I read a reaction that the class adjustment for playing a monster was dropped by paizo. I havent heard anything about this... I am interested in playing a lycanthrope but not if it costs class levels. What are the good rules to follow and in what book are they?
Level Adjustment is dead.
Long live: "Dont take class levels until you skipped a number equal to the monster's CR"
Yes. Totally different.
So for example a weretiger cr4, counts as a level 4 pc? If 1 take 1 level of barbarian, i need the amounth of xp for a 5th level pc or do i start with the xp with the amounth of a 1st level pc??
Where can i find this new rule in the books?
Weretiger CR4 is equal to a 5th level PC. My mistake. Normal characters have a CR of their PC class levels (Ranger, Fighter, Wizard, etc / not Adept, Commoner, etc.) -1.
A Human Fighter 5 is a CR 4 encounter.
So before the Weretiger could take his 1st class level as Barbarian he'd need to get enough XP that would put a Human at 6th level. As he is naturally the equal of a 5th level PC.
It is a rough way to enable players to play monsters. It is not very balanced! Strongly depending on the combination of base monster and the added classes it can be overpowered, or very weak. The DM can and should add further adjustments in this case to bring the true pwoerlevel of a monster-PC and his mates to about equal.
Weretiger CR4 is equal to a 5th level PC. My mistake. Normal characters have a CR of their PC class levels (Ranger, Fighter, Wizard, etc / not Adept, Commoner, etc.) -1.
A Human Fighter 5 is a CR 4 encounter.
So before the Weretiger could take his 1st class level as Barbarian he'd need to get enough XP that would put a Human at 6th level. As he is naturally the equal of a 5th level PC.
It is a rough way to enable players to play monsters. It is not very balanced! Strongly depending on the combination of base monster and the added classes it can be overpowered, or very weak. The DM can and should add further adjustments in this case to bring the true pwoerlevel of a monster-PC and his mates to about equal.
Not sure where you are getting all of that:
If you are including a single monster character in a group of standard characters, make sure the group is of a level that is at least as high as the monster's CR. Treat the monster's CR as class levels when determining the monster PC's overall levels. For example, in a group of 6th-level characters, a minotaur (CR 4) would possess 2 levels of a core class, such as barbarian.
The rules of that section recommend either that everyone begin play as monsters with a previously specified CR or that the party be of an appropriate level before the monster PC is even allowed. There are no rules given for a single monster PC in a level 1 group and just waiting for enough XP to level up to their CR before gaining class levels.
For monster PC advancement the rules say this:
Note that in a mixed group, the value of racial Hit Dice and abilities diminish as a character gains levels. It is recommended that for every 3 levels gained by the group, the monster character should gain an extra level, received halfway between the 2nd and 3rd levels. Repeat this process a number of times equal to half the monster's CR, rounded down. Using the minotaur example, when the group is at a point between 6th and 7th level, the minotaur gains a level, and then again at 7th, making him a minotaur barbarian 4. This process repeats at 10th level, making him a minotaur barbarian 8 when the group reaches 10th level. From that point onward, he gains levels normally.
read Blood of The Moon
also look at the lycanthrope template, the CR increase is only a +1
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/templates/lycanthrope
Weretiger CR4 is equal to a 5th level PC. My mistake. Normal characters have a CR of their PC class levels (Ranger, Fighter, Wizard, etc / not Adept, Commoner, etc.) -1.
A Human Fighter 5 is a CR 4 encounter.
So before the Weretiger could take his 1st class level as Barbarian he'd need to get enough XP that would put a Human at 6th level. As he is naturally the equal of a 5th level PC.
It is a rough way to enable players to play monsters. It is not very balanced! Strongly depending on the combination of base monster and the added classes it can be overpowered, or very weak. The DM can and should add further adjustments in this case to bring the true pwoerlevel of a monster-PC and his mates to about equal.
the weretiger is CR 4 because of 4 levels of rogue and the the +1 CR from the template
read Blood of The Moon
also look at the lycanthrope template, the CR increase is only a +1
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/templates/lycanthrope
A Skinwalker would be good compromise. Good call.
Basically just factor the CR of the lycanthrope into what you throw at the party, rather than punishing the character that has the template.
The OP is the one making the character so has no control over what the GM is going to do and if the GM is running a published module or adventure path he/she may not want to have to adjust every encounter.
Personally as a GM I would not allow a lycanthrope character but would compromise with the Skinwalker race from Blood of the Moon if they really wanted something like that.
Even the rough CR=character level method that kinda sorta works for something like a minotaur is not a good measure here. The high DR/silver is relatively easy for characters to overcome, thus the low-ish CR adjustment for the template, but will be tremendously good in most encounters vs. monsters. I would not allow this; instead a skinwalker captures the flavor pretty well and would be what I'd recommend.
Even the rough CR=character level method that kinda sorta works for something like a minotaur is not a good measure here. The high DR/silver is relatively easy for characters to overcome, thus the low-ish CR adjustment for the template, but will be tremendously good in most encounters vs. monsters. I would not allow this; instead a skinwalker captures the flavor pretty well and would be what I'd recommend.
Right, nothing in the CR 1-3 range that a level 1 or 2 party is going to face is going to be any threat whatsoever.
I'm fine with lycanthrope characters at my table, and I give such players a choice: be one level behind the others OR level on the next slowest XP track (medium if the rest of the party is on fast, for example).
Also, I have been considering making silver an ACTUAL weakness.
I'm fine with lycanthrope characters at my table, and I give such players a choice: be one level behind the others OR level on the next slowest XP track (medium if the rest of the party is on fast, for example).
note, that 1 level behind is basically always better since being slower xp track can end up getting you multiple levels behind rather than just 1.
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Basically just factor the CR of the lycanthrope into what you throw at the party, rather than punishing the character that has the template.The OP is the one making the character so has no control over what the GM is going to do and if the GM is running a published module or adventure path he/she may not want to have to adjust every encounter.
Personally as a GM I would not allow a lycanthrope character but would compromise with the Skinwalker race from Blood of the Moon if they really wanted something like that.
Well Templates aren't something you can get without the GM's permission so they're already modifying the campaign.
Another thing is to give everyone a template or boon so that they're equivalent CR now.
But again if the GM doesn't want to alter encounters for stronger or lucky characters and/or tactical players, um...
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I'd avoided posting here, since it's not an official Paizo product, but since others are doing so, here it goes ... :)
The just-released Advanced Races Compendium hard cover from Kobold Press, has an entire chapter devoted to playing a natural lycanthope (specifically the werelion)
It's well-worth checking out!
If a player wants to play a lycanthrope, he should play a natural lycanthrope and follow the guidelines for playing a character of a powerful race.
The guidelines for playing a powerful race links to monsters as PCs which was already quoted above, so I see no need to reproduce that info. Since lycanthrope is +1 CR, you treat that as equivalent to 1 class level. The CR of a PC is equal to the number of class levels they have: CR of a 0HD race with PC class levels = levels - 1, and PC wealth gives it a +1 bump, ergo CR of a 0HD PC = levels -- I'm deriving this from the rules for NPCs which say "A classed NPC encountered with no gear should have his CR reduced by 1 (provided that loss of gear actually hampers the NPC), while a classed NPC that instead has gear equivalent to that of a PC (as listed on Table: Character Wealth by Level) has a CR of 1 higher than his actual CR."; I see no reason this wouldn't apply to PCs as well. So, a PC with 1 class level and the lycanthrope template would be CR 2. By the monsters as PCs rules, that means they'll be one level behind until halfway between levels 2 and 3, where they gain an extra level and are now caught up to the rest of the PCs.
So, a PC with 1 class level and the lycanthrope template would be CR 2. By the monsters as PCs rules, that means they'll be one level behind until halfway between levels 2 and 3, where they gain an extra level and are now caught up to the rest of the PCs.
Actually the lycanthrope is 1 level ahead if all are starting at 1st level. The lycanthrope levels slower so that the PCs catch up. However, as stated in an earlier post the DR 10/Silver, which is easy for characters to overcome, is going to be virtually untouchable by early game creatures.
So, a PC with 1 class level and the lycanthrope template would be CR 2. By the monsters as PCs rules, that means they'll be one level behind until halfway between levels 2 and 3, where they gain an extra level and are now caught up to the rest of the PCs.Actually the lycanthrope is 1 level ahead if all are starting at 1st level. The lycanthrope levels slower so that the PCs catch up. However, as stated in an earlier post the DR 10/Silver, which is easy for characters to overcome, is going to be virtually untouchable by early game creatures.
By RAW, such a character could not be introduced until the other PCs are level 2, so that hypothetical would only be true if rules were being ignored. Considering this is in Rules Questions instead of Advice, I ignored that possibility.
From a non-rules standpoint, there are numerous things the GM can do in order to mitigate DR 10/silver being amazingly good early on -- making monsters arbitrarily have silver natural attacks is dumb, but social pressures could be put on the PC to not transform for every combat (say, the first few levels are a city/urban adventure where someone shapeshifting would very quickly get a lot of unwanted attention).
By RAW, such a character could not be introduced until the other PCs are level 2, so that hypothetical would only be true if rules were being ignored. Considering this is in Rules Questions instead of Advice, I ignored that possibility.So, a PC with 1 class level and the lycanthrope template would be CR 2. By the monsters as PCs rules, that means they'll be one level behind until halfway between levels 2 and 3, where they gain an extra level and are now caught up to the rest of the PCs.Actually the lycanthrope is 1 level ahead if all are starting at 1st level. The lycanthrope levels slower so that the PCs catch up. However, as stated in an earlier post the DR 10/Silver, which is easy for characters to overcome, is going to be virtually untouchable by early game creatures.
You are right, forgot about that.
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You are right, forgot about that.By RAW, such a character could not be introduced until the other PCs are level 2, so that hypothetical would only be true if rules were being ignored. Considering this is in Rules Questions instead of Advice, I ignored that possibility.So, a PC with 1 class level and the lycanthrope template would be CR 2. By the monsters as PCs rules, that means they'll be one level behind until halfway between levels 2 and 3, where they gain an extra level and are now caught up to the rest of the PCs.Actually the lycanthrope is 1 level ahead if all are starting at 1st level. The lycanthrope levels slower so that the PCs catch up. However, as stated in an earlier post the DR 10/Silver, which is easy for characters to overcome, is going to be virtually untouchable by early game creatures.
Um, no. What you're suggesting is LA, which Pathfinder doesn't use. The rules you linked suggest treating them as a level equivalent if the race they're playing has racial HD.
The Lycanthrope template gives no HD so you could play one straight from first level.
Um, no. What you're suggesting is LA, which Pathfinder doesn't use. The rules you linked suggest treating them as a level equivalent if the race they're playing has racial HD.
The Lycanthrope template gives no HD so you could play one straight from first level.
Correct, it does not give any HD. However, the Lycanthrope rules state that if a player wishes to play as a lycanthrope, they should use the monsters as PCs rules (see my first post in this thread for reference -- the formatting on the page is a bit messed up so you'll need to scroll right to read it all possibly, it's way at the bottom of the page). Since that rule tells us to use these sets of rules, I worked out a means of doing so despite the fact that lycanthropy is an inherited template (for natural lycanthropes) instead of a race that has racial HD that does not in any way violate, contradict, or retrofit the rules presented in the monsters as PCs section (which care about CR, not HD). Specifically, the following quote seems like it would apply: "There are a number of monsters in this book that do not possess racial Hit Dice. Such creatures are the best options for player characters, but a few of them are so powerful that they count as having 1 class level, even without a racial Hit Die. Such characters should only be allowed in a group that is 2nd-level or higher." Furthermore, this sentence also applies and does not mention racial HD at all: "If you are including a single monster character in a group of standard characters, make sure the group is of a level that is at least as high as the monster's CR. Treat the monster's CR as class levels when determining the monster PC's overall levels." Additionally, the sentence about gaining extra levels equal to 1/2 CR does not mention that it only applies to monsters with racial HD either, even though the flavor of the section mentions them.
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Correct, it does not give any HD. However, the Lycanthrope rules state that if a player wishes to play as a lycanthrope, they should use the monsters as PCs rules (see my first post in this thread for reference -- the formatting on the page is a bit messed up so you'll need to scroll right to read it all possibly, it's way at the bottom of the page). Since that rule tells us to use these sets of rules, I worked out a means of doing so despite the fact that lycanthropy is an inherited template (for natural lycanthropes) instead of a race that has racial HD that does not in any way violate, contradict, or retrofit the rules presented in the monsters as PCs section (which care about CR, not HD). Specifically, the following quote seems like it would apply: "There are a number of monsters in this book that do not possess racial Hit Dice. Such creatures are the best options for player characters, but a few of them are so powerful that they count as having 1 class level, even without a racial Hit Die. Such characters should only be allowed in a group that is 2nd-level or higher." Furthermore, this sentence also applies and does not mention racial HD at all: "If you are including a single monster character in a group of standard characters, make sure the group is of a level that is at least as high as the monster's CR. Treat the monster's CR as class levels when determining the monster PC's overall levels." Additionally, the sentence about gaining extra levels equal to 1/2 CR does not mention that it only applies to monsters with racial HD either, even though the flavor of the section mentions them.Um, no. What you're suggesting is LA, which Pathfinder doesn't use. The rules you linked suggest treating them as a level equivalent if the race they're playing has racial HD.
The Lycanthrope template gives no HD so you could play one straight from first level.
Ah, yeah, had to zoom out in order to read that bit.
Hmm, that is bit of an odd disconnect. On one hand the Lycanthrope rules point to the Monsters as PCs rule, while on the other the Monsters as PCs rules are openly vague and don't mention templates at all, just specifically monster races. Though annoying at not mentioning templates at all it's how vague the MaPC rules are in playing races that's aggravating, since the Lycanthrope rules specifically say "using the rules for playing a Powerful Race" but the MaPC rules just says some are more powerful than others, so maybe?
The vagueness is annoying.
I'll definitely agree with you there, it is not well-specified at all. I seem to recall taking a good hour or two trying to piece everything together initially when I wanted to roll up a lycanthrope PC; once I discovered by RAW (or as I interpreted RAW at least) that it was level 2+, I was very sad. I'd love it if Horror Adventures greatly expanded on lycanthropy, including means of playing one starting at level 1 (because sometimes skinwalkers just don't cut it).