GM TOP #3-16: The Midnight Mauler (Standard, Foxes) (Inactive)

Game Master Pete H.

Hello Skulk, discussion stuff is posted in this thread. I have players fill their info into the slides for the game (pending), so no need to add it here. You are welcome to make dayjob rolls here or in gameplay during your introductions though. You can also wait till the end of the session to make them.

I tend to prefer in game questions to just use the OOC tags in the gameplay thread so everything is kept in the same place.

But you all are welcome to use this for non-game related discourse or general pathfinder chat!

Profession (Shrine Maiden): 1d20 + 7 ⇒ (15) + 7 = 22

Wow, a decent Profession roll! Love when that happens :D

Performance {act} Take 10: 10 + 16 = 26

If I have a re-roll left at the end, I may use it.

No day job for Phidöe.

Just a quick note on how Flagbearer works.

When I am holding my flag (The Skulk written in Tien) every ally within 30' of me has a constant +1 MORALE bonus on rolls To Hit/Damage and saves vs FEAR. THIS DOES NOT STACK WITH BLESS, but it does free up a slot for anyone who would cast it as well as improve action economy. It stacks with 'Inspire' (now 17 rounds a day) which now offers a +2 COMPETENCE bonus on To Hit & Damage rolls.

This means (usually) by the end of my first round, most everyone should be a +3 to hit / +3 to damage / +2 to saves vs Fear &/or Charm. The bonus should include pets, companions, and summoned creatures as well.

This is great for Phidöe and flurry of blows. You probably already know about them but if not two things that go super well with this build are Banner of the Ancient Kings (18,000 gp!, which also means that you need 36 fame! so it's probably a ways off) and also singing steel material (can use for a weapon, armor, or shield) which lets you change the type of action it is to start a bardic performance (e.g. if it's normally a move action it becomes a swift). My oracle with one level of bard has gotten a lot of mileage out of these.

Yep, those are both on my radar. I am waiting until next level (free-booter ranger) when I can qualify for the naginata. Then I will slap all the things on there (namely the singing steel and the returning weapon property. That way if my banner is taken from me, I can simply call it back to my hand. Then it will also be time to build towards dazzling display to intimidate the bad guys. I have some long-term plans, and expensive ones at that (though technically I could get the singing steel on a buckler, ring it for the bonus, and then not actually use it for AC. Still, 7k is a STEEP price to pay, but it is all about the action economy.

So Phidöe, now that you have Mouser, how are we handling a foe leaving your square?

Iirc, the Limb Climber was ambiguous about that kind of thing and required a GM ruling but the Mouser is very clear, should we just use the Mouser rules?

Sorry again for the slow posting. Life feels a bit full these days. Appreciate your patience.

So Phidöe, now that you have Mouser, how are we handling a foe leaving your square?

Iirc, the Limb Climber was ambiguous about that kind of thing and required a GM ruling but the Mouser is very clear, should we just use the Mouser rules?

When I get a chance I'll write up my suggestion for how to interpret the intersection of the rules for the two archetypes. In a nutshell, I think it makes the most sense to consider that Phidöe has two additional (and not mutually exclusive) "conditions" available to him: "Limb Climbing" and "Underfoot." The former requires making a Climb check and, given that he's Tiny, I think we've decided that this moves him into the target's square (or maybe we decided that he has to be in the target's square before he can attempt the climb check? I can't remember but I think that's how I've been playing it). The latter simply requires that he be in the same square as a foe, regardless of whether or not he is also climbing on them.

So...

Limb Climber: need a Climb check that beats the target's CMD. This doesn't provoke (though entering the target's square would) and isn't considered grappling but I think we've agreed that if the target moves then Phidöe moves with them. Mechanically, the only impact of Limb Climber is that the target takes a penalty on attacks (only against Phidöe) of -2 (i.e. the number of sneak attack dice he has).

Underfoot: if Phidöe is in the same square as a foe, that foe has a -4 penalty on attack rolls against anyone other than Phidöe. My allies are considered to flank the foe as long as they are adjacent to it. Phidöe is considered to flank the foe (important because he now has 2d6 sneak attack) "if he is adjacent to an ally who is also adjacent to the foe." (I'm actually not sure how this wouldn't be the case if any ally was adjacent to the foe...). Phidöe can leave the foe's square without provoking an AoO but if the foe attempts to move away it provokes an AoO from him.

Underfoot Assault can get you into the foe's square when the foe misses you, if you spend the 1 panache cost. So that looks like a different way to enter the opponent's square.

The grey area for me is this: if you enter the foe's square a different way (such as by using Limb Climber, or just walking into its square because you are Tiny) do you get the benefits of Underfoot Assault? (-4 to hit allies, flanking with allies etc)

Here is one thing I have a question about right now.

1) Phidoe climbs the enemy.
2) The enemy 'leaves' Phidoe's square.
3) Does Phidoe automatically move with them or does he have the option to choose to allow them to leave the square.

I'm not sure if we exactly all agreed how that worked last time. I guess it doesn't matter if Phidoe never wishes to let go, though.

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If you climbed a large or bigger creature I'm pretty sure you would have to choose which square you were climbing in each round. That could technically make an ally not adjacent to you but still adjacent to the enemy. It would be a very very uncommon situation though considering your mobility.

When I GM'd, my ruling was that Phidoe moves with the enemy if the enemy moves, since he's "attached" to them. (If you climb a mountain and the mountain moves, you don't automatically drop to the ground, for example, and your Familiar Scorpion doesn't have to match your move speed in order to keep up with you if he's riding your shoulder!)

RePete is doing well, but his plate in life has been doubled... then tripled and then he got an extra scoop on top of that. He is going to bow out of our current games (pfs1 and pfs2) and hopefully be back to a somewhat normal level of irl difficulty by the time the next ones start up.

Once we hear from Toshiko we can start up this scenario.

Aw...bummer. I hope he's taking care of himself.

As to the Phidoe issue, is the movement with a target already covered somewhere? Let's take the last game for example. Say Onna ran up to the manticore and was able to climb on to it's back somehow, (but not grapple it). When it took flight, would Onna automatically go along with it? Would she tumble off and on to the ground (staying in the same square)?

While I see the logic of the scorpion familiar, that is a situation where both parties want to stay together. SUch will not be the case for Phidoe. That said, barring any rule introduced to the contrary, I think he would move with the target. I mean, it feels like the target could make a roll to knock him off and then move. Maybe an attack roll vs Phidoe CMD to toss him to the ground?

Also, what happens if someone throws Phidoe at a target (ala 'Fastball Special')? Is there an Attack of Opportunity? Would they need a feat like Deflect Arrow? WOuld Phidoe have to delay or have a readied action so that on his turn he can then grab or otherwise interact with the target?

I'm good with the following 'rulings', they seem to make the most sense and fit with the existing rules.

1) If a creature leaves phidoe's square and he is currently climbing them, he goes with them. If he were climbing a statue and it animated and moved, he wouldn't just 'fall off'. That, iirc, is what we did last game. We do still need to figure out if he gets the 'option' to let them leave or not.

2) The Reposition Combat Maneuver* seems like the best way for a creature to yoink Phidoe off them.

*Though... Grapple, by RAW, also might work. Once you grapple someone you immediately place them in an adjacent square so more discussion on that maybe? That might also open up a massive can of worms related to the 'grab' ability so... ugh.

3) I don't believe there are any official rules for throwing characters. Is that something we are planning to do? If so we can start working out a sequence of actions/rolls to make that work.

C'mon, why would we NOT throw him? He's g++&%#ned Scrappy-Do, but cool and not annoying! Plus, we are starting to get to the levels where telekinesis. flight and other modes of transport open up. Why not drink a potion and fly above a BBEG and drop Phidoe on him/her/them/it?

I didn't say we couldn't, I just said there doesn't seem to be a very clear set of rules relating to it.

Okay, so firstly we have the 'throw' issue. Obviously a -4 non-proficiency penalty to the throw, but I'm thinking it would target touch (for these purposes... but if it was to damage the enemy then both he and it would take damage and it would target normal ac).

At that point, normally Phidoe would just fall off, but if he had a readied action to climb onto the enemy, then I don't see any further issues assuming the climb on was successful. Obviously he is limited to just the 'climbing on' part that round; but for a flying enemy, this would be a smart way to pull off him getting on them.

And yes, the movement would provoke just as it normally does to get close to a character. There would likely not be an acrobatics check allowed to avoid an AoO since he isn't exactly moving under his own power/control.

Any agreements/disagreements/other thoughts are more than welcome.

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P.S. Scrappy-Do was the best character on the show because he represented the nerds geeking out over the show and gave a glimpse into how annoying we can be.

*cough*

I mean, how awesome it is to talk about all our nerdy things! :D

No, no, no!

Scrappy-do was an abomination :p

I love the fastball special :)

I think a ranged touch attack, range increment probably set to 10' because Phidöe isn't very aerodynamic, with a non-proficient penalty is fair.

Also I think Phidöe would need to ready an action to 'climb' if we hit, otherwise he and the target take damage and he drops to the ground.

I would give Phidöe an acrobatics check to avoid the AoO though, probably at a penalty. I envision him tumbling and somersaulting to land gracefully on the target. "He flies through the air with the greatest of ease..."

See, now every time Phidoe charges into battle, I'm gonna hear... y'know.

I agree with Ikari, Scrappy was the WORST.

By the way, all of this tossing around of Phidoe is assuming his consent.

Plus, I know he is 'tiny', but how much does he weigh. I don't think Onna will be throwing anyone without magical assistance.

I can totally see Hiiragi throwing the "dog", even without his consent :O

“It seemed the fastest way of getting him into an advantageous position! Far away from me.”

Touching it with her hands? I thought she would kick him like a futbol in the best case.

Really more of a “using her flail as a golf club” situation tbh

Quiet announcer voice... The Shield-maiden lines up her shot on 16. Slight wind from the southwest. She'll have to put some extra club into it to clear the water hazard.

Hiragii, in checkered pants and a sweater vest, pulls her flail back and swings with all her enlarged might. "FORE... legs, some teeth, and tiny little tail!"

Now I'm trying to figure out whether that'd be a good look on her, hmm...

I think she'd rock it??

Especially when she completes the ensemble with a proper golf cap.

All the talk of throwing Phidöe has him positively bouncing up and down and wagging his tail with excitement. He quickly grabs a stick and crudely sketches in the dirt a design for a 'dog catapult.'

Underfoot Assault can get you into the foe's square when the foe misses you, if you spend the 1 panache cost. So that looks like a different way to enter the opponent's square.[/ooc]

Yep.

The grey area for me is this: if you enter the foe's square a different way (such as by using Limb Climber, or just walking into its square because you are Tiny) do you get the benefits of Underfoot Assault? (-4 to hit allies, flanking with allies etc)

RAW, it seems to me that simply being in the foe's square grants those advantages, regardless of how you got there.

Also I think Phidöe would need to ready an action to 'climb' if we hit, otherwise he and the target take damage and he drops to the ground.

I would give Phidöe an acrobatics check to avoid the AoO though, probably at a penalty. I envision him tumbling and somersaulting to land gracefully on the target. "He flies through the air with the greatest of ease..."

I think it has to be one or the other. Either Phidoe is holding still ready to climb OR he is trying to spin and tumble to avoid the attack. Especially considering that if he is using his standard to 'ready to climb' he won't even have his move action while 'flying' to attempt an acrobatics to tumble. Don't forget though, even if they get an AoO it isn't like he doesn't have his normal AC.

And yes, I agree with Phidoe that when he is in their square, regardless of how he gets there, he gets the Mouser benefits.

P.S. Hiraagi would be the hotness in the right golfer outfit.

I don't quite follow. Couldn't Phidöe spend a move action to tumble and a standard to ready a climb attempt?

I don't think so:

Readying an Action: You can ready a standard action, a move action, a swift action, or a free action. To do so, specify the action you will take and the conditions under which you will take it. Then, anytime before your next action, you may take the readied action in response to that condition. The action occurs just before the action that triggers it. If the triggered action is part of another character’s activities, you interrupt the other character. Assuming he is still capable of doing so, he continues his actions once you complete your readied action. Your initiative result changes. For the rest of the encounter, your initiative result is the count on which you took the readied action, and you act immediately ahead of the character whose action triggered your readied action.

You can only ready for a single action. In this case, it would be to land on the target.

Now, if we just call the 'fastball special' flavor, then he could charge, in which case he could use acrobatics, I think.

A'ight but what if the Thrower is the one who readies, and this all happens on Phidoe's turn?

Yeah, this is all getting to be too much. Maybe you should play a cat. They are disinterested and aloof. They would just watch the combat, and if they were thrown, we know they would land on their feet. If one of use were to be knocked down, they could just come over and stare at us. Maybe hiss or something. Name could be changed to Ki'Tee.

I mean, none of this is useful, but I thought I would offer other options.

Maybe a guinea pig?

I guess we have enough variance we shall just let the GM make the call as to how it works if this is ever used.

I don't think it'll be common though as it would require an enemy within 50 feet AND a very big penalty on the throw (minimum -4, very likely much higher than that).

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But... SLIDES ARE UP!!!

Please fill out your information on pages 1 and 2. I'm leaving a spot for Toshiko if she shows in the next few days. Otherwise I'll get us started in gameplay today and we can go rock some baddies!

Sorry for the slow posting everyone. It may be a few more days before things settle down a bit. Please don't let me hold up the action - feel free to bot me as needed and I'll post when I can.

So, I am thinking of asking around town to learn more about the ex-lover and family so we can come up with a cover story to talk to them. I'm thinking of showing up as someone from the government, but I don't know the best tactic yet. Maybe 'help us find your boyfriend and you might be unbanished'.

Unless someone else has a better idea.

TOP, would that be a Know: Local?

Nobility or Local, your choice.

I make no guarantees as to the validity or usefulness of the information gained though, but it might make it more fun.

Ikari approves of the idea, Onna :)

Re the clip, lol! Dune is one of my favorite books, and my friends and I were all huge fans of the Police when the movie came out, though I didn't think too much of them casting Sting as Feyd. Seeing this clip now though I'm reconsidering - maybe it was a good choice after all (even if the movie itself was pretty weak)

So this is interesting. I loved that movie. Very formative to me for my enjoyment of science fiction.

But I've heard from other people who have also read the books that they also thought the movie was bad. I'm guessing it was just very different from the books, which definitely happens most of the time. But for a person who never read the books, the movie was amazing.

The first book was a staple of my adolescence that I read over and over. I still go back and reread it every few years. If you like fantasy/scifi at all you have a great treat waiting for you! Books 2 and 3 are much more uneven, worth reading to follow the unfolding story arc but not "classics" in my opinion. The books that came afterwards, which were written much much later, are unreadably bad.

There's also a ?made for tv serial? version of the book that I've seen that is much better. And I think they are supposedly remaking the movie - will be interesting to see how that turns out. The story is really too long to fit into a single movie in any reasonable way.

I love the film Dune, but haven't read the book(s).

I also have an old (avalon hill?) boardgame of Dune which is awesome, but I probably haven't played it in 20 years :o

Does enlarge person even work when someone's in Fox Shape? I don't think it does, I'm sure there's a rule that says you can only have one size-altering affect operating at once.

It does not.

You can only be affected by one polymorph spell at a time. If a new polymorph spell is cast on you (or you activate a polymorph effect, such as wild shape), you can decide whether or not to allow it to affect you, taking the place of the old spell. In addition, other spells that change your size have no effect on you while you are under the effects of a polymorph spell.

I’d have to look closely at your caravan bond thing and domain ability, but it probably is at least RAI that it would not work.

This might also be a great opportunity for Phidoe to consider some crazy character growth. Maybe something like exploring who he actually is and his possible Kitsune shape so he could shift out and help in these cases? Lotta ways it could go and no reason he has to do anything, tis just a thought. (But it would beeee aweeesome for him to randomly pop out of pupper form someday!)

Enlarge Person is a Transmutation, but not a Polymorph effect. The spell description says "multiple magical effects that increase size do not stack".

I can't find the specific rule I am looking for.

It does not.

You can only be affected by one polymorph spell at a time. If a new polymorph spell is cast on you (or you activate a polymorph effect, such as wild shape), you can decide whether or not to allow it to affect you, taking the place of the old spell. In addition, other spells that change your size have no effect on you while you are under the effects of a polymorph spell.

Beast Shape, what Phidoe is constantly under, is a polymorph effect.

Derp. I missed that part you bolded. I knew the rule was there somewhere!

Thanks GM :)

Yep, I agree completely about this ruling. I think Phidöe could still take advantage of another transmutation effect, like Strong Jaw (or Lead Blades or Shillelagh if he used a weapon) that doesn't actually change your size but I'm not 100% sure about that.

As to the GM's suggestion about leaving fox dog shape, when I first came up with the idea for the character I was really intrigued by the question of whether it was viable to have a character who never left his animal form. The three big issues that I could see were: tiny size, no hands, no language (which is dealt with by having a ring of eloquence - that's also why he was basically unplayable until level 4). I still think the no hands issue may turn out to be a deal breaker at some point (for example, in the current situation a swarmbane clasp would enable him to contribute - but can he put one on by himself in the heat of battle? I'm not sure, maybe not?). Oh, and another issue will probably be lack of ranged options and/or ability to challenge flying opponents, though it has occurred to me that a dog riding around on a flying carpet is a pretty cool concept.

In any case, for now I think I'd like to stick with the 'never leave dog form or the Giants will find you' character concept, but if it becomes a recurrent problem in the future I'm open to reconsidering.