Outpost IV : PF1 #5-10 Where Mammoths Dare not Tread (Inactive)

Game Master Lance K

This is our discussion thread. Please post your out of character talk here, including deliberation about tactics and that sort of stuff.

Player Name: PDK
Character Name: Raynor Cordite
PFS #: 4456-9
Faction: SC
Standard Advancement or Slow?: Standard
Dayjob: Profession Sailor: 1d20 + 19 ⇒ (11) + 19 = 30

Put your information in my slides please. I like to have everyone's information in one place.

Gotcha. Done.

Just a heads up, Raynor, because no one has asked about how you're getting to the Realm of the Mammoth Lords. Aram Zey is going to teleport your party in, and that has a limit to how many creatures can be brought in. You can probably talk him into bringing with one of your mounts but he's not going to let you bring your valet with also and he's definitely not going to be able to teleport in a whole ship and crew. He's a powerful spellcaster, but not that strong.

No problem! the gecko will be sufficient. Question: do you think the riding gecko can operate in this climate? if not I can buy a mount there. Cost of doing business... ;)

Edit: Standard Advancement or Slow?: Slow (slide updated)

Mmmmm....I don't treat reptiles any different than I would mammals when it comes to climate. Endure Elements is always nice to have though.

I will pick up two scrolls of Tongues for 2 PP.

i will grab 2 scrolls for 2 PP as well...may as well spend my PP...

Mykel, you are level 7, not level 6, right?

It looks like we are at an APL of exactly 9. That encounters are going to be the high tier with the four player adjustment.

Did not expect to find ourselves in a jungle with dinos here... I was expecting the land of ice and snow! :)

yes level 7...swash 6/brawler 1

GM, is it ok that Andor would have used his longterm buffs that have more than an hour duration after arriving and before the encounter?

Yes, the Realm of the Mammoth Lords is very weird. There are jungles and arctic tundra in the same region. The party is in a valley that's heated by geothermic springs, so the climate here is tropical.

Sure you can have long term buffs up. It's only been about 30 minutes between teleporting in and walking to this encounter.

Thanks GM, here are Andor's long term buffs:

Andor uses his extracts:
- Barkskin extract (80 minutes)
- Clay Skin (80 minutes)
- Darkvision (8 hours)
- heightened awareness (80 minutes)

He also uses:
- Mutagen Dexterity (80 minutes)
- alchemical grease (4 hours), and
- heroism potion via alchemical allocation extract (100 minutes with Extend Potion talent/discovery 1/5).

-

Note that the party will be doing a lot of walking between locations during this scenario so those 10 min/level buffs will go fast.

I will not retroactively announce them anymore and will state it clearly so that you know when he the buffs start.

@Andor - can we not attack the dinosaurs on sight and go after the demons? I can at least try to talk to the dino and possibly get them on our side.

Of course. Charging to the flying creature is possible. Exactly 60 ft. By the way: what are these things? What knowledge check?

They are 20 feet off the ground, so you might not be able to stand them. Also they are fiends, so it would be a Knowledge Planes to ID them.

And sorry Meylara, but you *usually* can't do Diplomacy in combat. It is an option occasionally, so I generally try to drop a few hints when it is an option. Spells that effect specifically target animals do work on dinosaurs though.

ok - guessing the Saurian Shaman ability that makes it a full round action to attempt the check against reptiles or dinosaurs instead of the normal 10 minutes doesn't matter?

Can I change my action then? I'll wild shape into an Allosaurus and get into position to charge the southern Vrock if that's an option.

Ok, everybody has a million archetypes and multiple classes along with all the buffs and items players have at this level, so it's easy to miss when something works a little differently than normal. Yes, Saurian Druids can do Wild Empathy as a full round action and the action should stand.

I would describe this particular dino as hostile though, rather than merely unfriendly. I'm going off how this creatures tactics are described in the text of the scenario to make that determination. So the check would be a few points short anyways.

The hints that this t-rex was bloodied with spear kinda tipped me that this one was beyond the 'friend zone'. Although I'll admit that Meylara's ability is pretty cool and so situational that it would be a sin for her not to try it when a dino shows up! :)

Wild shaping into a dinosaur is definitely super cool as well! :)

There's only ~45 hardcover books and hundreds of softcover books worth of material - you don't know all the things and all the possible interactions? For shame!

I'm good with the action standing. The check failed, I'll wild shape or do something else next round.

Okay, I think I misunderstood how opportune parry and riposte works. I went back and reread it and I realize that you can still get the riposte even if the attack would miss on its own, as long as your parry would still beat their attack. And you still spend the Panache, even if the attack would have missed anyways. For some reason I thought you only spent the Panache if the attack would have hit, but was blocked by the parry. I think Andor could have made an opportune riposte against the t-rex at one point, which I didn't count.

When it comes to enemies with reach, my assumption is that you can still opportune parry, but wouldn't be able to riposte unless they are threatened by you also.

Does that sound right?

You are completely right on all points GM.

I'd prefer talking about rule issues in discussion, so I'm just going to address them here.

Yeah grapple rules are fairly complex. Normally maintaining a grapple let's you do one specific action off a list, which includes moving the target up to half your speed, dealing damage with an unarmed, one handed or natural attack, or pinning the target. But then things like rake or constrict also allow you to do more damage or get in some free attacks.

I'm fine with averaging out healing. Keeping track of CLW charges is my least favorite thing about 1st edition.

So...natural spell only lets you cast spells in animal form. It explicitly does not allow you to speak or use spell trigger items. And spell trigger items are activated by speaking a word...so even with dino hands, Meylara is going to have to rely on someone else for healing or revert back to humanoid form. And when she talks it sounds like "Grggggggghhh.". (Actually I have know idea how dinosaurs sounded.)

I guess one thing that the Shifter did right, in the end, was to allow wildshape in increment of one-hour durations instead of the druid's 'times per day scheme'. It makes changing back and forth much more palatable.

@GM Meylara has a Ring of Eloquence, which explicitly lets her speak in the languages it grants regardless of her form, so she can speak Common, Dwarven, Elven or Gnome while wildshaped.

There's a feat that also allows it (Wild Speech I think), but the magic item is a much less constrained resource, especially for a druid.

Aha, I forgot that item existed! My apologies! That would free up a feat for a character idea I had if I ever go through with it. So yeah, there should technically be no reason that Meylara couldn't use a wand in Allosaurus form either.

Don't want to be a stick in the mud but as far as I know, druids need both Natural Spell and Wild Speech if they want to cast S and M/DF spells and activate magic items (respectively).

One could get away with only taking Wild Speech as long as they limit the casting of spells to V only spells and do the rest with scrolls and wands (still unsure as how they do that without opposable thumbs... maybe someone else is holding the scroll or wand for them? certain animal companion in the Organized Play FAQ are listed as being able to hold a wand, but that's a limited list of critters).

Ring of Eloquence just lets you speak in those four languages and gives you bonuses to Bluff, Diplomacy, Intimidate, and Perform (oratory).

Played a few druids along the years and the idea is that you buff yourself then say bye-bye to spellcasting while you're wild shaped and tearing things apart. ;)

For caster-type druids, people tend to take archetypes that trade away wildshape, as it becomes increasingly useless if you have a summoner's build, for example.

Addendum: allosaurus shape is fine for wand carrying, based on FAQ:

Companions in categories marked with an asterisk (*) are able to grasp and carry one object at a time in their paws, claws, or hands, including weapons, rods, wands, and staves, as long as their carrying capacity is sufficient

[...]

Avian* (armor, belt, eyes, head, headband, neck, ring, saddle, wrist): Archaeopteryx, axe beak, blackwisp egret, bustard, dimorphodon, dire bat, drake, eagle, enchanter heron, giant owl, giant raven, giant vulture, hawk, impaler shrike, moa, ornithomimosaur, owl, pteranodon, quetzalcoatlus, roc, trumpeter swan, whisperfall vulture, yolubilis heron
Biped [claws]* (armor, belt, chest, eyes, head, headband, neck, ring, shoulders, wrist): Allosaurus, ceratosaurus, chalicotherium, deinonychus, gigantosaurus, iguanodon, kangaroo, pachycephalosaurus, parasaurolophus, spinosaurus, theriznosaurus, troodon, tyrannosaurus, velociraptor
Biped [hands]* (all item slots): Ape, baboon, chimpanzee, devil monkey, homunculus (promethean alchemist archetype), megaprimatus

This gets super messy and complicated. And I don't think the giant FAQ entry on what items animals companions can use would apply to how things work for a character who is using a polymorph effect.

I personally wouldn't depend on using wands or scrolls in this form because as a rule I try not to rely on any class features that depend on whether or not a GM will rule in my favor. I think a ring of eloquence would allow you to use a spell trigger or completion item but I also think it would be reasonable for a GM to say no as none of Meylara's feats, items or abilities specifically allow for it.

Anyways, I think digging into the rules can be super fun sometimes! I don't know how many other people agree with me on that though.

Yeahh, a system as open as PF can get messy sometimes. ;-)

I'm fine with not being able to activate wands or scrolls in wild shape. I'll plan on it going forward and have someone else activate my wand when it comes up in the future.

Here's the relevant bit in regards to polymorph effects:

"When you cast a polymorph spell that changes you into a creature of the animal, dragon, elemental, magical beast, plant, or vermin type, all of your gear melds into your body. Items that provide constant bonuses and do not need to be activated continue to function while melded in this way (with the exception of armor and shield bonuses, which cease to function). Items that require activation cannot be used while you maintain that form. While in such a form, you cannot cast any spells that require material components (unless you have the Eschew Materials or Natural Spell feat), and can only cast spells with somatic or verbal components if the form you choose has the capability to make such movements or speak, such as a dragon. Other polymorph spells might be subject to this restriction as well, if they change you into a form that is unlike your original form (subject to GM discretion). If your new form does not cause your equipment to meld into your form, the equipment resizes to match your new size."

Gotcha, so item activation is explicitly called out in the polymorph rules for changes into a specific set of creature types. Seems crazy to me that they lump dragons into that but not aberrations...

Maybe there's no spell that allow you to change into an aberration, or maybe there wasn't at the time. Beast shape, giant form, dragon form, elemental form, etc. spells are out there but nothing comes to mind for aberration. There's Shapechange, but that's a level 9 spell I think.

In summary: do your buffing before you become Godzilla. When Godzilla, do Godzilla things! :)

There's the ever-so aptly named Ooze Form line, but they're pretty late in the history, being in UW.

https://www.aonprd.com/SpellDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Ooze%20Form%20I

...and good luck trying to get a PF1E FAQ addendum on the Core polymorph rule, especially when trying to include the ripple effects of anything that came out of UW... :P

Ooze form is not a shaman or druid spell though, so I don't think you'll ever have to worry about it. It 'does' imply that someone who casts oozeform would see all their gear drop to the ground at their feet though, which can be... annoying! :P

PS: some GMs may want to apply the same rules to oozes as those that apply to the oozemorph, as per the UW FAQ However, it is not RAW. By RAW, the rules say that if you morph in anything other than what is listed in the spell or polymorph section of the Core rules, the items you wear do not meld into your form. AFAIK, oozes don't have any magic item slots... extremely bad spell to cast at high levels, unless you absolutely need it and willing to part with all your equipment...

Interestingly, the cave druid archetype lets you take the form of an ooze but as per the 'beast shape spell' and you're considered 'a magical beast' which means are your magic items are melded normally.

However, if you're a wizard using ooze form spell, you're probably doing it for the odd times where you have to be naked (emergency spell for shower? bath time? bed time for those Kellid and Ulfen wizards out there? :P)

Don't get me wrong Meylara...I am fine with you using wands while in an animal form that happens to have hands. I think most GMs would probably allow it. But I had to look up at four different rules to come to that conclusion. Not that I mind because I actually have an idea for a shifter who believes that he is actually gorilla that has been the victim of a curse that makes him transform into a human against his will. Kind of like a reverse lycanthrope. So his goal would be to be in his gorilla form as much as possible.

So you want to build a were-human? interesting... :)

The idea is that he would have have been one of the surviving museum assistants from Mists of Mwangi and there lingering side effects, including the delusion that his true form is actually an ape. So yeah, a were-human.

Did we give them all the presents?

No, they were satisfied with the swords, due to also getting a good result on the Diplomacy check. If you had failed, you would have had to keep giving gifts until there was a success.

Thanks! Maybe we should keep the items for the next tribe?

Yep, you might need them later. Or maybe how many gifts you have to give away in this encounter is relevant for some other reason.

Re: travel, Gurkagh wears boots of the winterlands and (redundantly) a cold-weather outfit year-round. That's just how he rolls. So he's good temperature-wise. As far as he can tell, there doesn't seem to be any particular urgency about this mission, so he'll just amble along at his normal speed unless people are really pushy to go faster, in which case he has a few options.

Not trying to be a jerk about the exotic saddle, but it does seem unlikely that a relatively small town would happen to have a custom made saddle for a very specific dinosaur (that only appears in an AP!) just sitting around. I normally would follow the price limits for a town, but this is also a community that is particularly isolated from the civilized world so I think there are a lot of things that you probably could normally find in a settlement this size that just wouldn't be available here. Like a water clock.

Just to let you know, though, the party currently has no reason to think that they are under any kind of time constraint. And generally the party does get a hint if time is a factor. I wouldn't be surprised if an early scenario sprung this on the players as a success condition with absolutely no warning whatsoever, but even in that case I would still try to drop a few hints for you.