think the danger is limited by the fact that most characters snap out when attacked. As someone noted, the spell is broken when the target is attacked by any creature, even an ally - so one character can run around slapping allies to end the spell. We had a good map and a good party composition to go hard - I was prepared to run skirmish-style operations with Emdi/Hornbori blocking corridors and forcing enemies to circle around buildings.

@GM
- I think the changes you made were great. Things these types of things can help a game feel more orgainic and 3-dimensional

- Combat. So my opinion is slightly different than Emdi...

I could probably count on one hand the number of GMs that have GM'd to "win" combat. IME as a GM and reading PFS1 scenarios. It would be fairly easy to kill off at least one or two PCs a game if I really wanted to. The question is whether I could do it and fully honor the tactics "as written."

I can't speak authoritatively on PF2, but in PF1 the majority of the scenarios intentionally give NPCs sub-optimal combat tactics, or specifically restrict spell use. If a GM were to ignore the restricted spells or proscribed use of them, then you're going to get a lot more fatalities. Even then, as a GM, I find that i have to look for valid ways not to kill off wounded vulnerable PCs. Usually it's pretty easy to rationalize not attacking the same person or not using a coup de grace.

In PF2, it's been my experience, the outcomes are far more depended on dice rolls. This is super-evident with boss fights. The +10 crit mechanic and proclivity of the authors to use Large creatures with AoO's and reach, means it would be fairly trivial to kill one PC a round if you just attack that one PC. I think GMs are having to go out of their way to attack different PCs, or go after Animal Companions.

So yeah, the effort you put into trying to "win" a fight is going to be a judgment call. Especially if you want to avoid fudging dice rolls (you know....changing the order of things your roll after you see the outcomes--because I know some GMs do it).

Is there a way to buy runes to get her better armor class now?

Fundamental Armor Runes

Level 5, 160 gp

You have to be 5th to purchase it then?

Yes. The exception would be if the item shows up on a Chronicle, in which case you could purchase it at 3rd level (if you found a way to afford it - 3rd level characters would be hard-pressed to afford a 160 gp item).

Purchasing Guidelines:

You can always purchase the following items so long as you’re in a settlement of at least 5,000 residents (and scenarios might sometimes provide additional allowances or limitations):

Any common equipment in sanctioned Pathfinder content with an item level equal to or less than your character’s level (minimum 2).

Any uncommon equipment in sanctioned Pathfinder content with an item level equal to or less than your character’s level (minimum 2); your character must have access to this uncommon equipment such as through meeting its Access condition.

Any equipment listed on your character’s Chronicles with an item level equal to or less than your character’s level + 2. Some items found on Chronicles are available for purchase only a limited number of times. Weapons and Armor found on Chronicles can be upgraded following the normal rules for upgrading.

Any basic equipment weapon or armor your character has access to can be purchased in a precious material version, provided you have access to weapons or armor made of that precious material. The weapon or armor must still meet any requirements stipulated in the listing for the precious material in question.

Any items and services purchased with Achievement Points.

Bolding mine, for emphasis.

Generally yes. You can get items two levels earlier if they are on a chronicle sheet. Another option would be getting a level 1 wand with mage armor, since it is an all day spell it works well as a wand.

(Ninja'd)

Please post in Discussion thread if you wish to play in Quest #9 Wayfinder Origins (3-6 repeatable).

In 24 h I will announce the remaining seats for the public.

Do I have time to learn a spell or two?

Yes. The exception would be if the item shows up on a Chronicle, in which case you could purchase it at 3rd level (if you found a way to afford it - 3rd level characters would be hard-pressed to afford a 160 gp item).

Purchasing Guidelines:

Purchasing Guidelines wrote:

You can always purchase the following items so long as you’re in a settlement of at least 5,000 residents (and scenarios might sometimes provide additional allowances or limitations):

Any common equipment in sanctioned Pathfinder content with an item level equal to or less than your character’s level (minimum 2).

Any uncommon equipment in sanctioned Pathfinder content with an item level equal to or less than your character’s level (minimum 2); your character must have access to this uncommon equipment such as through meeting its Access condition.

Any equipment listed on your character’s Chronicles with an item level equal to or less than your character’s level + 2. Some items found on Chronicles are available for purchase only a limited number of times. Weapons and Armor found on Chronicles can be upgraded following the normal rules for upgrading.

Any basic equipment weapon or armor your character has access to can be purchased in a precious material version, provided you have access to weapons or armor made of that precious material. The weapon or armor must still meet any requirements stipulated in the listing for the precious material in question.

Any items and services purchased with Achievement Points.

Bolding mine, for emphasis.

Thank you.

I am looking at the skill feats that she gets and right now the only one that seems interesting is Assurance. Is that a good feat to take?

Assurance is okay, but it depends on the skill you are using with it. It might be better with a skill she's bad in, because you lose most of your bonuses. If it's strong skill, mathematically you're usually better off just rolling it.

Trick Magic item is an interesting one. Multilingual is good. Sign language would be nifty if you're in a group where someone else took it. And you can't go wrong with Additional Lore or Skill Training.

Multilingual might be good as well. Or maybe a skill that is not INT dependent.

Thanks!

My understanding with Assurance is very much what Mirtha is saying. It really depends on what Skill you are using it for i.e. and what supporting benefit you get from result.

To put it another way, Assurance is only good if the outcome is high enough to succeed at the skill checks you are using it for. This usually coincides with a skill that has fixed DCs for actions and that you plan on upgrading the underlying skill.

For example, Assurance on Medicine if you're going to get anough bonuses so that you can eventually hit the DC20 without rolling on Medicine checks and auto-heal

My Ranger taking it for Suvival is generally going to a waste because even though I'll be upgrading Survival, tha skill has no fixed DCs. So there's no guarantee it's going to be useful. And a "guaranteed benefit" is the only reason to take it.

I think Assurance is usually a waste if you use it on a skill you are not going to upgrade and/or for which there is no Target DC you need to hit.

That makes sense. Let me see what else I can get

I have Assurance for Athletics on a wizard and I while I haven't played him much, I think it might be a beneficial at some point. Since you don't apply ANY modifiers besides the proficiency bonus, that means he doesn't have to apply his -1 penalty for his low Strength. And Athletics does have some fixed DCs for things like climbing and swimming. And the nice thing is that even if uaing Assurance leads to a failed result, it at least keeps you from having a *critical failure* so you can rest assured that your character at least keep from drowning or falling to their death while they wait to get rescued.

So give me some advice on Quests. I'm leery because it gives you only 1 XP and then you don't have a number evenly divisible by 4. So it's as if it doesn't count until you do three more quests.

Am I not thinking right about this?

So give me some advice on Quests. I'm leery because it gives you only 1 XP and then you don't have a number evenly divisible by 4. So it's as if it doesn't count until you do three more quests.

Am I not thinking right about this?

More or less. The odd XP is a problem - the last level for quests is 4, so someone like ... um, Emdi (who played Q9 as a singleton) ... with an odd XP better make some damn quick plans to get 3 quests or be stuck at odd XP forever.

Odd XP is mostly an aesthetic problem. It "doesn't count" if your goal is to minimize effort per level advanced. But, if your goal is to maximize gold per level, then "doesn't count" is actually a plus - you get more gold per level.

Also, assuming that playing a character is a plus and not a minus, it means you get to play your character more before they run through all the scenarios (currently, a character can only play 24 scenarios before leveling out ... by the end of the summer, that will be 26 scenarios). So if you really like playing your character, you can squeeze in three more quests and end up at level 9 + 2.75 scenarios instead of level 9 + 2 scenarios.

I've decided against playing Farol's Q9 - Emdi's already played it, and although I could play it with a pregen and apply the credit to another character, that just creates two characters with odd XP (and maybe a third since I'm in a GM rotation doing a bunch of Bounties).

Makes sense. Thanks.