[PF2 / Farol] #2-13: A Gilded Test (High Tier) (Inactive)

Game Master Farol

When I was a TA, we used to put the most ridiculous answers on the board and have a vote for our favorite at the end of a grading session. If any of you know organic chemistry, my all-time favorite was 8 bonds to carbon.

Now that I write it out it sounds a little mean, but really it was just a low key way to blow off steam during those 4+ hour grading sessions.

I think that the student who wrote about Marie Antoinette came to class like maybe all of 15 times all year, and that is being generous.

I want to make a fleshwarp character named Antoine Marionette who was beheaded by the Final Blades and had his head sewed back on.

He wants to spend all of Galt's money and wants to level up so he can stage a coup. XD

I love it!!

Avonatha
Ok, few things,
With regards to Raptor:
1 - for crit, I double the damage and not roll another check. so this should be 1d6 and not 2d6.
2 - 27 is not a crit, you might have wished but it is not ;)
3 - Jumping raptor can attack with his talons so 1d4 dmg and not 1d6
4 - +1 from jumping makes it a crit which is irrelevant as Wizard had 2 points of life.

For any summons, you need to spend an action to sustain the spell, which gives your summon 2 actions. Rappy took down Wizzard in one so he still has another one. Now if I recall correctly summons count as minion => you share multiple attack penalty with them. So your telekinetic projectile would go with a -5 modifier.

However, where you do not give you a line of sight to the enemies, you would have to move and then would be left with 1 action.

Given that we wait for Anjo, you may retcon your round.

You only share the multiple attack penalty with your minion if you are riding them. Which I didn't even know about and I'll have to remember to do with my cavalier.

Huh, I stand corrected. Rapi does not share MAP then with Avonatha.

And the fact about riding an animal - you share MAP means that I did it wrong so many times :( Everyone now and then my alchemist gets of his mount and they fight independently, I always shared the penalty.

I must bring it to my GM, however, given that I just used an Opportunity to attack him for shooting close range he might not be to open for this revelation :P

I think that fixed it

This is the first time that I have used a summon spell in the time that I have played 2E so bear with me :)

no worries ;)

Mirtha, just out of curiosity ... who is the deity for your cleric dedication?

Mirtha is dedicated to Sarenrae.

Hey folks,

So we are after half of the scenario (a bit further even). If you would be interested I could run for you Q9 - Wayfinder Origins (tier 3-6 quest repeatable). The reason that I propose it is that it starts with the same NPC: Muesello in Oppara.

So thematically it matches as your PC would not have to travel. Let me know if you are interested.

@Watery Soup - if I recall Emdi has the chronicle for that quest already, if you would want to bring another PC feel free.

I don't have another PC in range, but I could bring a pregen.

I would definitely want to do another scenario. I'm not so keen on quests. The problem with quests is you need 4 to equal one scenario. So if you don't do four, then you get nothing but gold.

Also, in experience, it takes a lot longer to do four quests\bounties than it does to do one scenario.

I should level to 4th a fter this scenario so I would be interested.

I'm in.

For now, my offer includes Quest 9. I will ping you at the end of the scenario, and if we have no legal table I will recruit some more PC's

Since thievery isn't even a named skill, not going to tempt fate. Plus, schmoozing is not really something Anjo is motivated to do.

1. Anjo is trained in Diplomacy, which is a named skill.

2. Schmoozing may not be Anjo's natural thing, but right now we only have 2/5 of the party attempting the Influence checks. Unlike PFS1, where often only the highest roll counted, PFS2 uses a lot of group success mechanics where all the successes are pooled.

Anjo Aroh wrote:

Since thievery isn't even a named skill, not going to tempt fate. Plus, schmoozing is not really something Anjo is motivated to do.

1. Anjo is trained in Diplomacy, which is a named skill.

Uh...what now?

2. Schmoozing may not be Anjo's natural thing, but right now we only have 2/5 of the party attempting the Influence checks. Unlike PFS1, where often only the highest roll counted, PFS2 uses a lot of group success mechanics where all the successes are pooled.

PF2 introduced the "Crit Fail" mechanic on skill checks, which previously didn't exist. That means players who are just rolling to get lucky can do more damage than good. Ask me how I know.

Now, I don't know if a Crit Fail for diplomacy will take away point in this encounter, but I'd rather not risk it. And to be honest, Anjo making a Diplomacy check would be some really egregious metagaming. There's just no way he'd attempt that.

IMO, the encounter is poorly designed. The "influence" checks are essentially three CHR based and two INT based. Those are not well suited for martials. The Ranger contribution would have been during the DIscovery phase, but that has passed. Using Thievery is a stretch and technically the GM trying to fix a bad design.

The encounter is fairly designed and is consistent with both the schema set by PFS1 and PFS2. It's also pretty representative of other skill-based encounters in PFS2.

If you succeed with a nat 16, you'll Succeed/Crit Succeed more often than you Crit Fail in a standard +2/+1/0/-1 scheme.

The encounter is fairly designed and is consistent with both the schema set by PFS1 and PFS2. It's also pretty representative of other skill-based encounters in PFS2.

No, it's not. I've played PFS for 10 years and at the end, scenarios got away from limiting checks to CHR/INT in social settings. More to the point, PF2 is suppose to have changed the paradigm in terms of skill locking encounters.

If you succeed with a nat 16, you'll Succeed/Crit Succeed more often than you Crit Fail in a standard +2/+1/0/-1 scheme.

You seem to be assuming I'll succeed on a natural 16.

Ooooh, I see the problem. My tag line says I'm trained in Diplomacy. I'm not. That must be an artifact from when I first made the character. Fixed it. Yes, I can see how you would expect me to make a Diplo check if I had +5. Apologies for the confusion.

I can see how you would expect me to make a Diplo check if I had +5.

Well, that settles the immediate question, but not the long term one.

GMs are allowed to make skill substitutions (usually at higher DCs). It's the mechanism by which "locking into CHA/INT skills" is avoided. If the GM allows you to do Thievery in place of something (Underworld Lore?), that's your ticket to ride, the only metagame is whether the DC is 24+.

It solves a mechanical problem, but not the narrative one. Roleplay is not my strong suit. More at issue is that the encounter wants me to impress her, just because. It wants the PCs to walk up to her and just start curry favoring? I think I lack the imagination on how to make that not feel weird for a ranger. Or at least the one in playing.

My only insight was to leverage the beting aspect or gain insight as to her affairs, but the authors don't seen to have contemplated the obvious.

People are whining about this one encounter being too dependent on Cha/Int checks, but I can say this might be the first scenario I've played with Mirtha where I've actually gotten to use her Diplomacy. Besides that it's been wilderness challenges with lots of Athletics and Survival checks or dungeon crawls with few skill checks.

I guess I'm just saying the scenarios have different themes and some characters aren't going to shine as much. Mirtha wasn't really useful stomping around in the woods, and Anjo is maybe not so good at talky stuff. He still was able to help out with Discovery though, so even rangers have a social niche in PFS2 being the most perceptive class.

This is why we we are a team!

I guess I'm just saying the scenarios have different themes and some characters aren't going to shine as much.

I totally agree.

I'm not really complaining that Anjo isn't as useful here. As you and I both observed, Anjo's opportunity to contribute came during the Discovery phase.

My opinion was that if the encounter needs 3/5 PCs to succeed on Influence, then it's poorly designed. I also feel like the "hey go influence So and So" feels a little awkward or desperate, like I'm being asked to hit on my waitress or my bartender.

Through the first year of PF2, I think the authors are still getting use to the new game. Or, perhaps the "success" expectations are different in PF2 and the players are having to adjust.

Do not feel bad, I am not at all a CHA based character and have not been able to do more in that area. That is why I have Rappy.

perhaps the "success" expectations are different in PF2 and the players are having to adjust.

This is exactly it. In PFS1, people could stack bonuses to power-optimize, and a single power-optimized character can carry the whole team. In PFS2, there's no more power-optimization, and even with 4 players, 1 optimized player can't reliably cover the whole team.

If you don't want to make a check for roleplay reasons, that's your choice, but it's not a scenario design issue. The scenario is designed for teams like us (1 very good fit, 1 pretty good fit, 2 mediocre fits, and 2 that are just going to have to take the L).

I also feel like the "hey go influence So and So" feels a little awkward or desperate, like I'm being asked to hit on my waitress or my bartender.

I don't see anything forced, awkward, or desperate about your first attempt: "Anjo, having noticed Vionnia's penchant for gambling, discusses some of the ways one might outsmart the bookies" followed by Thievery +8 in place of Underworld Lore. Seems pretty textbook skill substitution and appropriate roleplay.

And Vionnia is nothing like a waitress or bartender (servers whom customers have power over) - she's the one guiding us around and paying us (she has power over us). Trying to influence her is more like dropping Packers references when you find out your boss is from Wisconsin and a football fan.

As I said, I am 100% fine with Anjo lacking the skills to be effective at Influence in this encounter. But, for the sake of friendly conversation and while we wait for the GM...

And Vionnia is nothing like a waitress or bartender (servers whom customers have power over) - she's the one guiding us around and paying us (she has power over us).

It's not a question of power, it's in the context of someone doing their job which is to provide us with a type of service, and the awkwardness of trying to schmooze them. This isn't a social outing, she's our guide, not our hostess. So from my Ranger's perspective, it feels disingenuous. He'd have no reason to just try and buddy up to her. The scenario could have addressed that, but IMO, it doesn't.

Trying to influence her is more like dropping Packers references when you find out your boss is from Wisconsin and a football fan.

I've done that many times at work. But it requires a context, a basis for doing so. Like the person wearing a hat or bringing up Aaron Rodgers. IMO, the scenario fails to provide that for Underworld Lore, let alone Thievery. You just don't go up to someone and start talking about criminal activities or personas when you suspect they are involved with crime.

I don't see anything forced, awkward, or desperate about your first attempt

That's because the scenario provided a context. She was betting, but it was a stretch. This time around, there's no such purchase. And I'm really not big on these types of things, so it's pretty bad when I am set aside for roleplay reasons...lol.

Obviously we disagree, but I stand by my opinion this is a poorly designed social encounter. I really don't understand how Deception and Intimidation are to be used in an organic fashion. I suspect both are there to service Rogues who don't want to go Diplomacy and the Fighter/Barbarians who want to use their third action for Intimidate. The scenario easily could have allowed me to Track or Stealth after these contacts to gain leverage/influence, even in a generalized format.

But again, this is a non-issue IMO. I'm just making conversation. I'm 100% fine with a scenario skill gating an encounter for exactly the reasons Mirtha/Avona identified: we all shine in different areas.

EDIT: Reread the first post on influencing VIonnia. I guess we are suppose to use Deception and Intimidate in the context of pretending we know influential people. And because of that she's suppose to give us "helpful" information. So we schmoozing her for preferential treatment, it seems.

He'd have no reason to just try and buddy up to her.

We all have reason - she can make our jobs easier or harder. If opponents are cheating, or have pre-set traps, she might tell a team with high Influence and not a team with low Influence. If there's someone watching us that we need to meet, we might be able to get to the puppetmaster directly instead of having to thrash all their minions first.

Mechanically, we should consider the possibility that, instead of Influence being something we do in between combats, that we fight combats over and over again until we achieve enough Influence. That would be an interesting mechanic. I doubt Organized Play would allow a scenario like that (since they're designed with time constraints in mind), but I've done something similar in a home game.

I really don't understand how Deception and Intimidation are to be used in an organic fashion.

Those two are easy.

Deception: "I know people, powerful people, who would be willing to help your family if you were to give us an edge in this tournament."

Intimidation: "If you're not more cooperative in helping us, I'm going to call the authorities and have this whole tournament shut down."

Society: "Tell me about how we're doing. Are the people secretly watching us impressed yet? Or do we need to prove ourselves a little more before we can meet them?"

Arguably, Perform is the least organic of the bunch. I mean, seriously, we're in an underground street fighting tournament and Emdi pulls out a harmonica? *shrug* Admittedly, I just suspend my disbelief and roll.

Arguably, Perform is the least organic of the bunch. I mean, seriously, we're in an underground street fighting tournament and Emdi pulls out a harmonica? *shrug* Admittedly, I just suspend my disbelief and roll.

lol.

Yeah, I was thinking the same thing earlier., I guess you just start singing some catchy toon and she says, "Nice song. Oh btw, there are traps in the northeast corner."

I did a Blakros party in PF1 and the scenario did a nice job of giving actual topics for debate, iirc. It was easy for my Liberty's Edge Ranger to soapbox about slavery and oppression.

I think the Absalom Initiative does a neat thing with needing distractions that involve non-Charisma skills.

We all have reason - she can make our jobs easier or harder.

But for a rough and tumble Ranger, this is a contest, so its unbecoming, IMO, to go asking for help. If this were beseeching a noble for help in a war, then I could see it.

Ok, Few points.

- This is my first influence engagement and yeah beyond skills to diver and influence there is not much to it. How to RP compelling 6 rounds of 5 interactions with PC? Beats me! Maybe if I play gazillion influence interactions I will have better ideas. I went with the assumption that if I have no idea how to RP it I will drop it on your shoulders. This is not my show, but our game, we all can make it fun and compelling or not ;)
- Yeah I was thinking that besides few Lore skills there are only CHA skills to impress. That is why I allowed for Thievery (to match Underworld Lore) and Society (for Oppara Lore). But it does not change much since Thievery has only Anjo and Society only Mirtha. I could try to reshape the engagement but given my little experience, there is no saying how well would it go.
- Regarding balance - I agree with Mirtha here. Very frequently you are thrown into a 'traversing the swamp' scenario where you get beaten for not getting Athletics, Survival etc. Whatever you say, this scenario is not about underground fighting, You are supposed to discover something here, that is why befriending someone that is part of the organization could be a good idea. And yes, as always the scenario allows you to not speak to anyone and bash heads until, in the end, a letter will fall out of some pocket and give you all of the information :| So that is the motivation.

- Now, does the scenario allows you to succeed without influencing Vionnia, yes. There are 5 secondary objectives, and you have to succeed at 3 of them. Without Influence, you are left with 4 (1 of them was a Perception check and you needed a critical success which you did not get - I consider this a bit iffy). So you need to match the 3 remainings to get the secondary prize.

The map is up. I've put you in some sort of shape :D Feel free to move around within the square.

Ok, Few points.

- How to RP compelling 6 rounds of 5 interactions with PC? Beats me! Maybe if I play gazillion influence interactions I will have better ideas.

- Well, that is my issue with the encounter. It's not horrible, but for those of us who aren't gifted at roleplay, I'm hard pressed figuring out how to navigate this in a way that feels natural and on point. My personal opinion is that I shouldn't have to work that hard and neither should the GM. I've been playing PFS for over 10 years, so it's not like I have no idea how roleplay works (but hey, I suppose it depends on who you ask...lol) I don't see the encounter setting me up for six rounds of conversation, especially if I lack any of the named skills. But, the encounter did give me an opportunity to contribute, so I can be happy with that.

The reality is that social encounters are simply a vehicle for social skill checks. Since the game has the skill, the scenario has to provide a context for it to be used. Sometimes it's easy for players to find a groove and sometimes it's harder. I'm not a particularly skilled roleplayer, so this one was harder for me. Not a big deal and certainly nothing the GM has to apologize for.

Yeah I tend to think this type of mechanic works better in a "dinner party" type of scenario where there are multiple people that can be worked on. And those typically have more skills that you can bring to the table, like having one of the targets being a wizard who can be impressed with Arcana. It is a little weird that we have 5 people all trying to work the same person.

I do understand why we might need to work this NPC though. As the gm said, we're investigating the street fighting in the city and Vionia happens to be our only contact/suspect. And I think you're doing a great job, GM! These skill encounters are hard to pull off and keep interesting, especially in PbP.

Hornbori did not pick a skill but the only one that he could make was Perception so I went with it.

Good luck!

Is making a nature check an option to placate a lion?

After googling what placate means.

make (someone) less angry or hostile.
"they attempted to placate the students with promises" ;) - that is for Avonatha and Emdi.

The answer is no, not really.

Nature rules states that you could command an animal unless it is hostile. Those lions are hostile towards you. I would imagine them being used for fighting in the arena, you could use magic to charm, calm there, etc.

But for now, I know no rules to convince them not to fight you.

I looked for a scenario and the animals are hostile towards you.

Hey Gents. Tomorrow I will have a bit crazy day, I might not be able to post, everything will come back to the norm on Friday.

Nature rules states that you could command an animal unless it is hostile. Those lions are hostile towards you.

But for now, I know no rules to convince them not to fight you.

Druids have a feature, and rangers can get a class feat, called Wild Empathy which allows them to use Diplomacy to Make an Impression. It would require (a) the feat or feature, (b) Diplomacy, and (c) 1 minute to parlay, but it's a common mechanism by which animals can be talked out of combat. But that's usually to avoid combat, not to stop it once it's begun.

I forgot to give Hero Point, my bad. It goes to Mirtha, for going towards the lions putting herself in danger, I hope she will come out of it in one piece

I agree. Making someone friendly wouldn't make them aid you. Heck, if it was an intelligent creature it might even still fight with us, but instead just go out of their way to use non-lethal tactics. It's kind of up to the GM what they think the NPC would do, which is why I do t think I've ever seen a player use charm in a game before. It's just so much more reliable to color spray them. But I was inspired by Emdi asking if they could be influenced and I do t know if I'll ever get a good chance to use charm again.

Holy cats! I go away for a day and there've been 31 posts!

(unless you know some rules about it).

I asked because I was wanting to see if the scenario had a carve out for using Nature instead of Wild Empathy.

As Emdi points out, per RAW, you would typically need Wild Empathy in this situation. However, I have seen published PFS content that will explicitly allow Nature to be used on animals in a potential combat situation. The caveat is that the scenario usually says the creature is not hostile towards the PCs i.e. the animal only attacks if provoked, or something to that effect. If the creatures are coded to attack, then I would not expect Nature to work. But you don't know if you don't ask.

Some scenarios do not translate well to online.

Ok, I am back. I took the vaccine and drove 200 km. Fingers crossed on transforming into an orc ;) or at least a goblin

Do you have to kill the lions? No, but the scenario does not really have a way to not fight them. Non-lethal damage only counts for the 'last hit'.

However, I also don't mind you stabilizing the lions after the fight, you need to defend from them and not slaughter them.

That works studying nature magic she would not necessarily want to kill these lions.

I hope that there are no major effects from the vaccine. All I got was a sore arm both times.

No orcish tusks, nor green skin :( It did not break my way.

Back to the fight.

The wizardess will look into her bag to see for rations and will throw some at the scrawny lions to see if they will eat that.

Actions as above are usually made based on some assumptions and our understanding of the world. In RPG world is shaped by GM so his assumptions and understanding are the ones that rule the world within the scenario (even if they are completely false). That is why I will share my assumptions letting you decide if you want to try the trick with rations or not.

TLDR Your action will have 10% chance for lion to check what you thrown. But it will be back attacking you after that.

This scenario consists of 3 fights: 2 easy and one challenging. The enemy had a good first round, that round is not over yet and there could be more surprises coming your way. I know that the first two fights might have made you believe that this scenario is a walk in the park, that is why I am writing this post.

I strongly suggest for you use all the tools that you have. I am not a GM that tries to kill his teams, I root for the players but when doing the fight I will try to win to make it a challenge for you.

So @Avonatha - please confirm if you want to try the trick with the food or make a new action

So the only way to beat the lions is to fight them?