[Outpost III] GM Silbeg's 1-12 The Burden of Envy PFS2 (1-4) (Inactive)

Game Master Silbeg

I don't know where between 10 minute ad-hoc exploration activity and by-the-book minimum 4 day crafting activity putting together a makeshift raft is going to be according to the module, but if this were a home game I would lean towards the later and think that it's going to take a while to make something that can haul a 1500lb giant or a couple of kids safely, in which case I would then suggest clearing out the secret route now and leaving Baz behind at the bay to lash one together while the rest of the gang collects up the passengers.

I'm sure the module author has a different idea, but I hesitate to guess. Maybe we're expecting the adults & giant to swim? From Flitch's description that sounds like a bad idea. Anyway, I don't know.

As it is, I'll just wait for direction.

There are rules, and I will detail them out once you get back to the Rockfish Inn

Folks, just to let you know, I will be reporting the scenario today... so please confirm your reporting information, and let me know any needed corrections ASAP

Thanks!

Report away. Thank you!

Am all set.

confirmed.

Game is reported through the Outpost III reporting tool.

Should show up in the next few days.

I think the secret checks are the thing I dislike the most in this edition.
Nice loss of agency. And how do you hero point a roll you don't know the result of?

Anyway, just a thought as I wait for the bottom of the round to finally arrive. ;)

My biggest issue is edition muddling right now. I didn't roll a perception check in a 1e game I'm in, because it's a secret roll here. But I did roll a stealth check in this one, because it's not one in 1e! lol

Technically, there were secret checks in PF1 as well... they just weren't called out as obviously, and many GMs just ignored them.

As for Hero Points... you could tell the GM "Please use a hero point if I roll less than <insert number here>"

I definitely understand the multi-edition issue. I have to keep PF1, PF2 & Starfinder in my head. Playtest is still in there, but at least I don't have any 3.5 games any more!

I have no problem with secret rolls, whatever the system. I do not see it breaking any player agency.
I also tend to only roll skills when asked by the GM. That’s something that is less done in PbP, it has a tendency to speed up gameplay while I think it is the other way around in face to face games.
I think having secret rolls also helps avoiding metagaming. I remember a session where a player had a critical success but the information was so peculiar that the other players thought it was due to a critical failure. Had they known the rolls, they would have reacted very differently.

I avoided Playtest because I didn’t want to try to learn a system for a year; it would have also probably confused me with 2e rules.

Highwire, I am looking at force open and it looks like you need at least Expert in Athletics for this, if not Master.

I will let you choose another action.

It probably doesn't matter, but there is an obvious lock on the door.

Expert level DC is 20, so that would be a success on the roll, turned into a critical success due to the natural 20. If it was Master, the DC is 30 ... so the 23 would fail, but not critically fail ... so the natural 20 turns it into a success. Right?

Simple DCs table

The way I had read that was that you needed a certain level of proficiency to even attempt the task. I am very aware of the simple DC table, and I may be misremembering things because of playtest.

FYI - you did not roll a 23, you rolled a 21 because you did not have a crowbar you get a -2 on the roll.

So... since I cannot find what I thought was there, I am going compromise. The door will not be completely open, but there will be options.

Also, Highwire would know that cannot hard a lock or door by just punching it. He would have to, at the bare minimum, throw his shoulder into the door.

If i wasn't clear, this is not a padlock, but a standard in door lock.

Nice use of a hero point Fortiva, turning a 1 into a 20.

I remember having a conversation about that particular point (needing the required level indicated to even attempt the skill) with other GM. We agreed that it was only indicating the difficulty to be found in the DC tabel, not the required proficiency. It would have been clearer if they had used different terms to differentiate proficiency and difficulty.
(Also tell me if you find rules indicating that it should be the minimum skill level)

Just out of curiosity, can you help me understand where you're seeing these proficiencies?

see the link from Highwire, for example.

Trained/Expert/Master/Legendary

I mean in connection with force open. It's an untrained action, so I was wondering what would lead you to believe a certain level of proficiency would be required to attempt it. Does the module say "Expert Door" or something?

Then look at my link on "Force Open". It shows suggested difficulties

Again, just curious for future reference. My instinct is to look at the sample locked door obstacle and see that it's a hard or very hard athletics check, and base the DC on the party level (so, like 15 or 16) then add the +2 for hard difficulty.

I'm just wondering if I'm missing something or if it's just a table variation thing. I wouldn't care, but the variation between DC 18 and DC 30 is a pretty big one and I want to make sure I'm doing things in a reasonable way when I run.

EDIT: I see now that the example use of level-based DC makes the confusion even worse, because it implies that the level of the guy who built the door makes a difference! Nevermind, I don't think there's a way to definitively interpret these rules.

True, that is a wide spread. I think the problem is how much emphasis you put on the word "sturdy" vs. "flimsy" in the Athletics description.

I tend to think the "flimsy wooden door" described in the Athletics action is a normal wooden door (which I, in real life, would have a lot of trouble breaking down), whereas a "sturdy wooden door" would be one that's reinforced with metal and such, like you're trying to bust into a castle throne room or something. The Master-level task is, for comparison, equated with pulling apart metal bars.

So if a normal locked wooden door is an Expert level task of DC 20, the alternative that makes it a hard Locked Door Obstacle of DC 15-16 is a much more reasonable spread.

Given the map, I'm honestly surprised that going in through the courtyard isn't specifically accounted for in the scenario. Or, if it is, I imagine it assumes that a rogue would pick the lock.

The difference is the Simple DC list is taking an attitude of "this is the world and the rules are simulating it" while a significant portion of the rules, especially combat, take the attitude of "this a story and the challenges should be appropriate to the characters." While I think your and Tanaka's interpretation of how to use the simple DC table is technically correct, it's still basically saying that none of your characters should be reliably forcing open doors (except for some freakish door-forcing-open specialist) until the party is level 10, but I would venture to guess that this is not the expectation of a typical player.

I fall firmly in the camp that wants characters to do cool things, so I go directly to the level based DC table. Other DMs lean to simulating a world in which it's actually pretty dang hard to force open a door. I think PF2e has made an uncomfortable compromise between the two that doesn't quite work. For example, there's the -2 for not using a crowbar, but if the DC is 30, then the -2 is inconsequential, but in real life a crowbar would make a HUGE difference.

Basically, the crowbar rule says use the DC by level table, while the proximity of the Force open task list by proficiency says use the simple DC table. From there it's guesswork.

I’m under some work craziness. Will get a post in tonight or tomorrow.

It is definitely assuming that someone will pick the lock.

I am assuming that these are pretty sturdy reinforced wooden doors, as they are the doors to a warehouse, i.e., the primary defense of the things stored inside.

Also, to be brutally honest, I was only referencing CRB. The obstacle rule you are quoting is GMG.

So, the typical "lets release a new book and change all the rules from the previous"

Nice use of a hero point Fortiva, turning a 1 into a 20.

Yeah, was quite happy to see that!

Were I running a home game, I would adopt the Mutants and Masterminds bonus that you add ten to the reroll if it's 1-10. Meaning you always get 11-20 when you burn the point. Far more satisfying. :)

It is definitely assuming that someone will pick the lock.

Ironically, lock-picking is specifically called out in the core rules as something that is likely to be proficiency-gated. Now that it's not likely to occur, do you might revealing if the module gives a DC for picking it?

I now understand where you're coming from and it makes perfect sense, but I'm wondering. From a design perspective, it might make sense to have the untrained check more difficult than the trained check, but by how much?

It is a simple lock, so you would use the DC for that.
locks

Hey, just wanted to check in on this. I know it's a holiday weekend in the US, and several of us will probably be caught up in PaizoCon games next week. Is it safe to assume that this adventure will not be completed by next Friday? I was going to run Highwire in a PaizoCon game, but if he won't be free, I'll begin planning to run someone else.

I am sorry.
I don’t think Highwire will be ready.

There is a small small chance, but be ready with an alternative.

I am sorry.

And I will do my best to post multiple times per day.

This scenario is like moving two tons in a one ton truck.
I imagine it would feel rushed in a normal slot.

We're two months in and it seems like we're just past the midpoint, since we still have both boats to deal with.

There are some very cool RP opportunities, and chances for creative approaches to the problems, which I think would probably go more quickly in a tabletop format.

I am sorry that you think this is running too slow.

If it matters, all of the games that I am in (including this, and playing in 3) from Outpost are running long.

It has been my experience that 2-4 months is not out of the ordinary for PBP games.

It's all good. I like scenarios like this, I just get ... prickly ... at times.

And I'm only playing two quests with my primary at paizo-con. Doing more ACG stuff instead.

It’s PaizoCon Online, so I have live games, I forgot to ask if we would take a break. Otherwise, you’ll probably have to bot me.

I've been posting between games myself.

I am going to continue running, just to keep the game going.

I feel like we need something of a status check.

So, I don't know if I'm over-worrying about this, but is Themolin at all concerned about Barrabalus not showing up at work over the next couple of days? Should we perhaps forge a letter from him indicating that he is ill? We do have his spellbook, to use as a template for handwriting. If not, that's fine. He seems fairly unconcerned about having a missing coworker, so I guess there's probably no reason to suspect this will cast suspicion on him.

I believe we are at the beginning of day 3, which means Themolin should continue to work on day 3 and day 4, then meet us at the Rockfish Inn on evening of Day 4. In the morning of Day 5, the remainder of us will set out for the docks to board the Merry Mayfly. Correct?

So the question is who is leaving on day 4 from Shard Cove. I believe we agree that Daffrid's husband and children should probably fill 3 of those slots. Does the giant take 2 slots?

And then the afternoon/evening of Day 4 is when we are supposed to meet Garrla, right?

Themolin does not seem nervous about that.

He clearly will do what you tell him, though he'd prefer not to go back to work. You are at the beginning of day 3, so could spend 2x8 hr shifts building stuff back at the inn.

The smaller ship leaves Shard's Cove the morning of Day 4, and you need to leave Day 5 at some time.

And, yes, you are meeting Garla the afternoon of Day 4

I'm working long days and weekends right now, so don't wait for me on anything.

Highwire is going to the boat rental place ... but can I offer the suggestion that perhaps renting the boats isn't something that needs fully roleplayed out, particularly since it seems like it wasn't built into the scenario. I am fine with just finding out if we can afford the boats and deciding out of character how we're handling things, and then fast forwarding ahead to the next day at the Cove (or other event that comes up before then).

Agreed. For whatever reason, we are at the three month mark.

I apologize for not being engaged. I've started some classes and forget to check in here.

I agree we should skip things that can happen "off screen."

My Athletics is +3, though I am Trained. The door stunt was a natural 20. ;)

Better to be lucky than good!

If the water is perfectly clear and we're able to see the crystal clusters, shouldn't Tanaka have been able to steer around them? It seems like they just popped up out of nowhere.

The crystals are hazards... in this care they are clear crystals, and are hidden in the water. Because of the type, they require a seek action to be seen in combat.

That's why I stopped Tanaka at the point that I did. You do not know where others are... but you can take seek actions to see if your path ahead is clear.

I understand now, thank you!

Noted. I shall plan a seek action on my next turn as well.

Three failures is enough? Or could Tanaka tip the balance back in our favor?

No, unfortunately, even with a critical success, he cannot do enough.

Please double check your reporting info, and I will be getting chronicles out this weekend!

Ahh, so this one ends on a skill challenge... interesting.

Everything from those early posts is accurate.

Everything is as accurate now as I can make it :)

Checked, everything seems OK.

I have decided to switch Highwire over to Horizon Hunters. Also, I'm going to do some rebuild on Highwire, so won't be doing any purchasing on the first chronicle.

Player Name: Andrew Jones
Character Name: Highwire
OPF #: 108452-2004
Faction: Horizon Hunters
Starting XP: 0
Starting Gold: 15

Starting Reputation by Faction: 0
Starting Fame: 0

My Day Job roll of Circus Lore was a total of 5 ... :(

Thanks for the game!